Question

[dubber123]

What do you think say, a 1940's through 60's .38 Special would have used for a powder, in the standard 158 grain round nose factory ammo? The dates are generalizations. My guess would be Bullseye. What say you?

[Dframe]

I suspect they would have used a canister grade of something very much like Bullseye

[Mk42gunner]

I would bet a cup of coffee that the factories used several trainloads of non canister Bullseye in .38 Special loads.

Robert

[Shiloh]

I would bet a cup of coffee that the factories used several trainloads of non canister Bullseye in .38 Special loads.

Robert

That would be a reasonable answer.

I would imagine that at the volumes they purchase and use, they would need a powder that drives a certain bullet at a certain velocity within specified pressures.
Then let the engineers figure out the powder wt. for that particular lot.

Just like the military and just like reloader's using surplus powders.

Bulk powders for sure.

Shiloh

[dubber123]

I would bet a cup of coffee that the factories used several trainloads of non canister Bullseye in .38 Special loads.

Robert

About what I figure. This is what my train of thought is: I am pretty certain it's Bullseye, or VERY close. The reason I think so is; Bullseye has been around forever, it works at the "standard" speed, and the lower charge weight means less invested per round by the factory, = higher profit.

NOW, what the real interest to me is, I have always read that the standard issue 158 RN usually clocks around 800-850 fps. in regular production revolvers. Now using the current load data for .38 spl., my loads clock well slower than 850 fps. Using an older Speer manual, the charge weights are a good deal higher, but the speeds come out right on the money, and coincidentally shoot right to the sights on my old fixed sight S&W's, which are regulated to the standard 158 RN load. Bullseye hasn't changed, so I can only assume the loads have gotten sissified greatly.

[NickSS]

I have noticed the same thing with several loads in different calibers. Current reloading manuals use lighter charges and when I try a max charge per my current Lyman manual all indications are that they are very mild loads. My guess is that we have more lawyer involvement then engineer involvement with the published data these days. One example is the 9mm. In the current Lyman manual it list 3.8 gr of Reddot with a 120 gr cast bullet as Max. That load is so mild that my Ruger P89 feels like it is just barely functioning. When I get up to around 4.8 gr the gun feels like I am shooting a decent load in it.

[MT Gianni]

I have noticed the same thing with several loads in different calibers. Current reloading manuals use lighter charges and when I try a max charge per my current Lyman manual all indications are that they are very mild loads. My guess is that we have more lawyer involvement then engineer involvement with the published data these days. One example is the 9mm. In the current Lyman manual it list 3.8 gr of Reddot with a 120 gr cast bullet as Max. That load is so mild that my Ruger P89 feels like it is just barely functioning. When I get up to around 4.8 gr the gun feels like I am shooting a decent load in it.

Nick, you might run it through a chrono and compare with factory stated ballistics, unless they used a 12" pressure bbl. The P-89 is as stout as they come and mine was equipped with strong springs too. AIRC there is a big difference between US and European loading in the 9mm. Theirs has always been quite faster. IF OAL and same components get you 200 fps slower than listed I would consider bumping a max load to near their velocities.

[Papa smurf]

Ha dubber123------Lawyers are reason.

[dubber123]

Ha dubber123------Lawyers are reason.

Oh, I figured. Using vintage guns, and the origional boolit weight, the older manuals in this caliber at least will make my fixed sight guns print right on. The new manuals seems slow, and don't shoot to the sights. I have to assume the origional ammo was loaded to a bit warmer spec than the manuals now call "standard pressure". :roll:

[j20owner]

Also in agreement on current .38spl load data. Max charge of Universal with a 158gr LSWC was below 600fps in a 4" GP100. What?

[fecmech]

I have noticed the same thing with several loads in different calibers. Current reloading manuals use lighter charges and when I try a max charge per my current Lyman manual all indications are that they are very mild loads. My guess is that we have more lawyer involvement then engineer involvement with the published data these days. One example is the 9mm. In the current Lyman manual it list 3.8 gr of Reddot with a 120 gr cast bullet as Max. That load is so mild that my Ruger P89 feels like it is just barely functioning. When I get up to around 4.8 gr the gun feels like I am shooting a decent load in it.

Nick-- The Alliant powder guide lists 4.5 grs of Red Dot with a 125 gr lead bullet for 1145 fps and 32 K PSI. So I'd say you are just a little high but in the ballpark

Dubber123--The Lyman Cast Bullet Manual lists 4.2 Bullseye for 880 fps and 16,200 CUP with a 158 RN. It is the most accurate load out of my K-38 bar none and I have shot way north of 10K of that load through the gun. It runs 900 fps out of the 6"bbl.

[dubber123]

Nick-- The Alliant powder guide lists 4.5 grs of Red Dot with a 125 gr lead bullet for 1145 fps and 32 K PSI. So I'd say you are just a little high but in the ballpark

Dubber123--The Lyman Cast Bullet Manual lists 4.2 Bullseye for 880 fps and 16,200 CUP with a 158 RN. It is the most accurate load out of my K-38 bar none and I have shot way north of 10K of that load through the gun. It runs 900 fps out of the 6"bbl.

There ya go, max listed in my Alliant manual is now 3.6 of Bullseye. :roll:

[fecmech]

After my previous post I remembered I had an old factory 38 rn load laying in a drawer for the past 30 yrs or so and thought why not pull the bullet and see. What a surprise, it was a Federal HV load (maybe one of the old 38-44 loads) that had 13.1 grs of a ball powder under a hollow base RN! I'll have to put that back together and run it over the chrono this spring.

[dubber123]

13.1 grains? it's definately NOT Bullseye in that one!