Canadian Ranger "Marksmanship Mechanics & Ballistic Tables

[robertbank]

Here is a link to the Canadian Ranger Marksmanship Mechanics & Ballistic Tables for the .303 Brit using the #4 Rifle. I have no idea how to convert this to a readable file so it can be copied here but if someone can please do so.


http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/article/Ballistic_tables_and_publications.pdf

Take Care

Bob

[longbow]

Bob:

Thanks for that. Might just come in handy. I just finished loading up a bunch of .303 but with 200 gr. cast. Was hoping to shoot today but it is too late now. Next weekend!

It is too large in its PDF format but maybe converted to jpeg or something would work. I will see what I can do.

Thanks again for the link.

Longbow

[wills]

Bob:

Thanks for that. Might just come in handy. I just finished loading up a bunch of .303 but with 200 gr. cast. Was hoping to shoot today but it is too late now. Next weekend!

It is too large in its PDF format but maybe converted to jpeg or something would work. I will see what I can do.

Thanks again for the link.

Longbow

If you figure out how to convert a pdf to a jpeg, please let us know how its done.

[longbow]

wills:

By using the "Snapshot Tool" in Acrobat Reader, you can copy a page at a time and paste it into a graphics program like Photoshop (I use GIMP which is open source). The file can then be saved as any standard graphics file like jpeg, tiff, bitmap, etc. The resolution isn't great but it is quite readable. File size is 87kb per page so postable on Cast Boolits.

Also, using the same tool you can copy and paste into Word but resolution is no better.

Printing and scanning is likely the best so I will do that tomorrow.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Thanks Longbow I very much appreciate you doing that.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

I noticed the bullet drop table is for 174 grain FMJ, while the Wind drift table is for 174 gr FMJBT.
The FMJBT would have to be MkVIIIz, and the FMJ may be MkVIIz which is what I've been told the Canadian Rangers are being issued.
Wind Drift for the Mk8 bullet would likely be a great deal less than for the MVII bullet.

I've heard that the Mk8 bullet, intended for precision long range indirect fire from medium machineguns, was prefered by British Snipers when using the .303, but that its use in rifles was restricted to emergencies when MkVII was not available due to its much higher chamber pressure.

I have a PDF of the "Shoot to Live" book saved to documents, and a similarly titled book on US training in combat pistol craft.

[robertbank]

The Canaduian Rangers are now issued the followng:

IVI197K 3 -03 BallMK8Z Cartridges
IVI04F16-02 Soft Point Cartridges

The codes are right from two boxes.

The tables are meant to get the shooter on paper as indicated.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

The Canaduian Rangers are now issued the followng:

IVI197K 3 -03 BallMK8Z Cartridges
IVI04F16-02 Soft Point Cartridges

The codes are right from two boxes.

The tables are meant to get the shooter on paper as indicated.

Take Care

Bob

Interesting.
I'd heard only Dominion manufacture Ammunition was being issued and that with the flat based bullet. But at that time they still had Old Stock ammunition in large quantity.
Recently I've heard that supplies of UK and Canadian No.4 rifles had become in short supply so Pakistan Ordnance Factory No.4 rifles were being issued.
With known problems of use of the Boat Tail Mk8 bullet in bores eroded by even a few hundred rounds of Cordite, and its inability to bump up sufficiently to fill the grooves of the too common oversized bores, I would have thought MkVIIIz ammunition to be the least suitable for general issue.

[robertbank]

There isn't much of the old Dominion stuff around anymore. All the stuff the Rangers get here is IVI. The rifles are pretty much worn out with the odd good one still around. Rumour has it they will go to the .308 using the Remington bolt gun. Maybe a while as most of defense spending is now goiing to fund our participation in Afghanistan. As for rifles I have seen some Brit made guns but mostly Longbranch still.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

There isn't much of the old Dominion stuff around anymore. All the stuff the Rangers get here is IVI. The rifles are pretty much worn out with the odd good one still around. Rumour has it they will go to the .308 using the Remington bolt gun. Maybe a while as most of defense spending is now goiing to fund our participation in Afghanistan. As for rifles I have seen some Brit made guns but mostly Longbranch still.

Take Care

Bob

Well I would make a guess that while the .303 rifles remained in only limited use once the 7.62 was adopted, the numbers of Vickersguns, and Brenguns still in reserve stores would require that MVIIIz remain in production for awhile longer than the MkVII or MkVIIz.
India still lists the MkVIIz in their Military products section, though I didn't See MkVIIIz when I looked last.
India doesn't seem to have much truck with NATO military establishments, though they use the 7.62 and manufacture their own equivalents of NATO ammunition types.

Sweden uses a Winchester Model 70 in .30/06 for its arctic patrols and may have a few M1917 rifles still in inventory, both being commonly called Springfields after the cartridge type.

It would be neat if Canada chose a new made repro of the Model 70 range rifles with provision for stripper clip loading, and chambered in 7.62.
A military style stock with handguards made from a temperature insensitive synthetic, if there is such a thing) would make for a handsome and practical woodsmans rifle. Make it in Stainless and the rifles should stand up to many decades of use in the arctic.

If the Australian redesigned No.4 proves to be a durable rifle and can hold up to the hottest heavy bullet .308 bear and moose loads that would be a good replacement as well, especially if given a tough synthetic stock and stainless barrel.
I might even prove to be recruit proof, and certainly easier to maintain than the Winchester or Remington designs.

There was a reported accident involving a European clone of MkVIIIz proving to be far too hot for the No.4 rifles, blowing out the bolthead of at least one, and with a vague remark about sprung No.1 action bodies.
From the sparse info in that warning it appears the bullet used was intended for a 7.62X54R long range MG load.

Most seem to believe that LMG loads are always safe for Infantry rifles in the same caliber, but its often a one way street, the Infantry ball being useful in the LMG but specialized LMG cartridges sometimes generate much higher pressures than are strictly safe for the Infantry rifles. The heavier Long range and AP loads may not blow up a rifle in good condition on the first shot, but can cause lug setback and increasing headspace, or open up internal fissures in an old barrel.

The No.4 has a bit more margin for safety than the No.1, but the MkVIIIz generates pressures in excess of the 18.5 Long Ton proof mark, and can't be good for the action in the long run.

Higher pressures due to extreme hot climate is unlikely in Canada, so thats in their favor.
Some lots of MkVIIIz in use by Vickers Guns in the heat of the Middle East has been reported to give flattened primers and erased headstamps, along with an increase in velocity.

One thing to be sure of is not to let the ammunition get wet before chambering a round. Rain water gathered at the case mouth forms an incompressable sheath preventing the neck from releasing the upset bullet and sealing the throat at the same time, this is known to have caused damage to Enfield No.1 MkIII rifles on shooting ranges, even with standard MkVII pressures, sometimes cracking the lefthand side of the No.1 action body. I suspect these fractured at the rivet holes for the charger guide.

[robertbank]

From talking to the local Sargeant IF and I emphasize If the Rangers got to a Remington in .308 I suspect it willb be an off the shelf sporter. The guys in the Artic use their #4's for hunting so it would make sense. That is one reason why they are issued soft points now for their #4's. Around here it is for bear protection.

Duirng WW11 a lot of the BC Rangers along the coast were issued Win 94's in 30-30. You see the odd one come up now and then for sale on our gun forums. The Rangers at the end of the war could buy them for $5.00. Mind you in the mid 50's you could buy Longbranch and Jungle Carbines for $9.95 either surplus or newly never issued at the local stores in Edmonton.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

From talking to the local Sargeant IF and I emphasize If the Rangers got to a Remington in .308 I suspect it willb be an off the shelf sporter. The guys in the Artic use their #4's for hunting so it would make sense. That is one reason why they are issued soft points now for their #4's. Around here it is for bear protection.

Duirng WW11 a lot of the BC Rangers along the coast were issued Win 94's in 30-30. You see the odd one come up now and then for sale on our gun forums. The Rangers at the end of the war could buy them for $5.00. Mind you in the mid 50's you could buy Longbranch and Jungle Carbines for $9.95 either surplus or newly never issued at the local stores in Edmonton.

Take Care

Bob

Like the DCM selling M1 Carbines for $20 USD in the 1960's.
I can remember decent if worn SMLEs selling for $12.95 at local discount stores as late as the early 70's, and NIB No.5 carbines going for $35.

I've heard that some US bases in Alaska kept .300 Winchester Magnum Model 70's or Model 700 to deal with roaming Brown Bear that posed a threat.
A company I once worked for had a crated shipment of officers club furniture which had been put together for an Airforce base in Turkey. The furniture was upholstered in antelope skins from hundreds of the animals culled because they kept running across the runways endangering aircraft.
The Base was closed down before the furniture could be shipped, I never found out where it ended up.

The MkVII bullet is quite a deadly mankiller, but I would say that it breaks up too easy to give the necessary penetration for handling a large bear.
I've seen a film clip of an Eskimo, probably a Ranger) downing a charging Polar Bear with a No.4, firing rapidly from the hip at spitting distance, probably no more than 25 yards. An impressive display of fire power, the shots so close together it almost sounded like a greasegun. I guess having a polar Bear charging you would speed up reaction time.

[BruceB]

IVI was making .303 ball ammo as late as the early '90s, and I was given several cases of it which I fired in my personal Bren LMG. This stuff was loaded with nitro-cellulose (IMR-type) powder.

Canadian forces used the same ammunition in both the Bren and the service rifle (#4 Mk 1 and following Marks). The 8z ammo was supposed to be issued to Vickers units, but I never served with that gun so am uncertain about the usage in Canada. Our range days typically embraced both the Bren and the rifle, and both weapons were fired with ammunition from the same cases. Using a different loading in the two main weapons of the infantry section (squad) would add unnecessary complication. It was SOP that when the LMG was in action, the empty magazines were cycled through the section and reloaded by the soldiers from their own rifle ammunition supplies.

During my years in the Northwest Territories, I knew a goodly number of Rangers. They originally began as an almost-"normal" militia unit, and on at least one occasion they soundly 'defeated' a paratroop attack on the Yellowknife airport by the Princess Patricia's Regiment from Edmonton. Naturally, a fine beer bust followed the 'battle' and many war stories were exchanged.

Later on the Rangers became a largely native organization tasked with simply keeping their eyes open during regular hunting and fishing activities in the Arctic. They were issued a #4 Rifle EACH YEAR, and the rifles were written-off when issued because of the abuse they took...salt water in the bottom of a canoe or kayak etc will eat up rifles in short order. It was a cheap and expedient method for Canada to "maintain sovereignty" in the Arctic by showing the flag as an organized military unit...however dis-organized they are in reality (and they are!).

[robertbank]

Things have changed somewhat over the years. The Rangers get quite a bit more support than they did back in the 60's and early 70's. It varies of course but now they seem to be a bit more of a a priority. Differs from one community to another as you would expect. Whnile they still get the 8Z Ball issued the soft points are the choice of most units for the reasons you mentioned.

Last year for instance they ran a patrol from Kitimat, BC on the Coast to Churchill, Manitoba by Ski Doo. One of our guys took part in it. HMCS Calgary brought them up from Victoria and landed them in Kitimat. I think it was more of a PR thing to raise the awareness of the Rangers.

IVI is still making ammo for the Forces. Good stuff really. I wish they would make and sell it into the civilian market but they don't.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

So long as the rifle in use hasn't had much if any Cordite propllent ammo put through it accuracy with the MkVIIIz ammunition should be good, with better long range performance than a flat base bullet.
Since temperatures are on the low side up North excessive pressures would be less of a problem.
The warning posted on the European Mk8 equivalent ammo did say they believed that the ammo had been worked up in a cold climate and its use in a warmer environment likely caused higher than expected pressures.

The only things I've heard about the POF manufacture rifles being brought into Canada for Ranger use indicate these were mostly in good condition.

A quick search suggests that Industries Valcartier Inc. took over the old Dominion arsenal to manufacture ammunition for military contracts. The .303 ammo would then be basically the same as Dominion other than the headstamp.

Sounds like the No.4 rifles were issued more because they were relatively cheap and expendable than anything else.

[robertbank]

Well we had a ton of them left over from WW11 and Korea. They were issued initially because that was the rifle in use at the time by the Cdn Army. The Win 94's were issued on the West Coast primarily because all the Longbranch Production was needed for those serving over in Europe. From what I understand the government has fewer and fewer serviceable rifles so it is just inevitable at some point the Rangers will transition over to a rifle of more modern design. AFAIK it will be a bolt gun in .308 with the Remington the most likely candidate but who knows. When iit comes to government procurement it will come down to cost over function I am sure.

When our Army went to the FN FAL all the old #4's were either put in stores or sold off to the public. In retrospect they might have retained more of the LE's in storage but that is another story. I suspect the replacement of the #4's is a pretty low priority right now with everything else that is going on in the world.

Take Care

Bob

[ktw]

If you figure out how to convert a pdf to a jpeg, please let us know how its done.

Adobe Acrobat (the editor, not the free reader) will convert pdf to jpeg.

File size of a jpeg is usually significantly larger than the file size of a pdf. pdf is usually a better format if you want to distribute multiple pages of something like a brochure or book (as a downloadble link). Jpeg only becomes more desirable if you need to post an image to a forum or web page.

-ktw

[wills]

Adobe Acrobat (the editor, not the free reader) will convert pdf to jpeg.

File size of a jpeg is usually significantly larger than the file size of a pdf. pdf is usually a better format if you want to distribute multiple pages of something like a brochure or book (as a downloadble link). Jpeg only becomes more desirable if you need to post an image to a forum or web page.

-ktw

I don’t have editor. I have Adobe Acrobat Elements 6.0, and it makes pdf’s just fine, but that’s all it does. Based on what longbow said
By using the "Snapshot Tool" in Acrobat Reader, you can copy a page at a time and paste it into a graphics program like Photoshop (I use GIMP which is open source). The file can then be saved as any standard graphics file like jpeg, tiff, bitmap, etc. The resolution isn't great but it is quite readable. File size is 87kb per page so postable on Cast Boolits. I can probably copy onto paint and save as a jpg. I tried using Ifranview to do a conversion, but it wont open a pdf.

[ktw]

I don’t have editor. I have Adobe Acrobat Elements 6.0, and it makes pdf’s just fine, but that’s all it does. Based on what longbow said I can probably copy onto paint and save as a jpg. I tried using Ifranview to do a conversion, but it wont open a pdf.

I have Adobe Editor.

If these are too small pm me an email address and I will send them to you as an attachement. They are 350-450K apiece.

-ktw

[30calflash]

This has some great info on the 303 in general. I'm interested in what arsenal loaded ammo should not be used in a No1 Mk3. If there is anyone with that info it would be greatly appreciated.
Imagine my surprise at seeing the cover of Col. Johnson's book shown with the charts as I've been reading a copy of it over the last week. Great book on teaching marksmanship with the No. 4 rifles.
Again, thanks for the info.

[Multigunner]

This has some great info on the 303 in general. I'm interested in what arsenal loaded ammo should not be used in a No1 Mk3. If there is anyone with that info it would be greatly appreciated.

I'd hesitate to use MkVIIIZ of any manufacture in an SMLE MkIII or earlier rifles. I hear the Australians had forbidden its use in their No.1 Lithgows, and a safety warning from Australia which I found on a European site said some greatly overloaded MkVIIIz bearing a headstamp similar to the Privi Partizan stamp had damaged rifles there.

Metalurgy of the SMLE was not well standardized at the time most were manufactured, with Nickel content varying greatly. Nickel content gives the action body its ability to recover from flexing without permanent stretching.
Some SMLE have as much as 3.5% Nickel (roughly equal to the P-14/M1917)while 2.75% was considered the acceptable lower limit. Those with less nickel may stretch if repeatedly subjected to more than 45,400 CUP of the MkVII ammunition.

From some obscure remarks made by Skenerton some late production Lithgows may have been made of a Carbon Steel alloy with no apreciable nickel or chrome content.

[30calflash]

Thanks for the info. At the moment I have a mix of 303 from various sources, including the hotter MKVIIIZ that you mention. IIRC this was loaded for use in BREN's, correct? The others are Pakistani, Win white box mfd in the mid 80's and Greek HXP. I'll have to look at all of it.
That should mean that MKVII or MKVIIZ should be okay? Also for reloading it seems to be worth toning it down a little to help with case life. It appears that most loading info in current or recent manuals reflect this. FWIW I believe the Lithgow is 1942 and the others are 1916-18 vintage BSA. I'll check them all and report back.


I'd hesitate to use MkVIIIZ of any manufacture in an SMLE MkIII or earlier rifles. I hear the Australians had forbidden its use in their No.1 Lithgows, and a safety warning from Australia which I found on a European site said some greatly overloaded MkVIIIz bearing a headstamp similar to the Privi Partizan stamp had damaged rifles there.

Metalurgy of the SMLE was not well standardized at the time most were manufactured, with Nickel content varying greatly. Nickel content gives the action body its ability to recover from flexing without permanent stretching.
Some SMLE have as much as 3.5% Nickel (roughly equal to the P-14/M1917)while 2.75% was considered the acceptable lower limit. Those with less nickel may stretch if repeatedly subjected to more than 45,400 CUP of the MkVII ammunition.

From some obscure remarks made by Skenerton some late production Lithgows may have been made of a Carbon Steel alloy with no apreciable nickel or chrome content.

[Multigunner]

Thanks for the info. At the moment I have a mix of 303 from various sources, including the hotter MKVIIIZ that you mention. IIRC this was loaded for use in BREN's, correct? The others are Pakistani, Win white box mfd in the mid 80's and Greek HXP. I'll have to look at all of it.
That should mean that MKVII or MKVIIZ should be okay? Also for reloading it seems to be worth toning it down a little to help with case life. It appears that most loading info in current or recent manuals reflect this. FWIW I believe the Lithgow is 1942 and the others are 1916-18 vintage BSA. I'll check them all and report back.

The MkVIIIZ was developed in the mid 30's for ultra long range indirect fire with the Vickers MGs. It was authorised for use in the Bren Gun late in WW2 when firing in low light conditions because the Cordite propellent used with MkVII ammo gave a bright muzzle flash and no flash suppressants had be developed for cordite. The muzzle flash problem with cordite was bad enough that night fighters had flip down dark lenses on the gunsight to prevent after images from blinding the pilot when he fired his guns.

In later years MkIIIz was used with the BREN at times and I've found surplus MkVII in boxes marked for use in the Bren Gun.
MkVIIz was also used in MGs, it reduced bore erosion due to lower flame temperature.
Because single base powders didn't bump up the bullets in the throat to the same extent as cordite, and cordite eroded throats quickly, the barrels would be marked as to what ammunition was to be used. A barrel that had fired quite a bit of MkVIIz or MkVIIIz could still fire MkVII accurately but it took only a few hundred rounds of MKVII to erode the throat enough that MkVIIz and MkVIIIz would no longer be accurate in that barrel.

The RAF continued to use Cordite in their ammo because it gave more certain ignition in the cold air at high altitudes, and because the tracer compound in use at the time required a high flame temperature to ignite reliably.
Use of cordite required alterations in the standard RAF wing guns, these were altered to fire from an open bolt and the nose cap of the jacket was altered to reduce jamming from hard baked carbon deposits.

If your SMLE rifles show any throat erosion you might as well foget using boat tail bullets, and the bullet that best bumps up to fill the grooves properly seems to be the Hornady .312 flat base 150 gr. I haven't tried the heavier Hornady .312 bullets yet.
If theres no noticable erosion the barrels should handle boat tail bullets okay, so long as they aren't much if any undersized.

Powders that give a good initial shock on ignition work best with oversized bores, and most enfield bores are oversized.

A friend has had great results using IMR 4198 with his No.5 Carbine, I generally use IMR 4320 in the full length SMLE and No.4 rifles.

Pakistani POF runs from so-so to abysmal, the 1960's MkVII is well known for misfires and hangfires and the MkVIIz of the same vintage is downright dangerous and hangfires have been known to detonate while opening the action even after a long wait.

The only HXP I've broken down to inspect shows every sign of being manufactured to Winchester specs with what appears to be Olin Ball powder. This corresponds with the findings of others who have investigated this ammo.
The Germans looted all the Greeks ammunition manufacturing equipment, and the US gave Greece surplus equipment to restart their arms industries after Great Britian cut off post war aid to Greece.
The HXP cases I've examined were identical to the Winchester cases, including the relief groove cut above the rim. They also have the occasional case with very wide relief cut, just as I've found in 80's manufacture Winchester sporting ammo.
The cases compared side by side appear to have been made on the same machinery, the brass is the same color, texture and quality. The bullets are solid lead core rather than the two piece core of the Mark VII, and are about 174 gr.

The rifles you mention sound like they should be above average specimens if in good condition. BSA was a class act all the way, and the only problems I've run across with Lithgow products were late WW2 manufacture from subcontractor parts.

If the bores are in very good condition or better I'd suggest to look into the IMR4007SSC powder. Hodgdons online reloaders guide gives loads using this fairly new powder that duplicate the MkVII balistically yet generate less than 40,000 CUP.
I haven't been able to find this powder locally so I can't say for sure, but it certainly sounds promising and would allow good performance with less stress on the actions.

[truckjohn]

I can second the motion about watching out for firing Machine Gun ammo in a bolt gun.....

Did it with some Hungarian Heavy Ball in my Mosin - bruised the heck out of my shoulder..... It sure felt like it was operating with quite a bit more "Oomph" than "Standard" rifle ammo.... I would worry about doing that sort of thing with an Enfield with it's rear locking lugs....

Then... a dumb question.... If they have gazillions of old rifles in "Issue" use - and those rifles are incredibly reliable and otherwise still fit for use, and still an extraordinarily good choice for the particular duty they see... Why not Re-Arsenal them and install new barrels? Really - the No.4Mk1 Enfield is legendary for it's ability to run in horrible conditions.... without jamming and it reloads fast... It seems like Arctic duty is a perfect example of where to just keep using it.....

Thanks

[Multigunner]

I just got around to checking the specs of Indian Ordnance factory Mk7z ammunition. According to the specs the bullets of these would also have a solid lead core rather than the two part core of the original MkVII bullet.

I've long wondered whether the two piece core was actually used that much in the later manufacture .303 ammunition.
Considering ongoing controversy over inhumane wounding effects I suspect some state users chose to substitute the more conventional solid lead core bullets.

[shooter257]

Here is a link to the Canadian Ranger Marksmanship Mechanics & Ballistic Tables for the .303 Brit using the #4 Rifle. I have no idea how to convert this to a readable file so it can be copied here but if someone can please do so.


http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/article/Ballistic_tables_and_publications.pdf

Take Care

Bob

I just add my 2 cents , I was a Ranger Instructor from 93 to 96 in YellowKnife,and yes the Canadain Rangers was supposed to receive new rifles then,we even did test on five different rifles,the problem at the time was with the Canadian firearm act,as every ranger would have had to take the firearms course, as this would be a non military firearm, so the 303 was no problems for the Ranger to receive the 303 rifle and keep at home as it was still part of the military . The Canadian Ranger is listed as a sub comp of the reserves.and one more thing why we went to soft point ammo is becouse you can not hunt with hard point ammo, and back then we used 150 win ammo.

Jim

[zuke]

I just clicked on the link http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/arti...blications.pdf
and it seem's to be a dead end now.

[robertbank]

I'll contact the local Ranger group and see if I can get it up again.

Take Care

Bob

[762nato]

I was told the rangers would be getting FN's but that would suprise me as they where first restricted here and now are prohibs. As for the .303 ammo I preffer MK7 DA, MK 8 is hotter but accuracy seems to suffer.

[robertbank]

I was told the rangers would be getting FN's but that would suprise me as they where first restricted here and now are prohibs. As for the .303 ammo I preffer MK7 DA, MK 8 is hotter but accuracy seems to suffer.

The FN's are not going to happen. There is no way select fire guns are going to be given out to the Rangers. With budgets getting cut it may be awhile before a new bolt gun in .308 is purchased.

Take Care

Bob

[zuke]

Ya know what funny would be? If the pencil pusher's decided to buy a pile of Moisen's for our Northern boy's!
How much would a couple skid's full cost them verses re-tooling to make up No4 part's?

[robertbank]

I have heard the Remington 700 in .308 was being considered at one point. The #4 will be replaced. Just when is the question.

It is going to be a bolt gun.

Take Care

Bob

[JohnH]

The original post was made in 2010. The link of the OP takes to a domain that is for sale, not to the pdf. Is there any way to relink to the pdf?

[robertbank]

Ill see if I can find it.

Bob

[JohnH]

Thanks.

[dave524]

Finally they get a new rifle, pretty much a scout type rifle

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/here-it-is-the-new-sako-rifle-for-the-canadian-rangers

[stag15]

I don't know how much I love the orange stock on those new ones,

[Texas by God]

I wonder how the Rangers like their new rifles? Tomato/tomato but I thought the new rifle was a Tikka T3 action?
It’s probably orange so you can find it in the snow lol.

[robertbank]

Local Ranger crew happy with them. It took awhile but they have them now. Those that still had their LE #4's got to keep them. Tika allowed the barrel and action to be made by Colt Canada under license. From what I understand the rifles exhibit excellent accuracy.

Nice to see they got decent kit to work with.

Take Care

Bob

[303Guy]

My first thought when I saw the rifle in the open case was magazine capacity? That black mag doesn't exactly stand out but yes, they have the magazine capacity. Still, it would have been awesome had they gone for the M10 Lee Enfield sport. But nothing wrong with their choice.

[Reverend Al]

Actually, the new Canadian Rangers issue .308 rifle is manufactured by Tikka (Sako) and is listed in Canadian military inventory as the "C-19" ... they were designed to replace the old Lee Enfield .303 British rifles since military inventory was running out on both the No. 4 LE rifles and spare parts for them. It was simply time to upgrade to a new rifle chambered for the 7.62 Nato (.308) cartridge ...

https://aptnnews.ca/2019/06/18/just-like-the-canadian-rangers-the-new-c-19-rifle-is-designed-to-thrive-in-canadas-arctic/

[Dead Dog Jack]

The original post is thirteen years old and is a dead link. Should this still be a sticky?

[Polymath]

Dominion, got bought out by IVI, got bought out by General Dynamics and are back producing small amounts of Brass for the civilian market. 5.62, 300 Blackout and 7.62 but the first two mention are the ones available now.
I used to buy Dominion primers from Canada Ammo from time to time. Should have bought a pallet of them.
Used to sell surplus Dominion powder too. Still have some D700X.
Dominion Arms is putting their name on other things now although I think it is an offshoot division and not powder or brass related. Seems every couple years there is a flip and someone else owns it.
A few years back I saw Marstar's selling Dominion 303 Ammo.
Check out:
https://www.canadaammo.com/product/detail/general-dynamics-223-rem-catridge-brass-cases-package-of-50/

[robertbank]

Dominion, got bought out by IVI, got bought out by General Dynamics and are back producing small amounts of Brass for the civilian market. 5.62, 300 Blackout and 7.62 but the first two mention are the ones available now.
I used to buy Dominion primers from Canada Ammo from time to time. Should have bought a pallet of them.
Used to sell surplus Dominion powder too. Still have some D700X.
Dominion Arms is putting their name on other things now although I think it is an offshoot division and not powder or brass related. Seems every couple years there is a flip and someone else owns it.
A few years back I saw Marstar's selling Dominion 303 Ammo.
Check out:
https://www.canadaammo.com/product/detail/general-dynamics-223-rem-catridge-brass-cases-package-of-50/

IVI makes all the small arms ammunition for the Canadian Armed Forces to this day. I am not aware of IVI producing brass for the civilian market. They make no ammunition for the civilian market. IVI Industries is owned by SNC Technologies Inc. headquartered in Valcartier Quebic. The Dominion brand was originally owned by Canadian Industries Ltd. and was a child of WW11 and sold. I pick up IVI brass at our range after the RCMP or Fed. Fisheries do their annual qualifiers. I don't reload the brass as some of it have crimped primers which are a pain to catch when you are reloading.

I may have a copy of the Cdn Ranger info. If do I will post the actual document here.

Dominion primers are not made by IVI or "Dominion" . They are branded primers for the Canadian market and made in Bosnia or the Ukraine. I have seen the shipping box marked from both countries.

Can Pro primers are from the same company in Bosnia. Bosnia is what is printed on the boxes they come in. Don't get fooled by the pretty Maple Leaf on the primer package. They may well be Russian Tula primers rebranded as Bosnian primers to get around the West's sanctions. I have used both Can Pro and Dominion primers for the past several years because they were significantly less expensive then Winchester, CCI, Federal and Remington primers and more importantly were available. There is no difference in results using them they all go bang in my guns. I have 15,000 of them in my loading room as I write this. Most will be used up by September.

D700X is cannister powder I believe out of Hogdon plant in Montreal. The continues to make 700X in Montreal. They make make other powders for Hogdon as well. D700X was said to be 5% faster than 700X. If it is/was my chronograph did not report a difference between D700X and 700X. I have about 8lbs of the powder and use it in 9MM and 38spl.

Take Care

Bob
ps The old Dominion ammunition was made by the CIL subsidiary. There is not a connection between that ammo and the "Dominion" branded primers sold by several retailers over the past five years or so.

pps The General Dynamic brass being sold by Marstar is made in the US. Knowing Marstar it well could be over run brass from General Dynamics. Some of our American friends can comment if General Dynamics sells primed brass in the US to the retail market.

ppss: SNC Technologies Inc. is a subsidiary of SNC Lavelin a Canadian engineering conglomerate with offices in Canada, the US and Europe. A simple Google search got me the corporate structure of the company that makes IVI ammunition in Canada. I doubt the Canadian Government would allow any foreign company to purchase the assets of SNC Technologies Inc.

[missionary5155]

Our Present "ruling mass" would gladly sell their lives and future to the highest bidder.

[MOC031]

ppss: SNC Technologies Inc. is a subsidiary of SNC Lavelin a Canadian engineering conglomerate with offices in Canada, the US and Europe. A simple Google search got me the corporate structure of the company that makes IVI ammunition in Canada. I doubt the Canadian Government would allow any foreign company to purchase the assets of SNC Technologies Inc.

Bob, it would appear that SNC Lavelin has a side office within the Imperial Suite of Canada's Prime Minister Racist Black Face. Kind of odd how the Force sort of disappeared that investigation into influence peddling and campaign funding during the election campaign. Or at least, I haven't heard anything about it since.

And unless I misunderstand the sale, Diemaco was eagerly sold to a foreign company named Colt, located in a foreign country somewhere to the south. I did quite a few visits to the Diemaco facility during the SARP and afterwards; retired for a while now, but I believe they still do all the 3d and 4th line maintenance on Canada's military small arms as well as manufacturing. To be topical: manufacturing the new bolt action rifle for the Rangers as well.

In 2005, Diemaco was acquired by Colt’s Manufacturing LLC and our company name changed to Colt Canada. Under new ownership Colt Canada has further expanded and diversified it’s products throughout our customer fleets.

And unless my memory is foggy, Diemaco itself was either a creation of Héroux-Devtek, or snapped up by Diemaco with the intention of becoming the manufacturer proving the new family of weapons for the SARP as well as foreign governments.

[MOC031]

The original post is thirteen years old and is a dead link. Should this still be a sticky?

The references in the original post are mostly of historical interest, and within the context that somebody within the Ranger element decided to put that together, not even somebody within Ranger Higher Niner back in NDHQ. Not throwing dirt on their parade or claiming it's of little interest, just pointing out the relevant context and nuance when applied to ammunition that is not actually MkVII.

Actual ball Mk VII ammo is about as easy to find today as stud unicorn foreskins and as expensive as fairy gold dust, so the sight corrections provided aren't going to help anyone much who's running military issue adjustable rear sights while using jacketed ammo, factory or reloads if they intend to shoot at any ranges beyond about 200 yards.

Hornady and Sierra's 174 gr. bullets, when loaded to the same MV as Mk VII, does not show the same drop and drift at longer ranges when groups are shot side by side under the same conditions. There is repeatedly talk within the Lee Enfield community over the years for somebody to begin manufacturing of a replica Mk VII bullet for reloaders to use, but as best I remember the one guy who came closest to doing that was somebody in Australia that has yet to begin doing that.

My remaining stocks of the very excellent Greek ball ammo have dwindled to the point I have been considering breaking it down my remaining 550 rounds into lots of 10 for sale, for serious owners of Lee Enfields to see what the accuracy potential of their rifle is with ball ammo known to be of excellent grouping capability.

If attempting to replicate Mk VII ballistics with today's bullets as part of replicating the same sight settings and adjustments isn't enough, when you hit the range with an unaltered rifle and it's sights with some actual Mk VII ammunition isn't enough to drive you crazy, you'll quickly find that Canadian and British pams at time are in disagreement as to what changes in POI result from the same sight changes.

In my case, I finally realized that the official military pams for the rifle gave me a very close starting point, and figuring out what actually correct for my rifle with its sights was correct - whether using Mk VII or my best reloads.

I do have .pdf versions of the Shoot To Live pam published in 1945 "this handbook for officers, warrant officers and non-commissioned officers of the Canadian Army, an attempt has been made to present a sound, simple and sensible method of teaching men to shoot correctly, effectively and consistently" by the Canadian government.

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Furthermore, other military pams for the Lee Enfield from both the Canadian and British government that cover the years from the 1940s to the last pams published by the Canadian government relating to the No. 4 Mk1 for 1st, 2nd, 3d line maintenance as well as the individual soldier's pam for the rifle. And the armourers' instructions for setting up the rifle sights correctly and zeroed before the rifle ever arrived in a soldier's hands.

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And finally, documentation from the DCRA and others on how to properly stock up a Lee Enfield for best grouping ability all the way out to 900 yards in Service Rifle type competition using military ball ammunition.

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However, Shoot To Live alone weighs in at 27 Mb in size, so it's not as simple as inserting it into a sticky. Does this forum have a library as well where documents such as this can be uploaded to?

There's a wealth of military source historical pams and documents concerning the Lee Enfield rifle, as well as from national competitive organizations like the DCRA. But it's hard to find it all together in one place, as far as I know. If we don't have a library here, perhaps I should look into this cloud thingy to make things available to all who could use it.

[robertbank]

Bob, it would appear that SNC Lavelin has a side office within the Imperial Suite of Canada's Prime Minister Racist Black Face. Kind of odd how the Force sort of disappeared that investigation into influence peddling and campaign funding during the election campaign. Or at least, I haven't heard anything about it since.

And unless I misunderstand the sale, Diemaco was eagerly sold to a foreign company named Colt, located in a foreign country somewhere to the south. I did quite a few visits to the Diemaco facility during the SARP and afterwards; retired for a while now, but I believe they still do all the 3d and 4th line maintenance on Canada's military small arms as well as manufacturing. To be topical: manufacturing the new bolt action rifle for the Rangers as well.

In 2005, Diemaco was acquired by Colt’s Manufacturing LLC and our company name changed to Colt Canada. Under new ownership Colt Canada has further expanded and diversified it’s products throughout our customer fleets.

And unless my memory is foggy, Diemaco itself was either a creation of Héroux-Devtek, or snapped up by Diemaco with the intention of becoming the manufacturer proving the new family of weapons for the SARP as well as foreign governments.

Diemaco morphed into Colt Canada sometime ago. Colt Canada has a VG reputation for making quality AR15 style rifles I believe the Danes use our Colt Canada rifles. Turdo has placed all AR's under house arrest for the time being. Pierre says he will reverse the OIC. I am afraid if our American friends continue to suffer school shootings where the firearm of choice is the AR he might not be able to reverse the ban as freely as he would wish. Time will tell. To my knowledge IVI remains under the corporate tree of CNC Lavelin. If Pierre does reverse the house arrest i am going to drop what ever it takes to pick up a Colt Canada rifle. I suspectr guys ewill be selling some of their toys off in anticipation of another Liberal Gov't after the Conservatives clean Turdos mess up.

Take Care

Bob