Testing 6.5 Swede HV loading with shotgun filler

[Larry Gibson]

Hello all

I am starting this thread to address the tests I am conducting with the 6.5x55 Swede cartridge with cast bullets shot at high velocity (2200 – 2300+ fps) using medium and slow burning powders with a shotgun buffer filler. It has been posted that excellent accuracy can be obtained with this cartridge and it’s fast twist barrel in that high Velocity (HV) range. It is also stated by those who developed this technique that it is dangerous as high pressures can result if the loader doesn’t know what he is doing. These tests I have and am going to be conducting are because I am interested in such HV loads in the 6.5 Swede and I have the mechanism (an Oehler M43 PBL) to measure velocity, muzzle velocity, downrange velocity (100 yards), Ballistic Coefficients, MAPs (Maximum Average Pressure), and can record the time/pressure trace. The objective is two fold; first to develop accurate (minimal 1 ½ moa in capable rifles) HV (22-2300+ fps) cast bullets loads in issue milsurp 6.5x55 Swede barrels using the described technique with shotgun buffer as a filler. Second is to determine if dangerous pressures do happen and where they happen.

I will conduct numerous tests over the next several months. I have already conducted the first test. As the tests are done other sub-tests will be done along the way to give data or reach a conclusion on a point. Observations on what is working and what is not working will be obvious through the group size, the velocity and the pressure data. On the two main objectives (can the claimed accuracy really be had by other cast bullet shooters and is this technique dangerous) I will not make any conclusion until I have completed all of the tests. I would ask that all of you do not reach any conclusions before then also.

Obviously this thread is a different track from starmetal’s “Milk Jug” thread. As such I am asking everyone to ask pertinent questions or make pertinent remarks. However lets just let the results of the tests and the data speak for themselves. Derogatory remarks and/or criticism without an explicit constructive answer to the criticism are not wanted. We want to progress here in as straight forward manner as we can. That means we must all cooperate toward this goal. If you can not do that then please don’t post. You are always open to start your own thread and criticize and complain to your hearts content there. Here we are trying to accomplish something in a meaningful way so please assist if you can.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

This is the first test completed so far.

6.5 Swede HV; Test 1

I completed the first test of the 6.5 Swede with HV (High Velocity) cast bullet loads using a shotgun buffer as filler. The results while not satisfying were none the less interesting and informative. They will lead to additional testing to be conducted soon. The test rifle is a Mexican SR M98 action that I put a new, in the white milsurp M38 Swede barrel on. The headspace is very tight with factory 6.5x55 ammunition giving a “crush” fit when the bolt is closed. The action is bedded in a Fajen sporter stock with the first couple inches of the barrel bedded. The trigger is smoothed and is a crisp 2 ½ lb pull. The scope is a Tasco World Class 3x9x50 and is set on 9X for the testing. The rifle shoots factory ammo into less than 2 moa for 10 shot strings. With reloads using Sierra or Hornady bullets moa 10 shot groups are common.

The velocity and pressure tests were done with an Oehler M43 PBL. The start screen was 15” from the muzzle. Testing was done at the Tacoma Rifle and revolver Club’s main range. There are very solid cement benches there and I set the M43 up in the same location each time I test there. The set up is also checked by shooting a test string with a test rifle and a known consistent lot of ammunition (referred to a “reference ammunition”). I use a .308W bolt action I have just for this purpose and a specific lot of M118SB that I have obtained. The pre-test check with the test rifle and reference ammunition was well within expected variation so I began the 6.5 tests.

Test conditions; it was an overcast day with no wind to speak of. It was 40 degrees F during the test. Test target was at 100 yards. A front and rear rest were used.

Test loads; I followed 45 2.1’s instructions with the bullets, and equipment I have. I will list here his instructions in italics and under each instruction mention what I did in bold. Also I wish 45 2.1 and starmetal to understand that I am not criticizing anything here. I am only reporting what I’ve done in relation to their instructions, previous statements and claims. My assumption is to take everything at face value and work diligently at getting the same level of accuracy at 2200 fps or so in the 6.5 Swede with 7.9” twist. My testing is far from over so again; I am not criticizing, only reporting and learning.

•The correct (easiest to use, not the only one suitable to use) filler is the Ballistic Products: BP Original design buffer. Be sure it has not been changed from its original properties, i.e. it will NOT flow thru a funnel without help and clumps together when piled up.

I did not have the correct filler as what I got was based on what I had gleaned/guessed at from previous posts/threads and from some PM information. I have BPI’s #47 buffer. It is a plastic buffer and does not flow through a funnel exactly as 45 2.1 describes. In a private conversation with starmetal he had not tried #47 either and was anxious to see if it performed. I conducted this initial test with the #47. I have some of the “original” on order to test when it arrives. If the #47 is not successful at least I will have some load data with several powders to narrow down the test parameters with the original buffer when I get it.

•This filler is not a Do-All in that it has a specific purpose in this and other smaller capacity cartridges. Its purposes are to reduce the cartridge capacity in which it does these things: helps the slow burning powder to achieve it initial ignition pressure by bridging in the case neck/shoulder area thereby increasing initial pressure so that the powder burns very uniformly and evenly; keeps any powder gas off the boolit base along with stopping any gas cutting; compacts into a plastic solid mass which acts as a shock absorber and provides even pressure around the boolit base. After the boolit starts moving the filler plug moves into the neck out of the case thereby increasing case capacity again lowering the pressure buildup. This keeps the pressure lower than any other method I’ve found.

I did not find any evidence that #47 was “compact(ing) into a plastic solid mass”. With all loads tested there was a large “puff” of the filler between the muzzle and the start screen with each shot. Even at the maximum load I stopped at which had 41,600 psi there was no indication the filler was compacting into a solid mass. It may prove different with other powders or with “original” filler, we shall see in future tests. The #47 filler also allows the two powders tested to burn uniformly and evenly.

•To load the Swede correctly, you need to do the previously talked about things such as: reforming military thick necked 30-06 brass along with turning the case neck to 0.001” loaded case chamber clearance, a throat sized cast boolit that fits your rifle, a centered fired formed case, etc. These have been covered in detail before and can be found in the archives.

The brass is well fire formed and necks are trued. Primers used were Remington 9 1/2s. The bullet is a 266455 that drops at .267-.268 when cast of WW/lead 50/50 alloy. The test barrel is .266 in the grooves. The throat is also .266 and an unsized .267 bullet gets shoved back into the case by the chamber throat. I seat the GCs first, then push them nose first into the .266 H die in the 450. The bullets are then lubed in the same .266 H die with LBT Soft Blue lube. The bullet fully dressed weighs right at 130 gr and looks exactly like the one starmetal posted that he got from 45 2.1.

•To actually load the cartridge involves simple hand loading methods. You need dies which will accept the somewhat (0.268”+) boolit. Several die sets will not until altered. You also need a neck expander about 0.001" below your boolit diameter to expand and flare the neck with. It also helps with some powders to taper crimp the case neck lightly.

The case necks are sized in a Redding bushing die giving .001 - .002” tension on the bullets. The bullets are seated so the front driving band is just off the lande. This puts the Top of the GC right at the base of the neck. I use a 7x57 die to seat the over sized bullets. A check on concentricity shows minimal runout (close to the best I get with cast bullets which is .001 - .004”. I did not crimp any of the loads and will include that in the next test.

•Powder selection is fairly simple; you pick a slow for the cartridge powder. That is one which is probably one speed (or more) slower than what is shown in the jacketed data shown for the boolit weight you have. IMR 4350 and AA3100 both work here.

I used 4895 for 3 of the test loads as starmetal had successfully used that in his 6.5MS. The test loads with 4895 were 26, 28 and 30 gr. I then loaded 9 five shot test strings with AA4350 starting at 31 gr. I chose 31 gr because that is what starmetal said was the load on the first 6.5 Swede groups he posted. My test loads went; 31, 33, 36, 38, 40, 42, 44, 46 and 48 gr.

How much powder do you use? Fill the fire formed sized case up to within a dimes thickness of where the body meets the shoulder of the case. Measure that amount and check it against the loading data you have looked at. It should be on the low side of published data, at least for the powders shown. This is where you adjust the load varying the powder charge from that point up to the base of the shoulder.

•How much filler do you use? Conventional wisdom says to fill it to the top of the case neck. If you do this you will NOT get a decent group. This filler DOES NOT like being compressed much. What you do is fill the case to the point where it will compress the thickness of a gas check (that will be just slightly into the base of the neck). You will want to tap the case head a couple of times at this point to make sure it is filled to that point. Seat the boolit and taper crimp slightly.

I filled a case with 4350 as per the instructions and weighed that amount. I then adjusted a Lee powder thrower to throw that weight charge which was 52 gr. Noting the CC amount per the Lee scale I divided that into the powder weight which gave me a constant for how much volume 1 gr of powder was taking in the CC scale of the Lee powder measure. Then I adjusted the Lee to thrown the starting load. Subtracting the reading on the Lee scale for that starting load from the full case reading gave me the volume of filler needed to fill the case with filler. As I adjusted the powder charge up I multiplied the constant times the powder weight and subtracted that from the first filler volume. I found that due to settling of the filler I had to add a tudge to the filler volume. I set up 2 powder throwers; the first was a Lyman 55 to throw the powder and the second was the Lee to throw the filler. It sounds a lot more complicated than it was and I have to admit using 45 2.1 and starmetals names in vain for getting me into such a mess However I soon got the hang of making the adjustments and it went pretty smoothly. I did have to lightly rap the drum screw of the Lee thrower to get the filler to settle evenly into the extension. On the down stroke I also had rap the drum screw about 5-6 times to get the filler to drop into the case.

•This is not dangerous if you have some wits about you, BUT I will not assume any responsibility for what you do either. This cartridge is graduate/PHD level on how to make it work and get it to shoot at jacketed accuracy and velocity, which it will do easily if you know what you’re doing.
•You will have to make adjustments in those powder/filler levels to achieve this. There is a learning curve here. The best way is to post your group pictures along with what you did. The group size and shape will tell what needs to be done.
It definitely took some thinking on getting the right way to make powder and filler amounts come out to 100% density. Once I figured out how to do it with the Lee thrower it was relatively easy.
•You got any questions, then ask because Joe went thru this for awhile before he caught on to how it is properly done.

What taper crimp die are you using 45 2.1?

So with the afore mentioned loads and equipment I was off to the range to test. As stated I had everything set up and did a reference check to ensure all was set and that the M43 was giving proper readings. Now to the “Good, the Bad and the Ugly”;-0

I ran the 4895 test first.

26 gr 4895; produced the best accuracy of any load including the AA4350 loads. Group size was right at 2.2”. Velocity was 2085 fps, SD was 22 and the ES was 56. The MAP was 37,200 psi, the SD 1,300 and the ES 3,300. Bolt lift and extraction were easy.

28 gr 4895; velocity was 2168 fps, SD was 13 and the ES was 29. The MAP was 41,600 psi, the SD was 1,100 and the ES was 2,800. No sign of hard bolt lift.

30 gr 4895; velocity was 2236 fps, SD was 17 and the ES was 40. The MAP was 45,300 psi, SD was 700 and the ES was 1,200. Two of the shots gave hard bolt lift. Both of those shots gave the same puff of filler at the muzzle as the other shots. There was no sign of pressure with any of those shots. Primers were very nicely rounded.

I then tested the AA4350 loads;

31 gr AA4350; velocity was 1965 fps, SD was 22 and the ES was 45. The MAPwas30,500 psi, SD was 800 and the ES was 1,600. No sign of hard bolt lift.

33 gr AA4350; velocity was 2047 fps, SD was 7 and the ES was 14. The MAP was 31,900 psi, SD was 1,100 and the ES was 20. No hard bolt lift.

36 gr AA4350; velocity was 2167 fps, SD was 6 and the ES 17. The MAP was 36,100 psi, the SD 700 and the ES 1,600. No hard bolt lift.

38 gr AA4350; velocity was 2252 fps, SD was 24 and ES was 62. The MAP was 39,200 psi, SD 800 and the ES 1,600. There was a bit of hard bolt lift on all of the shots. There were no signs of pressure.

40 gr AA4350; velocity was 2340 fps, SD was 20 and the ES 52. The MAP was 41,600 psi, SD 10,00 and the ES 2,300. There was absolutely no bolt lift problem with any of the shots(?). There were no pressure signs.

I am at a loss to explain the bolt lift problems at some points yet at a higher pressure there are no bolt lift problems. There was no indication of excessive pressure at any times. The time pressure traces, the time under the pressure curve and the duration of the pressure curve showed no indication of any pressure spikes. The puff of filler between the muzzle and start screen was consistent and always present. I’m sure there is a reason but I can’t think of it yet.

There you have the Good and the Bad. The ugly is that accuracy for all the loads except the first 4895 load loads ran 4-6” until the last group with 40 gr of AA 4350 where only 3 shots stayed on the rather large target. I did not test the last 3 test strings because of the total loss of anything remotely that could be described as accuracy from a rifle barrel. Perhaps a shotgun barrel pattern would fit the description but not accuracy from a rifle.

I shall revisit the 4895 loads with a harder bullet and different lube. I will also try 3100, H4831SC and RL22. With those slower powders I will start at 31 gr and work up to 40 gr. That is the plan and the test continues.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

There was some discusion as to the suitability of the Mex SR with the milsurp 6.5 Swede M38 barrel as being a "true test" of the 6.5 Swede. Well it is a factory milsurp 6.5 Swede replacement barrel. It has the original chamber (finished) and is at minimum headspace. How it being on a different action affects the outcome of velocity, pressure and accuracy is confusing to me. However, to placate those who think otherwise I also have a M38 and will conduct tests with it. To this effect one of the next tests will be a comparative test between the two rifles (the Mex Swede and the M38) to determine if there is a real difference. If there is I will use the M38 for the remainder of the tests. However, if it proves out there is no substantial differnce between the rifles then does it matter if I use the Mex Swede?

Lets address some specific issues;

Powders; The next test will be with 4895, AA4350, H4831SC, and possibly RL22 with various charges using a 3/4 gr dacron filler in. These should give the expected velocity (22-2300+ fps) so we can have past loads to compare those with the "original" shotgun buffer filler with.

Filler; the first test was conducted with BPI's #47 buffer. Apparently this was not the "right" filler . I have ordered some "Original" shotgun buffer from BPI which is supposed to be the "right" filler. I will use "Original" filler in subsequent tests.

Cases; The cases I will use for the majority of tests are from reformed U42 '06 milsurp cases. They are well fire formed to the particular rifle's chamber. The necks of these cases allow for a .266 bullet to have a .0005 - .001 neck clearence in the front half of the tapered 6.5 chamber neck. I have found that if the case is crimped under a driving band then a .268 bullet can be chambered. However the front of the tapered throat sizes the front 2 driving bands down to .2665. That is about as "perfect" a fit as one is going to get.

Neck sizing; the necks of the cases will be sized in a Redding bushing die with an appropriate size bushing to give .001 - .002 neck tension on the bullets. I may swtch to using my Lee Collet sizer as more of you probably have that than have a Redding Bushing die. With either it is easy to adjust the amount of neck tension and I see little difference between the use of either.

Primers My past test of different primers with HV loads shows little difference if the load is worked up with one specific primer. I started the tests with Remington 9 1/2s as that is considered a "gentle" primer. I may switch to Wolf primers since starmetal was using those though.

Lubes; The 1st test was done using LBT Blue Soft lube because that is what starmetal used with his first posted "bug hole" groups with the 6.5 Swede at 2250 or so fps. Numerous of you have PM'd me stating the LBT lube doesn't work well in cold weather. Starmetal is now using his own soap lube so apparently a good lube will do. I do one more test with the LBT lube and if it doesn't work out I'll switch to Javelina and Carnauba Red as both of them work well in the cooler temperatures I'm testing at this time of year.

GCs: I intend to use Hornady GCs with the exception of starmetals home made aluminum ones that will be on the bullets he is sending me to test. The GCs will be preseated prior to sizing.

Sizing the cast bullets I use will be sized and lubed at .268 hopefully with a sizer that is being loaned to me.

Cast Bullets; I will continue with 266455 until I have hit the target velocity range of 2200 - 2300 + fps with the various powders. I will then test the Kurz GB bullet and the bullet starmetal is sending me with those target powder charges.

Alloys; the 1st tests 266455s were cast of 50/50 WW/lead alloy as that was the alloy of the first "bug hole" groups starmetal shot with his 6.5 Swede. I will further test that alloy but will probably switch to an alloy that is ductile at 18 BHN.

Seating and crimping. I checked with Lee as per 45 2.1 and they only offered their factory crimp die. Starmetal uses the LFCD but 45 2.1 uses a Lee taper crimp die which is not available. To solve the problem I took the collet out of the Hornady die and honed it out so it will seat .268 bullets. I also beveled off the roll crimp to a taper crimp. A couple test dummy loads show a very nice taper crimp. I will now be using the Hornady seater and taper crimping under a driving band so the .268 bullets can be seated in the .265 throat.

Testing; the testing will be done at the same loacation as in test #1. The targets will be at 100 yards. All velocities and data will be collected using the M43 PBL. If sufficient accuracy is obtained I will place screens at 100 yards and measure the BCs of the bullets.

There's a rough idea of where the tests are heading. Any constructive suggestions would be appreciated.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

Larry Gibson, first I would like to thank you for all your efforts. I have been following it on the milk jug thread and I am interested in this to use any data for my 260 Rem with SAECO #264-140gr. One challenge that you have is the 1-7.9" twist in your swede vs 1-9" twist in my 260 Rem.

[Larry Gibson]

Doc

Thank you and I will be posting all the information I obtain. There definately is more of a challenge with the faster twist 6.5 Swede. I could easily get very good accuracy with the 266455 at 1850-1900 fps out of my own 9" twist 6.5-308. However, a couple say it can be done at even higher velocity with the faster twist 6.5 Swede and I really do hope so. I would indeed like to shoot a 130-140 gr cast bullet at 2200+ fps in the Swede if at all possible. The RPM threshold (another topic and one I do not want to get into here, at least during the tests) says accomplishing accuracy at HV in the fast twist Swede shouldn't be done easily. This 'technique" is obviously not "easy". The testing will demonstrate whether accuracy at HV can be done and what are the "dangerous" parmeters. I am remaining optomistic.

Larry Gibson

[dubber123]

I'm looking forward to your results. I'm sure your test will be comprehensive regardless of the outcome.

[Bret4207]

Larry, your PM box is full. Got some info that may help you.

[Larry Gibson]

Bret

I've been getting a lot of PMs lately, probably no surprise. I cleaned some out so send the info please.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

Don't have the right to say this considering I'm not the one doing the testing but since there's been nothing but secrets since day one with this stuff can we try to keep the PMs to a minimum if it pertains to the tests. If we start with the back room discussions right off the bat the whole point of the endeavor is lost in my humble opinion. Transparency should be first and foremost from here on out.

Also if you're interested Larry I can include a stick of Lars BAC Special Blend and 2500+ and a stick of Voodoo Red in the package with the brass and sizer if you want to spend time chasing lubes. As for LBT I have to agree it does have it's problems in cold weather but I've found for the most part it's a quantity over quality issue. I can get away with shooting my 30x47 at 2600 fps with just the space over the gas check filled when the temperature starts dipping down.

Another thing I think should be mentioned in a project like this is that if it's a pure hunting load you're looking for don't discount the advantages of weight over speed. If it's a target load you're looking for don't discount BC over speed. A 170 gr bullet at 1700 fps just might be a better killer than a 130 gr bullet at 2200 and might prove it's equal, or better it, on the target range. The increased sectional density and BC go a long way in both penetration in game and performance at the range.

My 2 cents on the subject and if there's anything I can do to help you put this puppy to bed let me know.

[Doc Highwall]

Larry, a question on the gas checks, did you anneal them or are they use as purchased. I found I had to anneal my 30 cal Hornady gas checks to get the best accuracy.

[largom]

Would be interested in knowing the hardness of your 50/50 WW/Pb alloy and the tester used. Also, how long have the boolits aged after casting?

Larry, I just received [after waiting 9 months] the Lee 6.5 Swede special order mold from Midsouth. I do not know what the mold drops at, have not cast with it yet. If you wanted to test this boolit I would gladly send you the mold.

Larry Miller

[Larry Gibson]

Pat I.

Don't have the right to say this considering I'm not the one doing the testing but since there's been nothing but secrets since day one with this stuff can we try to keep the PMs to a minimum if it pertains to the tests. If we start with the back room discussions right off the bat the whole point of the endeavor is lost in my humble opinion. Transparency should be first and foremost from here on out.

I can guarentee I will post everything I do and all of the results good, bad or indifferent. There will be nothing mysterious or secret about what I test. I will provide as much detail as I can. If someone wants to mention or suggest something in a PM I am open to that and will openly incorporate it into the tests posting what the change or suggestion was, if it is pertinant.

Also if you're interested Larry I can include a stick of Lars BAC Special Blend and 2500+ and a stick of Voodoo Red in the package with the brass and sizer if you want to spend time chasing lubes. As for LBT I have to agree it does have it's problems in cold weather but I've found for the most part it's a quantity over quality issue. I can get away with shooting my 30x47 at 2600 fps with just the space over the gas check filled when the temperature starts dipping down.

I've already got the BAC and 2500+ and am going to try Javelina and Carnauba REd both of which perform well in the winter/spring temperatures here. If I do end up chasing lubes (not really in the plan right now as I've done that before and found a good lube is a good lube) the Voodoo Red might be worth a try. What is in the plan, if an acurate load in the velocity range is found, is to vary the amount of lube on the bullets to see how that might effect accuracy.

Another thing I think should be mentioned in a project like this is that if it's a pure hunting load you're looking for don't discount the advantages of weight over speed. If it's a target load you're looking for don't discount BC over speed. A 170 gr bullet at 1700 fps just might be a better killer than a 130 gr bullet at 2200 and might prove it's equal, or better it, on the target range. The increased sectional density and BC go a long way in both penetration in game and performance at the range.

I am not looking for a hunting load, I've many others (especially the .35 Remington:-) ) that work very well. I am looking for accuracy out to 300 yards for milsurp matches but mostly this is just a very interesting test/challenge of cast bullet loading and shooting skills. Other than "I want to to do it if it can be done" and the learning of new information and passing that on I've not other reasons.

My 2 cents on the subject and if there's anything I can do to help you put this puppy to bed let me know.

Just stay tuned and keep the good advise coming. I am not one to think I can see every angle so the more of us that are actively involved the better.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, a question on the gas checks, did you anneal them or are they use as purchased. I found I had to anneal my 30 cal Hornady gas checks to get the best accuracy.

Doc

No I did not anneal them There was no mention of that in the "technique" listed. Actually the use of home made GCs of aluminum was used. The user made no mention of annealing them that I am aware. If it was mentioned then we will go in that direct, might just go that way down the line. Right now I'm trying to avoid being "random" and not following the "technique". If the "technique" does not show us the accuracy potential claimed we will tweek it here and there. Annealed GCs are probably one of the "tweeks" to try. Remind me when we get to that point okay?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Would be interested in knowing the hardness of your 50/50 WW/Pb alloy and the tester used. Also, how long have the boolits aged after casting?

Larry, I just received [after waiting 9 months] the Lee 6.5 Swede special order mold from Midsouth. I do not know what the mold drops at, have not cast with it yet. If you wanted to test this boolit I would gladly send you the mold.

Larry Miller

Larry Miller

The BHN runs 12-14 on the ingets using the ball bearing indentaion method.

The bullets were cast several months ago, perhaps 5-6 months. I did not GC and lube them until just before I loaded them.

Is it the "Kurz" bullet? If so I have a mould coming. If it is another design I Definately would like to cast some bullets with it. If the 266455, starmetals bullets (the BaBore diesign) and "Kurz" bullets do not give results then I would definatel test yours. Probably would test it anyway if we get the required accuracy at the 2200+ fps goal. I'll PM my address if you do send it.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

Larry if you go back and reread the thread it was 2300+ fps.

[6.5 mike]

Larry, I'll be watching with great interest from the sidelines. Nice to have you back. mike

[heathydee]

Right back on page 24 of the Military Rifles forum I posted about my experience with a M38 Swedish Mauser and the use of fillers . The thread is entitled "Swedish Mauser". I have used shotshell filler for years after reading an article by a gentleman by the name of Dave Scovill in the 1990 Cast Bullet Annual . Velocities over 2100fps have been achieved with reasonable accuracy ; good enough for hunting anyway. I posted a picture of a target on the thread but in all honesty I would not bet money on being able to duplicate the results tomorrow . I have had some new brass on order for a while now and when it arrives intend to do a couple more tests.

[geargnasher]

Larry, thanks for doing all this. If I can help in any way please let me know. :drinks:

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Larry if you go back and reread the thread it was 2300+ fps.

I know but there have been several velocities bantered around. The original was around 2250 fps as was the last in the chronograph photo that was supposed to be "the load". As in test #1 I will exceed the target velocity of 22-2300 fps by a bit with whichever powder seems to be working to determine if and where pressure might become a problem. Heck I'd be more than happy with consitent 10 shot groups of 1 1/2" moa at 23-2400 fps or higher. We'll see when we get up there, eh?

Larry Gibson

[largom]

I think a lot of shooters are very interested in these tests and we all will benifit from the results. Larry Gibson will also use up a lot of primers, powder, alloy, and time in conducting these tests. I for one would be willing to contribute some $ to help Larry with his expenditures. What say the rest of you?

Larry Miller

[Larry Gibson]

heathydee

What is 2209 powder in the US?

Larry Gibson

[felix]

4350 = 2209; 4831 = 2213 ... felix

[PAT303]

heathydee

What is 2209 powder in the US?

Larry Gibson

Larry chase me up if you need info on Oz made Hodgden powder.I'm starting my loading next week and will post up my results even though mine has an Oz made barrel.Good work mate. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

Larry chase me up if you need info on Oz made Hodgden powder.I'm starting my loading next week and will post up my results even though mine has an Oz made barrel.Good work mate. Pat

Will do, I've always a fondness for you Aussies. I spent a wonderful month out Freemantle way during a Dark Signet exercise with your SAS back in the '80s. The America's Cup race was warming up and it sure was a party town. Put away a lot of p*ss down at the Sail and Anchor:-) I also had the pleasure of working with 1RAR when they were based with the 173rd Airborne Brigade at Bien Hoa in Vietnam, not exactly a party but a pleasure at any rate.

Larry Gibson

[JesterGrin_1]

First I have to say I do not have a Swede rifle of any kind. But the info will be very interesting and I feel it may help with other calibers as well. So I will be watching to learn what I can.

I can also say I did try and read the Milk Jug thread but to be honest there was not much there through all of the reading just pm this pm that talked to this person and that person but no real info. If there was then it was removed or something.

So as a few others said please by all means post the results and how you got them in the open and if need be please post warnings as well. :)

Happy Shooting

[Larry Gibson]

Jester Grin 1

You can be assured I will post any warnings with regard to pressures being excessive or spiking. The M43 is very good at measuring both. The "dangerous" factor to this "technique" was much discussed and cussed so it is one of the two reasons/objectives of this test(s). I will do my best to determine if there is a danger, where it lies and how to avoid it. Everyone here will be privy to what I find out because I will hold nothing back.

Larry Gibson

[JesterGrin_1]

Thank You Larry. Good Luck and be safe.

[dualsport]

Another very interested reader. Your request to stick to the facts, nuts and bolts kinda thing is a great idea. Good luck with the project.

[StarMetal]

Amazing how Larry has become the authority on this when he hasn't ever done it and all of you flock to him like fools. I will be posting more on this in full detail with photo's. The original velocity was near the 2300 fps mark and the last pics showing the difference with between the 4350 load with buffer and without buffer was fired at 40 degrees like Larry did in his first failed test. The load was originally fired in summer temperature. As you could see the colder temperature brought it down some. Larry may think he has intercepted the pass and is running for a touch down, but he is not. Stay tuned for the correct loading procedure with the correct products not fabricated by someone who's never done this. If anyone wants tutored on this feel free to pm me.

His 50/50 alloy BHN readings are way off from 45 2.1's. Also if the throat of his barrel sizes a .268 bullet down to that .266 figure he said, then there is something the matter there and that is wrong. All the test I've done were with non annealed aluminum gas checks. You don't have to get anal about primers or gas checks, but you must have decent lube. LBT is very good, as is the soap lube I developed. Many of Lar's lubes would appear to work well. One thing to remember about switching lubes is give your barrel enough shots to season out to the new lube. A word about the buffer.....do not use it in anything above 7.7 Jap. It becomes lot's more dangerous because of the pressure. You just saw in the test I did between buffered and non buffered in the Swede was nearly 250 fps faster with the buffer. If you insist on using a poly buffer in the larger calibers use the other type that flow like liquid through the powder measure and start off safe. One more thing about the bullet fit to the chamber. You do not engrave the nose of the bullet into the rifling. You don't crush fit the bullet into the throat. You want the bullet to just kiss the forcing cone as the bolt finally cams down. If your bullet is getting sized down by the throat that is entirely wrong. I have no idea why Larry would want to use the Norma brass as it's a guaranteed setup of failure as the necks are too thing compared to the correct military cases. I'm not saying that he is, but another member is sending him some. I don't know if Larry uses the Scotch tape method to center the rear of the 06 brass so it doesn't have to be indexed different with multiple firing to swell evenly around the head, but it was mentioned that both 45 2.1 did. If you just fire form the 06 brass one time and then use it then it's wrong and won't work correctly.

Like I said I'll be showing pic's of cut away correctly loaded cases showing the powder/buffer relationship clearly. You don't have to shoot all these different powder loads if I tell you were about to start with the 4350. I can tell you that for the 6.5MS for 4895 if you have one of those to shoot. I didn't wring out the 4895 in the Swede as the powder capacity is just a little larger then the 6.5MS and because it's a faster powder it hits the bullet harder and also because the pressure will be much higher. If you try to go the other route and use less 4895 and fill the space with the buffer you are inviting trouble. I'll be ringing out AA3100 and H4831SC when Wideners gets it in. Think about it, name the things that are going to give you hard bolt lift. Larry got that and hasn't a clue to why it happen. Pressure high pressure is the number one villian. Dutch names another being case neck too long and mouth crimping down on the bullet. Like I said, Larry didn't develop this and knows not what he is doing, but has eloquent penmanship to sway you.

I will ignore posts asking questions of what tools I measured things with, or what methods I went about measurements. I mean what do I have to do, sent things out to be measured by the NASA engineers so that it's accepted here. Also I'm not posting pictures of targets or chrono readings unless it absolutely is necessary for for some reason. 45 2.1 and I have done this. This is not a test by Larry to prove we didn't or that I lied, but a test to prove that he can do it. Remember it started with shooting a milk jug and then members wanted to know how to load to do it. Larry being among the most ardent about learning it. If you're want to learn how to drive a NASCAR race car are you going to ask the person that done that or you going to ask Larry Gibson?

I'll answer anyone's pm, including Tpr Brets :smile: (is true, not too good to be true Bret, about questions on doing this. The pressure curves and pressures aren't important at this moment as I will not lead you astray into dangerous areas. I noticed a good many of Larry's 4350 loads exceeded maximum loads for jacketed Swede loads. Coupled with buffer I'm surprised real bad things didn't happen.

Joe

[PAT303]

The reason for people going Larrys way is because people like to be treated as people,they don't like it when people boast about results and then get told they are too stupid to do the same.It doesn't matter if Larry's way is wrong or right the information will be printed worts and all and no doubt we will get there and learn along the way.Joe,lastly just because your rifle shoot small groups that doesn't mean all of them will,condition of the rifle and skill of the operator play a big part,remember you left the last thread and removed your posts,we are here to learn,remember that if you plan to stay. Pat

[Bret4207]

Don't have the right to say this considering I'm not the one doing the testing but since there's been nothing but secrets since day one with this stuff can we try to keep the PMs to a minimum if it pertains to the tests. If we start with the back room discussions right off the bat the whole point of the endeavor is lost in my humble opinion. Transparency should be first and foremost from here on out.

.

Pat, no offense intended, but these are edited PM's between myself and other members that I'm passing on. Just general info on this subject that may help Larry. If he chooses to pass on that info in an altered form that's fine, but I'm not going to completely violate a trust between myself and someone else in that manner. It's not secret since everything I know has pretty much been outlined in post 204- http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61499&page=11

[Bret4207]

Amazing how Larry has become the authority on this when he hasn't ever done it and all of you flock to him like fools.


I'll answer anyone's pm, including Tpr Brets :smile: (is true, not too good to be true Bret, about questions on doing this. The pressure curves and pressures aren't important at this moment as I will not lead you astray into dangerous areas. I noticed a good many of Larry's 4350 loads exceeded maximum loads for jacketed Swede loads. Coupled with buffer I'm surprised real bad things didn't happen.

Joe

Joe- you need to step back a bit and let this proceed. Name calling won't help and I've already seen what appear to be unsafe loads being recommended as safe in other posts and pm's. If you want to help this then it's time to cowboy up and help. Pulling your posts and whatnot just make it look....not so good. I think 45 2.1 can do what he says, I'm fairly sure you can. Now someone else is trying it and he has the equipment to test it. Lets see what happens. If you can steer him right then by all means, please do.

[Pat I.]

Sorry Bret no offense taken and hope none given. I just didn't want this to turn into the same thing it has been for the last who knows how many years with secret recipes and secret shooters. I think if the adults take over this could be a fun and interesting project for everyone. Plus besides Larry we all get to be back seat drivers. :smile:

So with that said I'll get myself comfy and wait for Larry to carry on.

[Willbird]

Larry, I have but one suggestion. I would MARK your cartridge cases, as you are shooting groups you can see if any one case seems to constantly throw a flier. I would also compare this to the pressure readings for each shot.....maybe there are a couple funky cartridge cases in there.

I know it is completely "out there".....but I think a wilson bullet seater modified to actually guide the bullet would be a better deal than pushing the bullet in with a 7x57 die that is not guiding the bullet other than with the nose punch. None of this stuff has any impact on the PRESSURE data which is very interesting.

Bill

[Bret4207]

Sorry Bret no offense taken and hope none given. I just didn't want this to turn into the same thing it has been for the last who knows how many years with secret recipes and secret shooters. I think if the adults take over this could be a fun and interesting project for everyone. Plus besides Larry we all get to be back seat drivers. :smile:

So with that said I'll get myself comfy and wait for Larry to carry on.

We're good Pat. I just hope we can get some new views on this and that Larrys work will help the overall knowledge base. I hope it does work out and that we all benefit from it.

[StarMetal]

The reason for people going Larrys way is because people like to be treated as people,they don't like it when people boast about results and then get told they are too stupid to do the same.It doesn't matter if Larry's way is wrong or right the information will be printed worts and all and no doubt we will get there and learn along the way.Joe,lastly just because your rifle shoot small groups that doesn't mean all of them will,condition of the rifle and skill of the operator play a big part,remember you left the last thread and removed your posts,we are here to learn,remember that if you plan to stay. Pat

Pat,

Not my rifle....it's rifles....and it's 45 2.1's rifles. That is plural sir.
It does too matter if it's someone's way is wrong, someone can get hurt. Funny you say treated like people when I have been called a liar. How every step of the way was I nit picked apart by more then one member.

The important thing here is if wasn't for me how loading the Swede would have never been revealed. I was me and two behind the scenes people that coached 45 2.1 into saying yes about it. That's not bragging. The original post was just shooting the milk jug at 300 yards, not how to load the Swede. [smilie=b:

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry, I have but one suggestion. I would MARK your cartridge cases, as you are shooting groups you can see if any one case seems to constantly throw a flier. I would also compare this to the pressure readings for each shot.....maybe there are a couple funky cartridge cases in there.

I know it is completely "out there".....but I think a wilson bullet seater modified to actually guide the bullet would be a better deal than pushing the bullet in with a 7x57 die that is not guiding the bullet other than with the nose punch. None of this stuff has any impact on the PRESSURE data which is very interesting.

Bill

Willbird is dead on the bullet seater. I'll mention what I use to seat my bullets if I haven't already. I use a Forster Benchrest seater in which the bullet portion of the seater has been opened up to a slip fit over the .268 bullet. Being I'm not going to load jacketed (spit spit yuck jacketed) in my Swede it doesn't matter it's larger then .264. The Forster, in my opinion is one of the better seaters out there. For those not familiar with it, it's will resemble the Hornady system, but totally different. What looks like a sliding bullet aligner is not. It's and entire die that is like a cartridge chamber that fits the cartridge and it's spring loaded. While raising the ram the round is entirely within it and as it nears the top a bullet seating punch enters it and seats the bullet. I find myself using it for more and more of my different calibers. The 7mm die has too much slop.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Joe- you need to step back a bit and let this proceed. Name calling won't help and I've already seen what appear to be unsafe loads being recommended as safe in other posts and pm's. If you want to help this then it's time to cowboy up and help. Pulling your posts and whatnot just make it look....not so good. I think 45 2.1 can do what he says, I'm fairly sure you can. Now someone else is trying it and he has the equipment to test it. Lets see what happens. If you can steer him right then by all means, please do.

Bret,

Trying to steer him right by pointing out what he's doing wrong. Funny about the name calling because a moderator called me potential liar if Larry can't do this in a pm. Get that, my fate depends on Larry doing this or not. I also don't appreciate the remark that you believe 45 2.1 doing it but are skeptical whether I have or not....thanks pal. Why the difference? Isn't that sort of calling me a liar too?

I'll tell you one thing we do not need. We don't need all the chrome on the basic model of car. That's exactly what Larry is doing. We don't need the model and name of his chronograph each and every time he uses it. We know it's a good one. He could eliminate about half his post and say the same things he's been saying.

Now do you guys want the cut away cases to show exactly where the powder/buffer should meet or not? I can also give you the starting loads for 3100 and 4831 powders even though I haven't used them yet. Little update on the 3100 powder. I did get a few rounds off using it in the 6.5MS before I even bought the Swede, but it was with the undersized bullets from the Lyman mold that I sold so I never got a fair example of how it performed. I used most that powder up shooting the 70 grain NEI bullet in my fast twist AR15.

Joe

[Pat I.]

Here we go again. Might as well close this one right now too.

[felix]

Larry is not doing anything wrong. Why would he do that? It's Larry's way, not yours. All you can do is offer advice, and it is up to Larry to take it or leave it. Again, please leave out your emotions in your posts. ... felix

[StarMetal]

No emotions here Felix. I suppose seating a 6.5 bullet with a 7x57 seater is right? I suppose a throat that sizes bullet down from .268 to .266 is right? I suppose that when you chamber your round the bullet gets shoved back into the case is right. I suppose 48 some grains of 4350 powder and buffer (how he got it all in there I don't know) is right. Come on Felix.

Pat I...we can say the same about you also. Many don't know it as your insults are very very subtle.

Okay, let's set back and watch Larry try it.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I have but one suggestion. I would MARK your cartridge cases, as you are shooting groups you can see if any one case seems to constantly throw a flier. I would also compare this to the pressure readings for each shot.....maybe there are a couple funky cartridge cases in there.

I know it is completely "out there".....but I think a wilson bullet seater modified to actually guide the bullet would be a better deal than pushing the bullet in with a 7x57 die that is not guiding the bullet other than with the nose punch. None of this stuff has any impact on the PRESSURE data which is very interesting.

Bill

Bill

I have used these cases with normal 6.5 loads and they all perform well without throwing flyers. However, as a matter of procedure I always mark a case and check it out if I have a flyer for no apparent reason. I will also do that in these tests. However with groups in test 1 running as large as they were it's hard to tell if they were flyers as there was no real "group" as such.

I have subsequently modified a 6.5 Swede Hornady new Dimension seating die. It has the slip fit collet that guides the bullets as the are seated. I explained that in an earlier post so if you want the details they are there. Good catch on a potential problem and we were thinking alike. That is good for these tests. I also honed out the bullet portion to take a .268 bullets (the Hornady .268 j bullet is a push fit through it). After using the 7mm die I did check the concentricity of the loaded rounds and they all were within normal specs for cast using a regular die. BTW; I use Forster/Bonansa benchrest seater also for other cartridges and also the Hornady seaters. They both give loaded rounds with pretty much equal concentricity. Nice thing about the Hornady after I modified it is it will also taper crimp where the Forsster will not.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

"Okay, let's set back and watch Larry try it."


Joe

That would probably be the best course of action on your part. If I am successful you can then take all the credit because I am emulating your and 45 2.1s methods and techniques. If I fail then everyone knows you will have a hay day with me. However, the difficult part for you will be to get around is the hard data I am providing everyone since you have not had anyone else verify your claims. You've said something could be done and many of us have taken that at face value. However, if we can't do it also then you'll have to prove it in front of witnesses to verify it can be done.

Yes I have measured the chambers of all of my rifles. The 6.5 chamber measurements are as I have stated they are. The front portion of the throats do size a .268 bullet down to .2665 just as I said. I can read a micrometer and do the math. The figures and measurements I give are correct. Also the throats and chamber necks in 6.5 Swede chambers taper. You have not mentioned that and neither has 45 2.1, Concentrically turned necks and concentrically sized bullets do not thus "fit" perfectly as you would have every one believe.

I am trying to emulate your and 45 2.1s technique and methods. The first test varied from those and where I varied I said so. Accuracy wise the test was a failure, I admitted that. However from the load development and the "dangerous pressure" aspect it was not. The pressure data shows no indication of any high pressure or spikes. Flattened primers can be an indication of high pressure but not always. So is hard bolt lift always an indication of high pressure? In this case it is not as there was absolutely no measurement of high pressure and the next load which had 2 more grains of powder did not give hard bolt lift. Something besides high pressure caused the hard bolt lift. You have painted yourself into a corner claiming "dangerous high pressure". It may or may not be, let the testing find out. Nobody will criticise you (I'll be the first to defend you if they do) for mistaking the hard bolt lift as a sign of high pressure if it isn't. Let it go and just be helpful with the tests. There are numerous more tests lined up. If you'll bother to read and perhaps bother to understand what I've posted regarding that then you'll see what we're all talking about. The Norma cases are just a side bar test and have no infuence on testing your and 45 2.1s method or technique. There will be numerous tests including the bullets I'm still assuming you are sending(?).

I am not and do not claim to be an expert. If I was an expert I would already have the answers. I do not. I am seeking the answers. A little better and mor positive attitude along with some constructive help here instead of your continued degradation of me and these tests would be appreciated.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

"Okay, let's set back and watch Larry try it."


Joe

That would probably be the best course of action on your part. If I am successful you can then take all the credit because I am emulating your and 45 2.1s methods and techniques. If I fail then everyone knows you will have a hay day with me. However, the hard part for you to get around is the hard data I am providing everyone.

Yes I have measured the chambers of all of my rifles. The 6.5 chambers are as i have stated they are. The front portion of the throats do size a .268 bullet down to .2665 just as I said. I can read a micrometer and do the math. The figures and measurements are correct. Also the throats and chamber necks in 6.5 Swede chambers taper. You have not mentioned that and neither has 45 2.1, Concentrically turned necks and concentrically sized bullets do not thus "fit" perfectly as you would have every one believe.

I am trying to emulate your and 45 2.1s technique and methods. The first test varied from those and where I varied I said so. Accuracy wise the test was a failure, I admitted that. However from the load development and the "dangerous pressure" aspect it was not. The pressure data shows no indication of any high pressure or spikes. Flattened primers can be an indication of high pressure but not always. So is hard bolt lift always an indication of high pressure? In this case it is not as there was absolutely no measurement of high pressure and the next load which had 2 more grains of powder did not give hard bolt lift. Something besides high pressure caused the hard bolt lift. You have painted yourself into a corner claiming "dangerous high pressure". It may or may not be, let the testing find out. Nobody will criticise you (I'll be the first to defend you if they do) for mistaking the hard bolt lift as a sign of high pressure if it isn't. Let it go and just be helpful with the tests.

I am not and do not claim to be an expert. If I was an expert I would already have the answers. I do not. I am seeking the answers. A little better and mor positive attitude along with some constructive help here instead of your continued degradation of me and these tests would be appreciated.

Larry Gibson


Larry,

45 2.1 did mention the taper. We aren't, at least I'm not, fitting the case neck that tight to it so there is clearance. I haven't said I neck turn my necks all the way up to or into the shoulder so if you remember Felix saying the ideal fit was that part of the neck at the shoulder junctions fitting as good. Basically what I have. I didn't want to neck turn my necks as close fit as 45 2.1.

I can load my cartridges and chamber them..then extract them without the bullet sticking in the chamber...much as you have stated you've done...but they aren't getting sized down at all. That's the part you have happening that I don't understand.

On the hard bolt lift rounds I have a question. Can I assume correctly that you shot at least five of them? Whatever the count were they all hard bolt lift? Mine were. I will state that bolt lift in the older 110 Savage that I have built the 6.5MS on doesn't have the as smooth transition in camming as the my Swede does. The bolt on it required a few very hard raps with my palm to open. My primers were very flat. The corners of them were sharp. I will take a stab at why your next load of two more grains didn't have the same effect. The two more grains of powder took up the space that the buffer would have. I'll assume that you will say that you used your powder measure to correctly throw consistent charges of buffer. Then my question will be did you use the same amount of buffer through all the various powder charges/loads that you tested? If so that critical (critical in the sense of accuracy, not safety in this case) would have been changes as the compression of the buffer would have been changed. Please relate on this.

Larry, if you succeed and get the accuracy....I don't want the credit. If anyone 45 2.1 should get it. I didn't come up with this loading technique for the Swede. All I would like to hear, not just from you, but others that said this couldn't be done is "By God, is is possible, it's possible to get HV accuracy with the Swede even with high rpm". That's all. It's a really fun rifle and caliber and even more so at HV with accuracy. As you pointed out you have a use for that...those 300 yard matches and believe me when you get the load I feel you will be winning those matches.

One final note, 45 2.1 stated a position inside the case where the powder and buffer should meet. I'm sure you know my 31 grain load that worked for me is much much below that shoulder junction. In fact I have the cutaway case sitting here on my desk and if you would like to see the pic of it I'll post it. I think you and other's may be shocked at the position of it. I know 45 2.1 will be and point out some negatives about it.

I'll sit back and anxiously await your next round of testing and if you have any questions I can assist you will please ask them.

Joe

[Willbird]

Also if there was mention of how much shoulder bump is being performed on the brass before reloading I did not see it. I missed some other things so I may have missed it. Without control of shoulder bump (.002 would be ideal IMHO) then judging bolt lift will not tell you anything.

Bill

[shooter93]

Just a couple of questions here Larry...what is the accectable accuracy level you're looking for here? What accuracy level does the rifle shoot with J-bullets at your desired velocity? Are you trying to match that accuracy or just come close? Thanks. And I'm glad you're back and no...I'm not a "flocking" fool.

[Trifocals]

Larry: Apparently you are working up loads using shotshell buffer. Most of these "buffers" are "ground" plastics of some type. May I suggest you check out the PRECISION RELOADING website. They offer a spherical plastic shotshell buffer. This stuff is not ground, but instead is micro beadlets. It will not clump and flows like water. I will be keeping close tabs on your experiments. LOL :grin:

[Cap'n Morgan]

Larry,
I wonder if the hard bolt lift you noticed was caused by the filler compacting and expanding the soft shoulder/neck area of the case? It could be that you just hit the "right" balance between powder and filler and then, once the amount of powder was increased (and the amount of filler subsequently reduced) the problem went away.

[StarMetal]

F
Fellows I'm replacing that my last post with this link:

http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/1219.htm

[badgeredd]

Joe,

I have resisted making any comments about your methods or claims to date, but I find I must comment on the general tone of many of your comments. You often come off as an arrogant individual. That may be as you are or only as I interpret your remarks. You've done fairly well at sticking to the facts until someone attempts to prove out your methods, and then you say something like the below comments.



Larry,

I haven't said I neck turn my necks all the way up to or into the shoulder so if you remember Felix saying the ideal fit was that part of the neck at the shoulder junctions fitting as good. This is part of the reason people get tired of reading your posts Joe. Obviously you have NOT been forth coming with ALL of your information. Basically what I have. I didn't want to neck turn my necks as close fit as 45 2.1.

One final note, 45 2.1 stated a position inside the case where the powder and buffer should meet. I'm sure you know my 31 grain load that worked for me is much much below that shoulder junction. In fact I have the cutaway case sitting here on my desk and if you would like to see the pic of it I'll post it. I think you and other's may be shocked at the position of it. I know 45 2.1 will be and point out some negatives about it. I find it hard to understand how one can duplicate your methods when you are saying YOUR methods vary from 45 2.1's methods.

Joe

I am also interested in the tests Larry is conducting for my own knowledge. I find it hard to understand why you don't want to give up all of the facts of your technique, which you admit are not necessarily the same as 45 2.1's techniques. I am sure everyone will give credit where it is due once the tests have proceeded in an open venue.

Edd

[swheeler]

I see Heathydee was shooting tiny groups at HV with the swede about 1 1/2 years ago. He was using 30 grs of H4350 plus shotgun buffer(grex in his case) and a 150 gr cast bullet. That 2100 fps out of a 24"M38 should be about 2200 fps out of 29.1" M96. Maybe plenty to be learned from this guy also? Just a thought, he was doing it FIRST! .02

[swheeler]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=35961

CB loads/ military rifles the thread is Swedish Mauser, near the top of first page. look at targets and load data with chronoed velocity, this was SEPT 2008 posted.

[StarMetal]

I see Heathydee was shooting tiny groups at HV with the swede about 1 1/2 years ago. He was using 30 grs of H4350 plus shotgun buffer(grex in his case) and a 150 gr cast bullet. That 2100 fps out of a 24"M38 should be about 2200 fps out of 29.1" M96. Maybe plenty to be learned from this guy also? Just a thought, he was doing it FIRST! .02

Scot,

45 2.1 done it over 20-25 years ago. On this forum I'd say he was first.

[heathydee]

Thanks for the plug Swheeler but if I had to duplicate those groups today I would not bet money on being able to do it . The load shown will often throw fliers and a realistic claim for its accuracy would be about 2 to 2.5 MOA. That is good enough for my purposes and is adequate hunting accuracy although the boolit behaves like a FMJ with plenty of penetration and little expansion.

I approached the Swede with no knowledge of the problems encountered by others and was lucking in achieving a reasonable resullt without much effort.
First I cast the boolit particularly hard ;about a 50/50 wheel-weight /linotype mix . The boolits make a chinking sound if two are tapped together. Secondly a moderate load of a slow powder was chosen in an attempt to reduce the accelerative forces on the boolit and last of all shotgun filler was used to take up all the excess left in the case. I have used filler in nearly all of my cast boolit loads in 30-30 , 7.62x39 and 6.5x55 since reading an article in the 1990 Cast Bullet Annual by a gentleman who goes by the name of Dave Scovill . He claimed the fiiler acts not unlike a secondary gas-check ; protecting the boolit's base and also leaving a layer of plastic on the bore which reduces leading . I cannot prove or disprove any of his statements in the article . My testing methods are only empirical . I can state that the use of filler in my experience has never made a particular load worse and often improves it.
Kudos to Larry for the work he is doing in this thread with the aim of getting a more scientific answer to the use of fillers in general and the Swede in particular.
Regards from
Heath

[swheeler]

Heath, thanks for the reply, wow 1990! Yes, I too will be watching as this progresses, hopefully good things will emerge.

[StarMetal]

Thanks for the plug Swheeler but if I had to duplicate those groups today I would not bet money on being able to do it . The load shown will often throw fliers and a realistic claim for its accuracy would be about 2 to 2.5 MOA. That is good enough for my purposes and is adequate hunting accuracy although the boolit behaves like a FMJ with plenty of penetration and little expansion.

I approached the Swede with no knowledge of the problems encountered by others and was lucking in achieving a reasonable resullt without much effort.
First I cast the boolit particularly hard ;about a 50/50 wheel-weight /linotype mix . The boolits make a chinking sound if two are tapped together. Secondly a moderate load of a slow powder was chosen in an attempt to reduce the accelerative forces on the boolit and last of all shotgun filler was used to take up all the excess left in the case. I have used filler in nearly all of my cast boolit loads in 30-30 , 7.62x39 and 6.5x55 since reading an article in the 1990 Cast Bullet Annual by a gentleman who goes by the name of Dave Scovill . He claimed the fiiler acts not unlike a secondary gas-check ; protecting the boolit's base and also leaving a layer of plastic on the bore which reduces leading . I cannot prove or disprove any of his statements in the article . My testing methods are only empirical . I can state that the use of filler in my experience has never made a particular load worse and often improves it.
Kudos to Larry for the work he is doing in this thread with the aim of getting a more scientific answer to the use of fillers in general and the Swede in particular.
Regards from
Heath

Heath,

That's great. I more lean towards the buffer scours the bore of any fouling. If you read that forensic link I posted a few posts up you'll read some interesting things about buffer. I was surprised to learn they learn that it penetrated a cotton T-shirt of up to a distance of 20. Amazing.

Maybe with shooters like you coming forth there won't be as much doubt as to whether can and has been done.

Keep posting.

Joe

[Pat I.]

Thanks for the plug Swheeler but if I had to duplicate those groups today I would not bet money on being able to do it . The load shown will often throw fliers and a realistic claim for its accuracy would be about 2 to 2.5 MOA.

How refreshing. You Sir have my undying respect from this moment forward.

[shooter93]

+ 1 Pat. Consistency is everything, groups, groups and a few more groups.

[TCLouis]

from actual performed experiments with measured outputs I really would love to see the urination contest end and questions/results posted.

[swheeler]

from actual performed experiments with measured outputs I really would love to see the urination contest end and questions/results posted.

Ya got that right, me too.

[Bret4207]

The use of fillers goes back into the teens with cast, maybe earlier. The first I recall reading of the use of the plastic shotgun fillers was in the early 80's in Handloader. At that time IIRC it was recommended because the old standby, kapok, was getting rare.

[StarMetal]

The use of fillers goes back into the teens with cast, maybe earlier. The first I recall reading of the use of the plastic shotgun fillers was in the early 80's in Handloader. At that time IIRC it was recommended because the old standby, kapok, was getting rare.

I agree Bret, but many didn't grasp the idea and run with the shot buffer.

Here's a very good and old article by surplusrifle.com although the buffer they used is very much different then the buffer 45 2.1 and myself are using:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

Joe

[felix]

Makes no difference what POLYETHYLENE is being used, as long as it does NOT bridge either during loading or firing. That usually means a ball powder type, i.e., no spikes and not too small of a ball. Ethylene is desired because of its very low melting point as compared to other petro oriented plastics. Hard fillers can go between the boolit and case neck during firing which will dramatically reduce the neck clearance. Always remember the case neck expands before the boolit moves. Take that to the bank. ... felix

I have no proof of the matter about GREX itself, but I assume it was made by Monsanto who got out of the industrial plastics business about when Grex was discontinued. Hercules and GE produce tons of polyethylene, as well as some of the oil companies. They prolly manufacture what is needed by the shotgun industry today, and that is purely speculation on my part. I don't know where DuPont sits in this matter. ... felix

[Pat I.]

Felix, I just took a gander at some BPI Original with a 10x glass and it's just ground plastic. Not all of the pieces are the same size with some being nothing but powder and some little chips with all sizes in between. From the Precision Reloading site it says PSB is spherical. I never looked at the Grex I had so don't know if it was spherical or ground. I wouldn't bet my life on it but they're probably all made from the same material and would serve the same purpose and perform the same. Since polyethylene withstands higher impact than polypropylene that'd be my guess.

[geargnasher]

Makes no difference what POLYETHYLENE is being used, as long as it does NOT bridge either during loading or firing. That usually means a ball powder type, i.e., no spikes and not too small of a ball. Ethylene is desired because of its very low melting point as compared to other petro oriented plastics. Hard fillers can go between the boolit and case neck during firing which will dramatically reduce the neck clearance. Always remember the case neck expands before the boolit moves. Take that to the bank. ... felix

I have no proof of the matter about GREX itself, but I assume it was made by Monsanto who got out of the industrial plastics business about when Grex was discontinued. Hercules and GE produce tons of polyethylene, as well as some of the oil companies. They prolly manufacture what is needed by the shotgun industry today, and that is purely speculation on my part. I don't know where DuPont sits in this matter. ... felix

Felix, what I put in bold above has been a very serious concern of mine with ANY filler under a cast boolit in a bottlenecked case, and that is why I brought up the case neck clearance with respect to TAPER in the Milk Jug thread, it seems that the taper in a military Swedish Mauser's chamber neck would exacerbate the situation you describe greatly, unless one were to turn a taper onto the case necks to precisely match the chamber while leaving the inside a straight cylinder. But I can only imagine the heck that would play with boolit tension and resizing.

Gear

[Willbird]

Some folks have claimed that SOME fillers are polystyrene beads like are used to make styrofoam not expanded yet ? Polymeric beads they might call them ?

Bill

[heathydee]

I received my new batch of brass yesterday and have been able to both load a few up and get out to the range to do some testing . I re-visited the load I have succeeded with in the past although I could not find , in my records , the exact amount of buffer with which I topped off the powder charge. The load as follows.
Case Remington . (new)
Primer Federal Match
Powder AR2209 (H4350)-30 grains
Boolit CBE 150 gn GC
Buffer Ground polyethlyene. 1.9cc
O/L 2.972" or 75.5mm

I prepared the new cases by running them through a Lee Collet neck sizing die twice ; 180 degrees apart , and then lightly chamfered the inside of the neck with a de-burring tool.

Federal Match primers were seated .

The powder charges were all weighed with a Lee powder scale.

The shotshell buffer was dispensed with a Lee 1.9cc powder dipper.

The boolits were seated using a Lee seating die .

Lube consisted of a home-made beeswax/moly grease mix in the grooves and all exposed lead was given a coat of Lee Liquid Alox which was allowed to dry overnight .

The range conditions were 90 degrees F with a gusty crosswind .

Here is the target.

[45 2.1]

Makes no difference what POLYETHYLENE is being used, as long as it does NOT bridge either during loading or firing. You seem so sure. You really need to try all the permutations before you post something like that. In the case spec'd, it does bridge and it wasn't supposed to use a double based powder. You all need to actually do this AND achieve accurate results before you SPECULATE about what it does.........That usually means a ball powder type, i.e., no spikes and not too small of a ball. Ethylene is desired because of its very low melting point as compared to other petro oriented plastics. Hard fillers can go between the boolit and case neck during firing which will dramatically reduce the neck clearance. Always remember the case neck expands before the boolit moves. Take that to the bank. It may not when the powder gas doesn't reach it first............The buffer acts on the case forward of it along with the boolit as a unit here.... felix

[45 2.1]

and that is why I brought up the case neck clearance with respect to TAPER in the Milk Jug thread, it seems that the taper in a military Swedish Mauser's chamber neck

Considering the chamber drawings from the Dutchman don't seem to show a tapered chamber neck, someone needs to provide actual proof that it was spec'd and used in a standard military chamber.

[Pat I.]

Didn't see print could you provide a link? I think you could prove it to yourself by taking your chamber cast or slug and measuring it.

[45 2.1]

Having measured quite a few chambers, those being at least 70 years old and some over 100 years, I really think you will see some variation. Thats quite awhile for something not to wear some considering what is going on. Concrete and stone steps wear from shoe leather also. And NO, I don't really think someone in their right mind would produce something like that, or think that they would either.

Chamber print that is attributed to the Dutchman:

[Pat I.]

And NO, I don't really think someone in their right mind would produce something like that, or think that they would either.

Can't read the language but it looks like H1 and H2 are the neck diameters. 7.52/7.60 for the cartridge and 7.55/7.65 for the chamber. Ran it through a converter and it looks right.

I don't know what you mean in the above sentence. If you're talking about the idea that no one would produce a chamber with a tapered neck or body almost all of them are a far as I know. It aids in extraction.

[StarMetal]

Pat,

Depends on what cartridge drawing you look at. Here are too more, the important one is a little blurry because I had to copy it from a PDF file in an unconvential manner, but it is readable:

Joe

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/SwedeDrawing.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Unioncartridge.jpg

[scrapcan]

Here is a link thanks to Andrew375, to the 6.5x55SE cartridge and chamber drawings shown above and attributed to Dutchman. The drawing is actually CIP drawings and are documents from Finish Government, is that correct? The home page is in a language that is not in my capabilities, but looks to be from that part of the world. Also see the note that dimensions are for proof barrels. And note the statement similar to copyright notice on the drawings.

scroll down table 1 until you get to 6.5x55 SE.

http://www.poliisi.fi/intermin/images.nsf/files/AE55118F4B9B6506C2256FBE0032C6DE/$file/TABIcal.pdf

Also here is the home page to where the above document comes

http://www.poliisi.fi/

proper attribution is the correct method in these types of documents.


Chamber dimension min drawing shows
neck/shoulder junction diameter of 7.65mm (0.301 in conversion to 3 sig. digit) w/ a note of basic dimension
case mouth od diameter of 7.55 mm (0.297 in w/ conversion to 3 sig. digits) w/ a note of check for safety reasons

[felix]

I am as sure of what I stated, Bob, as I am sure your daily car started with no qualms this morning. If your car did not start as I stated herein, then you are correct. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Can't read the language but it looks like H1 and H2 are the neck diameters. 7.52/7.60 for the cartridge and 7.55/7.65 for the chamber. Ran it through a converter and it looks right.

H1 is a diameter....H2 is a tolerance that is clearly stated at the bottom left. No chamber neck mouth diameter is given which removes any doubt the neck is tapered. This is standard drafting practise and has been for a very long time. The other two drawing confirm this.

[StarMetal]

Now, this taper thing really needs not to be talked about because it is insignificant. The thing that does need talked about is how Larry's throat is sizing his bullet down from .268 to .266 or .267 during loading....not firing. Not that is significant.

Joe

[45 2.1]

I am as sure of what I stated, Bob, as I am sure your daily car started with no qualms this morning. If your car did not start as I stated herein, then you are correct. ... felix

Such logic..........you would be delighted to know I rode to work with somebody else............sooooooooooo

[swheeler]

I received my new batch of brass yesterday and have been able to both load a few up and get out to the range to do some testing . I re-visited the load I have succeeded with in the past although I could not find , in my records , the exact amount of buffer with which I topped off the powder charge. The load as follows.
Case Remington . (new)
Primer Federal Match
Powder AR2209 (H4350)-30 grains
Boolit CBE 150 gn GC
Buffer Ground polyethlyene. 1.9cc
O/L 2.972" or 75.5mm

I prepared the new cases by running them through a Lee Collet neck sizing die twice ; 180 degrees apart , and then lightly chamfered the inside of the neck with a de-burring tool.

Federal Match primers were seated .

The powder charges were all weighed with a Lee powder scale.

The shotshell buffer was dispensed with a Lee 1.9cc powder dipper.

The boolits were seated using a Lee seating die .

Lube consisted of a home-made beeswax/moly grease mix in the grooves and all exposed lead was given a coat of Lee Liquid Alox which was allowed to dry overnight .

The range conditions were 90 degrees F with a gusty crosswind .

Here is the target.

Heath not nearly as good of groups as before? maybe bore condition/seasoning and am sure wind didn't help. I see you say buffer is ground polyethelene, is this the same Grex you used before?

[StarMetal]

Heath not nearly as good of groups as before? maybe bore condition/seasoning and am sure wind didn't help. I see you say buffer is ground polyethelene, is this the same Grex you used before?

Scot,

I think it's been noted that Grex is out of existence. It was pulled from the market a long time ago and unless someone has a healthy supply of it I don't see them using it. Let's just call all of it buffer.

Joe

[Pat I.]

I think I'll stick with the CIP chamber prints instead of a couple of cartridge drawings. Just make a cast or slug and measure the necks and you'll find out it's tapered. Probably doesn't amount to a hill of beans anyway but if Person A is going to be telling Person B that the only way it will work and one of the reasons for their failure is that they didn't run 1/2 thou. per side clearance explain how they did it with the tapered neck.

[Pat I.]

H1 is a diameter....H2 is a tolerance that is clearly stated at the bottom left. No chamber neck mouth diameter is given which removes any doubt the neck is tapered. This is standard drafting practise and has been for a very long time. The other two drawing confirm this.

You've got this wrong and H1 and H2 are the diameters. All chamber prints are drawn this way. The tolerances are listed at the botom.

[45 2.1]

you've got this wrong and h1 and h2 are the diameters. All chamber prints are drawn this way. The tolerances are listed at the botom.

Well, thats as close to BS as i've heard. Maybe some real machinists and engineers can weigh in here.

[Pat I.]

Well, thats as close to BS as i've heard. Maybe some real machinists and engineers can weigh in here.

OK whatever you say.

[Pat I.]

Now, this taper thing really needs not to be talked about because it is insignificant. The thing that does need talked about is how Larry's throat is sizing his bullet down from .268 to .266 or .267 during loading....not firing. Not that is significant.Joe


Just like the necks the throats are tapered. In this case it sounds like .268/.269 in the back to bore diameter in the front. If the alloy was soft enough, the case neck tension tight enough, or the crimp heavy enough it will size the bullet down from .268 to .266 without a problem. I can't think of a better way to seal the throat and give perfect alignment. A better question would be how did you get a .268 bullet to kiss the lands when it didn't size down a bit in the front?

I don't have a 266455 like Larry used but isn't the front band or two a little under .268 on the Loverin bullet?

If I can offer you guys a little friendly advise quit digging while you still can.

[StarMetal]

Just like the necks the throats are tapered. In this case it sounds like .268/.269 in the back to bore diameter in the front. If the alloy was soft enough, the case neck tension tight enough, or the crimp heavy enough it will size the bullet down from .268 to .266 without a problem. I can't think of a better way to seal the throat and give perfect alignment. A better question would be how did you get a .268 bullet to kiss the lands when it didn't size down a bit in the front?

I don't have a 266455 like Larry used but isn't the front band or two a little under .268 on the Loverin bullet?

If I can offer you guys a little friendly advise quit digging while you still can.

Pat,
Let's see your chamber cast and the throat measurements, because nobody so far has a throat like that, that sizes down the bullet that much. My rifles don't and 45 2.1's rifles don't.

Follow your own advise: First thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging. It's plain to see you nit pick at everyone's posts about measurements, etc., if they don't follow what you think.

Joe

[Pat I.]

OK whatever you say too but I don't think I'm nitpicking at all. Besides filler the case and bullet fit are what this whole thing is about. If now none of that matters except the filler that's fine and people can just throw some in a case and shoot 1/2 MOA groups at 2300 fps out to 300 yds right?

Here's a print by Dave Kiff for the 6.5 Swede. Notice that the neck tapers from .3011 to .2972 and that the throat starts at .2697 with no lead and ends up at bore diameter with +.0004 tolerances for decimals. Now if you guys want to tell one of the premier reamer manufacturers in the country he's doing it all wrong I'll send you his number.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f357/30iffy/65_776x600.jpg

[45 2.1]

Nice, but we're talking about issue Swedes here, to original specs. I don't think Mr. Kiff has anything to do with the Swedish mausers since he is obviously not old enough to have participated in that. If you like that chamber, then get one....might solve your problems with the caliber in your benchrest rifles. The rest of us are dealing with a military surplus rifle. Clearly quite different than what you're doing.

[swheeler]

Scot,

I think it's been noted that Grex is out of existence. It was pulled from the market a long time ago and unless someone has a healthy supply of it I don't see them using it. Let's just call all of it buffer.

Joe

Well since Grex has been discontinued for a couple decades(and yes I did post/establish this), and Heath stated he used Grex less than 2 years ago, I would assume he had a supply of it, or someone he knows did. If not then he did not DUPLICATE his original loading, something was changed, the buffer.

Another thing, now I could very well be wrong, but I don't remember seeing shot buffer used until after the lead shot ban for migratory birds of mid 1970's. so I'm going to have to say using it in the teens of 20th ceentury, I don't think so.

I guess I'm waiting for Larry to complete his tests, sorta seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

[45 2.1]

[QUOTE=swheeler;785243]Well since Grex has been discontinued for a couple decades(and yes I did post/establish this) I believe that Win. stopped selling it to the public when its use in cartridges was published. I think its use as buffer for shotshells continued though., and Heath stated he used Grex less than 2 years ago, I would assume he had a supply of it, or someone he knows did. If not then he did not DUPLICATE his original loading, something was changed, the buffer. And he had a new lot of cases. Annealed necks IMO are responsible for a lot of poor results.

Another thing, now I could very well be wrong, but I don't remember seeing shot buffer used until after the lead shot ban for migratory birds of mid 1970's. BABore called the maker/supplier on the buffer stated in the milk jug thread and said it had been made for ~ 30 years, which is in the time frame I started useing it also (about 1984 or so). so I'm going to have to say using it in the teens of 20th ceentury, I don't think so. Those old guys tried everything under the sun..........it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't try several things like this.

I guess I'm waiting for Larry to complete his tests, sorta seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. That remains to be seen as of yet.

[Pat I.]

Nice, but we're talking about issue Swedes here, to original specs. I don't think Mr. Kiff has anything to do with the Swedish mausers since he is obviously not old enough to have participated in that. If you like that chamber, then get one....might solve your problems with the caliber in your benchrest rifles. The rest of us are dealing with a military surplus rifle. Clearly quite different than what you're doing.

You really do have a hard time admitting you might be wrong about something don't you. Take a look at the source of the print and you'll notice it's CIP. I'll let people make up their own minds about who's right or wrong here because it's getting to be a waste of time.

[felix]

Ah!, foiled again!!! Holy #$#$#@, Batman!! ... felix

[45 2.1]

You really do have a hard time admitting you might be wrong about something don't you. Take a look at the source of the print and you'll notice it's CIP. I'll let people make up their own minds about who's right or wrong here because it's getting to be a waste of time.

If you look in the title block in the lower right hand corner, you'll see a revision date. Something like in 1986. Seems like it isn't the right date for the dated military Swedes from the late 1800's to the early mid 1900's...............now is it.............

[Pat I.]

OK then we'll use your print. Converted to inches it says the base of the neck is .301, the front of the neck is .297, and the opening to the throat is .269. Looks about the same to me.

[45 2.1]

The placement of all those lines and lettering have a specific function and meaning, unknown to you it seems. Go ask a college drafting instructor or machinist what they mean and why..........

[swheeler]

Ah!, foiled again!!! Holy $%$%$%, Batman!! ... felix

Felix there is no need for that kind of language!

[StarMetal]

OK whatever you say too but I don't think I'm nitpicking at all. Besides filler the case and bullet fit are what this whole thing is about. If now none of that matters except the filler that's fine and people can just throw some in a case and shoot 1/2 MOA groups at 2300 fps out to 300 yds right?

Here's a print by Dave Kiff for the 6.5 Swede. Notice that the neck tapers from .3011 to .2972 and that the throat starts at .2697 with no lead and ends up at bore diameter with +.0004 tolerances for decimals. Now if you guys want to tell one of the premier reamer manufacturers in the country he's doing it all wrong I'll send you his number.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f357/30iffy/65_776x600.jpg

Pat,

You do nit pick about measurement, especially how they are performed and type of measurement tools used. Let's put that behind us. I think we're making progress with this last post of yours.

As 45 2.1 said that's not an original Swede reamer, but anyways we're looking at .0039 difference in the figure over the distance of the neck length which results in a very slight amount of taper. I doubt sincerely the implications that Felix posted as having any consequences in our loading. If, and I say if, the Swede neck is tapered there are no consequences in using factory jacketed or cast in cases that have lots of neck clearance.

Last but not least I'm not seeing a lot of throat taper, at least not to the degree that would sizing Larry's .268 down such as he stated.

Joe

[Pat I.]

Am I the only one who feels they're in a Twilight Zone episode???

[swheeler]

[QUOTE=swheeler;785243]Well since Grex has been discontinued for a couple decades(and yes I did post/establish this) I believe that Win. stopped selling it to the public when its use in cartridges was published. I think its use as buffer for shotshells continued though., and Heath stated he used Grex less than 2 years ago, I would assume he had a supply of it, or someone he knows did. If not then he did not DUPLICATE his original loading, something was changed, the buffer. And he had a new lot of cases. Annealed necks IMO are responsible for a lot of poor results.

Another thing, now I could very well be wrong, but I don't remember seeing shot buffer used until after the lead shot ban for migratory birds of mid 1970's. BABore called the maker/supplier on the buffer stated in the milk jug thread and said it had been made for ~ 30 years, which is in the time frame I started useing it also (about 1984 or so). so I'm going to have to say using it in the teens of 20th ceentury, I don't think so. Those old guys tried everything under the sun..........it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't try several things like this.

I guess I'm waiting for Larry to complete his tests, sorta seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. That remains to be seen as of yet.

Bobby: I was just debating if ground poly buffer was even around from 1913-1919, I don't know if it was. And you are correct, Heath used NEW brass for this test. As for LG"s test I'm patiently waiting.

[swheeler]

Am I the only one who feels they're in a Twilight Zone episode???

probably

[swheeler]

Heath just informed me he used the same buffer as before, but it was not Grex, never was, he just used that name.

[heathydee]

The supply of buffer I have on hand was given to me by a friend of a friend who owns a plastic factory years ago . He assured me it was the same as Grex so that is what I have been calling it . White and light ; about 4 grains to the cc. It does not flow and the case has to be rattled to get it to pack down.
I set out to duplicate my original posted groups and in this I failed .There could be a couple of reasons but I will work on that . The reason I posted the group was just a matter of being honest with the forum.
The load as posted is a 3 MOA group if you discount the flier and that is adequate for hunting as far as I am concerned out to 150 , 180 yards or so .
Heath

[swheeler]

Heath that is "hunting accuracy" by my standards anyways, but your previous groups were indeed a lot better. Thanks for posting your results.
scot

[StarMetal]

Am I the only one who feels they're in a Twilight Zone episode???


Pat,

Explain why you feel that? If it's about the measurements on that reamer drawing you posted, remember that is a modern rendition of the Swede chamber. Who's to say that it was ground off of the origin Swede blueprints?

Joe

[StarMetal]

I just done a test. First let me tell you my Kurtz bullet mics .2685. Next I seat the bullets to just kiss the throat/cone which the base ends up just slightly at or ahead of the shoulder/neck junction. Okay, I chambered a round and extracted it. It extracted very easy, the bullet was not pushed any at all back into the case, and I miked it again. Still .2685....not even a tenth of a thousandths change occured!!!! I can't see how Larry's bullet is getting sized down so much in the chamber and to boot extracts without pulling the bullet.

I have other measurements I'll post later.

Joe

[felix]

Guys, I cannot really decipher what we are getting at. A lot of this discussion so far has nothing to do with making a gun shoot. But, If we are contrasting different guns, then I do comprehend. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Guys, I cannot really decipher what we are getting at. A lot of this discussion so far has nothing to do with making a gun shoot. But, If we are contrasting different guns, then I do comprehend. ... felix

Felix,

I believe it all started because of geargnasher's post about what you posted on hard fillers getting between the case neck and the bullet upon the initial powder ignition. I just did chamber castings on my Swede and can say the chamber neck doesn't have a significant amount of taper to amount to a hill of beans, nor does the throat. You obviously read my post on chambering my loaded cartridge with the .2685 sized bullet.

I also don't agree with your post on it doesn't matter what filler you use. I does make a difference.

I suggest you get a Swede and start your own experiments.

I did, however, agree with Monsanto got out of the plastic business. In fact they got out of just about all the bad things they use to make and are now solely an agricultural product manufacturer. As an added note when I worked at Stauffer's Chemical Company (another company long gone) we made insoluble sulfur for them. They supplied us with their own product container.

Joe

[felix]

Tell me the difference the fillers made in your Swede in detail, Joe. That will help clarify the situation on-hand. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Tell me the difference the fillers made in your Swede in detail, Joe. That will help clarify the situation on-hand. ... felix

I had bought the wrong filler at first. I loaded exactly to the instructions. I was getting okay groups, but nothing stellar. No matter what I did I couldn't shrink them. Tried all the different powders I have on hand and with various loadings. Varying the charged didn't help and changing the bullet types didn't help. Changed lubes too. Then I got the word on the right buffer. Immediately I saw a better group formation and this time upon adjusting powder charges I shrunk it. Let me say too that I tried some loads with the filler up to the case mouth, exactly like 45 2.1 told me not to do and the groups where bad. Merely adjusting the buffer height shrunk the groups. This all begun with the 6.5MS. When I got the Swede I applied what I learned from the 6.5MS and it was a much quicker process finding the sweet spot. I noticed right away when pouring the buffer in my powder funnel that something was very different with the so called right buffer. It wouldn't flow and would clog the funnel. I had to help it along with a small screwdriver, but then I learned to pour it much slower. The stuff also seemed to coat the funnel more after I had poured through it. So it's apparent it's much different from the first buffer I bought which sounds very much likes Precision Reloading's brand. Felix at no time in the testing of both those rifles did any of my groups ever go off the paper nor where anything of them too large to deer hunt with.

I'm thinking of using the other buffer as a filler to replace my use of Dacron, but not to the degree that if the case doesn't have much powder in it, I'm not filling it up with any buffer. I'll use Dacron then. I have decided this because I really like the way buffer scours and cleans the bore.

I want to note on the chamber, cartridge, and barrel diagrams we've all been talking about today that down in the barrel section where it denotes the number of grooves, etc.......the letter u refer's to the rifling twist rate and it's given in mm's as 220, well that equates to 8.66141732. That is one turn in that amount. I find this hard to believe and after this post I'm going to find the twist on my Swede.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, please use a magnifying glass, good light and camera and see if you can get a copy of those filler kernals. Once you get a good shot on one, like distance of focus, move the next filler into view and take its picture. Keep the distance constant. Use a dark background if granules cannot be clearly seen. ... felix

[Pat I.]

I think we're making progress with this last post of yours.Joe

No Joe we're not making any progress so lets just drop it. If you guys don't or won't understand what's being said then I can't explain it on the internet. This is one of those cast bullet PHD kind of thingies that's going to require years of one on one schooling, bowing to the master (ME :p), and walking on rice paper without tearing it to make oneself worthy of the "Knowledge". Danger abounds at every turn of the micrometer thimble and none but a select few that won't partake of any internet forums secret themselves in Tibetan Temples and are experienced in basic print reading, simple arithmetic, and being able to read a micrometer to within .025 can share in the secret.

So go on saying and believing what you want. I'll just wait for the shooting to commence.

[Pat I.]

Guys, I cannot really decipher what we are getting at. A lot of this discussion so far has nothing to do with making a gun shoot. But, If we are contrasting different guns, then I do comprehend. ... felix

Felix,

The recent discussion might not have anything to do with making a gun shoot but it has everything to do with making a 6.5 Swede shoot according to these guys. If you take away all of the case forming and fitting your left with nothing but adding buffer to a load. If all it takes is adding some BPI Original to the load then let em say so and save everyone a lot of time tape and effort.

[JesterGrin_1]

Let me see if I have all of this straight in a nut shell. With the filler what you are doing is to save powder by being able to make a smaller powder charge push a bullet faster with the use of a filler which will take up case space thus increasing the available powder charge to give a higher psi rating with its burn rate?

But why go through all of this instead of a normal powder charge with a good powder other than to save powder? Is there a significant increase of accuracy or FPS that in the end makes it worth the effort?

And if so can this way of loading rifle rounds be used in other loaded cartridges other than the 6.5 by 55?

[StarMetal]

Let me see if I have all of this straight in a nut shell. With the filler what you are doing is to save powder by being able to make a smaller powder charge push a bullet faster with the use of a filler which will take up case space thus increasing the available powder charge to give a higher psi rating with its burn rate?

But why go through all of this instead of a normal powder charge with a good powder other than to save powder? Is there a significant increase of accuracy or FPS that in the end makes it worth the effort?

And if so can this way of loading rifle rounds be used in other loaded cartridges other than the 6.5 by 55?

That's only part of it Jester. The buffer does more things. One it's a shock absorber for the bullet. It buffers the pressure created by the powder from slamming the bullet. It keeps the heat off the base of the bullet. It's a fairly decent insulator. It also conditions the bore and cleans it.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

45 2.1 did mention the taper. We aren't, at least I'm not, fitting the case neck that tight to it so there is clearance. I haven't said I neck turn my necks all the way up to or into the shoulder so if you remember Felix saying the ideal fit was that part of the neck at the shoulder junctions fitting as good. Basically what I have. I didn't want to neck turn my necks as close fit as 45 2.1.

Well, the necks on the cases I am using are turned to give the close slarence that I mention in CastPics article, the results of the first test and since mentioned in respose to you. There in lays some of the problems here; it's difficult to do thing according to the proscribed "technique" when 45 2.1 says one thing and you do another. I guess that leaves you plenty of room to criticise. So be it. Hoefully I will get some semblence of accuracy at 22-2300+ fps with the 'o6 cases and then will test with the Norma cases and with PMC cases. The PMC cases give about the same fit that your revised measurements give in your rifle. We shall see.

I can load my cartridges and chamber them..then extract them without the bullet sticking in the chamber...much as you have stated you've done...but they aren't getting sized down at all. That's the part you have happening that I don't understand.

Not hard to understand at all. The front part of the throats of both my rifles I'm using measure .2665-.267. The groove depths measure .2665-.267. Thus when a 266455 at .2675-.268 is seated to just kiss the leade is chambered the first 2 driving bands are sized by the throat to .2665. Now is that really that hard to understand?

On the hard bolt lift rounds I have a question. Can I assume correctly that you shot at least five of them? Whatever the count were they all hard bolt lift?

I am really tempted to pull a starmetal/45 2.1 here and tell you that the answers have already been posted, numerous times, and you just need to find them. If you can't then you aren't up to doing what I'm doing yada...yada....yada.......

However, I won't do that. The answers to your questions are in my report on the 1st test. I also posted the time/pressure curves for you and the tests of each charge all consisted of 5 shots which were all listed. So yes, there were 5 shots and no not all gave a hard bolt lift. Thre gave hard bolt lift to the degree there was resistance to opening the bolt. None required pounding the bolt open but I had to palm the bolt to open it as a finger grasp lift would not open the bolt.


Mine were. I will state that bolt lift in the older 110 Savage that I have built the 6.5MS on doesn't have the as smooth transition in camming as the my Swede does. The bolt on it required a few very hard raps with my palm to open. My primers were very flat. The corners of them were sharp. I will take a stab at why your next load of two more grains didn't have the same effect. The two more grains of powder took up the space that the buffer would have. I'll assume that you will say that you used your powder measure to correctly throw consistent charges of buffer. Then my question will be did you use the same amount of buffer through all the various powder charges/loads that you tested?

No, I did not use the same amount of filler with every charge of powder. I followed 45 2.1s instruction on adjusting thr amount of filler for each charge. All of this and what I did are adequately explained in the report of the 1st test.

If so that critical (critical in the sense of accuracy, not safety in this case) would have been changes as the compression of the buffer would have been changed. Please relate on this.

There was no real compression of the buffer regardless of the powder charge as the amount of buffer used was adjusted to fil the case as per 45 2.1s instructions.

Larry, if you succeed and get the accuracy....I don't want the credit. If anyone 45 2.1 should get it. I didn't come up with this loading technique for the Swede. All I would like to hear, not just from you, but others that said this couldn't be done is "By God, is is possible, it's possible to get HV accuracy with the Swede even with high rpm". That's all. It's a really fun rifle and caliber and even more so at HV with accuracy. As you pointed out you have a use for that...those 300 yard matches and believe me when you get the load I feel you will be winning those matches.

And if I don't succeed, who takes the credit for that? :-)

One final note, 45 2.1 stated a position inside the case where the powder and buffer should meet. I'm sure you know my 31 grain load that worked for me is much much below that shoulder junction. In fact I have the cutaway case sitting here on my desk and if you would like to see the pic of it I'll post it. I think you and other's may be shocked at the position of it. I know 45 2.1 will be and point out some negatives about it.

Yes, there is much contradiction between what powder level in the case you use and what 45 2.1 says to use. There in lays another problem I'm having to deconflict. That's why I ask for suggested starting loads for a couple powders and got the "yada....yada...yada...answer as mentioned above. Your 31 gr load of AA4350 does not fit 45 2.1s instructions. 45 2.1 says to figure it out and use his instructions yet he say to work around your 31 gr load. Yet the top load I stopped at with AA4350 was still below the level of a "starting load" per 45 2.1s instructions. So, based on all of this confusion and conflicting instructions I will do as I earlier stated; I will work up loads in 1-3 gr increments of a particular powder below the projected velocity of 22-2300+ fps and above that level until pressure problems become evident or non-existant. I will then work with the projected velocity level of 22-2300+fps in 1-2 grain increments. If accuracy is found fine. If not then I will change some componants like bulets and lube. If that proves unfruitful then I will move on to another powder.

I'll sit back and anxiously await your next round of testing and if you have any questions I can assist you will please ask them.

That would be very nice of you Joe and rest assured I will ask questions. I will also give 45 2.1 and you all the credit.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Joe, please use a magnifying glass, good light and camera and see if you can get a copy of those filler kernals. Once you get a good shot on one, like distance of focus, move the next filler into view and take its picture. Keep the distance constant. Use a dark background if granules cannot be clearly seen. ... felix

Felix,

I just have the one buffer now, but I will try to take a good picture of it. I have a few things here I can try do that with.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Just a couple of questions here Larry...what is the accectable accuracy level you're looking for here? What accuracy level does the rifle shoot with J-bullets at your desired velocity? Are you trying to match that accuracy or just come close? Thanks. And I'm glad you're back and no...I'm not a "flocking" fool.

Shooter93

The M38 with a 2X Leupold scout scope on it shoots moa with several j bullet loads. The Mex Swede will shoot sub moa with a couple j bullet loads. Jow claims "bughole groups" and has posted targets showing moa groups, I would be more than pleased to have 1 1/2 moa (out to 300 yards) with 10 shot groups that could be shot on demand. During the dourse of the testing I would hope to see 5 shot groups in the moa to 1 1/2 moa level at 100 yards if all is as claimed to prove it is possible for us to shoot cast bullets at HV in the 6.5 Swede.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry: Apparently you are working up loads using shotshell buffer. Most of these "buffers" are "ground" plastics of some type. May I suggest you check out the PRECISION RELOADING website. They offer a spherical plastic shotshell buffer. This stuff is not ground, but instead is micro beadlets. It will not clump and flows like water. I will be keeping close tabs on your experiments. LOL :grin:

Trifocals (I resemble that:-) )

I've been to their site and all I can say is it looks like a good product. The problem is that is not the "original" buffer used by starmetal and 45 2.1. According to them it can only be done with "riginal" buffer.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
I wonder if the hard bolt lift you noticed was caused by the filler compacting and expanding the soft shoulder/neck area of the case? It could be that you just hit the "right" balance between powder and filler and then, once the amount of powder was increased (and the amount of filler subsequently reduced) the problem went away.

Cap'n

That is pretty much what I figure but without further testing.......?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

45 2.1 did mention the taper. We aren't, at least I'm not, fitting the case neck that tight to it so there is clearance. I haven't said I neck turn my necks all the way up to or into the shoulder so if you remember Felix saying the ideal fit was that part of the neck at the shoulder junctions fitting as good. Basically what I have. I didn't want to neck turn my necks as close fit as 45 2.1.

Well, the necks on the cases I am using are turned to give the close slarence that I mention in CastPics article, the results of the first test and since mentioned in respose to you. There in lays some of the problems here; it's difficult to do thing according to the proscribed "technique" when 45 2.1 says one thing and you do another. I guess that leaves you plenty of room to criticise. So be it. Hoefully I will get some semblence of accuracy at 22-2300+ fps with the 'o6 cases and then will test with the Norma cases and with PMC cases. The PMC cases give about the same fit that your revised measurements give in your rifle. We shall see.

I can load my cartridges and chamber them..then extract them without the bullet sticking in the chamber...much as you have stated you've done...but they aren't getting sized down at all. That's the part you have happening that I don't understand.

Not hard to understand at all. The front part of the throats of both my rifles I'm using measure .2665-.267. The groove depths measure .2665-.267. Thus when a 266455 at .2675-.268 is seated to just kiss the leade is chambered the first 2 driving bands are sized by the throat to .2665. Now is that really that hard to understand?

On the hard bolt lift rounds I have a question. Can I assume correctly that you shot at least five of them? Whatever the count were they all hard bolt lift?

I am really tempted to pull a starmetal/45 2.1 here and tell you that the answers have already been posted, numerous times, and you just need to find them. If you can't then you aren't up to doing what I'm doing yada...yada....yada.......

However, I won't do that. The answers to your questions are in my report on the 1st test. I also posted the time/pressure curves for you and the tests of each charge all consisted of 5 shots which were all listed. So yes, there were 5 shots and no not all gave a hard bolt lift. Thre gave hard bolt lift to the degree there was resistance to opening the bolt. None required pounding the bolt open but I had to palm the bolt to open it as a finger grasp lift would not open the bolt.


Mine were. I will state that bolt lift in the older 110 Savage that I have built the 6.5MS on doesn't have the as smooth transition in camming as the my Swede does. The bolt on it required a few very hard raps with my palm to open. My primers were very flat. The corners of them were sharp. I will take a stab at why your next load of two more grains didn't have the same effect. The two more grains of powder took up the space that the buffer would have. I'll assume that you will say that you used your powder measure to correctly throw consistent charges of buffer. Then my question will be did you use the same amount of buffer through all the various powder charges/loads that you tested?

No, I did not use the same amount of filler with every charge of powder. I followed 45 2.1s instruction on adjusting thr amount of filler for each charge. All of this and what I did are adequately explained in the report of the 1st test.

If so that critical (critical in the sense of accuracy, not safety in this case) would have been changes as the compression of the buffer would have been changed. Please relate on this.

There was no real compression of the buffer regardless of the powder charge as the amount of buffer used was adjusted to fil the case as per 45 2.1s instructions.

Larry, if you succeed and get the accuracy....I don't want the credit. If anyone 45 2.1 should get it. I didn't come up with this loading technique for the Swede. All I would like to hear, not just from you, but others that said this couldn't be done is "By God, is is possible, it's possible to get HV accuracy with the Swede even with high rpm". That's all. It's a really fun rifle and caliber and even more so at HV with accuracy. As you pointed out you have a use for that...those 300 yard matches and believe me when you get the load I feel you will be winning those matches.

And if I don't succeed, who takes the credit for that? :-)

One final note, 45 2.1 stated a position inside the case where the powder and buffer should meet. I'm sure you know my 31 grain load that worked for me is much much below that shoulder junction. In fact I have the cutaway case sitting here on my desk and if you would like to see the pic of it I'll post it. I think you and other's may be shocked at the position of it. I know 45 2.1 will be and point out some negatives about it.

Yes, there is much contradiction between what powder level in the case you use and what 45 2.1 says to use. There in lays another problem I'm having to deconflict. That's why I ask for suggested starting loads for a couple powders and got the "yada....yada...yada...answer as mentioned above. Your 31 gr load of AA4350 does not fit 45 2.1s instructions. 45 2.1 says to figure it out and use his instructions yet he say to work around your 31 gr load. Yet the top load I stopped at with AA4350 was still below the level of a "starting load" per 45 2.1s instructions. So, based on all of this confusion and conflicting instructions I will do as I earlier stated; I will work up loads in 1-3 gr increments of a particular powder below the projected velocity of 22-2300+ fps and above that level until pressure problems become evident or non-existant. I will then work with the projected velocity level of 22-2300+fps in 1-2 grain increments. If accuracy is found fine. If not then I will change some componants like bulets and lube. If that proves unfruitful then I will move on to another powder.

I'll sit back and anxiously await your next round of testing and if you have any questions I can assist you will please ask them.

That would be very nice of you Joe and rest assured I will ask questions. I will also give 45 2.1 and you all the credit.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

My five rounds that had the hard bolt lift wouldn't open with normal grasp of the bolt. I had to palm the bolt ball a few times to get that final unlock. It palmed over to that last final camming spot, then require the palm somemore.

45 2.1 and I have argued over my choice of powders and my loading techniques. The 4350 powder is on the edge of being useable. I have the cut away case loaded with the 31 grains of AA4350 and buffer and when I look at that I kind of get a chill up my back as it's an awful lot of buffer. 45 2.1 says I'm lucky that it didn't do bad things, but my Swede seems to really like that load.

Of some interest, as you've noted we have some original Swede chamber and case drawings, that they say the rifling twist is 1 in 8.66. Well got my cleaning rod out and after a number of tries I was getting about 8.5. On one of the bad attempts, as I got the 8.5 reading more then a few times, I got a 1-7 and 1in 7.5. So now I'm really wanting to know what gives with the Swede. You see the twist all over the place in print. Example Lyman's cast book says it's 7.5. I've see on the net 8 and 8.5.

There shouldn't be any blame for a failure. You just have to keep trying until you find the sweet stop with the powder your rifle likes. I'm hoping you will find with the right buffer and information that you've acquired in the past few weeks here about this, that you will see the groups starting to become better. They you will know you are on track.

Did you see and read Healthdee's posts and targets? He has another target in another thread that is better then the one here. He's using a filler and it's HV so he's on track and showing it can be done. From what you say your first attempt was his targets are much better. Larry, from the get go I never had any bullets off the target paper, and you know I use printer paper to give you an idea of the size. Also almost all my groups would have qualified suitable for deer hunting. They were not the size you're searching for, but definitely capable of taking deer up to 100 yards.

When you going to shoot the next batch?

Joe

[StarMetal]

Cap'n

That is pretty much what I figure but without further testing.......?

Larry Gibson

My sweet spot good group load on both rifles doesn't have hard bolt lift what so ever.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Forgot to mention, but assume you read in one of my post this evening, my bullets are .2685 if you take the reading out to the fourth decimal point. I chambered them and extracted, easily I mine add, and they mic exactly the same even to the fourth decimal. I am softly camming into the cone. This is the same no matter what bullet I'm using. I do not force the nose what so ever in to the rifling.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

I just done a test. First let me tell you my Kurtz bullet mics .2685. Next I seat the bullets to just kiss the throat/cone which the base ends up just slightly at or ahead of the shoulder/neck junction. Okay, I chambered a round and extracted it. It extracted very easy, the bullet was not pushed any at all back into the case, and I miked it again. Still .2685....not even a tenth of a thousandths change occured!!!! I can't see how Larry's bullet is getting sized down so much in the chamber and to boot extracts without pulling the bullet.

Has it occured to you that I have to fit the cast bullets to my rifles for tests conducted in my rifles? Using dimensions of your bullets that fit your rifles doesn't mean that is what is going to fit with my cast bullets in my rifles now does it. You need to get off this as it is of no consequence. The bullets I am using and going to use will be sized to fit my rifles throats. You can not tell from measuringy your bullets and throats that mine won't fit. Let it go.

Besides, in uncrimped cases the unsized bullets get shoved back in the cases not stuck in the throat and "pulling the bullet". With crimps under a driving band the bullets are sized down to perfectly fit the throat....so what's the problem with that?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

I just done a test. First let me tell you my Kurtz bullet mics .2685. Next I seat the bullets to just kiss the throat/cone which the base ends up just slightly at or ahead of the shoulder/neck junction. Okay, I chambered a round and extracted it. It extracted very easy, the bullet was not pushed any at all back into the case, and I miked it again. Still .2685....not even a tenth of a thousandths change occured!!!! I can't see how Larry's bullet is getting sized down so much in the chamber and to boot extracts without pulling the bullet.

Has it occured to you that I have to fit the cast bullets to my rifles for tests conducted in my rifles? Using dimensions of your bullets that fit your rifles doesn't mean that is what is going to fit with my cast bullets in my rifles now does it. You need to get off this as it is of no consequence. The bullets I am using and going to use will be sized to fit my rifles throats. You can not tell from measuringy your bullets and throats that mine won't fit. Let it go.

Besides, in uncrimped cases the unsized bullets get shoved back in the cases not stuck in the throat and "pulling the bullet". With crimps under a driving band the bullets are sized down to perfectly fit the throat....so what's the problem with that?

Larry Gibson

Larry,

You misunderstood me. Some of us were thinking you had a funny throat in your M38. I'm not at all trying to get you to size to my dimensions, but that brings up an interesting thing. You wanted me to send you my loaded ammo and I kept telling you that it wouldn't fit. Now I'm convinced it wouldn't, aren't you? We're also wondering as to why you can't chamber a round with a bullet at .268.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

My five rounds that had the hard bolt lift wouldn't open with normal grasp of the bolt. I had to palm the bolt ball a few times to get that final unlock. It palmed over to that last final camming spot, then require the palm somemore.

There seems to be something else at work there besides pressure. Not sure of it and don't want to commit to any conjecture. I wasn't using the same filer so my results may not reflect at all what was happening with your rifle/load. I will be running the 31 gr load with the right "origianl" filler and several bullets so we will see. Cap'n may be right, I just don't know yet.

Speaking of bullets; are you sending me some of yours?

45 2.1 and I have argued over my choice of powders and my loading techniques. The 4350 powder is on the edge of being useable. I have the cut away case loaded with the 31 grains of AA4350 and buffer and when I look at that I kind of get a chill up my back as it's an awful lot of buffer. 45 2.1 says I'm lucky that it didn't do bad things, but my Swede seems to really like that load.

I had the same thoughts; am I chasing a SEE here when I was loading those! However, there was no indication of SEE or any other pressure problems. However, again I wasn't using the sam filler. We will see when I use the "original" filler.

Of some interest, as you've noted we have some original Swede chamber and case drawings, that they say the rifling twist is 1 in 8.66. Well got my cleaning rod out and after a number of tries I was getting about 8.5. On one of the bad attempts, as I got the 8.5 reading more then a few times, I got a 1-7 and 1in 7.5. So now I'm really wanting to know what gives with the Swede. You see the twist all over the place in print. Example Lyman's cast book says it's 7.5. I've see on the net 8 and 8.5.

There is always a differenc e between chamber specs and case specs. Unfortuneately many "experts" confuse them and they get in print as the wrong ones. I am inclined to agree with the CIP dreawings posted. They do in fact represent what would be the minimal specs for a pressure barrel chamber. SAAMI uses what the industry (American) provide them most often and then "standardise" them. My castings and sluggings of the four 6.5 Swedes I have kept (out of many that have past throuh my hands) are very consistent, except for headspace, and are on the minimal spec side. The chamber case necks and throats of all (there have been many to get the ones I have kept) the Swede chambers I've measured have been tapered as Pat mentions. Actual dimensions will vary because of manufacturing tolerances, even for the Swedes. None the less they are tapered.

As to the varience of twist rates liste; it sure beats me. I have measured all four of mine with a very tight patch on a jag and get a consistent 7.75 - 8" twist. Ocasionally the patch will slip and that skews the measurement so I exclude those measurements. I am confident the tiwst is very close to 7.8 to 7.9". We must also remember manufacturing tolerances here. If a bunch of barrels came off one rifling machine at 8.2" tewist I doubt the Sweds would scrap them. That was just an example but I'm sure there was an allowable varience.

There shouldn't be any blame for a failure. You just have to keep trying until you find the sweet stop with the powder your rifle likes. I'm hoping you will find with the right buffer and information that you've acquired in the past few weeks here about this, that you will see the groups starting to become better. They you will know you are on track.

That would be nice.

Did you see and read Healthdee's posts and targets? He has another target in another thread that is better then the one here. He's using a filler and it's HV so he's on track and showing it can be done. From what you say your first attempt was his targets are much better. Larry, from the get go I never had any bullets off the target paper, and you know I use printer paper to give you an idea of the size. Also almost all my groups would have qualified suitable for deer hunting. They were not the size you're searching for, but definitely capable of taking deer up to 100 yards.

I'm not looking for minute of deer loads....prefer the .35 Remington for that:-) Here's a problem I've got but I'm not saying anything until I test the 31 gr load with the "original" filler. I got 1950 fps or so with a 130 gr bullet using that charge of AA4350. You got 2250 fps with a heavier bullt and Heath also did with a 150 gr bullet getting 2150 fps using 31 gr H4350. All were with M38 length Swede barrels. See the problem? Until I test with the "original" fill I can't comment can I?

When you going to shoot the next batch?

I've already received a mould from Jeremy and got another one comming from Pat along with a .268 sizer. I'm expecting some bullets from you to test. Also the "original" filler is on the way from BPI. I will be a casting fool when I return home in a couple weeks and then will let the bullets age a couple weeks at least. Yes, I know 45 2.1 lets his get really old but is that really necessary? Anyways I am hoping to have at least the next test with 266455 done around the 15th of February. I know all of you are getting impatient for information but sme things take time if we are to do them right.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

You misunderstood me. Some of us were thinking you had a funny throat in your M38. I'm not at all trying to get you to size to my dimensions, but that brings up an interesting thing. You wanted me to send you my loaded ammo and I kept telling you that it wouldn't fit. Now I'm convinced it wouldn't, aren't you? We're also wondering as to why you can't chamber a round with a bullet at .268

Yes I do think it will fit. You crimp your bullets so the throat should simply size them down to a perfect fit the same as they do the 266455s.

If you want to send the loaded ammo I will test it. I'm sure it will fit in one of my rifles. However, I am still expecting at least the bullets to test(?).

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

My five rounds that had the hard bolt lift wouldn't open with normal grasp of the bolt. I had to palm the bolt ball a few times to get that final unlock. It palmed over to that last final camming spot, then require the palm somemore.

There seems to be something else at work there besides pressure. Not sure of it and don't want to commit to any conjecture. I wasn't using the same filer so my results may not reflect at all what was happening with your rifle/load. I will be running the 31 gr load with the right "origianl" filler and several bullets so we will see. Cap'n may be right, I just don't know yet. Have you ever noticed when you do a pound type throat cast that it's very difficult to open the bolt sometimes on some rifles? I did a partial chamber cast (the neck area) and throat and my Swede bolt required a smack with my palm to open. What I'm getting after here is that it was the pounding pressure against the cartridge and the lead not letting any rebound or shrinkage. I still think that it's a pressure thing binding the bolts up.

Speaking of bullets; are you sending me some of yours?

45 2.1 and I have argued over my choice of powders and my loading techniques. The 4350 powder is on the edge of being useable. I have the cut away case loaded with the 31 grains of AA4350 and buffer and when I look at that I kind of get a chill up my back as it's an awful lot of buffer. 45 2.1 says I'm lucky that it didn't do bad things, but my Swede seems to really like that load.

I had the same thoughts; am I chasing a SEE here when I was loading those! However, there was no indication of SEE or any other pressure problems. However, again I wasn't using the sam filler. We will see when I use the "original" filler.

Of some interest, as you've noted we have some original Swede chamber and case drawings, that they say the rifling twist is 1 in 8.66. Well got my cleaning rod out and after a number of tries I was getting about 8.5. On one of the bad attempts, as I got the 8.5 reading more then a few times, I got a 1-7 and 1in 7.5. So now I'm really wanting to know what gives with the Swede. You see the twist all over the place in print. Example Lyman's cast book says it's 7.5. I've see on the net 8 and 8.5.

There is always a differenc e between chamber specs and case specs. Unfortuneately many "experts" confuse them and they get in print as the wrong ones. I am inclined to agree with the CIP dreawings posted. They do in fact represent what would be the minimal specs for a pressure barrel chamber. SAAMI uses what the industry (American) provide them most often and then "standardise" them. My castings and sluggings of the four 6.5 Swedes I have kept (out of many that have past throuh my hands) are very consistent, except for headspace, and are on the minimal spec side. The chamber case necks and throats of all (there have been many to get the ones I have kept) the Swede chambers I've measured have been tapered as Pat mentions. Actual dimensions will vary because of manufacturing tolerances, even for the Swedes. None the less they are tapered. I'll go along with the wear theory on the front part of the neck (the base). I see no reason why they would taper a neck area. I did that pound cast as I mention ahead of this and although the measurements of the neck base and mouth areas are different, they aren't enough to have be cut purposely....again the wear theory.

As to the varience of twist rates liste; it sure beats me. I have measured all four of mine with a very tight patch on a jag and get a consistent 7.75 - 8" twist. Ocasionally the patch will slip and that skews the measurement so I exclude those measurements. I am confident the tiwst is very close to 7.8 to 7.9". We must also remember manufacturing tolerances here. If a bunch of barrels came off one rifling machine at 8.2" tewist I doubt the Sweds would scrap them. That was just an example but I'm sure there was an allowable varience. I'm not at the end yet with this rifling twist thing. Could be you're right about the different machines and personal cutting them. I don't think they would scrap a barrel either that would have a very close twist to what they wanted.

There shouldn't be any blame for a failure. You just have to keep trying until you find the sweet stop with the powder your rifle likes. I'm hoping you will find with the right buffer and information that you've acquired in the past few weeks here about this, that you will see the groups starting to become better. They you will know you are on track.

That would be nice.

Did you see and read Healthdee's posts and targets? He has another target in another thread that is better then the one here. He's using a filler and it's HV so he's on track and showing it can be done. From what you say your first attempt was his targets are much better. Larry, from the get go I never had any bullets off the target paper, and you know I use printer paper to give you an idea of the size. Also almost all my groups would have qualified suitable for deer hunting. They were not the size you're searching for, but definitely capable of taking deer up to 100 yards.

I'm not looking for minute of deer loads....prefer the .35 Remington for that:-) Here's a problem I've got but I'm not saying anything until I test the 31 gr load with the "original" filler. I got 1950 fps or so with a 130 gr bullet using that charge of AA4350. You got 2250 fps with a heavier bullt and Heath also did with a 150 gr bullet getting 2150 fps using 31 gr H4350. All were with M38 length Swede barrels. See the problem? Until I test with the "original" fill I can't comment can I? I was just mentioning this because these were the very experimental loads with the wrong buffer and wrong technique. Little more perspective: many of my experimental loads were minute of bottom of coke can. I think that is decent. Some of these were very high velocity and I believe I mentioned to you I had the Cruise Missile to a little over 2500 fps minute of coke can bottom....but you know how I like the very small groups. Dee's velocity was up there very close to mine with a lighter bullet. Wonder why your MexSwede didn't obtain more close to our two velocities?

When you going to shoot the next batch?

I've already received a mould from Jeremy and got another one comming from Pat along with a .268 sizer. I'm expecting some bullets from you to test. Also the "original" filler is on the way from BPI. I will be a casting fool when I return home in a couple weeks and then will let the bullets age a couple weeks at least. Yes, I know 45 2.1 lets his get really old but is that really necessary? Anyways I am hoping to have at least the next test with 266455 done around the 15th of February. I know all of you are getting impatient for information but sme things take time if we are to do them right. I'm impatient for you to do it. Notice I didn't say fail. Too bad we're not within reasonable driving distance. Two heads are better then one.

Larry Gibson

I'll send the bullets if you promise not to shoot the best group with them because if you do I'll have to agitate you. :bigsmyl2:

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry and others,

Here's a picture of that 31 grain AA4350 load with the Kurtz. You can see how unnerving it is to look at and think about shooting. With that said Larry you be very careful and I hope no bad things happen in your test...okay? Others, be very careful with this load.

When I get the 3100 I'll try to find the sweet spot with it and post it as it will be much more safer.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Cutaway.jpg

Joe

[geargnasher]

QUESTION: How am I supposed to get .001" to .0008" neck clearance in a Swedish Mauser with a tapered chamber neck??????

And don't any of you claim that there isn't any taper in the militaries. I'm not saying they were ALL cut with a taper, but it seems pretty common. I love how we take documented facts and then concoct terminology like "wear theory". Real scientific. I don't care if it's wear or the way the Swedes ground their reamers, the fact in many cases, if not all, remains.

I have two issue Swedes. Both are CG M96s, one dated 1917 and one dated 1903. I have pounded chamber/throad slugs and I have compared those to once-fired cases from each, and BOTH have a TAPER of .0025" from the edge of the neck/shoulder fillet to the end of the case on the slugs, another .0005" to the end of the chambers.

The 1903 goes from .3040" >> .3015"

The 1917 goes from .3060" >> .3085"

Lyman #49, on p. 177, shows a SAAMI drawing of the Swede and shows the neck to be .299" >> .297", where I believe Joe got his data that he posted on the Milk Jug thread.

Lyman cast bullet handbook, 3rd edition, p. 158 indicates .298" >> .297" taper.

There IS a taper on these original military Swedish Mausers. It is an even taper, too, checked on the slugs with a straightedge and bright backlight, so no chance of mismeasuring due to the radius of the fillet at the neck/shoulder junction.

So again, the question, how does one fit the brass to that taper? Is there .001" total at the case mouth and .0035" at the base?

45 2.1 I want your answer, since you are so insistent with Larry that he "didn't follow instructions" and clearance as you said and that contributed to his dismal accuracy in the first round of load pressure tests. If your military Swede chambers are straight, then fine. I guess mine, Larry's, and Pat's won't work. Joe's tapered chamber won't either, then. Or is he making up the chamber neck dimensions, too?

Just exactly what kind of "Original Military Swedish Mauser" does one have to have to make this voodoo magic work?

Gear

[StarMetal]

QUESTION: How am I supposed to get .001" to .0008" neck clearance in a Swedish Mauser with a tapered chamber neck??????

And don't any of you claim that there isn't any taper in the militaries. I'm not saying they were ALL cut with a taper, but it seems pretty common. I love how we take documented facts and then concoct terminology like "wear theory". Real scientific. I don't care if it's wear or the way the Swedes ground their reamers, the fact in many cases, if not all, remains.

I have two issue Swedes. Both are CG M96s, one dated 1917 and one dated 1903. I have pounded chamber/throad slugs and I have compared those to once-fired cases from each, and BOTH have a TAPER of .0025" from the edge of the neck/shoulder fillet to the end of the case on the slugs, another .0005" to the end of the chambers.

The 1903 goes from .3040" >> .3015"

The 1917 goes from .3060" >> .3085" That's not that much taper. It's not enough to be concerned with us one is fitting brass with near clearance and I haven't seen any neck turners that would turn a tapered neck.

Lyman #49, on p. 177, shows a SAAMI drawing of the Swede and shows the neck to be .299" >> .297", where I believe Joe got his data that he posted on the Milk Jug thread. Nope, didn't get any information from that book.

Lyman cast bullet handbook, 3rd edition, p. 158 indicates .298" >> .297" taper.

There IS a taper on these original military Swedish Mausers. It is an even taper, too, checked on the slugs with a straightedge and bright backlight, so no chance of mismeasuring due to the radius of the fillet at the neck/shoulder junction.

So again, the question, how does one fit the brass to that taper? Is there .001" total at the case mouth and .0035" at the base?

45 2.1 I want your answer, since you are so insistent with Larry that he "didn't follow instructions" and clearance as you said and that contributed to his dismal accuracy in the first round of load pressure tests. If your military Swede chambers are straight, then fine. I guess mine, Larry's, and Pat's won't work. Joe's tapered chamber won't either, then. Or is he making up the chamber neck dimensions, too?

Just exactly what kind of "Original Military Swedish Mauser" does one have to have to make this voodoo magic work?

Gear

I'll let 45 2.1 answer the rest of your questions.

Joe

[geargnasher]

I hope he will. Since 45 2.1's loading technique has such a narrow window of safety and perfect case fit is so paramount then how can taper be ignored, especially with it contributing to possible filler jam-up around the boolit base?

Let's get the facts out and bury the hatchet on case neck fit for this technique. I think the man doing the pressure testing needs to know, too.

Gear

[swheeler]

Has anyone checked the cases that had hard bolt lift for ring/thinning at junction of bullet base and neck? Did some cases grow in length more than others?

[StarMetal]

Has anyone checked the cases that had hard bolt lift for ring/thinning at junction of bullet base and neck? Did some cases grow in length more than others?


You fellows on the this hard bolt lift are beating a dead horse. Larry, myself, and 45 2.1 don't see a think wrong with the cases that had hard bolt lift. I believe Larry will tell us that too. So to answer your question no.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I hope he will. Since 45 2.1's loading technique has such a narrow window of safety and perfect case fit is so paramount then how can taper be ignored, especially with it contributing to possible filler jam-up around the boolit base?

Let's get the facts out and bury the hatchet on case neck fit for this technique. I think the man doing the pressure testing needs to know, too.

Gear

Everyone knows that myself and 45 2.1 aren't concerned about this. That's not to say we believe they are tapered. Has anyone heard Larry say anything about it except to quit harping on it, to drop it. The only reason I've addressed is because of you and Pat I.
Now if you and Pat I would leave it alone Larry will shoot his rifle...tapered neck or not. It's not important even with closer fitting. 45 2.1's loads do not have a narrow window of safety. How would you know that?

Larry continue on with your tests please. I hope you ignore those on the tapered necks.

Joe

[Pat I.]

I want to know how we went from "My usual bugholes" and 1/2 MOA groups out to 300 yds at 2300 fps to minute of coke can and 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yds at 2150 fps. I'm also a little stumped by how we went from doing a loading technique that is so precise and so dangerous that for years it couldn't be disclosed to the unwashed masses to basically just using a filler.

Larry I wouldn't worry about a little extra oomph being needed to open the bolt a couple of times. Could have been as simple as a little junk between the front of the bolt and the back of the barrel or between the rear of the lugs and the seats or ..................... If it was a pressure problem it wouldn't have stopped when you increased the charge.

[Larry Gibson]

Guys

On the hard bolt lift; there is something afoot there and it was not high pressure with the #47 filler. I have not yet tested the "original" filler. I have my own idea what was causing the hard bolt lift but until I test with original filler it is pretty much speculation as the two may not be related. Thre could be hogh pressure involved with original filler. Until I test I/we won't know.

I have reformed 6.5 cases from WW 7x57 cases and some '06 cases that give tapered necks. The problem is they are not numiform in thickness and they do not have the .001 clearence required in 45 2.1s instructions. Perhaps there is some lot of '06 cases that will give correctly tapered necks when formed into 6.5 cases. I haven't found any yet. But let us aske ourselves if it is really necessary. Even with a very soft alloy such as 50/50 the pressure traces show the bullet is well into the bore before the yeild strength of the alloy is reached. This is because of the slow time/pressure curve of the powders we are using. If the harder necks mentioned by 45 2.1 are holding the bullet cocentric until it is well into the throat/bore then is the really "perfect case neck fit necessary? I don'tknow yet but the testing will answer that question.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Guys

On the hard bolt lift; there is something afoot there and it was not high pressure with the #47 filler. I have not yet tested the "original" filler. I have my own idea what was causing the hard bolt lift but until I test with original filler it is pretty much speculation as the two may not be related. Thre could be hogh pressure involved with original filler. Until I test I/we won't know.

I have reformed 6.5 cases from WW 7x57 cases and some '06 cases that give tapered necks. The problem is they are not numiform in thickness and they do not have the .001 clearence required in 45 2.1s instructions. Perhaps there is some lot of '06 cases that will give correctly tapered necks when formed into 6.5 cases. I haven't found any yet. But let us aske ourselves if it is really necessary. Even with a very soft alloy such as 50/50 the pressure traces show the bullet is well into the bore before the yeild strength of the alloy is reached. This is because of the slow time/pressure curve of the powders we are using. If the harder necks mentioned by 45 2.1 are holding the bullet cocentric until it is well into the throat/bore then is the really "perfect case neck fit necessary? I don'tknow yet but the testing will answer that question.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Funny you mentioned forming from the 7x57 because that's what I use for my 6.5MS. I formed some RP and Federal case and they are thick enough for that rifle's chamber. I understand that it's very hard to find the thicker 06 military cases.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Guys

On the hard bolt lift; there is something afoot there and it was not high pressure with the #47 filler. I have not yet tested the "original" filler. I have my own idea what was causing the hard bolt lift but until I test with original filler it is pretty much speculation as the two may not be related. Thre could be hogh pressure involved with original filler. Until I test I/we won't know.

I have reformed 6.5 cases from WW 7x57 cases and some '06 cases that give tapered necks. The problem is they are not numiform in thickness and they do not have the .001 clearence required in 45 2.1s instructions. Perhaps there is some lot of '06 cases that will give correctly tapered necks when formed into 6.5 cases. I haven't found any yet. But let us aske ourselves if it is really necessary. Even with a very soft alloy such as 50/50 the pressure traces show the bullet is well into the bore before the yeild strength of the alloy is reached. This is because of the slow time/pressure curve of the powders we are using. If the harder necks mentioned by 45 2.1 are holding the bullet cocentric until it is well into the throat/bore then is the really "perfect case neck fit necessary? I don'tknow yet but the testing will answer that question.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry, you answered my question right there.

My primary interest is to sort out the contradictory information. First, it is said that the case neck has to fit to BR specs or better or you'll never get accuracy, then it is brought up that that isn't possible with tapered chambers, so then the issue just gets poo-pood and ignored, and now I'm "harping" trying to get a straight answer. My apologies.

So if fit isn't so important after all, someone remind me why do we have to use '06 cases again?

Gear

[Nrut]

Gear,
Fit is important!..
It is always important..
Both ends of the boolit have to be in line with the bore and supported from the time of ignition until it is supported by the bore..
That is basic..
There are two ways to get a good fit in a lose chamber neck.
--One is by using thicker brass.
--The other is by using a fatter boolit that fits the case neck then size or taper the nose to fit the throat.
So lets say that there is a tapered neck. Perhaps the PSB is forced into the tapered area on ignition and holds the extreme rear of the boolit centered.
Just use standard bench rest case prep and and follow the loading technique out lined by Starmetal and 45 2.1.
The only thing that I don't understand is why the case necks should be hard.

[45 2.1]

Just use standard bench rest case prep and and follow the loading technique out lined by Starmetal and 45 2.1. The only thing that I don't understand is why the case necks should be hard.

I've tried this with many different cases (commercial 6.5x55, reformed commercial from other calibers, thin and thick necked military). The only ones that worked were with thick necks so I could turn them for correct clearance and those of them that had hard case necks. Another 0.001" of clearance over that and annealed necks wouldn't shoot well at all.
The tapered neck boondoggle is simply put out there to confuse you by a moderator from the CBA forum.........it doesn't make a difference........stop worrying about it. If this bothers you and you have a mind to, you can shim the cutter carrier block on a forster to do this.....no big problem.

From a Larry post:
There shouldn't be any blame for a failure. You just have to keep trying until you find the sweet stop with the powder your rifle likes. I'm hoping you will find with the right buffer and information that you've acquired in the past few weeks here about this, that you will see the groups starting to become better. They you will know you are on track.
That would be nice.
This is one place you really need to be. Keep going until you get there. Aged boolits usually shoot much better than ones two weeks old. Even Felix has said this.

[scrapcan]

If aged bullets would do better I can send some from the mould I sent to Larry. They were cast when I received the mould from Garandrus. However, they are not sized or lubed, so I would suspect work softening while sizing/lubing.

But I have a question on that topic. Are the aged bullets mentioned aged after sizing and lubing?

One other pet peeve is the use of colored text of same typeface without some identifier. This is very difficult for those who want to print the post and do so in black and white. Can you guys put some identifier in the text when you add something, it sure would make it easier to follow on a printed copy 6 months from know.

[Larry Gibson]

manleyjt

If aged bullets would do better I can send some from the mould I sent to Larry. They were cast when I received the mould from Garandrus. However, they are not sized or lubed, so I would suspect work softening while sizing/lubing.

Please send them, I wil shoot comparative groups with 2 wk old and aged bullets. Quite frankly I have tested this before and found that after 2 weeks of aging with AC'd bullets accuracy was as good as it would get. However that was wih loads down in or under the RPM threshold not at HV. The "master" has spoken so we will try some aged bullets. This then begs the question of the "master"; if 2 weeks is not enough aging for best accuracy with this technique then what is the correct age?

But I have a question on that topic. Are the aged bullets mentioned aged after sizing and lubing?

Good question; I'd like the "master's" answer on that too, just to eliminate the variables as much as possible.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

manleyjt

If aged bullets would do better I can send some from the mould I sent to Larry. They were cast when I received the mould from Garandrus. However, they are not sized or lubed, so I would suspect work softening while sizing/lubing.

Please send them, I wil shoot comparative groups with 2 wk old and aged bullets. Quite frankly I have tested this before and found that after 2 weeks of aging with AC'd bullets accuracy was as good as it would get. However that was wih loads down in or under the RPM threshold not at HV. The "master" has spoken so we will try some aged bullets. This then begs the question of the "master"; if 2 weeks is not enough aging for best accuracy with this technique then what is the correct age?

But I have a question on that topic. Are the aged bullets mentioned aged after sizing and lubing?

Good question; I'd like the "master's" answer on that too, just to eliminate the variables as much as possible.

Larry Gibson

I'll throw a curve into this. For my 6.5's the bullets aren't getting sized in my sizer, they are merely getting lubed and gas checked. In bullets that do get some sizing in the sizing die I size right after finish casting. As for aging I've found a big difference. When shot two weeks or before the group, although not horrible, are not nearly as good as aged. Aged seemed to cut the groups in half. I let mine age for months. Those bullets I shot both the 6.5MS and Swede groups were just AC and aged for many months!
I don't see as much difference in aged and not aged in hand guns...talking the normal stuff here revolvers and pistols....not scoped Contenders. Maybe with an accurate scoped Contender one could see the difference.

Joe

[45 2.1]

manleyjt

If aged bullets would do better I can send some from the mould I sent to Larry. They were cast when I received the mould from Garandrus. However, they are not sized or lubed, so I would suspect work softening while sizing/lubing.

Please send them, I wil shoot comparative groups with 2 wk old and aged bullets. Quite frankly I have tested this before and found that after 2 weeks of aging with AC'd bullets accuracy was as good as it would get. However that was wih loads down in or under the RPM threshold not at HV. The "master" has spoken so we will try some aged bullets. This then begs the question of the "master"; if 2 weeks is not enough aging for best accuracy with this technique then what is the correct age?

But I have a question on that topic. Are the aged bullets mentioned aged after sizing and lubing?

Good question; I'd like the "master's" answer on that too, just to eliminate the variables as much as possible.

Larry Gibson

Difficult to answer without knowing how much your sizing your doing, but i've had little trouble with the loverin designs sizing long (three years) after castings. Most of wider banded boolits are lubed and the gas check seated in dies that are about 0.0005" over the correct as cast size, so it has little bearing on that. You can size/lube/GC the boolits you want to age within 12 hours after castings and avoid that problem altogether.

[Pat I.]

Unbelievable. Larry it seems that now you have to wait til June or so before you can do anything. This should be about 10,000 pages by then.

[largom]

Last summer I did some hardness testing on different alloys/boolits that were "air cooled". Along with the other boolits cast I casted some 45-70 boolits for hardness testing. Right after casting I put these 45-70 boolits in my mill and cut a 1/4 in. wide flat on one side. This allowed several test areas on the same boolit when layed in a small v block with the flat up. Hardness was tested with a LBT tester and a Lee tester. All of my tests required 4 weeks ageing before hardness settled to a constant. I also took an aged boolit, tested it on the nose and then cut a flat on it in the mill to see if the hardness was the same inside or if cutting affected the hardness. The hardness was the same as on the nose.

Just putting this out as food for thought.

Larry Miller

[45 2.1]

Unbelievable. Larry it seems that now you have to wait til June or so before you can do anything. This should be about 10,000 pages by then.


Still sowing discord I see.............. even you should know the answer here. You should probably go back to the CBA forum (where you're a moderator and should know better than to do this on someone else's forum) and stop being disruptive here.

[Pat I.]

No discord just commenting on the obvious.

[Larry Gibson]

All

Alright! The "master" has spoken and I've got the answers to the "aged" question and when to GC, size if any (I'm going to a .268 sizer so my 266455 will not get sized and the other bullets minimally if any) and lube. As I have sated several times; this test, actually series of tests, is going to take some time. I know everyone is impatient and I am too. However we all must realise that tests of this type take time to assemble the correct componants, load them correctly, sort out the variables so only one specific this istested for at one time and then to actually run the tests and compile the dta for a report. Realistically I do not expect to complete enough tests until early summer anyways. 45 2.1 says he's been working on this techniqu for many years and starmetal says he's also been at it a long time. We must not expect, even with the benifit of their knowledge, to complete tests like this overnight.

Thus I am asking all to hold back on the personality clashes and comments on this thread. I do not want anyone here to quit. Some of us have already done that (myself included) and that is no way to test, learn and expand our knowledge here. This is going to take time. I started this thread expressly with the intentions of avoiding the pitfalss we all have fallen into on other threads relating to this topic. For the most part those threads ended up locked because of the personal quips bantered back and forh instead of useful information and discussion. We must be patient.

If we not patient and the quips continue I will ask the moderator to temporarily lock this thread until I've completed the tests. I do notwant to do that as I beliee input along the way and after each test will bemuch more benificial. I do this as a last resort to keep this thread from getting locked permanatly and because I believe we are making significant progress with this tecnique and understanding the true natre of it. So pleas, let's keep it polite and focu on facts and meaningful discussion pertinant to shooting cast bullets at HV in the 6.5 Swede. I thank you all for the cooperation shown thus far nd hope it continues.

Larry Gibson

[45nut]

if we not patient and the quips continue i will ask the moderator to temporarily lock this thread until i've completed the tests. I do not want to do that as i believe input along the way and after each test will be much more beneficial. I do this as a last resort to keep this thread from getting locked permanently and because i believe we are making significant progress with this technique and understanding the true nature of it. so please, let's keep it polite and focus on facts and meaningful discussion pertinent to shooting cast bullets at hv in the 6.5 swede. I thank you all for the cooperation shown thus far and hope it continues.


+1000

[StarMetal]

All

Alright! The "master" has spoken and I've got the answers to the "aged" question and when to GC, size if any (I'm going to a .268 sizer so my 266455 will not get sized and the other bullets minimally if any) and lube. As I have sated several times; this test, actually series of tests, is going to take some time. I know everyone is impatient and I am too. However we all must realise that tests of this type take time to assemble the correct componants, load them correctly, sort out the variables so only one specific this istested for at one time and then to actually run the tests and compile the dta for a report. Realistically I do not expect to complete enough tests until early summer anyways. 45 2.1 says he's been working on this techniqu for many years and starmetal says he's also been at it a long time. We must not expect, even with the benifit of their knowledge, to complete tests like this overnight.

Thus I am asking all to hold back on the personality clashes and comments on this thread. I do not want anyone here to quit. Some of us have already done that (myself included) and that is no way to test, learn and expand our knowledge here. This is going to take time. I started this thread expressly with the intentions of avoiding the pitfalss we all have fallen into on other threads relating to this topic. For the most part those threads ended up locked because of the personal quips bantered back and forh instead of useful information and discussion. We must be patient.

If we not patient and the quips continue I will ask the moderator to temporarily lock this thread until I've completed the tests. I do notwant to do that as I beliee input along the way and after each test will bemuch more benificial. I do this as a last resort to keep this thread from getting locked permanatly and because I believe we are making significant progress with this tecnique and understanding the true natre of it. So pleas, let's keep it polite and focu on facts and meaningful discussion pertinant to shooting cast bullets at HV in the 6.5 Swede. I thank you all for the cooperation shown thus far nd hope it continues.

Larry Gibson

Sounds like a plan Larry. Take your time. It does take some time to find that sweet spot. You'll learn stuff along the way in testing.
I believe you may want to settle on one bullet first....like the Kurtz, then when you find a sweet spot for it more along to another. I can tell you in my tests even if the bullets weight the same one sweet spot didn't work for another bullet style.

Carry on, you'll get no arguments from me. Here to help get you to do this.

Joe

[heathydee]

I only had 12 brand new cases left so I trialled two loads of six shots each . During the last week I had replaced the scope on the rifle with a 2-7 power Leupold . This scope is mounted in the forward sight base mount and consequently is too far away from my eye to get a full field of view but that does not matter , because ammunition testing is the name of today's game and having a Leupold on any rifle always gives me a feeling of confidence . Once it is on and screwed down tight there is one less thing to worry about. Since the scope had only been bore sighted , and not wanting to wate any of the test rounds on sighting in , I loaded five rounds in some Norma cases which had been full length resized , trimmed to length and had the primer pockets thoroughly cleaned.
Taking the group I shot last week as a starting point and only wanting to change one thing at a time , I did the cleaning rod measuring procedure , and determined that the overall length of the cartridge could be increased by 2mm or .080" . This left two grease grooves exposed and had the boolit just kissing the start of the rifling.
Because the boolit was further out , that left more room for filler , so I increased the load to 2cc which I weighed this time for reasons of uniformity. 2cc weighs out at 8 grains.
Six cases were loaded with 30 grains of AR2209 and the other six loaded with 31 grains of the same powder .
The five Norma cases for sighting in had 30 gns of AR2209 and because the first shot was fairly close to the aiming point I fired the other four for group.
The temperature was 95 degrees F and the wind was gusting a little but mainly from behind .
The third group fired shows the most promise so far.

[swheeler]

Heath your groups aren't nearly as good as a couple years ago, what did you change? Scot

[StarMetal]

That last group, if you discount that lower out of the group shot, that's pretty good for a Swede at that velocity.

Joe

[heathydee]

Heath your groups aren't nearly as good as a couple years ago, what did you change? Scot


I am asking myself the same question Scot. The boolits are the same . I cast up 3 or 4 hundred in that one batch and still have a few left . The filler is the same . The lube is the same.
Different tin of powder . Brand new cases not fire-formed . Remington cases now . Norma before . Lee dies versus Hornady . Poor record keeping initially. Take your pick.
I have not given up and hope to test another couple of loads later today .
Heath

[StarMetal]

I am asking myself the same question Scot. The boolits are the same . I cast up 3 or 4 hundred in that one batch and still have a few left . The filler is the same . The lube is the same.
Different tin of powder . Brand new cases not fire-formed . Remington cases now . Norma before . Lee dies versus Hornady . Poor record keeping initially. Take your pick.
I have not given up and hope to test another couple of loads later today .
Heath

Well heck Heath, there's some differences right there. Different lot of powder (although that shouldn't make a lot of difference) Cases that weren't fire formed is a biggie in my book, along with case brand change. The dies can make a difference too on what they size the necks down to and expand back up.

I try to stay consistent on cases and I don't switch my dies.

Still that smallest group isn't what I would call bad. You need to find yourself some 06 military cases somehow.

Joe

[swheeler]

I am asking myself the same question Scot. The boolits are the same . I cast up 3 or 4 hundred in that one batch and still have a few left . The filler is the same . The lube is the same.
Different tin of powder . Brand new cases not fire-formed . Remington cases now . Norma before . Lee dies versus Hornady . Poor record keeping initially. Take your pick.
I have not given up and hope to test another couple of loads later today .
Heath

Heath that's quite a few changes from the original, any one alone or in combination could be the fly in the ointment. You made it work before, now you just have to get it all right again. I'll bet this time your notes will be a lot more detailed! Keep us posted, looks promising. Scot

[heathydee]

I had another trip to the range today with results which did not improve on previous efforts . I had loaded the fireformed Remington cases with the same load of AR2209 which gave the best group so far and loaded the same charge weight in some fireformed PMC cases . This 31 grain load gave a six shot group of 2.35 inches from the Remington cases and 2.275 inches from the PMC cases . Remington 2180 fps . PMC 2140 fps . Take the furthest shot out of both groups and the result is 5 out of 6 in around 1.5 inches. All shooting done at a range of 50 meters . Hunting accuracy only .
I tried two more loads where I upped the powder charge to 32 grains and 33 grains in the Remington cases . All remained as before . 8 grains of filler . 3.05 inches overall length . Lube in the grooves and Lee Liquid Alox over all exposed boolit. I might add I have been using a Lee collet neck sizing die and sizing the neck twice 180 degrees apart to try and eliminate mis-alignment . Also a light crimp using a Lee factory crimp die .
The 32 grain load gave a six shot group of 1.725 inches at a speed of 2210 fps .
The 33 grain load gave a six shot group of 2.8 inches at a speed of 2270 fps .

Range conditions were good today . Only about 85 degrees F and with light winds .

Cleaning the rifle revealed no evidence of leading . A squirt of WD40 followed by a couple of patches had the bore back to a pristine condition .

I decided to check that the barrel was still free floating and it was . The action screws were still tight and I pushed a piece of white paper half an inch down the barrel so I could view the end of the bore with the aid of a strong light and a magnifying head-set ; thinking I might have failed to remove some copper fouling after the last time I had been using J Words .

The picture says it all . I will re-crown the barrel in the next few days before attempting any more load development.

[swheeler]

Heath you got gravel on the floorboards of your Land Rover? har,har Looks like its time for brass lap and a brace! Heck you probably got a cordless drill.........

[dubber123]

Heath you got gravel on the floorboards of your Land Rover? har,har Looks like its time for brass lap and a brace! Heck you probably got a cordless drill.........

I just fixed a newer Browning BAR in .270 that had suffered one too many muzzle down on the floorboard trips. I really cringe when I see rifles carried that way, but it's a common practice around here. :roll:

[Turk]

Greeting group, My name is Turk,Iv'e been lurking through all the posts on the Swede I could find for about two months. My daughter bought a M-38 and I thought I would work up so me loads for it,did pretty good up to about 1700 fps then it all went wild.So I have been following the hv posts. Bob and Joe have been helping. Made all the cases from 06 fire formed and fitted to the gun,got the right filler,cut down a cruise missile mold .200 can crimp gas check on old grease groove make a nice 150 gr,lbt lube .268 size. I managed to get some 1.250 groups using Unique at about 1600 fps with no filler. Then I started on the hv loads, the first ones were with H 4350 and filler at 31 gr I got some 10 shot groups around 2.250 at 100 yds more made it worse. Bob and Joe have been coaching me. I can see that Bob's method will work if you have patience and do what he says without any ideas of your own.It will take some time to find the sweet spot. Last trip I started with H4831SC 40 gr the velocity was 2363 with no filler,with 4.2gr filler the velocity was 2460,accuracy was no good all over the place ,so we know how far not to go and will back down as Joe suggested, some where between 34-38 I would think there would be a sweet spot. There are many naysayers that this can be done. With out 45 2.1's method I would say they are right. It can be done you must endever to perservere. pay attention to these guys that have done it years ago. Just because you dont know how or understand what is being done or why doesn't mean it cant be done.if I have success I will report. Searching----Turk

[swheeler]

Interesting TURK keep us posted.

[StarMetal]

Interesting Joe keep us posted.

Why you say that Scot? Turk isn't me I can assure you. A pm to Ken will very by his IP address it isn't me. Sure I've coached him some through pm's. One thing Turk is a good listener and I believe he will get this done, maybe not with the Cruise Missile though.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Turk, even if you don't have success, please report what you've done. That way we can all have a better idea of what makes or doesn't make 45 2.1's method work.

My own testing with the cut-off 150 grain Cruise Missile has been dismal, even with perfectly fitted brass and boolits. That's because I'm not following the rules outlined due to my lack of any single-base rifle powder currently. I can tell you that 414/760 will fling them off a 4X8 backstop at 25 yards without Dacron, then groups 1-1/2" at the same range with the same exact everything else wtih a .7 grain tuft (over 36 grains powder). This proves to me that filler is a huge part of the key. The correct powder and filler indicated by 45 2.1 and others has to be the secret. I DO have 1/2 lb. of the correct filler, just heeding the warnings not to use it with DB powders.

I've shot decent groups in the past with bore-riders sized just over groove diameter and Unique, just not very fast, these guys tell the truth about how tough it is to make this caliber and gun shoot at decent speeds.

Gear

[StarMetal]

Turk, even if you don't have success, please report what you've done. That way we can all have a better idea of what makes or doesn't make 45 2.1's method work.

My own testing with the cut-off 150 grain Cruise Missile has been dismal, even with perfectly fitted brass and boolits. That's because I'm not following the rules outlined due to my lack of any single-base rifle powder currently. I can tell you that 414/760 will fling them off a 4X8 backstop at 25 yards without Dacron, then groups 1-1/2" at the same range with the same exact everything else wtih a .7 grain tuft (over 36 grains powder). This proves to me that filler is a huge part of the key. The correct powder and filler indicated by 45 2.1 and others has to be the secret. I DO have 1/2 lb. of the correct filler, just heeding the warnings not to use it with DB powders.

I've shot decent groups in the past with bore-riders sized just over groove diameter and Unique, just not very fast, these guys tell the truth about how tough it is to make this caliber and gun shoot at decent speeds.

Gear


The correct powder is no secret. You're making assumptions. You were told the slow powder particularly AA 3100. I just happen to use the 4350 because I didn't have anything else on hand that was slower...still don't. Waiting for the distributors to catch up on the powder shortage in my area.

I could have told that cut down Cruise Missile wasn't going to work but I'd got called a smart bunny. To learn to do this start with a better bullet like the Kurtz group buy or a fat 266469, otherwise you're going to waste components.

Joe

[geargnasher]

The correct powder is no secret. You're making assumptions. You were told the slow powder particularly AA 3100. I just happen to use the 4350 because I didn't have anything else on hand that was slower...still don't. Waiting for the distributors to catch up on the powder shortage in my area.

I could have told that cut down Cruise Missile wasn't going to work but I'd got called a smart bunny. To learn to do this start with a better bullet like the Kurtz group buy or a fat 266469, otherwise you're going to waste components.

Joe

Joe, you gotta read my posts better. I said "the correct powder and filler indicated by 45 2.1 and others has to be the secret." You both have told us, I have listened, but there is a major rifle powder shortage in my area, no single base powders anywhere near the correct volume/burn rate are available. Anybody who has read any of these threads knows what the correct powders and filler are to do what you guys are saying you can do.

I just couldn't stand it anymoe, had to go shoot someting, not complaining that it doesn't work, just commenting on how badly things can go wrong ballistically, even when it "should" at least be a decent performer.

What puzzles me, is why do so many people have trouble with the Cruise Missile tumbling? Even at low velocities, well within a "normal" operating rpm, that boolit is a real bear to stablilize. Turk is the first other person I've heard cutting down this mould and making GG 150 grainers just like I did, and we're both STILL having yaw and tumble. Not just bad accuracy, I'm glad I have a safe range at home with a large hill for a safety backstop, these puppies can fly four feet over the berm!

Why is it that a 266469, even poorly fitted, will shoot at least minute of target paper at 100 yards at approaching 2k fps but a shortened CM at even "accurate" velocities won't? Same weight boolit, same alloy, same check, even tried the same load this morning, CM has a mind of it's own. Guess I still have a lot to learn about boolit design.

Gear

[StarMetal]

Joe, you gotta read my posts better. I said "the correct powder and filler indicated by 45 2.1 and others has to be the secret." You both have told us, I have listened, but there is a major rifle powder shortage in my area, no single base powders anywhere near the correct volume/burn rate are available. Anybody who has read any of these threads knows what the correct powders and filler are to do what you guys are saying you can do.

I just couldn't stand it anymoe, had to go shoot someting, not complaining that it doesn't work, just commenting on how badly things can go wrong ballistically, even when it "should" at least be a decent performer.

What puzzles me, is why do so many people have trouble with the Cruise Missile tumbling? Even at low velocities, well within a "normal" operating rpm, that boolit is a real bear to stablilize. Turk is the first other person I've heard cutting down this mould and making GG 150 grainers just like I did, and we're both STILL having yaw and tumble. Not just bad accuracy, I'm glad I have a safe range at home with a large hill for a safety backstop, these puppies can fly four feet over the berm!

Why is it that a 266469, even poorly fitted, will shoot at least minute of target paper at 100 yards at approaching 2k fps but a shortened CM at even "accurate" velocities won't? Same weight boolit, same alloy, same check, even tried the same load this morning, CM has a mind of it's own. Guess I still have a lot to learn about boolit design.

Gear

Well Gear, I've gotten the CM to shoot clean up to little over 2500 fps, but not with the kind of braggin accuracy I like to post here on the board. That was then, not now. Now I'll tell you what it did. I I could keep all my CM loads into the bottom a pop can at 100 yards. Some groups were hovering 1 inch. But I wanted that hole. All these were with the wrong powders too because like I stated my distributors are out of the right powders I need.

All I can say about the CM was it was designed to fit the Swede throat specifically. Oldfeller got a lot of throat casts dimensions and set down to figure out that bullet. By shortening it upset the balance he figured out. Have you notice the extraordinarily long nose that bullet has? Then you go and cut some of base off the bullet and the nose becomes more of the bullet in relations to the bearing bands. I would think that upsets the bullet. It's like a long bore rider, but the nose doesn't fit right like a properly designed bore rider.

As for the 469 I find what you say interesting because I had a Lyman mold that didn't cast them fat enough and even out of a modern tight .264 groove and bore (My 6.5MS) it wouldn't shoot. It wouldn't shoot out of any of my 6.5's. Then I got BaBores recut of that bullet and just initial tests show it is working. His mould drops them much fatter.

Joe

[Turk]

Gear, My cut down cruises are stable at 1450 fps nice round holes and 1 1/4 ' groups they get wild at 2400 fps but the holes are still round. I think to not waste anymore time on them for HV and get the right bullet,there was no leading cast of 1/2-1/2 with lbt lube.---T

[geargnasher]

Gear, My cut down cruises are stable at 1450 fps nice round holes and 1 1/4 ' groups they get wild at 2400 fps but the holes are still round. I think to not waste anymore time on them for HV and get the right bullet,there was no leading cast of 1/2-1/2 with lbt lube.---T

Well that's good news, something else is going on here with what I was trying. Never had leading issues before with this gun, but I was using two lubes and a bore rider and Unique. I'm not convinced this isn't an OK boolit to shoot in my gun, I've done exhaustive throad fitting and case neck fitting as well as having proper case tension, I had to modify parts of three lee die sets and an H&I die to make correctly dimensioned ammo for this gun. I don't know what qualities could possibly be improved to it's shape unless it was more lube grooves or something. Maybe the flat nose is the problem. Like I said, I know I went about it the wrong way, just proved a lot of people right. I'll get some more correct powder and try it with the buffer, I'll bet this boolit will shoot.

Gear

[Turk]

Gear, I dont see why they shouldn't shoot. Mine are 1.080 long with .560 driving bands and a .520 nose area. That seems pretty well balanced. I can swage the nose to what ever fits. I don't think the flat nose matters,I suspect it was put there to increase killing power. I did have one group with 31 gr H4350 and filler that went 5 into 2.475 at 100yds as issue open sights, those went 2112 fps. Not real good but shows promise with more work. This is just like drag racing if you win everybody wants to know how you built your engine,so you tell them in detail,parts,cams,clearances.everything. When they build their engine it doesn't run the same,Why ? tuning we have to tune these loads, It took me a while to learn how to tune a race motor but if you keep at it and study what your doing you will do well.---Turk

[45 2.1]

Yes, it will work. If your doing it your way with no help, it's gonna be really hard on you. It really helps if you know how to read groups to know what to do next. Joe had A LOT of help in that regard (like here is a picture of the group and specifics, what do I do next) and it took him well over a month to hit the first sweet spot. Once you hit the first one, any others are fairly close to it and it becomes easier to transfer what you've learned to other calibers.

[45 2.1]

What puzzles me, is why do so many people have trouble with the Cruise Missile tumbling?

Why is it that a 266469, even poorly fitted, will shoot at least minute of target paper at 100 yards at approaching 2k fps but a shortened CM at even "accurate" velocities won't?

You have to remember that Lee is the producer of the mold (BRP has the drawing now, a little encouragement would get you all a correctly cut mold). Quite a few runs have been made. My molds for the CM were from the original Oldfeller run and are correctly sized. The other runs go up to 0.271" or so. What do you think that did to the nose dimensions? They were too FAT and some of you cut the GC shank and lower band off to shorten them so they would chamber easier, but not fit like they should. That is part of the problem in itself.

[heathydee]

Here are the results of the last trip to the range. The loads tried are pretty much the same as last time but now the rifle is wearing a brand new crown . Because the scope had been removed and the rifle merely bore-sighted , I loaded 10 Norma cases with the 31 grain load with the view of using the first five for sighting and the next five for group before moving on to the two Remington case loads ; one with 31 grains of AR2209 and one with 32 . There are no velocity measurements because the wind blew the chronograph over . I must be getting better at bore sighting because no scope adjustments were needed for the first group . I shifted the point of impact left a touch for subsequent groups .
The first group is in the middle of the target with the first shot out of a clean , cold barrel marked. I was fairly pleased and was looking forward to punching another three tight little groups before racing home and posting about my success when the heavy boot of reality trod on my aspirations .
The second group is top right. The first shot of that group is the lowest one , made immediately after the scope adjustment . In the past I have noticed on occasion that a scope may need a couple of shots to settle in after having its knobs tampered with . Perhaps this is the case here . Not an excuse . An observation.
The two groups with the Remington cases are woeful . No excuses there.

Examining the cases showed the primers of the Norma cases starting to flatten . The Remington cases still had primers which were rounded . Weighing the respective cases showed the Norma cases being 10 grains heavier . They must have less internal space and because of that are exhibiting signs of pressure earlier than the Remington cases .
I had the idea that lube might be failing as the barrel heated . Ambient temperature at the range was 85 degrees F and the barrel gets hot quickly . Cleaning the bore later was no different than usual . A patch soaked in WD40 followed by a couple of clean ones was all that was needed . No evidence of leading yet.
I feel knowledge is being gained as I progress with this project . The Norma load will be duplicated and tried again as it shows the most promise so far.

[StarMetal]

Dee,

That crown looks really good now, nice job. Hey on the lube I don't clean my barrel. I am using different lube then you which I make and that's my soap lube. Once I get it seasoned, plus the fact that buffer cleans it, I don't run a cleaning patch or anything through it.

I noticed when shooting certain powders that the barrel heat is lots different. If I'm not mistaken, and I don't use this in the Swede by the way, Varget is hot burning. The one I have tried in the Swede is surplus 860 and it's fairly hot burning too. I don't have any bore problems with it though.

Keep up the good work and you have perfected bore sighting.

Joe

[geargnasher]

My local gun store got in the promised shipment of IMR and Hodgdon Rifle powders today, so I'm back in business for my Swede and .30-'06 testing.

I did some volume/weight checking with a fireformed cases and six different medium/slow rifle powders and think that there's another fly in the ointment with the 150 grainers, has to do with getting the correct volume in the case for the filler ("dime's" thickness below body/shoulder junction) and still be under starting loads for any powder I've tried. The closest is H1000, starting load is about 46 grains, the correct volume seems to be around 47 grains for the brass I'm using (LC 67).

I'd like to use a lot less powder than that to start off, but that obviously increases filler volume, which with this stuff likely increases pressure. Seems like a catch-22. Too much powder, too much pressure. Too little powder, too much filler, too much pressure (RIGHT, Joe?).

This is one of the things I think will come of Larry's tests with the BPI Original buffer, discovering what is the pressure/volume relationship of this stuff in a Swede. Perhaps that could establish some working parameters for powder burn rate work.

Data looks much better for the 120 to 130 grain weights. I see why the Kurtz and 268469 keep being recommended.

Gear

[heathydee]

The latest results . Fifteen empty , fireformed Norma cases were loaded up with the load which has shown the most promise so far . All the information is on the target other than the fact the loaded rounds were given a light crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die . The rifle was allowed to cool down to the ambient temperature of about 80 degrees F between groups and each shot in the group was spaced about 90 seconds apart . A gusting left to right cross wind did not help .

Not too bad . Thirteen out of the fifteen shots were under an inch at 50 meters . I regard that as acceptable hunting accuracy .

[Turk]

Gear: Consider this when we cut off the back off the cruise missile the oversize nose contacts in the lead it doesn't plug into the bore,so we have the area between the contact point on the nose and the first band unsupported. WE CUT THE WRONG END OFF !! Make a stop collet for the bullet ,size and gas check bullet put in lathe cut off at 1.0" then champher nose at 13 degrees back to half of 1st driving band. This will seat at case neck base and fill the throat like its suppose to.the cut down 1st band engraves the leade. makes a 133 gr bullet. No pesky nose to fit or slump on ignition. What do you think 45 2.1? right track,wrong track. Regards --Turk

[45 2.1]

Gear: Consider this when we cut off the back off the cruise missile the oversize nose contacts in the lead it doesn't plug into the bore,so we have the area between the contact point on the nose and the first band unsupported. WE CUT THE WRONG END OFF !! Make a stop collet for the bullet ,size and gas check bullet put in lathe cut off at 1.0" then champher nose at 13 degrees back to half of 1st driving band. This will seat at case neck base and fill the throat like its suppose to.the cut down 1st band engraves the leade. makes a 133 gr bullet. No pesky nose to fit or slump on ignition. What do you think 45 2.1? right track,wrong track. Regards --Turk

When this was designed, Oldfeller and I did a lot of throat slugs. We never saw one that wouldn't take the boolit as designed. You notice I said designed, NOT as cut by Lee. I have no trouble putting the correct sized boolit in any Swede i've tried. There may be some out there that are tight.... a possible result of a rebarrel and not being throated for the Swede military bullets or who knows what. All the Swede designs have approximately the same bearing body length (which would allow you to do as you say).... the noses are different though. The CM nose was supposed to just touch the lands. I think the problems are from out of spec molds.

[geargnasher]

Turk, I didn't get the measurement of the rifling taper in the leade on my rifles, but I agree wity your assessment. I turned the nose down different amounts on numerous boolits with a drill press and file and pretty much figured out what was going on. With the fatter (as 45 2.1 pointed out) boolits overall from my mould, the boolit actually fits my gun extremely well when just seated deeper. The front edge of the nose seats against the lands pretty nicely (but not very far into the lands as it was designed to) and is supported evenly all the way to within a lube groove length of the case mouth. To accomplish this fit I leave the bands at .2715" except for the front one which gets .2670" and the second which gets sized in between that and as-cast to give me a tapered band that fits the freebore in that area, same as all the other bands in their respective seating areas.

Doing multiple "magic marker" chambering tests I get shiny bands, a shiny nose with slight land marks, and at least 2/3 of the nose bearing surface supported (missing a bit in front of the first driving band, but only 1.5 lube grooves wide that is not in contact).

To seat this boolit any deeper requires a hammer, as all the bearing surfaces come into contact virtually at once. It is at this OAL that I cut the boolit mould down to have the proper seating depth.

I can get it to seat deeper if I turn the nose and the first three driving bands, but why? The fit is just as good as it is if I just cut off the back.

Gear

[StarMetal]

Turk, I didn't get the measurement of the rifling taper in the leade on my rifles, but I agree wity your assessment. I turned the nose down different amounts on numerous boolits with a drill press and file and pretty much figured out what was going on. With the fatter (as 45 2.1 pointed out) boolits overall from my mould, the boolit actually fits my gun extremely well when just seated deeper. The front edge of the nose seats against the lands pretty nicely (but not very far into the lands as it was designed to) and is supported evenly all the way to within a lube groove length of the case mouth. To accomplish this fit I leave the bands at .2715" except for the front one which gets .2670" and the second which gets sized in between that and as-cast to give me a tapered band that fits the freebore in that area, same as all the other bands in their respective seating areas.

Doing multiple "magic marker" chambering tests I get shiny bands, a shiny nose with slight land marks, and at least 2/3 of the nose bearing surface supported (missing a bit in front of the first driving band, but only 1.5 lube grooves wide that is not in contact).

To seat this boolit any deeper requires a hammer, as all the bearing surfaces come into contact virtually at once. It is at this OAL that I cut the boolit mould down to have the proper seating depth.

I can get it to seat deeper if I turn the nose and the first three driving bands, but why? The fit is just as good as it is if I just cut off the back.

Gear

Time to just leave that mold alone or sell it someone that has a very fat Jap or Carcano throat and bore.

Joe

[swheeler]

Larry should be about ready for round two of his tests. I'm sure it will be the "new and improved Larry" with fresh Arizona tan from roaming the desert blasting various small furry critters with hunks of lead! Warmth and sunshine, man that sounds good!

[PAT303]

Well I had a go today,CBE 150grn over 35-37grns of 2213SC (H4831) and puff lon filler,they shot everywhere,same boolit over 40grns of 2217(H1000) with PL filler for the same result.The boolits weren't heat treated and cut ragged holes were heat treated boolits over 18grns of 2400 shot 3/4 inch groups with neat holes.All the shots were easy to extract,I'd go as far as saying I couldn't tell the difference between any of the loads,the 2217 loads did feel really nice to shoot,just a slow push but the groups weren't groups.I'll go back to heat treated boolits and try again,I'll also try 2209 (4350). Pat

[heathydee]

The same 15 cases as used previously were reloaded with a slightly different load . The powder charge was upped a grain , and a grain more filler was used . The topping off the case with filler involves pouring and ramming to get it all in , and then seating the boolit completes the process . No signs of pressure yet . The fired primers are nicely rounded . This batch of cases has expanded to fit the chamber well . The action closed up on all of them with a little "feel".
This load had all of the lube in the exposed grooves wiped out and all exposed lead lubed with Lee Liquid Alox .
The first group was fired from a clean barrel and subsequent groups tightened up . That makes me wonder if it is worth cleaning the barrel . There has been no leading so far . I might not clean it for the next test and see if it makes a difference .
Pleasingly there were no fliers in this test . The temperature has dropped around here this last week so the barrel was cooling down quickly . I was firing five shot groups over two minutes or so and giving the rifle 10 minutes to cool down between groups . Still plagued by gusty crosswinds however.

[swheeler]

Heath looking good, group #2 is very nice at that velocity. I think the next test is, whats it do at 100 yards.

[heathydee]

Heath looking good, group #2 is very nice at that velocity. I think the next test is, whats it do at 100 yards.

50 meters . 55 yards .
The way the wind has been around here lately it is not worth testing at the longer range . I want to test the load not how well I can shoot in windy conditions . Guessing the ballistic co-efficient based on a comparablely sized RN bullet and plugging that number into the tables shows it can be blown off course a surprising amount . Try 2 inches at 100 yards with a 10 mph crosswind .
I will stay at 50 meters until I get a good day.

[longbow]

heathydee:

Just an observation.

You mention coating the nose of the boolit with LLA. I was shooting .303 loaded with Lyman 314299's with just lube grooves filled and was getting resonable accuracy then decided to coat the nose with lube ~ after all if a little is good then more must be better! Well, accuracy deteriorated so I wiped the noses off and saw an immediate improvement.

That tickled my memory and I recalled reading about shutzen shooters who were careful about only using "just enough" lube to avoid leading as as too much would produce bad accuracy. The philosophy seemed to be that the boolit needs a bit of bite on the rifling and too much lube allows it to "float".

Just a thought.

Longbow

[Larry Gibson]

heathydee

I understand not wanting to test in the wind but testing at 500 meters cand also give you false information. This is especially the case if your bullets are susceptable to the RPM threshold. I ran a test at the request of a member to prove or disprove the fact that above the RPM threshold group dispersion was non-linear. The test was with a .308W loaded with 311291s at 1912 fps and at 2500 fps.

The 1912 fps load produced 10 shot groups at 50, 100 and 200 yards of .7", 1.3" and 2.5" respectively. That illustrates pretty good linear group dispersion as range increases.

The 2500 fps load produced 10 shot groups at 50, 100 and 200 yards of 2.55", 4.7" and 14.5" restively. That illustrates non-linear dispersion. All the holes were quite round indicating the bullets were flying point on. However it is also obvious the bullets with this load had lost axial stability from the increased RPM (179,000 RPM for this load vs 136,400 RPM for the 1912 fps load).

The point some are making is that at 50 meters a load may look good but if tested at 100 meters it may not be so good after all. Keep testing though as the more of us in this game the better.

Larry Gibson

[PAT303]

Going by this it seems that 2209(4350) is the go as my rifle wouldn't shoot worth a damn with anything powder slower. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

Going by this it seems that 2209(4350) is the go as my rifle wouldn't shoot worth a damn with anything powder slower. Pat

Pat

My initial testing will be with 4350 because that's what starmetal used, 3100 because 45 2.1 says to use it, H4831SC because it has worked well in other HV cast loads for me and RL19 because it worked well in HV loads for Bass and I with his LBT bullet. I will run each through an intitial test to dermine the amounts necessary for 2200 -2300 fps with the original filler. Then I will tweek the charges and amount of filler in 1 or 2 tenth increments. I've cast a bunch of the 130 gr Kurz, courtesy Jeremy's mould, and 266455s and will let them age 30+ days. I will cast more and WQ them when I return in 9 days. There is a Cruize mould on the way and I will cast a bunch of them also. I've not recieved any of Starmetals bullets yet but there is time, no hurry. I've only about 200 6.5 GCs left and have 2K back ordered, hope they get here within the next 30 days. I have recieved the original buffer from BPI. I also have the .268 sizer from Pat. Loading and shooting should go fast and furious (just a quip) the last week of March and into April.

That's the plan.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Larry sounds like you've got the game plan all laid out. Hope Joe will send some of the bullets he used so we can at least have the BHN number. I want to see the BC of this short little flat nosed bullet at 2300 fps too, should clear up some questions I have. I know your busy so not trying to push, you know just like a kid couple days before Christmas, the anticipation is killing me! I'll be a good kid and patiently wait. Please can I open just one present, please.

[scrapcan]

Larry

I have not gotten the aged bullets in a box to you yet. If you don't come up with gas checks I have some hornady that I woudl send along to aid in testing. I will hold up on the aged bullets and gas checks till I hear form you.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry

I have not gotten the aged bullets in a box to you yet. If you don't come up with gas checks I have some hornady that I woudl send along to aid in testing. I will hold up on the aged bullets and gas checks till I hear form you.

PM sent with address.

Larry Gibson

[scrapcan]

Got the pm Larry. Still had the address so I will follow instructions in the pm.

[largom]

Couple hundred Hornady checks coming your way Larry.

Larry Miller

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks guys, the suport and response has been tremendous:-)

Larry Gibson

[heathydee]

I have been out to the range today and tried the same load as before at 100 meters.
Although the temperature was quite high the wind behaved for once . 10 to 15 mph but from behind and inconsequential in the scheme of things . The same 15 cases as before were used .

Nine of the first ten shots clustered nicely into a group of 1.25 inches . The flier was the fourth shot ; low and right about 2 inches away from the group. The last five shots went everywhere and opened the group up to about 3.5 inches . Today every shot went over the chronograph and the velocities ranged from 2206 to 2225 fps which was pleasing. I was pretty disgusted and did not even bother to walk down and get the target . I was hoping to wrap up my part in this thread today but it looks like more testing awaits unless I want to let the thing beat me.

[scrapcan]

heathydee,

thanks for doing some work for the rest of us.

[swheeler]

Heath; thanks for giving 100 a try, not what you wanted I know, but hey you got an excuse to shoot the Swede some more. I appreciate your honesty in reporting the facts, I'm sure others do also. Scot

[PAT303]

Heath,my boolits are now aged a month so I'll get a bottle of 2209 and give them a try next week.I've been busy with muzzleloaders the last fortnight as our Nationals are comming up. Pat

[Turk]

Hello group: I went to the range yesterday to see if the cataract surgery on my right eye helped any,Things are a lot brighter and clearer,so I thought I'd run some Swede loads. I had shot some H 4831sc at 40 gr with filler in Jan they went 2363 with no filler2442 with filler,not to dangerous of an increase with the filler. They were all over the place nice round holes tho. Yesterday I was trying H4831sc at 35.5 gr and 5.8gr filler went 2275, 36gr and 5.5gr filler went 2280,36.5gr and 5.3gr filler went 2291. 37gr and 5gr filler went 2278 strange .5 more went slower,must be a filler compression thing. I was using the lee CM cut to 150 gr, All the holes were nice and round no tipping,but they went everywhere. I have now tryed H4831sc from 40gr to 35.5gr in .5gr steps . No good for me, Will continue going lower and report back. Another 6.5 fool----Turk---PS M-39 Finn shot real well .895 8 shot group 100 yds.

[PAT303]

I think 4831SC is too slow,my loads were the same,round holes but no group. Pat

[heathydee]

The same 15 cases were loaded again with the only difference being the over-all length increased by 25 thousandths of an inch . No more than four shots were fired at a time before allowing the barrel to cool . The barrel was well cleaned after the last range outing with no evidence of leading , which leads me to suspect that the patchy performance as the barrel heated up last time was caused by the lube failing to some degree . It might benefit from being stiffened up with the addition of more beeswax for hotter days .
One point I feel is necessary to bring up is that the shoulders of all the cases appear to be getting pushed forward with every loading . This batch of cases have only been reloaded five times since full length resizing and yet they are extremely difficult to chamber despite the fact that every primer has been inspected for signs of high pressure ; none of which have revealed themselves . Every primer has been well rounded after firing and the effort of lifting the bolt has been proportional to the effort required to close it. A sticky case upon chambering has been a sticky case upon extraction. By the way , every case has been trimmed with one of those Lee Case Trimmer gadgets after every firing .
I am done with this experiment . I draw no conclusions only present my results . Personally I am happy to go hunting medium game with the load as shown as long as shots are not taken at ranges in excess of 150 meters or so .

[mpmarty]

F
Fellows I'm replacing that my last post with this link:

http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/1219.htm

Error 404 - File Not Found

ASTM cannot find the requested document: http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/1219.htm
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Visit our home page or site map to find what you are looking for, or go back to the referring page.

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[StarMetal]

Error 404 - File Not Found

ASTM cannot find the requested document: http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/1219.htm
This page does not exist at the specified address. Please check the URL and try again.

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They pulled that page. What it was about was forensics on shotshell buffer and how far those micro beads will penetrate clothing and the the pattern they spread out too. They use recovered buffer for figuring out some of the stuff in the shooting at crime scenes where shotguns were used. I thought it was interesting how far those little biddy pieces of plastic penetrated clothing which was 25 to 30 feet if I remember correctly.

[swheeler]

As far as I know buffered shot loads use a shot cup, so yes the buffer would travel further undamaged by exposure to powder gases and carried with pellets until wad opens and falls away.

[StarMetal]

As far as I know buffered shot loads use a shot cup, so yes the buffer would travel further undamaged by exposure to powder gases and carried with pellets until wad opens and falls away.

It's not about how they travel down the barrel, it's how something so light, so affected by air drag, can still penetrate clothing at an amazing distance...but more so about helping forensic scientist gather information at a crime scene. Doesn't matter if they are exposed to powder gases because powder gases apparently don't do any harm to the plastic shell case or more so the plastic shotwad, albeit a different plastic.

So now this is off topic and to admit the truth I have forgotten my original intention of the article.

[StarMetal]

This is also posted in my jug thread:

Fellows, while many of you may have thought I wasn't doing anything with the Swede, I've actually been out testing and testing and testing...trying to find the sweet spot with different powders. No I still haven't gotten any Accurate 3100, but I did get some H4831, Reloader 22, and Vihtavour N160.

Now before I begin I'd like to say I'm getting fed up with some of the members here accusing me of lying. Mainly Mr swheeler. I get these rotten pm's from him to that effect. I can't understand it as he and I were good friends. At any rate that's between he and I and what you will get here in this report is no fancy book size post from Larry Gibson with his fancy Oehler. You're going to get a condensed to the point honest report.

Okay, the target shown was shot today with five rounds each, one set loaded with 35 grains of Reloader 22, the other five set loaded with 35 grains of N160. Both had the shot buffer in them, the brass was 06 WCC53, and primers Wolf Large Rifle. The bore was cleaned before the shooting. On the group at the upper right was the first shot from the clean barrel. That group is 1 inch. there are two flyers low left. Both these loads shoot higher then my 31 grain 4350 load and they should because they are faster!!!!! Yes you read that right. They are clocking over 2400 fps. No chrono pics, don't believe, tough horse hockey.

Now some more interesting information. Being both those powders are slower then the recommended 4831 and especially the Accurate 3100 by 45.2.1...I did with the first test loads load them as he had specified with the powder a dime thickness below the case wall/body junction and the rest buffer. I had told 45.2.1 that they didn't group well, especially the N160 loads, but they seemed to be really cracking along pretty good. Well I was right. I loaded some for the chrono and they were doing 2879 fps with the N160 powder. Get this, they were staying on the paper, but the group was terrible. They didn't keyhole, they didn't strip and lead the bore, and they didn't fly off into wonder wonder land. This was with AC 50/50 alloy.

So now I'll close in with minute increment changes in the powder to tighten that group. So now we're up to little over 2400 fps with accuracy.

Again I apologize for what seems like arrogance or anger in this post, but you fellows really don't know how much flack I receive in pm's and emails. Now the target:

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/N160R22Swede.jpg

[swheeler]

Joe; I never said you were lieing, I asked several questions about your scope and trajectory, something just didn't compute. You said it was a Burris B-Plex, and I've used one @ 300 yds when zeroed at 100 yds with guns that shoot a lot FLATTER than the load you posted for 6.5 Swede, then you said it was a Tasco mil-dot scope, not a Burris. All I did was question some of your claims, geez lighten up guy!

How far was this target shot at?

[swheeler]

The same 15 cases were loaded again with the only difference being the over-all length increased by 25 thousandths of an inch . No more than four shots were fired at a time before allowing the barrel to cool . The barrel was well cleaned after the last range outing with no evidence of leading , which leads me to suspect that the patchy performance as the barrel heated up last time was caused by the lube failing to some degree . It might benefit from being stiffened up with the addition of more beeswax for hotter days .
One point I feel is necessary to bring up is that the shoulders of all the cases appear to be getting pushed forward with every loading . This batch of cases have only been reloaded five times since full length resizing and yet they are extremely difficult to chamber despite the fact that every primer has been inspected for signs of high pressure ; none of which have revealed themselves . Every primer has been well rounded after firing and the effort of lifting the bolt has been proportional to the effort required to close it. A sticky case upon chambering has been a sticky case upon extraction. By the way , every case has been trimmed with one of those Lee Case Trimmer gadgets after every firing .
I am done with this experiment . I draw no conclusions only present my results . Personally I am happy to go hunting medium game with the load as shown as long as shots are not taken at ranges in excess of 150 meters or so .

Heath; I would take it hunting too, very good and thanks for your post, looks like the rpm's are doing you in though.

[StarMetal]

Joe; I never said you were lieing, I asked several questions about your scope and trajectory, something just didn't compute. You said it was a Burris B-Plex, and I've used one @ 300 yds when zeroed at 100 yds with guns that shoot a lot FLATTER than the load you posted for 6.5 Swede, then you said it was a Tasco mil-dot scope, not a Burris. All I did was question some of your claims, geez lighten up guy!

How far was this target shot at?

I shoot lots of scoped rifles. My 6.5 Grendel AR15 has the Burris on it, then I scoped the Swede with the Tasco which is very much like the Burris and I mistakenly called it the Burris on the Swede which I owed up to the mistake and corrected it. You've given me some static in pm's about questioning me (and I notice never questioning 45.2.1) if I really done this.

To get back on topic this last test here is an honest report and you'll notice that it's not a ragged hole group, but I still reported it.

So you're the one that had said you took my advice and threw in the towel about fighting with members on here, so what do you say we both throw in the towel and patch up our differences???

[swheeler]

I have NO PROBLEM with that, never had a problem with you, just a question? How far was this target shot at?

[StarMetal]

I have NO PROBLEM with that, never had a problem with you, just a question? How far was this target shot at?

This target was 100 yards. I didn't mention that because all my paper targets are tested at that distance. The rifle is sighted for that 4350 powder load dead zero at 100 yards and that's the load I shot at 300 yards. Notice just a change of powder and little more velocity raised the group a lot and to the right. I'll tweak this load and it shrinks and hold consistant I'll resight to it and use it for my go to load.

[swheeler]

OK Joe. There should be some pressure trace data coming soon from Larry, then we'll also have more targets to compare with yours and Heaths, more is better RIGHT?

[StarMetal]

OK Joe. There should be some pressure trace data coming soon from Larry, then we'll also have more targets to compare with yours and Heaths, more is better RIGHT?

Yes more is better and I wish some of the other members would give this a spin too. They have the loading technique now and I've shown three loads are working for me for my swede and those recapped are the 31 grains of 4350, 35 grains of Reloader 22, and 35 grains of N160. All in WCC 06 brass and with my aluminum gas checks and own lube.

I have a pretty good idea of the pressure especially after shooting those 2879 fps loads the other day. I didn't get web bulging nor excessive flat primer or hard bolt lift. Speaking of web bulging, that case I posted while back that shoulder split and web bulged, well 45.2.1 and I are now thinking that was a defective case. Haven't had it happen since and certainly didn't have it happen with a much hotter load..the 2879 fps load...with the same brass.

[swheeler]

okie-dokie then

[45 2.1]

OK Joe. There should be some pressure trace data coming soon from Larry, then we'll also have more targets to compare with yours and Heaths, more is better RIGHT?

My...... I'll repeat just to make it CLEAR. If you aren't at the sweet spot..... where you get accuracy and velocity.... your not going to tell anybody much of anything. This whole thing is about getting accuracy at high velocity. Any attempt showing something else is just subterfuge.

[StarMetal]

Just to show you fellows how touchy this caliber is for cast I just went out and shot some loads with 34 grains of H4831 to give it another fair shake. No good. Now you seen the earlier group with the R22 and N160, well these 34 grain loads of H4831 went into a round FIVE inch group. I chronographed them too and they were doing 2376 which you see is right in the sweet spot ball park velocity...but no go with that powder.

All we need to see are the loads, the velocity, and the group sizes. That's it...that's all other's need to know to find their Swede's sweet spot.

[swheeler]

Uhhhhh, what happened to the DANGER, pressure spikes caused by using this buffer? That is why I want pressure trace data, and I'm guessing others too.

[StarMetal]

Uhhhhh, what happened to the DANGER, pressure spikes caused by using this buffer? That is why I want pressure trace data, and I'm guessing others too.

Now you're making up stuff. I never said anything about pressure spikes, you did. We said it increases pressures because it changes the internal capacity of the case and the powder has the additional weight of the buffer to push along with the bullet...in addition trying to push the buffer through a bottleneck. Another thing is that if the cases are left loaded for a long period of time the buffer becomes somewhat a solid plug. Of course you're the expert on this. I'm sure professor Gibson told you all about this since the two of you developed this technique. I also enjoy how you speak for "everyone". As of lately everyone in this thread is you, myself, 45.2.1 and Healthdee. Even the professor hasn't been in it lately.

[swheeler]

Okie-dokie Air Bender, I'll wait for some facts from Larry.

[StarMetal]

Okie-dokie Air Bender, I'll wait for some facts from Larry.

You know Scot, if it wasn't for me this loading technique would have never gotten posted because once I started the Jug thread then 45.2.1 jumped in and we together explained it. All that has turned out is that a bunch of you are {edit} and do nothing, but stir the trouble pot. On top of that you and your wonderful Larry Gibson have never done this and here's the amazing part...now you two are the Holy Grail authorities on it. To even prove that you just posted I'll wait for some facts from Larry. What facts can he give until he accomplished it and with more then one powder..heck throw in another caliber. Remember I've done this with a fast twist 6.5x54MS and a fast twist 6.5 Grendel. 45.2.1 and I have given you all the facts you need. Fact remains, 45.2.1 and I have done this..you and Larry have not. As I've said, you two are the authorities on it now. You still won't do it after Larry posts his Encyclopedia Britannica pressure tests.

[David2011]

Hi. My name is David and I shot J-word bullets through my 6.5x55.

Hope I'm not hijacking here. After talking to a good riflesmith I made some changes to the '98 Mauser based rifle I built last year. The rifle was originally an 8mm '98 Mauser. Our local college offers gunsmithing courses so I enrolled. After stripping the gun down to a bare receiver it got the whole treatment- built a mandrel and trued the receiver, forged the bolt handle, new barrel, fitted and chambered it in 6.5x55, new stock, scope mount, rings and scope, pillar and glass bedded the receiver, Timney trigger, lots of machining on the trigger guard to lose the military look and a good polish and hot blue job. I tried to make a nice rifle.

The performance was disappointing. Plenty good for hogs or deer but I thought it could be better. I shot some Wolf Gold and surplus ammo to break in the barrel and to have reloadable brass. The groups were almost 2" at 100 yd. Some reloaded 120 gr pointed soft points got down to about 1.25" after about 120 rounds. I'm really a pistol shooter; just learning to shoot and work on rifles. The riflesmith told me I needed to do several things and I did everything he suggested. Among his suggestions, I only sized the brass enough to tighten the necks. I don't have a neck sizing die so just did a partial size. He said I needed to recut the factory crown as his experience with the particular brand of barrel I used told him it was probably cut concentric with the OD of the barrel rather than the bore. I recut it with a recessed flat target crown. While I was reloading I decided to punch up the velocity a little. I went from 34 to 36 gr of H4895- still well within the published range. Next trip to the range my best group of 3 measured just .324". Would have shot a full 5 shot group but after sighting in again I only had enough ammo for a 3 shot group. Still, I was elated with the results. I think the significant changes were the powder increase and the recrowning. I'm guessing the partial sizing had little or no impact because the 120 gr PSP bullet can't be seated anywhere near the leade. It takes a 140 gr or heavier bullet to seat near the rifling. I loaded a few newly purchased Sierra Matchking 142 gr HPBTs with a starting load of 34 gr of H4895. The cases were already full length sized and the powder charge was at the minimum. The bullets were seated long, almost touching the rifling. Accuracy was pretty good with 1 flyer and the rest inside an inch but just barely. I think the 142s would benefit from cases that filled the chamber and a little more powder. None of the loads showed any signs of pressure and the primers were all still rounded at the corner. I'm going to reduce the headspace to the minimum for the go gage per the riflesmith's recommendation. Our instructor had suggested cutting the chamber until the bolt would just engage the lugs on the no-go for ease of feeding and to make it more tolerant of various ammo. Since I'm rolling my own I'll go with minimum headspace in the future.

Once I've ironed out the variables I'm going to try some cast boolits.

David

[PAT303]

Do us a favour Joe and brush off the critisism,I am very happy that you and 45.2.1 have posted up your info and it is us that has to now show what we can do.After the National shoot I'm going too I will be up to my ears in swede development and I am looking forward to it and posting up my results.Mate critics are water off a ducks back. Pat

[Pat I.]

SM instead of starting a two front war why don't you stir it up in your 6.5 thread in the Cast Boolit section and leave this one alone.

[45 2.1]

Okie-dokie Air Bender, I'll wait for some facts from Larry.

Lets consider some things......... there are a few thousand ways to do this wrong........... only a few ways to do it right (that is getting accuracy and high velocity at the same time). If Larry doesn't get accuracy and high velocity together, just what "facts" are we getting? The pressure traces should be each way (up and down) from a proven accurate high velocity load.......... that would have some worth. Pressure traces from an somewhat accurate medium to high velocity load are NOT reprenstative of what has been already done. The question is not whether Larry can give data from his fancy chrono, but whether he can duplicate the results shown by Joe and then give data on those given results, (not from results which don't come up to whats been given by Joe). This method isn't easy to understand or do either as most have found out.

[StarMetal]

Do us a favour Joe and brush off the critisism,I am very happy that you and 45.2.1 have posted up your info and it is us that has to now show what we can do.After the National shoot I'm going too I will be up to my ears in swede development and I am looking forward to it and posting up my results.Mate critics are water off a ducks back. Pat

Well put Pat. You're the first person that has showed appreciation. For that I thank you. I've given three powders now that work. I hope that you can tweak them for you rifle and able to do it.

[357maximum]

Okie-dokie Air Bender, I'll wait for some facts from Larry.

See rules of engagement concerning personal attacks in the Terms of Service please. This is not the only post that comes off this way to me....but this one does spell it out with no interpretation neccessary. Anymore of this from anyone will lead to yet another 6.5 thread being shown the lock. PERIOD

[StarMetal]

I was out with the Swede again today and I used that same load of 35 grains of R22 and 35 grains of N160 except I exchanged the group buy Kurtz with BaBore's remake of the same bullet. I believe this to be the first shooting posted of his bullet. Where as the Swede like the original Kurtz with both powders, it favored the R22 load with BaBore's bullet. In fact I believe it shot a smaller group with it excluding the first clean bore fouling shot which is the most top one in group.

Buckshot: New targets, this time I bought the ones with those 3 35 caliber clean cut holes on the left instead of the right. [smilie=l:

Here's the target and you can see how the rifle didn't like the N160:

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/BaBoreKurt.jpg

[robertbank]

:pHey Joe it is "Horse Puckey" not "Horse Hockey". Refers to frozen horse poop used by kids in the winter to play street hockey in the days of horse drawn milk and bread wagons up here in the Great White North. Made decent pucks until spring arrived.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

:pHey Joe it is "Horse Puckey" not "Horse Hockey". Refers to frozen horse poop used by kids in the winter to play street hockey in the days of horse drawn milk and bread wagons up here in the Great White North. Made decent pucks until spring arrived.

Take Care

Bob

Hey Bob,

How are you doing? Bob I used that because that's what old Colonel Potter use to say on the old TV shot MASH. Remember that? I'm positive that's what he said on the show. I'll have to dig into that on the internet, who knows maybe they have info on it.

Bob,

I did look on the net and lo and behold he had a bunch of saying and Horse Hockey was one. Check what all he used here:

http://4077th_mash_1.tripod.com/potter_quotes.htm

Sorry about off topic guys but Bob brought up something interesting.

[robertbank]

Hey Bob,

How are you doing? Bob I used that because that's what old Colonel Potter use to say on the old TV shot MASH. Remember that? I'm positive that's what he said on the show. I'll have to dig into that on the internet, who knows maybe they have info on it.

Bob,

I did look on the net and lo and behold he had a bunch of saying and Horse Hockey was one. Check what all he used here:

http://4077th_mash_1.tripod.com/potter_quotes.htm

Sorry about off topic guys but Bob brought up something interesting.
Well it is a diversion to all this serious stuff. Potter never played Street Hockey or at least the writers never did. Trust me it truely is Horse Pucky. Made for some intersting goal tending if the puck was fresh, if you know what I mean.:)

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

Well it is a diversion to all this serious stuff. Potter never played Street Hockey or at least the writers never did. Trust me it truely is Horse Pucky. Made for some intersting goal tending if the puck was fresh, if you know what I mean.:)

Take Care

Bob

More then likely you are right Bob. We know how TV...they probably doctored that up for the show. At any rate either of are less offensive then the other word they substitute.

[looseprojectile]

As per Pat I I feel that I am in the twilight zone.
After reading twelve pages of entries in this thread I just may have to do my own loads and tests to sort it all out. I will start with a full case of very slow powder [thunderbird 5010] no filler, and progress from there. I will add shotgun filler to my shopping list. I'd hate to think someone would suspect I was loading shotgun shells. I have a hundred new beautiful Lapua cases to sacrifice. I think reforming old military 0-6 cases is way too much work.
Oh, and I only have the Old Feller cruise missle and three Swede mausers, iron sights, to play with. If I can get any really good groups I will post the load here. If I don't I won't.:coffee:
All I have gained from this thread is the desire and resolve to shoot the cruise missle accurately at more than 2000 fps. I never have been one to follow directions :veryconfu.
Life is good

[PAT303]

Both the 6.5 threads have gone the same way,to many experts passing on knowledge that is not based on actual shooting.There has been only a few people posting up results from load development and a heap based on BS. Pat

[Pat I.]

Not having misguided hero worship and pointing out wrong information and numerous inconsistencies shouldn't be construed as a heap of BS

[StarMetal]

As per Pat I I feel that I am in the twilight zone.
After reading twelve pages of entries in this thread I just may have to do my own loads and tests to sort it all out. I will start with a full case of very slow powder [thunderbird 5010] no filler, and progress from there. I will add shotgun filler to my shopping list. I'd hate to think someone would suspect I was loading shotgun shells. I have a hundred new beautiful Lapua cases to sacrifice. I think reforming old military 0-6 cases is way too much work.
Oh, and I only have the Old Feller cruise missle and three Swede mausers, iron sights, to play with. If I can get any really good groups I will post the load here. If I don't I won't.:coffee:
All I have gained from this thread is the desire and resolve to shoot the cruise missle accurately at more than 2000 fps. I never have been one to follow directions :veryconfu.
Life is good

I've shot the CM over 2000 fps with surplus 860 and buffer. About the accuracy....well it wasn't a ragged hole, nor 1/2 or 3/4 inch, but it was consistent Coke can at 100 yards. I didn't post it because I wasn't satisfied it wasn't the little small groups and was waiting for some of the different powders I've been wanting to get back in stock at Wideners. One did and that's H4831, but I haven't tried it with the CM yet. One load with 860 has me speeding too fast, yet still with Coke can groups, so I slowed it down. The loads were definitely suitable for deer hunting.

Don't waste your components if you're going to just full case of 5010 with no fillers. Been there done that with 5010 and 860 and doesn't work. Like mentioned they work to a degree with the filler.

[StarMetal]

Both the 6.5 threads have gone the same way,to many experts passing on knowledge that is not based on actual shooting.There has been only a few people posting up results from load development and a heap based on BS. Pat

There we go again, more members calling me a liar about the recent loads I just posted that I shot. Thanks Pat, you're a real fellow member friend.

[garandsrus]

Joe,

Why would you not think that you are not one of "only a few people posting up results from load development"? I would think that you are since you are shooting the boolits and providing load data.

John

[Nrut]

SM,
I think maybe you took PAT303's post exactly back wards..

Pat I. ,
Are you doing any work with the 6.5 and PSB fillers?
How about any other calibers using PSB fillers?

[StarMetal]

Thanks for pointing that out, I did take his post the wrong way. I'm continuing testing loads and throwing out data that has worked for me hoping that someone can put the same exact load together and have it work for them too. I put about 40 test rounds through the Swede last weekend using H4831 and the 469 remake with no good results. I'm not having success with either the H4831 with any bullet nor the remake 469 bullet.

Pat303 my apologies for misunderstanding your post. If you have any of the powders from my most recent test please do give them a try. It's obvious that it's not a velocity that is the sweet spot but how the powder burns and peaks. Also finding out it's not going slower with powder either, at least for me.

Remember one thing here guys, my Swede is scoped and if yours isn't you should be able to tell when you get a good group especially if you're shooting a shorter distance at first. I have tried loads even with a scope at 50 yards to weed out the bad ones and then moved them up to 100 yards.

[PAT303]

There we go again, more members calling me a liar about the recent loads I just posted that I shot. Thanks Pat, you're a real fellow member friend.

Joe that wasn't towards you,your one of the only blokes that has posted up loads and groups,it's the armchair shooters that haven't posted up a thing that that post was dirrected too.As I said it's up to us to show groups and results not you. Pat

[StarMetal]

Joe that wasn't towards you,your one of the only blokes that has posted up loads and groups,it's the armchair shooters that haven't posted up a thing that that post was dirrected too.As I said it's up to us to show groups and results not you. Pat

Thanks Pat, we're on the same sheet now. I'll continue posting loads that work for me.

[scrapcan]

I have to disagree that there are more detractors than supporters. I have offered what I can to others who want to try to get where few have gone.

I have also been very thankful to Star Metal and 45 2.1 for sharing with me. Both publicly and via pm or email.

StarMetal and PatI, would you try not to piss off those of us who are also trying to get somewhere on this topic. The more data we have the better off we will be. Data is data and means nothing until interpretations are done.

And on a nother note, How many sent a mould for a fellow member to use because he did not have one of those called out as working with this method. How many sent some already cast that are being worked on their end so the other one can try them out also? how may offered up military brass or gas checks. I can tell you there are more of us out there trying to help than trying to set up for failure.

I think you are all wet in thinking everyone wants this to fail. I think we all want this to work and for each of us to be able to get it to work.

By posting the results along the way, Star Metal and 45 2.1 can aid in diagnosis of where to head next or to know that one has arrived. Larry said he would do his best, now let him do his best and critique after he has some results.

[Turk]

Greetings group: Yesterday was 65 light wind so I went to the range for more testing. So far with H4831sc I have tested from 40 grains to 32 grains in 1/2 grain steps with the ballistics original buffer velocitys ran from 2212 to2460 fps,groups ran from + 12" to 3.875" for 10 shots at 100 yds. if there is a sweet spot it seems to be around 33-to 33.5 grains at about 2280 fps. not to tight but shows some hope with tweaking, this was with the cut down cruise missles at 150 grains .2685 lbt lube. As Joe has said not the best bullet for the job,But I now have some bullets from the Bull Shop They are the group buy Kurtz 136 grain sized at .2685 cast of 1/2 WW-1/2 Lead. Will do test over between 33- 34 grains with H4831sc in 1/4 grain steps. The test was done without crimping and a .002 bullet draw,will crimp next ones. I feel like with Joes and 45 2.1 help I am getting closer. I now have a nice Burris 10x LER scope scout mounted this helps a lot. On another note with H4350 powder testing with and without the buffer, 30 grains with no buffer went 1990 fps group at 100 yds was 10 into 2.740, with 30 grains powder and 8 grains of buffer they went 2252 fps group was 2.700 for 10 at 100 yds. Not much difference in accuracy but 262 fps gain in velocity. Holes were round groups were pretty round no real flyers just not to tight ,maybe the better bullets will help. Will report when i know more-----Turk

[StarMetal]

Greetings group: Yesterday was 65 light wind so I went to the range for more testing. So far with H4831sc I have tested from 40 grains to 32 grains in 1/2 grain steps with the ballistics original buffer velocitys ran from 2212 to2460 fps,groups ran from + 12" to 3.875" for 10 shots at 100 yds. if there is a sweet spot it seems to be around 33-to 33.5 grains at about 2280 fps. not to tight but shows some hope with tweaking, this was with the cut down cruise missles at 150 grains .2685 lbt lube. As Joe has said not the best bullet for the job,But I now have some bullets from the Bull Shop They are the group buy Kurtz 136 grain sized at .2685 cast of 1/2 WW-1/2 Lead. Will do test over between 33- 34 grains with H4831sc in 1/4 grain steps. The test was done without crimping and a .002 bullet draw,will crimp next ones. I feel like with Joes and 45 2.1 help I am getting closer. I now have a nice Burris 10x LER scope scout mounted this helps a lot. On another note with H4350 powder testing with and without the buffer, 30 grains with no buffer went 1990 fps group at 100 yds was 10 into 2.740, with 30 grains powder and 8 grains of buffer they went 2252 fps group was 2.700 for 10 at 100 yds. Not much difference in accuracy but 262 fps gain in velocity. Holes were round groups were pretty round no real flyers just not to tight ,maybe the better bullets will help. Will report when i know more-----Turk


Turk,

Your 4350 load of 30 grains with the buffer was very close to my velocity. Remember my load was 31 grains. Good to know that we're both in the same ball park. Takes a load off my mind that someone is coming close to duplicating at least one of my loads.

By the way I tried 34 grains of 4831 in my first Kurtz loads. I can get that powder close, but no cigar.

Keep up the good work and you know where to find me for any help.

[scrapcan]

Turk and Joe,

Thanks for that information. I have four 1lb cans of same lot of imr4350 and have been toying with the idea of using it. It looks like it is in the proper burn rate for the application. I am basing that statemetn on the results that both of you have shared.

I am still waiting to get the correct buffer in hand and as such have
not headed down this path as of yet. I will be doing so in the very near future.

Keep up the lines of good communication.

[Pat I.]

manleyjt I have some BPI original and Grex laying around that I was trying in different cartridges a few years back. If you're interested PM your address and I'll mail you some.

[StarMetal]

Turk and Joe,

Thanks for that information. I have four 1lb cans of same lot of imr4350 and have been toying with the idea of using it. It looks like it is in the proper burn rate for the application. I am basing that statemetn on the results that both of you have shared.

I am still waiting to get the correct buffer in hand and as such have
not headed down this path as of yet. I will be doing so in the very near future.

Keep up the lines of good communication.

Midways still has it available :
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=695248

[geargnasher]

Watching with great interest.

Joe, you've saved me a pile of components already.

One thing that set me back, though, was your "50/50" soft lead and WW, I know you're mix is way off from "typical" results of that. I reluctantly blended some up with aged ww ingots measuring 13.5 bhn with some sewer-pipe lead (dead soft) and got WD barely to 14 in three weeks, ac was about 9. You wouldn't believe the leading I got, stopped all testing until I could afford an Outers Foul-out kit, even a Lewis patch wouldn't touch it.

IIRC, you said your alloy WDs to about 20, am I right? Could you give us a tip on what you've been using for your tests of late?

Thanks,

Gear

[StarMetal]

Watching with great interest.

Joe, you've saved me a pile of components already.

One thing that set me back, though, was your "50/50" soft lead and WW, I know you're mix is way off from "typical" results of that. I reluctantly blended some up with aged ww ingots measuring 13.5 bhn with some sewer-pipe lead (dead soft) and got WD barely to 14 in three weeks, ac was about 9. You wouldn't believe the leading I got, stopped all testing until I could afford an Outers Foul-out kit, even a Lewis patch wouldn't touch it.

IIRC, you said your alloy WDs to about 20, am I right? Could you give us a tip on what you've been using for your tests of late?

Thanks,

Gear

Gear,

That's what I've been using for years in just about all my cast shooting. 50/50 WW/PB All those groups, except the one recently done with BaBore's Kurtz remake, were 45 2.1's cast and all he uses is 50/50 and he only air cooled them. On my 50/50 cast I water quench them and I cast them hot at a steady pace.

I'll have to say even when I mess up and sent AC bullets down the bore way way faster then I intended...I never get leading. Could very well be the differences in our bores or my lube. Recently I exceeded 2800 fps and they stayed on the target and no lead in the barrel. Go figure.