Do I need to buy a neck sizing die?

[the_ursus]

Or can I just adjust my full length sizer to get the same results? This would be for a 7mm mauser (7x57).

Luke

[GBertolet]

You could make a thin washer to use as a spacer, about 50 to 60 thousandths thick, and place it under the die when you wish to neck size. You won't have to change your die adjustment, so your still set to full length resize when necessiary.

[the_ursus]

Thanks! I'll give that a try.

[cheese1566]

You can do some partial resizing by screwing the FL die upwards. It will still touch the sides of the case somewhat, but will distance itself from the shoulder.

I like to use a dry erase marker to set up my neck dies and FL dies when partial resizing.

Use a colored dry erase marker to either color the neck and shoulder when using a neck sizer die, or the entire casing when partial sizing using a FL die. When the casing comes back out of the die, the dry erase coloring will be rubbed off where the case has touched the die.

It will easily wipe off the case and internal of the dies with a dry rag or cotton ball.

:bigsmyl2:

[mike in co]

since dies are 7/8-14 thread, that is aprox 0.071 inch per full turn.

play with your dies and see what sizing you get at one turn out....decide how much of the lenght of the neck being sized works for you.
and then just shim from your fl setting.

or just dont fl size any more and set the die for neck sizing......


mike in co

[the_ursus]

Thanks guys, the brass will be used only for a specific rifle so I hope to just neck size from now on. I'll be in the garage later today to tinker with the die.

[Freischütz]

A Lee Collet Die may be just what the doctor ordered. Eliminates case lubrication too.

[reloader28]

I made a set of washers, but if you have a 38/357 or 44sp/44mag die you can use that spacer instead. If the neck is long enough for the tension you want, that would save you making a washer.

[Shiloh]

I have LEE collet neck sizing dies for most reloading procedures. They came with the set.
I have an RCBS neck size die in .30-40 Krag with an early 60's manufacturing date. Got that from E-Bay.

Saves time. Works great.

Shiloh

[primersp]

hornady makes also a neck die for each dia who cover a large bunch of caliber i have one in 25 and 1 in 30 work fine

[the_ursus]

Thanks for all the help guys. I backed the die out a half turn and found that it gave me the results I'm looking for. I was curious though, should I be pushing the press arm all the way down so that it
"cams" over?

[1hole]

"Do I need to buy a neck sizing die? Or can I just adjust my full length sizer to get the same results?"

What results do you expect to see from neck sizing?

And there is no magic in "camming over", that simply means the ram has gone passed it's highest point and is starting to go back down. ??

[the_ursus]

What results do you expect to see from neck sizing?



Well since this is a hand-me-down rifle from my dad who reloaded many rounds, he warned me of case head separation and suggested only neck sizing to prevent it. I'm merely taking his word for it since since he does usually know what he's talking about. I've also been told by him and others that neck sizing can give an accuracy advantage if said brass is used for one specific rifle.

I will take other suggestions though.

[rob45]

Well since this is a hand-me-down rifle from my dad who reloaded many rounds, he warned me of case head separation and suggested only neck sizing to prevent it. I'm merely taking his word for it since since he does usually know what he's talking about. I've also been told by him and others that neck sizing can give an accuracy advantage if said brass is used for one specific rifle.

I will take other suggestions though.

Full length sizing dies are designed to size the brass back down to a dimension to fit within any standard gun chamber. In other words, the brass will still fit in a chamber that is on the small side of the SAAMI tolerance.

Die manufacturers maintain their own set of tolerances when reaming their dies. One manufacturer's FL die may (and probably will) size smaller or larger than another manufacturer's die. The reason is because not all reamers are cut identical.
Also, some manufacturers may have a larger margin of tolerance, so they may continue to use the same reamers as they wear. As the reamer wears, a smaller die is created, and the result is a die which sizes the brass smaller. So it is entirely possible to have two different dies by the same manufacturer that are on opposite ends of the "tolerance window".
Irregardless of the variations in tolerance, all major die manufacturers will manufacture their FL dies to work safely in conjunction with both brass and chambers that are within SAAMI specs.

What I am trying to say is that problems with head separation should not be caused by FL sizing your brass. In my experience, head separation is more likely due to excessive headspace. Anyone experiencing head separation should have their gun checked first before blaming their reloading process.

With that said, I fully realize that some guns have overly generous chambers that will let the brass expand or bulge beyond the ability to be safely reloaded. But this is a gun issue, not a reloading issue.

An example is the last batch of once-fired 7.62 NATO brass I acquired. This brass had obviously been fired in a machine gun, as my usual practice of using a wire probe (to check for internal thinning at the case head) resulted in a rejection rate of over 50% (I scrapped 1126 cases out of 2014!).But this brass was fired in guns with chambers designed to function reliably under combat conditions. The brass was never originally intended to be reloaded, and the guns were never intended to shoot reloaded brass.
The remaining 888 cases were FL-sized and loaded for a Savage bolt gun. All subsequent sizing (after the initial FL sizing and firing) was neck sized only. That particular batch of brass is now on its 7th reload. I'm getting to the point of noticeable resistance in chambering, so this batch will get annealed and FL sized again, and then the whole process starts over (with a slightly lighter load). I will repeat this process until I start getting split cases.


Please do not take any of this the wrong way, as I am an ardent fan of neck sizing in those guns which can employ that method. Neck sizing usually makes the brass last longer, and it makes the final reloaded ammunition more accurate.

But unless one is using a "small-base" sizing die, full-length sizing does not impact the case head enough to be a concern, if at all. When FL sizing, the shorter case life is a result of the rest of the case being sized.
If head separation is a reality/concern, then the fault is more likely that of the gun chamber itself, not of the sizing method employed, and such a condition will usually be evident upon the first firing. Naturally, when developing hot loads in brass that has been subjected to previous firings/sizings, it is prudent to check with a case probe before the next reloading. But if one has severe thinning at the case head, it is due to being shot in a grossly oversized chamber (in comparison to the brass being employed).
The only instance (that currently comes to mind) where our reloading practices may have a negative impact on the case head is when using the "shoulder dies". These types of dies are not very common, and for good reason. They allow the reloader to adjust the position of the shoulder; essentially they allow us to adjust headspace via the case shoulder. Such dies are normally only used by those individuals in the wildcat community, and a few in the benchrest community as well.
Assuming a case that headspaces on the shoulder (as the 7x57 and all other rimless designs do), when using such a shoulder die, if the shoulder is set too far back, then we have created a situation of excessive headspace which can indeed contribute to head separation. This can also happen if we grind on the bottom of a FL die.
But, as alluded above, the FL sizing dies have the shoulder set in a fixed position that is within SAAMI specs. The bottom of the die is set to a fixed length that will contact the shellholder before pushing the shoulder down too far.


In conclusion:

1. If you are experiencing head separation (or are simply concerned about it), have your gun checked. If the chamber is that far out of spec, the gun itself needs to be corrected; there is very little we can do as reloaders to "make the brass work".

2. If the gun checks out fine and you're still having head separation problems, then the sizing die itself is suspect. That's the time to have a heart to heart talk with the die manufacturer, assuming you haven't modified the die (such as grinding on the bottom that contacts the shellholder). BTW, this also assumes one is following the manufacturers instructions when setting up the die.

3. Once the case has been shot in an oversized chamber, nothing we do as reloaders will "save" the brass. Refer to my unfortunate experience above regarding the once-fired 7.62 brass.

4. When possible, I like to neck size for best accuracy and (comparatively) long brass life. The times I FL size are:
a.) The first firing in any of my guns.
b.) Hunting/defense ammunition- chambering reliability always comes before accuracy.
c.) Some of my leveractions will reliably chamber a neck-sized round, but most will not. The same concept applies to pumps and semiautos. Just have to see what works and what doesn't, then size accordingly.
d.) Although I neck size as much as possible, there are instances where eventually I need to FL size after repeated loadings to get the brass to chamber. The need to do this or not will largely be dependent upon the individual gun's chamber, the pressures involved, and the composition of the brass (some brass is of a composition which lends itself to more "springback"). But as a general rule, I can get many firings from neck-sizing before this becomes a requirement, if indeed it becomes a requirement at all.


I hope this has helped without sounding too confusing. And if this information is contradictory to the experience of others here, what can I say? Everyone's mileage may vary.:drinks:

Good Luck.

[1874Sharps]

Let me +1 on the idea of Lee collet dies. When loading for a single rifle you don't have to worry about fitting several chambers, so the precise mandrel sizing of a Lee collet die should be perfect for your situation. They are not costly either, and they have worked very well for me in the two calibers I have them in.

[mack1]

one bonus to using a FL die to partial length size is the support the die provides the case during sizing. I used hornady neck dies for a while but you are depending on the shellholder being plumb whith the die for a concentric case. I may not have expained this very well there was a very good artical in handloader a while back. I have used fl dies instead of buying neck dies since, havent really noticed a lot of difference eather way so I donot buy extra neck dies anymore. Maby for compatition there is some gain one way or the other bun not for my shooting.

[August]

Rob, Thanks, I needed that!!!

Had some big fun at the range yesterday with a buddy's .308 rifles. One a Rem and the other a Savage. The full-sized brass was coming apart on every other shot in the Rem and working wonderfully in the Savage. The question remains (in my mind) about what the brass would do if only neck sized and used only in the Rem.

(I'm in the process of buying a 1K rifle and really having a hard time deciding between the two brands)

Thanks again for your helpful post.

[the_ursus]

So here's an update on where I stand with my sizing. I have found that my neck sized cases are chambering fairly tight, meaning, the bolt shuts hard. I've found that I don't get smooth bolt closure till my die is screwed all the way down to full length sizing. If I back the die out even an eighth of a turn, it still chambers tight. It seems like the shoulder of the case is getting crammed into the chamber and that's what's causeing the tight fit.

Any suggestions? Do I need a new die?

[largom]

Sounds like you have a zero headspace chamber. Not a bad thing really. If you wanted to keep the base of the brass unsized just remove some metal from the bottom of the die. You could still bump the shoulder and size the neck BUT if you ever needed to fully resize again you would need a new size die.

Larry

[MtGun44]

I have to largely disagree with Rob.

It is very easy to adjust dies for most examples of slightly larger than normal headspace
so that brass life is long. It is absolutely silly to overdo the resizing to some irrelevant
SAAMI dimension when you can adjust your sizing to permit the cases to chamber properly
in YOUR chamber (if you are only working with one rifle) yet expand minimally, and thereby
work the brass minimally as you fire and reload it.

There is no reason in the world to screw your sizing die all the way down when you are
using it in one gun and it was originally fired in that gun. What possible benefit is there
to resize to the maximum amount if your chamber is larger than that? It just damages
the brass unecessarily.

The best procedure is to back the sizing die off enough to avoid pushing the
shoulder back at all. This will size almost exclusively the neck, give you a grip on the
bullet (or boolit) and possibly some of the case body. This is where the ursus was
headed and it is an excellent procedure.

For the situation where you are making ammo which must fit multiple rifles, then the
process to fully size to make sure the ammo fits the tightest chamber must be used,
and it is likely that the brass life will be a bit shorter if one of the rifles has chamber
dimensions and/or headspace on the large side. If you don't need to fit multiple rifles,
why resize more than necessary? A side benefit is that the loaded rounds will be
sitting more closely in the center of the chamber and may improve accuracy.

Bill

[rob45]

I have to largely disagree with Rob.

It is very easy to adjust dies for most examples of slightly larger than normal headspace
so that brass life is long. It is absolutely silly to overdo the resizing to some irrelevant
SAAMI dimension

Bill


Bill,

I'm a bit confused concerning your disagreement with my post.

Are you saying that FL sizing is what causes head separation?
The direction of my post was to negate such statements; after all, if FL sizing is what causes head separation, I surely would not want to be a reloading die manufacturer with such liability hanging over my head. I cannot think of a single company that would manufacture/sell a FL die if the process were considered to be a leading contributing factor to head separation.

Or perhaps you interpret my post as to mean that I prefer FL-sizing over neck-sizing?
Such is not the case, and I thought that I had made that point known; my apologies if I did not maintain the clarity required for proper interpretation.


With that said, my following comments apply to my experience with bottleneck cartridges that headspace on the shoulder, as that is the concern of this thread.

I completely understand the method of "partial sizing" to which others refer, and in the past I would sometimes employ that method myself, but not very often.
Rather than using a "partial sizing" method with a FL die, I prefer to use a true neck-sizing die, and here's why:

Whenever a case is FL-sized, the die contacts the case walls, and the diameter of the case is reduced. As this occurs, the position of the shoulder (in essence, the headspace) is also set; this is controlled by the length of the die. The neck is also sized down to properly grip the bullet.
So we have three areas of contact between the die and the case whenever we FL-size our brass-
1. the body (walls)
2. the shoulder
3. the neck.

Take it from the start.
We have fired the gun, and the case has expanded to fit that chamber like a well-fitting glove. Thanks to the excellent metallurgical properties of cartridge brass, the case has (hopefully) "sprung back" ever so slightly to permit extraction from the chamber, yet it still maintains a close chamber fit. The fired case should easily fit right back into that chamber without any form of sizing. Assuming the brass will again be used in the same chamber, the object becomes sizing as little as possible.

We must size the neck; after all, some amount of clearance must be maintained in the neck portion of the chamber to allow release of the bullet upon firing, yet still be taken back down to properly grip the next bullet during reloading.
So, in a rather futile attempt to prevent having to purchase a true neck-sizing die, we take our FL die and "back it up" slightly to where it doesn't touch the shellholder in hopes that we only size the neck, since the rest of the case already fits the chamber well. We think that the only part of the case we are sizing is the neck, but in reality we are also impacting the rest of the case anytime we use a FL die.

When using a FL die to "neck size only", some people simply adjust the die back just short of touching the shellholder (usually 1/8 of a turn). Others use washers of a specific thickness between the shellholder and the bottom of the die. Still others use a shim of some sort between the locknut and top of the press. No matter which method is used, the concept remains the same- keep the die from contacting the shoulder of the case. After all, the fired case is already fitted to the chamber. The shoulder is exactly where we want it, so it's probably best to leave it alone, right?

But therein lies the problem- the FL die still sizes the body of the case. Upon entry of the case into the die, the first thing to be sized down is the body of the case. As the body is sized down, the brass has to go somewhere (since the metal is not compressible, it is extruded lengthwise). Since the die is adjusted to prevent contact with the shoulder, the shoulder of the case is now free to move forward, and probably will. So even though we think we are not impacting the shoulder of the case, we indeed are simply due to the fact that a FL die is designed to also size the case wall.
The end result is that the case shoulder is moved forward, now creating an interference fit within the chamber. This is a classic case of using the improper tool for the job. The fired case was already properly fitted to the chamber. Even if the gun's chamber was a little larger than normal, the case fits that chamber. So why would anybody want to size down the body and move the shoulder forward?

Please refer to post #18 by the_ursus to get an idea of what I am attempting to convey.

Better yet, perform a set of simple and quick experiments. After all, I am from the school that says nothing teaches better than doing.
1. Take some fired, unsized cases and chamber one of them in the same bolt gun in which it was fired. Works fine; no problems yet. Maybe not as "loose" and "easy to feed" as a factory round, but still not a problem as far as difficult chambering- you can push it right in. This is to illustrate that the brass still chambers well in that gun without any sizing whatsoever.
2. Use a true neck-sizing die. A true neck-sizing die will not size any part of the case except the neck. After sizing one of the cases using such a die, chamber it in the gun. Same easy chambering as step 1, only now the neck is properly sized to grip a new bullet, yet the rest of the case is the same as step 1; still form-fitted to the chamber.
3. Full-length size one of the cases. Adjust the die as per manufacturers directions. Chamber it in the gun- still no problem, only now the brass is sized down for easy chambering in any gun with a standard chamber.
4. Take one of the cases and adjust your full-length sizing die out in an effort to "neck-size only". Back the die out, say, an eighth of a turn short of contacting the shellholder and size the case. Now chamber the brass in your gun and compare the chambering resistance of this particular case to the resistance of the cases in steps 1-3. This case will be noticeably more resistant to chambering; in some extreme instances you may not even be able to close the bolt.

So if using a FL die "adjusted out to neck-size only" has the drawback of moving the shoulder forward, then how come people are able to do it and still chamber the brass? A couple of considerations:
A.) Recall in my post #14 above, I mentioned die tolerances. If your FL die does not size the case body very much, then not as much brass is moved into the shoulder area; as a result, the (unsupported) case shoulder is not moved as far forward. Since all FL dies are designed to size the body down some amount, this is a rather moot point, yet still a consideration.
An excellent point was made by largom in post #19. This is an old modification in which the FL die is honed out on the body portion, effectively reducing or even eliminating sizing on that part of the case. For that matter, one can also hone out the shoulder portion as well- now we have a "poor man's neck-sizer". But a Lee collet neck sizing die is very economical and also very effective.
B.) A bolt action is capable of chambering brass that has zero headspace or even a slight interference fit. But if the brass was already form-fitted to the chamber, why would we intentionally risk sizing the body and moving the shoulder forward? Even if we are able to chamber the brass, we are still eliminating the "fireformed" fit, and we are also working more than the neck. In other words, we are not truly prolonging the life of the brass as we originally intended.

Using the method of "adjusting a FL die to neck size only" does not work very well. If one does not have a true neck-sizer, I suppose the method is better than nothing. But after a couple of reloads using this method, the case shoulder is moved forward far enough so as to prevent chambering. When that happens, then we have to do a proper full-length sizing in order to move the shoulder back into proper position for reliable chambering.
Sure, I've done the adjust the die a little, smoke the shoulder and test for fit in the gun, extract and check the contact ring, etc., etc., etc. IN THE END, THE METHOD IS NOTHING MORE THAN A REDUCED FORM OF FULL-LENGTH SIZING.
Meanwhile, all that time we could have used the proper neck-sizing die and worked only the case neck. The case always stays fitted to the chamber, thereby significantly increasing the time interval before a full-length sizing is required, if it is needed at all before the brass wears out.
The only other option we have for ultimate accuracy/brass life is to have a specifically cut tight chamber, and the last I checked, benchrest precision is not the topic of this thread.

Conclusion
The purpose of neck-sizing our brass is to accomplish one of two goals (or both)- reduce working of the brass to prolong brass life, and maintain close brass-to-chamber fit for purposes of enhanced accuracy.
Remember that a true neck-sizing die will only work the neck. We cannot adjust a full-length die to accomplish this unless we alter the die itself. For the amount of aggravation that can go into such modification, we're already better off just purchasing the proper tool for the job in the first place.
No matter how we fine-tune the adjustment of a FL die, the wall and shoulder are still worked, thereby eliminating the original precise chamber fit and also decreasing the brass life more than we would like to admit.

My personal solution has always been to get both a full-length sizing die and a neck-sizing die. Then use them as they're designed to be used.

[largom]

rob45 is correct. My post on modifying the die was for a "quick fix" without spending any money. The proper and most effective method is to size the neck without doing anything to the case walls or shoulder. The Lee collet neck die's are a very effective way to achieve this but they are not available in all calibers. I use the Redding neck bushing dies which allow me to adjust neck tension as I desire, but these dies are VERY expensive and the bushings are extra. I also have a few of the Lee neck dies.

Larry

[the_ursus]

I thank everyone for their input in helping me understand what's actually happening to the case when it's sized. I nearly went through a full cup of coffee reading Rob's last post and, thanks to his clarity and thoroughness, I actually understood it! I had not taken into consideration that adjusting a FL die to neck size actually displaces case body brass into the shoulder which clearly explains why when I "neck size" with the FL die the bolt is stiff to shut. Thank you!! I couldn't understand how I was just "neck sizeing" when I could feel tension from the sizer on the case wall after I'd backed it out a half turn.
At this point, I feel like I can fully justify finding a neck sizer for the reasons stated above. Thanks again, for helping out the new guy.

[stiles]

Rob45 I'm not MtGun44 but as I understand what he was saying is that you don't need to bump the shoulder back to SAAMI size to spec but just bump the shoulder just under the size of your chamber to minimize case head stretching.

I'm just going to take 223 rem as an example. Lets assume that our rifle's headspace is right on the SAAMI field gauge which is 1.4700". For 223 rem Go gauge is 1.4640" and IIRC SAAMI size spec is ~.003" under Go, so that's 1.457". If your sizing to 1.457" you are sizing a full .013" under your chamber size. With that much difference between what your brass and your chamber and yes your cases will have a lot of stretch. On the other hand you only need to size just under .0015-.002" for function so if you sized to 1.468" your brass will last much longer.

To do this I use the Hornady LnL headspace inserts, measure a fired case that is tight in my chamber, then set the size die to bump the shoulder just .002" under that measurement.