Finally "Bit the Bullet" .... .404 Mould Coming

[BruceB]

Been threatening to do this for months, but finally the stars and planets got aligned and I called NEI for a PROPER mould for the .404 Jeffery. Double cavity aluminum, and TWO WEEKS delivery time!

If y'all go to www.neihandtools.com and look on Page 9 of their catalog, the boolit is the third one down in the center column...".421-390-GC". This appears to be exactly what the cartridge requires, with a fairly-short nose and long body. The case has a VERY long neck, and chambers are short-throated. For example, to use the Lee 44-310 in my .404 (sized .424"), the bullet MUST be seated so that the nose taper begins right at the case mouth in order to allow chambering of the cartridge. What a dumb-looking round that is!

The NEI's weight is just about exactly the same as the factory loads, and in a couple of weeks I'll be able to start boring everybody with tales about this design. If cast-boolit hunting is in the plans, I find these "large-medium bores" to be a highly attractive alternative because we can have plenty of weight, excellent frontal area, and velocities which the bullets can tolerate rather easily, while being EXTREMELY effective "on arrival". The famed Africa-proven factory Kynoch .404 loads used 400-grains at 2125 (I chronographed 'em in my rifle) and that is very easily obtainable with a cast boolit of the same weight. I know from personal field experience that this is a 200-yard-plus load, and no mistake!
Having BIG designs to work with makes manufacture of my 2-alloy cast softpoints easier, too. I have loaded 400-grain jacketed softpoints to almost 2500 fps, and that gets pretty miserable in an 8.5-pound rifle. Even with the less-ambitious loads, it can get a bit lively on the back end, but not all that bad.

Although I've been shooting .423" X-bullets and .424" cast boolits in this rifle, the groove diameter is actually around .4185". Even so, accuracy has been very good indeed. I have sizer dies in .419" and .424", and don't expect any problems in that area.

I can hardly wait! It's only fairly recently that I've realized that this rifle has never been used to its full utility, even though I've owned it for 35 years. I've looked over its sights at some BIG animals over those years, but with a decent cast-boolit design, I'm anticipating a whole lot of fun with it on the range. Maybe some squirrel shooting, too???? I'll have 'er all primed-up and ready for the next Nevada Shoot, too.

[Frank46]

BruceB, Is it true that woolly mastodons are making a comeback in nevada?. Or was that just a rumor. All kidding aside I had a chance to fire a double rifle in 470 nitro express (or so I seem to remember CRS) some years back. Two shots and that was all the fun I wanted. The custom westly richards mauser in .318 was way more fun. Frank

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I used to shoot 400gn .410 cast boolits which were PP with 2 wraps of 'bank' 50gms. these would finish .425 and could be loaded to a genuine 2000fps.

[45 2.1]

Having BIG designs to work with makes manufacture of my 2-alloy cast softpoints easier, too. I have loaded 400-grain jacketed softpoints to almost 2500 fps, and that gets pretty miserable in an 8.5-pound rifle. Even with the less-ambitious loads, it can get a bit lively on the back end, but not all that bad.

Bruce-
There are easier ways to get expansion. Try 50% WW and 50% pure water dropped. It will give you a hard boolit that expands easily. You can vary the mix with more WW % to get to your top velocity and still get excellent expansion. Its a lot less work.

[9.3X62AL]

BruceB, Is it true that woolly mastodons are making a comeback in nevada?. Or was that just a rumor.

Frank, all that "global warming" BS is junk science--the Ice Age is nigh! The 40 caliber+ rifles lend themselves well to anti-mastodon and counter-cave bear operations. Seeing that it was colder in California in March than it was in Alberta in November, I know very well that ice sheets are only a short time away. I'd better get done whatever high-country trout fishing I want to do--SOON.

[montana_charlie]

loaded to a genuine 200fps.
200 feet per second! You probably didn't need sights on that gun...
Just fire a round, watch it fly, and correct on the second shot.

Of course, ever since the premier of "Crocodile Dundee", we expect all Aussies to do everything a bit differently.
CM

[NVcurmudgeon]

Now there's a rifle to warm the cockles of "Pondoro's" heart! The Ruger No. 1 in .416 Rigby is a very fine rifle, but it just doesn't have the complete bunduki m'kubwa credentials of a Cogswell & Harrison .404. Now I'm really looking forward to NCBS 2007.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Pondoro said in his book that whenever he was seriously hunting lions, it seemed that this was the time that he invariably happened to be using a single shot rifle. He said he never planned it that way, but that's the way it turned out.

I think he would have thoroughly approved of the Ruger No 1, especially given the price. I have almost fallen into the charms of a 416 No1 a few times. I have managed to resist so far. I wouldn't mind a 45/70 though, you can always use a third 45/70 (yeah, right!).

Dang it, I'd forgotten all about those african calibres I wanted over the years, 500Gibbs, 318W/R, 350Rigby, 375H&H, 416, etc).

Mick.

[Frank46]

BruceB, well you better start fishing soon or you'll have to chop them outta the ice.
Come to think on it that might not be such a bad idea. Well done. Frank

[BruceB]

As I wrote to open this thread, last Friday I called NEI to order the .404 mould.

Today, EIGHT DAYS LATER, I'm sitting here contemplating the very first bullets cast with the special-order mould! How's that for service?????????

Not only that, but the bullet is precisely as described, and it seems to be a very good fit in the rifle.

In straight WW alloy, cast fast and hot as is my habit, the bullets weigh 398 grains, average of ten boolits, and extreme weight spread over the ten is 1.4 grains (two cavities). (The vast majority of factory .404s were 400 grains).

The forward band is .424", and the other three are .421". An unsized bullet tapped into the muzzle shows full engraving right to the bottom of the grooves, and also shows minor engraving on the nose itself, ahead of the front band..

Hornady .44 gaschecks are a kinda "loose snap fit", meaning they'll stay on long enough to get to the sizer die. They show a slight "doming" effect from the extra compression, but I doubt it'll give me any problems. Hornady .416 checks are NOT a good fit, at all. Couldn't get one on the shank, no way, no how. Not worried, either...they're undersize.

With the bullet seated to the crimping groove, the round fits the magazine with a good quarter-inch to spare, and the gascheck is positioned right at the base of the neck! With the bullet seated at this length, the round chambers freely and extracts likewise. I'll check later to see how far it has to jump from this seating, but right now there's considerable attraction to being able to seat and CRIMP for bullet security against the deepseating which can occur in the magazine under heavy recoil.

Seating pressure is quite low, as I sized the boolits at .419" (Stilwell custom sizer die). If this becomes a difficulty, I'll just neck-size 'em in the .416 Rigby die......no problem.

Can you tell I'm excited?? Tomorrow, after about 35 years of starvation, my .404 will fire a PROPER cast boolit for the first time!

On top of all the above, the danged thing actually LOOKS like a .404 round should look!

[NVcurmudgeon]

Keep the .404 reports coming, Bruce. This is going to plow somewhat more new ground than say, 311291 in the .30/30! Another candidate for the pure lead softpoint technique?

[9.3X62AL]

Good news all around, Bruce. I'm glad to see that NEI is doing such good things in such a timely fashion, too.

[BruceB]

Contrary to appearance and scurrilous rumors, Deputy Al and Curmudgeon are not on my payroll.

The new boolit WORKS.

Taking a leaf from rather extensive experience with my .416 Rigby, I opted for a stair-step series of XMP 5744 charges. Five rounds were loaded at each charge level. Bullets were water-dropped WW, sized .419", Felix-lubed and gaschecked with Hornady .44s. All rounds contained a dacron tuft.

40.0 5744: 1643 fps for the ONE round which registered on the chronograph.

42.0 5744: 1706 average, 32 extreme spread, 12 std deviation.

44.0 5744: 1773 av, 13 es, 5 sd

46.0 5744: 1837 av, 35 es, 13 sd

48.0 5744...I screwed-up and lost the readings

50.0 5744: 1961 av, 30 es, 11 sd

52.0 5744: 2014 av, 22 es, 9 sd.

This is a very "serious" rifle, and needs considerable care in managing it on the bench because it can HURT. Not just shoulders, but fingers and hands, elbows and other assorted body parts can take punishment, and such is not condusive to good shooting. For instance, I had to keep reminding myself to NOT bear down on the stock with my cheek, because the rifle really belts the old chops if I do. Also, the rifle reminded me that one should NOT have his tongue between his teeth when the striker falls (it only took ONE reminder, believe me). The new Pachmayr Decelerator pad took almost all of the shoulder trauma away...very nice. The rifle-rest I'm using in the van allows virtually a normal hold on the rifle, with a good grasp on the fore-end, etc. This helps a great deal in controlling the recoil.

I still left the range with a headache, after firing only 35 rounds in the .404.

With the Weaver K 1.5 and its post reticle, I used the same semi-circle aiming mark as I do with iron sights. It works great.

Note that the highest-speed load above is only about 100 fps short of the great 400-grain factory loads which made the .404's sterling African reputation on the heaviest and most-dangerous of game animals. The attraction of constructing a "standing benchrest" should be obvious (it sure is to me!) if much of this sort of loading is anticipated. As the velocities rose with each increase in the load, the point of impact moved as well, even at fifty yards, so I was twiddling the scope adjustments a fair bit trying to keep impacts in the black. The character of the recoil also changed noticeably with each increased load. At 1800 fps, it was like a heavy 'thud', but at over 2000, no doubt about it, it was a fast WHACK which caused my butt to actually get lighter on the stool at each shot. Strange sensation, that! "Just a big push," say some of "them" out there. Ha! Try it in an 8.5 pound rifle, and it is NOT a "push".

I think for mostly fun shooting, there's ample fun to be had around the 1800 fps level. Maybe I'll take a poll at the next Nevada Shoot, after folks compare some different-level loads.

The groups weren't much to write home about, and part of that is due to my regaining familiarity with the rifle, sights, and trigger....and telling myself that "It's not THAT bad..." The two heaviest loads showed some tipping of the bullets, so maybe I have some leading or other factor coming into play.

The 52.0 load went 2.6"/5/50 and 50.0 delivered 2.2"/5/50.

46.0 put four in one BIG hole in the ten-ring (0.6"), but with an un-called flyer a couple inches to the right.

40.0 gave me 1.4" for all five.

Feeding was ridiculously smooth, and I had to open the bolt on a couple of occasions to convince myself that I had indeed loaded the chamber.

Brazos kindly sent me some once-fired .300 RUM cases, and I;m pleased to report that they fire-formed very nicely without casualties, and now are soldiering-on as .404s.

On short notice, I like the new boolit a whole bunch. It seems to be the perfect duplicate of the factory jacketed bullets in weight and shape, and I look forward to doing a lot of shooting with it.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Bruce, it is noticeable that each upward step in powder charge yielded a 60-70 fps gain in mv. You never reached a point of diminishing returns, despite reaching almost factory energy levels. Is this another example of the old British principle of a huge case capacity combined with low pressure producing lots of power safely? Looks like Jeffrey, et al knew what they were about.

Not only am I not on BruceB's payroll, but I wish I could afford to put him on my payroll. He comes up with fascinating test projects!

[BruceB]

NVC;

I noticed that symmetry of velocity increase with the series of loads, too. It happens rather regularly with these big cases and is very useful when nearing the top of the safe pressures with most powders. Once the symmetry starts to vanish, it's time to watch carefully. I believe I'll try 4198 in the next bunch and see how that goes.

You likely know that the original .404 loads used Cordite, in long strands. These were usually loaded into the case before the final case-forming step created the shoulder and neck. I've fired cordite loads from this rifle, as the Berdan-primed steel-jacketed factory solids I bought with the rifle (1970) were thus loaded. The Boxer-primed stuff I obtained ($5.85 for 5 rounds, 1970 dollars!!!), around the same time were nitro-cellulose loaded. Duplicating the weight of the Cordite charge with 3031 has been more-or-less an easy way to load roughly-equivalent loads with NC powder.

Cordite had a deserved reputation for being heat-sensitive, and since most of the large-caliber ammunition of the day (around 1910 for the origins of the .404 and .416 Rigby) was intended for African hunting, heat sensitivity was a real concern. Hence, they built the big case-low pressure rounds. It's just serendipity that, if we want REAL horsepower, today's better powders find a happy home in the large British cases of yesteryear.

What still impresses me is just how excellent those early smokeless rounds are, at the ORIGINAL performance levels. This applies to smaller rounds too, such as the 7x57, 6.5 (M-S and Swede), .30-06, etc. I don't know HOW the early designers got it so right, but there's no doubt that they did. "Improving" the ballistics of such items as the .404 or .416 doesn't do much except flatten the trajectory a bit, and tenderize the the shooter's shoulder and psyche. I've fired my .404 with 400 @ 2450...NOT NICE. Equally, my .416 Rigby, fully two pounds heavier than the .404, is bloody miserable to shoot with 400 @ almost 2700. With 300s at 3000, the less said the better! Both cartridges are utterly effective at the original speeds.

Reduced loads can be a problem due to the huge amount of volume left un-used, and here's where dacron has proven very useful. My heaviest load of 5744 with the new boolit was 52 grains, in a case that I've fired with 95 grains of IMR 4831. Also, my hunting load in the .416 last year used 55 grains of 5744, where I've loaded 120 grains of 4831 for a full-effort combo. THAT is a lot of airspace!

I expect to shoot the .404 a lot more than I have in the recent past. I now have both a proper cast bullet AND the availability of that Remington RUM brass. Sure was nice of Big Green to base their maggie series on the .404! .338 RUM brass is a bit shorter than .404 length, but the .300 and .375 RUMs are just right. $12 for 20 whips hell out of $40 for 20! BTW, my new NEI 2-cav .404 mould cost all of $81 delivered here. I seem to have fired all of the initial short casting run, and the furnace is heating as I write....

[felix]

The initial formulations of Cordite contained 45-50 percent nitroglycerin. That would burn any barrel metal, even those made with today's metals. Even low pressure applications won't be much help in the longevity. HiVel2 was taken off the market for the same reasons. I think it had circa 35 percent. ... felix

[BruceB]

Yep, Cordite was renowned for its erosive tendencies. In later years (WW II) both Cordite and nitro-cellulose were used in service-issue .303 ammunition.

The barrel-wear patterns in machine guns was so different that many guns (Vickers, mostly) were limited to nitro-cellulose ONLY, if the possibility of using the guns for overhead fire existed. This was not just a restriction for the occasion, it was a restriction for the life of the barrel. Use of the NC loads in barrels previously used for Cordite was considered a hazard to those under the path of fire, with rather random distribution of trajectories. NC-loaded .303 ammunition is usually identified as "Mark VIII", as opposed to the Cordite loaded Mk VII, and considerable care was exerted to get Mk VIII ammo to the Vickers units.

There are now about 300 copies of my new boolit on my bench, and guess what?? After the big Gator check buy, I now discover that I'm down to only about 100 Hornady .44 gaschecks!!! I failed to order any .44 Gators, dang it.

[lar45]

I built a simple standing rest for shooting my 470 NE.
I used some deck screws and 2x4s. I put two pieces together at 90 deg and one to brace them at 45. I take 2 C clamps with me to the range and clamp it to an upright next to the benchs. I can then put a sand bag on it to rest my left forearm on while shooting.
I'm shooting a 500 gn cast GC from mountain molds to 2150, cast from water dropped WW, loaded with RL15 and 5 gns of Dacron to top it off.

The first time I shot it, it weighed in around 8 lbs. It definatly got your attention. I've since added weight to the stock and have it just under 10 lbs.

have fun.
Glenn.