Broken Boolits made with straight WW...

[Surfdog]

Folks,

A friend and I have been tinkering with casting our own boolits for a short while, and something strange has come up and we are looking for someone with a more experience than us to point us in the right direction.

Using straight wheel weights purchased off ebay :) my friend has cast a bunch of 225 gr round nose .45 ACP boolits using a 4 cavity lyman mould. After being cast, the boolits were immediately dropped in water.

When loading, a good number of these boolits break near the top of the case...essentially becoming a 180 grain wad cutter :)

My friend has cast another batch at a lower casting temperature, without dropping the cast boolits into a bucket of water, and still...a good number of boolits are breaking while being made iinto loaded rounds.

Anyone care to help us understand what is going on here?:confused:

Surfdog

[Greg in Malad]

My guess is zinc in the alloy.

[45nut]

or flat too hot a melt temp, the alloy is not getting a chance to solidify before the mold is opened and the boolits drop.

[Surfdog]

How would you know there is zinc in the alloy?

[HeavyMetal]

Not sure how you'd tell if you got zinc in your alloy but 45nut has a valid point which concerns hardening of the boolit in the mold before it's dropped into water.

So some questions:

Are you getting lead "smears" all over the top of the mold blocks and bottom of the sprue plate? If you are your opening the mold to soon and causing cracks in the boolit before it hits the water.

How long are you waiting for the sprue to cool? To many casters do not realize the alloy will change color three times before the sprue is actually hard enough to cut!

If your not making either of these mistakes than it is possible your alloy has issues. Someone here will know how to check for zinc in the alloy.

[dubber123]

It's opening the mould too soon, and might also be aggravated by the mould not dropping easily. At a certain point in the cooling cycle, boolits are VERY weak, and will crack or break. If you open and drop too soon, they can and will do this. If the mould drops hard, requiring some tapping on the handles, this can make it even worse. I have had this happen several times, coincidentally, one of the worst offenders was the Lyman 452374 RN .45 mould. That mould cracked MANY boolits right at the lube groove. I lapped it so it dropped easier, and waited a few more seconds for the sprue to harden, and the problem went away. Good luck.

[Surfdog]

Dubber,

You were hiding in the back of the garage when we were casting, wern't you :)

I think that you have described our situation pretty well, and although I was the only offender who smeared lead at the sprue, my buddy pretty much beat the tar out of the mould at times to get it to drop. Approximately how long do you wait before you drop the boolits?

[JIMinPHX]

Using straight wheel weights purchased off ebay :)

I have always avoided buying lead off of e-bay for fear that I might get a bad mix from someone that I don't know. You may be in that unfortunate position now.

When you melted the lead, was it kind of mushy on top when it first melted? Kind of like oatmeal? If so, I would suspect zinc contamination.

If you're lucky & the contamination percentage is real low, adding in a little tin might bring back enough elasticity to hold things together, but that's kind of a slim chance.

[canyon-ghost]

When you first pour the lead, the sprue is all shiny and mirror like, then it slowly turns back to a crystalline looking frost on the top, that's the first 30 seconds or so. Then another 30 seconds and it's hardened.
Matter of rhythm and observation, friend. If you get a lead smear on the sprue plate side, you'll also get a torn divet from the base, just hard enough to tear the sprue out. That means you slow down until it actually cuts the sprue, gives you a better bullet base and the bullet is harder.

Hope that helps some,
Ron

[armyrat1970]

Also, if you have high zinc contamination you should not be getting good fill out in the mold. If the mold is filling well and you are dropping good looking boolits I would say it is not zinc and may be as what dubber described. I wait for the sprue to cool and change in color than wait another ten seconds or so before cutting the sprue. The hotter your temps and mold the longer you will have to wait before cutting.
Welcome to the forum also.

[WHITETAIL]

Sufdog, Welcome to the forum!:holysheep
And +1 on the wait a little longer.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I just started cooling my sprue plate (after it changes to a dull silver, and I can see the little dimple from the lead getting sucked in) on a damp towel . . . seems to work for me . . .

[Bob Krack]

Bought off ebay? There is absolutely no reason to believe the alloy is straight wheelweights.

Next time, turn your pot off and continue casting 'til it's too cold. If the last good boolits still break, that means hard lead.

Bob

[randyrat]

Casting hot & fast takes a little tinkering, but makes real good bullets. I use a fan to cool the mold/harden the sprue just for a brief moment between castings, yet i like to cast hot. You have to experiment, then you need to be consistant to have consistant bullets.

If you have Zink contamination, chances are your bullets won't fillout the mold very good at all. I think the post before me had some real good advice on cutting the sprue. A fan or a damp rag may help speed things up a bit.

[ubetcha]

Take extreme care with any water or moisture around hot lead.They don't like each other,unless you want a visit from the tinsil fairy.use a small fan to cool.Also watch out when dropping bullets into water.A drop can suprisingly find it way into the mold upon closing,and it will be tinsil time on the next pour.Yes it does happen I know

[Shiloh]

How would you know there is zinc in the alloy?

The boolits won't have a good fill-out. I'm not sure the quality of the boolits would be such that they would be kept let alone seated on primed and powdered brass.

SHiloh

[targetshootr]

Why water-drop a low velocity round like 45 acp? Air-cooled ww are good to 1200 fps, probably more.

[dubber123]

A couple of the guys gave a pretty good description of how long to wait, and it's basically what I do. When I cast, it goes from shiny silver, (liquid state), to where you will see an initial "haze" run over the sprue, and I notice at least one other subtle color change. A few seconds after the second color change is pretty safe. Look up Lapping, or Leementing here on the forum, it may help cut down on having to beat on the mould. Hope this helps.

[Horace]

Also when casting hot use bullplate silicone lube on the bottom of sprue plate and top of mould. This helps prevent lead smears.

Horace

NEI also sells a good lube.

[TAWILDCATT]

I never saw that in 60+ yrs of casting.I have a lyman 4 cavity.let your pot cool off
and watch the mix stiring once in while.sounds like you have mono metal a very hard lead mix. can you scratch the bullet. if you cant scratch you will know you dont have WW.even linotype wont do that.I worked in a printing manufatury,making printing presses.and had acces to lead mixes.
I wish newbees would stay away from water drop.and posters would not recomend it.I shoot lead rifle and dont drop and my bullets are fine at 1680fts.
:coffeecom

[TAWILDCATT]

beating on mold to get it to drop for a lyman means your mix is expanding and gripping also means the mix is not WW.the harder the lead the more it expands.

[Surfdog]

Folks,

I sincerely appreciate all of your input, and based on that, I'm pretty positive that:

The WW from Ebay are probably just fine. The cast boolits fill the mold well, and there is nothing mushy or similar to your descriptions of zinc contamination. Also, using a Lee Tester, the finished bullets look to be at around 9 BHN, and can be scratched.

My buddie and I are probably casting hotter than we should, and we certainly are not waiting long enough. Although we wait until the sprue initially hardens, I think that as we get all excited dropping pretty boolits, after some time the mold gets too hot, we get too impatient, and the bullet is probably not cool enough to drop, even though the sprue is not smearing on the mold. Beating the mold to drop the boolits is certainly not helping, and may be the culprit since it doesn't matter whether the boolits are water dropped or air cooled.

I had not heard of dropping the bullets into water, and it was a practice that my friend felt useful since it cools the boolits quickly for faster inspection and handling. We do understand what a drop of water in the mix means, and we are quite careful, because neither one of us wants a molten metal bath :)

I appreciate all input, and I'll report back regarding our progress, and most likely with another question :)

Surfdog

[chris in va]

When you say the WW were bought off Ebay, were they in ingot form or still WW? Something sounds fishy about the metal itself. I have fired quite a few (inaccurate) water dropped 9mm TC and not one recovered broke or had any cracks after firing.

Perhaps something is wrong with your die?

[Surfdog]

They had already been melted down, cleaned, and cast into those nice shiny lyman bars...

The die is fine, but I am curious as to how much zinc can create an issue, and how can you detect the zinc....however I do not believe zinc is necessarily the problem based on other's responses...

Surfdog

[TAWILDCATT]

it really does not seem like it is zinc.and the BHN is fine.and I cant think of any reason for them to shatter.zinc bullets would break when shot and hit some thing not from falling as casting.:coffee:

[lylejb]

I've never had a boolit crack, but I've exactly that happen with ingots.

+1 on wait longer.

that's exactly my problem, when I get in a hurry. I pour a pan of muffin ingots, they look like their hardened, I turn the tray over to dump, and sure enough the last 1 or 2 cracks. sometimes in 2 or 3 pieces. It's a matter of waiting a little longer.

Forget the water drop. It's for hardening boolits and you don't need it with the 45acp. Harder is NOT always better.

I just drop on a folded old towel.

[docone31]

I water quench everything. I have done so for over 25yrs.
It sounds to me, as if something in the alloy is not mixed well.
I stumbled on a "mystery metal", two years ago. I melted some of it in my alloy mix and got some serious suprises.
The metal melts at an high temp, then when mixed, cools at a very low temp. I found out, it is a white metal for low temp casting. Well, needless to say, I have a bunch of ingots that has this mixed in.
Hokay.
I would cast, water drop, then size and wrap. On impact, they turned into powder. On making ingots, they would fracture in half when discharging the ingot mold. They also took longer to "freeze" when casting.
Miserable stuff. Looks great when cast, miserable stuff to work with. It does not clog the spout, nor look like oatmeal on top. I do mix zinc in my melt. I like the way it performs, and it helps to stretch out my lead. Since I only punch paper, expansion is no issue.
Stir the pot. Literally. You should have a six second wait for freeze on your castings. Too much, and cool down the mold. Less than that, heat up the mold.
A good casting, is a symphony of mold temp, alloy temp, and timing.
Every now and again, the symphony turns into an opus.

[runfiverun]

some muratic acid dropped on the ingots will tell you if you got zinc or not it'll bubble and fizz.
if regular tin/antimony lead alloy it'll just sit there.
if you have a bhn of 9 and haven't waited a week or so to take the hardness test your about right.
if it's after a week or so then you got a lot of lead in there.
i am betting you are just droping them too soon and too hot and not seeing the crack till loading.

[Marlin Hunter]

Using straight wheel weights purchased off ebay my friend has cast a bunch of 225 gr round nose .45 ACP boolits using a 4 cavity lyman mould. After being cast, the boolits were immediately dropped in water.


The WW from Ebay are probably just fine. The cast boolits fill the mold well, and there is nothing mushy or similar to your descriptions of zinc contamination. Also, using a Lee Tester, the finished bullets look to be at around 9 BHN, and can be scratched.




Something doesn't sound right. I get 18 BHN with water dropped straight wheel weight boolits.

[Marlin Hunter]

I've never had a boolit crack, but I've exactly that happen with ingots.

+1 on wait longer.

that's exactly my problem, when I get in a hurry. I pour a pan of muffin ingots, they look like their hardened, I turn the tray over to dump, and sure enough the last 1 or 2 cracks. sometimes in 2 or 3 pieces. It's a matter of waiting a little longer.



His are cracking when he crimps the boolit in the brass.

but do the pieces crack after they are cold? I have had the same problem with my ingots when I smelt and don't watch the temp. When my ingots get cold, they are not brittle.

[fredj338]

When you first pour the lead, the sprue is all shiny and mirror like, then it slowly turns back to a crystalline looking frost on the top, that's the first 30 seconds or so. Then another 30 seconds and it's hardened.
Matter of rhythm and observation, friend. If you get a lead smear on the sprue plate side, you'll also get a torn divet from the base, just hard enough to tear the sprue out. That means you slow down until it actually cuts the sprue, gives you a better bullet base and the bullet is harder.

Hope that helps some,
Ron

IME, once a large sprue hardenss (from silver to grey) The bullet is also solid. At that point when you tap open the mold, the bullets should fall free w/ little effort. Look for a burr or rough mold cav. FWIW, this all takes place in about 20sec at the right casting temp for 2cav 45cal molds.

[lylejb]

His are cracking when he crimps the boolit in the brass.

but do the pieces crack after they are cold? I have had the same problem with my ingots when I smelt and don't watch the temp. When my ingots get cold, they are not brittle

I also have some ingots, that have cracked, but not broken apart. While I haven't tried, I'll bet if I were to press on these, they would break.


i am betting you are just droping them too soon and too hot and not seeing the crack till loading

That's what I'm thinking too.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats why i dont like water dropping especially swcs. there were a bunch of cast performance (comercialy cast and water dropped) bullets at one of the linebaugh seminars in the penetration tests that were fracturing just like that and ive had it many times in penetraion tests at home. I dont care what any of the sceintists on here say water dropping makes for a brittle bullet. More so then a bullet of that has the same bhn by alloying.

[dubber123]

I also have some ingots, that have cracked, but not broken apart. While I haven't tried, I'll bet if I were to press on these, they would break.



That's what I'm thinking too.

Thats really all there is to it. Like I posted origionally, I have this EXACT same mould, and mine is a cracking SOB if I'm not patient. Lapping it so it actually drops easy made a huge difference. There are many things that make a Lyman drop poorly, and they are the same things that can afflict ANY mould, rough cavities, burrs, or Lymans favorite trick of not drilling the holes down the center of the block halves....

Think about it, if a boolit is in a very weak state, and it hangs in the mould by just the base band while you beat the snot out of the mould, do you think it might stress the boolit right at that band? Sure does, and I bet it's cracking right in the lube groove, which happens to be right about case top when loaded in .45 ACP. Drop a boolit very hot onto a table and quickly smush it with your sprue mallet. If you do it quickly, it's easy to mangle a boolit at a certain point in the cycle. Doing this will make you pay more attention to how and what you drop them on too.

[Gohon]

You guys are getting me confused. From the time I pull the mould from the spigot until I knock the spruce plate open is maybe 5-6 seconds. Another 4 or 5 seconds the mould is opened and the bullet is dropped onto a towel. Sometimes a light tap is needed, sometimes not. This is from WW's. I have never had a bullet crack on me at any time and I'm casting from 22 to 45 caliber.

[Echo]

I had not heard of dropping the bullets into water, and it was a practice that my friend felt useful since it cools the boolits quickly for faster inspection and handling. We do understand what a drop of water in the mix means, and we are quite careful, because neither one of us wants a molten metal bath :)



Once the mold is dropping good boolits, My inspection generally is limited to looking at the bases when I cut the sprue. If they are filled out, and sharp, the rest of the boolit is OK too.

And I believe you when you say you are careful re H2O, but as TAW said, water dropping isn't necessary.

[OutHuntn84]

You guys are getting me confused. From the time I pull the mould from the spigot until I knock the spruce plate open is maybe 5-6 seconds. Another 4 or 5 seconds the mould is opened and the bullet is dropped onto a towel. Sometimes a light tap is needed, sometimes not. This is from WW's. I have never had a bullet crack on me at any time and I'm casting from 22 to 45 caliber.

And looking into my magic ball, I see you dont cast your boolits at high temps:wink:. I use only wws most of the time and if I'm casting hot, and I mean way above neccesary casting temps, my ingots/boolits are brittle. It is more noticeable in the ingots.

[mdi]

Why water-drop a low velocity round like 45 acp? Air-cooled ww are good to 1200 fps, probably more.

shootr got there before me. I wouldn't waterdrop for the .45 ACP. I don't think you need a boolit any harder than WW for shooting a 45. As a matter of fact I don't water drop any of my cast and shoot heavy loads in my .44 Mag w/o probs...

[dubber123]

Air cooled, water dropped, high casting temp, low casting temp, if you cut a sprue too soon in the cooling cycle, you can and will fracture boolits. If you cut too soon and have a sticky mould you have to beat on, the odds get much higher of doing it. Just because you haven't had it happen, (or didn't notice), doesn't mean it can't happen.

[Gohon]

And looking into my magic ball, I see you dont cast your boolits at high temps. I use only wws most of the time and if I'm casting hot, and I mean way above neccesary casting temps, my ingots/boolits are brittle. It is more noticeable in the ingots.

Not sure what you would call hot but I'm usually right at 800 degrees....sometimes a little less, say 775. Don't know if it makes any difference or not but with the exception of two Lyman moulds, one a 22 caliber and one a 45 caliber all are Lee moulds. Can't even imagin how many times I see a new caster told as soon as the lead puddles and turns hard to break the spruce and dump the load. Now it seems the right way is one minute for the spruce to harden and one minute more before before opening the mould. What is the right way? I've only been casting for a couple years but it sure would be nice for some consistency. I don't water drop.......stopped doing that as soon as I learned fit is more important than hardness and softer is usually better than harder.

[OutHuntn84]

Not sure what you would call hot but I'm usually right at 800 degrees....sometimes a little less, say 775. Don't know if it makes any difference or not but with the exception of two Lyman moulds, one a 22 caliber and one a 45 caliber all are Lee moulds. Can't even imagin how many times I see a new caster told as soon as the lead puddles and turns hard to break the spruce and dump the load. Now it seems the right way is one minute for the spruce to harden and one minute more before before opening the mould. What is the right way? I've only been casting for a couple years but it sure would be nice for some consistency. I don't water drop.......stopped doing that as soon as I learned fit is more important than hardness and softer is usually better than harder.

Well 800 IMHO is a lil high but that is just me, some like it hot and some molds cast better hot. My best advise would be to cast at the lowest temperature that you obtain a good fill out on your boolit. As far as cutting your spurs, at the temps I cast at, is after the spur is solid I pick up my stick then cut and drop on a towel. Not as fast as I can, but deffinatley not a full minute. Just remember every person, mold, pot, etc is different. You have to find out what is going to work for your set up.

[fredj338]

Not sure what you would call hot but I'm usually right at 800 degrees....sometimes a little less, say 775. Don't know if it makes any difference or not but with the exception of two Lyman moulds, one a 22 caliber and one a 45 caliber all are Lee moulds. Can't even imagin how many times I see a new caster told as soon as the lead puddles and turns hard to break the spruce and dump the load. Now it seems the right way is one minute for the spruce to harden and one minute more before before opening the mould. What is the right way? I've only been casting for a couple years but it sure would be nice for some consistency. I don't water drop.......stopped doing that as soon as I learned fit is more important than hardness and softer is usually better than harder.
The bullet will cool faster out of the mold obviously, so letting it sit in the mold for 1min is likely not to help things. Cast at a slightly lower temp, I rarely run over 725deg w/ ww alloy. Once the sprue is set, the bullet is too IME. I've never had a bullet crack, never, water drop or air cooled. Ingots yes, but they are carrying way more heat in a 2#-3# ingot.

[jbunny]

a picture is worth a 1000 words. in this pic, casting to fast , look at the
cracks under the driveing band. i'm gona have to change my casting habits. i have quite a few of these. if u loaded thes up, u would complain of poor groups. evrey one thats cracked,
u can pull that apart with ur fingernail.
jb
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q273/MOUICH/crackedboolits.jpg

[dubber123]

a picture is worth a 1000 words. in this pic, casting to fast , look at the
cracks under the driveing band. i'm gona have to change my casting habits. i have quite a few of these. if u loaded thes up, u would complain of poor groups. evrey one thats cracked,
u can pull that apart with ur fingernail.
jb
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q273/MOUICH/crackedboolits.jpg

Thank you! Now they all know it's not my imagination... :roll: If you try hard enough, you can do it with just about ANY mould. A small crack would likely go unnoticed, like you mention. I wonder how many of the "I've never cracked a boolit" guys just didn't see them.... :)

[jbunny]

i'm sure the alloy has something bearing on this. i added some linotype
to ww. however, i took 2 of the boolits in the pic and pounded them flat
and they never cracked. posibly i should lower my melt temp and i have to slow
down. one thing i should mention, the cracks in the pic are quite noticeable.
the pic is closeup and 5 times the size of the boolit. just looking at the boolit
itself with my poor eyes, u ask yourself is that a crack?? i would be ashamed
to tell u howmany i culled out of this last casting batch:bigsmyl2:
jb

[smokepole]

I agree with Wildcat on the water drop. If you do continue with water drop, try puting a towel or rag over the bucket and cut a slit in it about 2 inches long, allowing the boolits to drop into the towel and then into the water. Might save some shock to the still soft boolits.

[dubber123]

I agree with Wildcat on the water drop. If you do continue with water drop, try puting a towel or rag over the bucket and cut a slit in it about 2 inches long, allowing the boolits to drop into the towel and then into the water. Might save some shock to the still soft boolits.

Thats a good idea, and how I do it if I water drop. Buuuut... You can crack them just as easy dropping them into mid air. If you drop them in that specific window of time when they are weak, just hanging up on a band will break them before they ever touch ANYTHING.

Notice how all the ones in the pic are broken/cracked in the EXACT same spot. You can't tell me all of them landed just on that perfect spot to crack them. Those boolits were cracked the moment they left the mould blocks, before they hit anything. You will see the cracks have the bases bent upwards on every one. The mere weight of the boolit hanging on that rear band is sufficient to crack boolits. That pic is all the proof you should need that it can happen if circumstances are right.

[jbunny]

d123 ; those are my thoughs exactly. the alloy is still in the plastic state
and taping on the handle hindge pin is what caused this. the boolit is hanging
on the rear band, the nose swings out and cracks the band and its very hard to see
with the naked eye.
jb

[dubber123]

d123 ; those are my thoughs exactly. the alloy is still in the plastic state
and taping on the handle hindge pin is what caused this. the boolit is hanging
on the rear band, the nose swings out and cracks the band and its very hard to see
with the naked eye.
jb

100% correct. Your mould may need some lapping to make it drop easier, or if it's good, like you suspected, just letting it harden a bit more. The OP was having troubles with the Lyman 225 Rn. Looking at this boolit, its short, and round everywhere. You wouldn't think it would be possible to crack boolits from one of these, as they must just "jump" out of the mould. Not always so. I could crack them from my 4 cav without trying too hard. Lapping it cured it in my instance.

[smlekid]

is it possible you could have some Bismuth in the alloy? Bismuth shot fractures like that when you squeeze it in a pair of pliers

[David2011]

JBunny,

>>posibly i should lower my melt temp and i have to slow down.

You might find that you can lower your temp and speed way up. I cast at about 650 degrees and run fron 15 to 18 seconds per cycle for +/- 180 grain .40 cal boolits using a 4 cavity RCBS mold. (For the detail oriented, it's a 170 gr mold but my alloy casts at 178.5 gr.)

David

[Surfdog]

Guys,

You advice and insight has borne fruit, and from what my buddie has told me, he has modified his process and the broken bullets have been eliminated.

He stopped water dropping the bullets, and waited longer for the bullets to cool. Also, he has learned to refrain from beating the tar out of the cutter plate, and mold/handles. As a result, he has had zero failures over the last 500+ boolits, and he is convinced that he understands the issues.

I want to thank all who have posted and offered advice and experience. I had no idea that such a question would elicit over 50 posts. You guys are great...thanks for the help, and you'll be hearing (more questions) from me soon!

Best Regards,

Surfdog:drinks:

[7br]

Thank you for your follow up with your solution. Another piece of information for me to file away until I need it. Great thing about threads like this is I get to learn even if it wasn't my problem.