Help & thoughts needed

[357maximum]

I will be building a heavy brass framed H&A style underhammer with a 36inch 1in straight 58caliber GM barrel. I want alot of brass on it and it will not have a forearm,,,,just a long brass pipe at the rear of the barrel for the ramrod. Gonna have express 3 blade sights also..thinking walnut for wood...but not set in stone. I have some nice dark streaked black walnut.

I want a straighter stock(think english / shotgun) than the normal hopkins and I want it a bit wider at the butt than a normal fronstuffer. It needs to be a brass buttplate.

I looked through Track of the Wolf til I got dizzy and my head hurt. I am thinking something like a cross between a fowler/hawken/enfield Mk4.....any thoughts.

Any thoughts about using the as issued enfield MK4 brass buttplate with the little trap door? How would recoil be with that plate and a loosely copied stock style???

I have the front half figgered out...I need help with the rear.

I plan to run this beast as fast and as hard as I accurately can with a PRB. (go ahead and throw my mastadon comments back at me... I deserve it):veryconfu

All opinions and thoughts are appreciated, this is not going to be a historical PRB launcher by any stretch of the imagination.
Michael

[rhbrink]

357 maximum that's along the lines of what I want to do, should work just fine. Recoil will be noticeable might want to hang on pretty tight. A number of years ago I built a heavy Hawken about 11#'s with a 1 1/8" breech tapered to 1" muzzle, I asked the barrel maker how much he would consider as a max load, his reply was as much as your shoulder would handle. A lot younger and not near as smart as now (not sure about that) I stopped at about 175 grains of 2ff. Pretty quick I dropped back to 125 grains and decided that was plenty. Also shoot a Browning BPCR that has been rebarreled to a 45 2.6, 100 grains of 2ff with a 550 grain bullet recoil is stiff but manageable. This rifle has the original buttplate {steel) shotgun style, just keep the buttplate as wide as possible maybe think about putting some cast-off in the stock as I think that that helps somewhat in the controlling the recoil.

[mooman76]

Allmost all by MLs have either a brass or steel but plate. I don't think recoil should be that bad with a wide butt like you want. The only heavey one I have though is a 58. It really depends on how you feel the recoil. I've been shooting so many years I don't really notice the recoil on m guns any more except when I shoot a big magnum. If you don't already have one, I'd get a Dixie Gunworks catalog. They are $5 but well worth it. It's a big thick catalog filled with the kind of stuff you are looking for and full of interesting things. Sounds like a good project and one of the good things about MLs is we can create out own to suit what we want.

[Potsy]

BP-Eng-2-B is Track's big, brass, English Buttplate. Just though you might have missed it while sorting through the several dozen others they have.
I like it for 2 reasons; I want to build a late period percussion English Sporter and it's about the widest, longest buttplate they've got.
As far as recoil goes, I've never shot an underhammer, I'm just kinda thinkin' you'd have a little more to hold onto with a forend on it. I can see no forend on smaller guns, but .58's are gonna buck a little. Particularly if you're not scared to load more than 1 grain per caliber or whatever the latest (or oldest) goofy rule of BP charges is.
I'm with you on loading it for all it will safely do. If you needed a squirrel gun, you'd have built a .32. I always kinda figured life for a .58RB started about 120grn. FF and went up to 140grn FF.
"Efficiency be damned, it's results were after" applies to muzzleloaders too!!!!

[northmn]

140 grns of 2f is not all that heavy of a charge for a 58 as the ball weighs in the neighborhood of 280 grains. Personally I would put a forearm on the thing as they would peremit a more natural place to place your hands for shooting and would really dress it up a lot for looks, especially with a shotgun entry thimble. The English buttplate mentioned is as good as any as the English guns were generally large bore and designed to alleviate recoil. 5" high by 2" wide with a fairly straight curve works quite well. Some of the early revolutionary war styled buttplates also fit this category and are easier to inlett, or could be modified to be inlet. You could just use a sheet brass plate for this type of project or go "poor boy" and not use any. Also consier that some gunsmiths and gun stores often have some discrded plastic buttplates laying around from recoil pad installation. Some just put in a toe plate and comb plate and used antler. Although you may not want to get too involved in making something "period correct" there is little more work involved in doing so.

Northmn

[357maximum]

I did in fact miss that one Potsy...thank you....that just might be the winner.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(lsri33nwrvaeuhf1jdho40et))/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=144&styleId=539&partNum=BP-ENG-2-B

This is going to be a playtoy for extended distance steel plate ringing and an occassional chunk of venison of course.

I am a bit of a recoil wuss, but as long as I can spread the "push" out evenly I am ok unless it is a belted magnum.

BTW I do intend to cast er off a bit...that is the beauty of starting with a hunk of tree...you can do what you wish. My .50's stock is casted off, bent and twisted :) ...I just hacked on it till it felt right and I got lucky that it looked ok.

It will get a forearm as soon as my ol man gets his relocate all squared up. I figured when that day comes I can just swallow the brass with wood and pin it in place through the pipe/barrel juncture. I am still not 100% satisfied with the encore style system I used on my 50UH. It hangs too low to make the forearm the perfect cigar shape I was after.

thanks,
Michael

[buckweet]

357 maximum that's along the lines of what I want to do, should work just fine. Recoil will be noticeable might want to hang on pretty tight. A number of years ago I built a heavy Hawken about 11#'s with a 1 1/8" breech tapered to 1" muzzle, I asked the barrel maker how much he would consider as a max load, his reply was as much as your shoulder would handle. A lot younger and not near as smart as now (not sure about that) I stopped at about 175 grains of 2ff. Pretty quick I dropped back to 125 grains and decided that was plenty. Also shoot a Browning BPCR that has been rebarreled to a 45 2.6, 100 grains of 2ff with a 550 grain bullet recoil is stiff but manageable. This rifle has the original buttplate {steel) shotgun style, just keep the buttplate as wide as possible maybe think about putting some cast-off in the stock as I think that that helps somewhat in the controlling the recoil.

once again. i must ask.....
someone to explain ? cast-off''
im working on a osage orange piece, and yes, screwed it up, but i have more.
trying to understand.

[357maximum]

once again. i must ask.....
someone to explain ? cast-off''
im working on a osage orange piece, and yes, screwed it up, but i have more.
trying to understand.

Through the magic of GOOGLE (1st hit BTW)I will let someone else splain it better than I can splain things apparently.

http://www.billhanusbirdguns.com/archive08.html

I use the term for my mistakes in gunstock making. :) As long as it fits shoot it.

I turned, twisted , and bent the stock on my .50 to make it fit my crooked form.


I may go to osage on this gun if that heavy of a wood helps balance. I rough cut some osage for a marling 336 and found it too be too heavy, which threw the balance way off....I had to scrap that plan.

[longbow]

Not sure if you have seen this site but they make big boomers so I'm guessing the stock is designed for heavy recoil:

http://pacificrifle.com/african.htm

Might give you some ideas if nothing else.

Longbow

[357maximum]

Thanks Longbow..I have spent some time there already...I:bigsmyl2: have the drewl in the keyes to prove it. I would like to handle and fire one...one time anyway.:veryconfu

[northmn]

There are two ways of making castoff for Mls but the way most commonly done is to start at the end of the wrist, fron of the comb. when I lay out blanks I place in a center line that would go through the center of the barrel top and correspondingly the center of the ramrod channel on a fullstock. That center line plane would then extend to the center of the buttplate with no castoff. I use cast off of about 1/4" for a wide buttplate and none for a narrow one. To handle recoil the buttplate should be straight on the shoulder and the comb designed to kick away fromn the face. On a gun with a heavy recoil I liek to shoot them a few times before staining and finishing. The idea of cast-off is to get a more natural line up with the sights. Right handed shooters using the left master eye used to build some interesting stocks to accomodate that form.

Northmn

[Baron von Trollwhack]

A H&A style UH has a hole in the buttstock for a bolt. Make a lead slug to put in there. Make the ramrod pipes full length out of pipe stock. Taking a thump on occasion shooting is more fun than heavy carrying always.

BvT

[FL-Flinter]

I'll throw out a few things too....

First off, reconsider the straight stock, they absolutely suck for recoil and it's going to beat the snot out of you with heavy loads. If you need a refresher course in why straight stocks suck, run 25 rounds through a 12ga Mossberg 500. :sad:

If you're intent on using a cast brass buttplate, I'd suggest an early Lancaster/Lebanon style as it has a little curve to it. Depending on who made the casting, proportions and shape can vary. I prefer the toe out just a little more and the heel in a little more as it helps give that fluid motion coming up into place on the shoulder and a nicely rounded heel helps prevent snagging on clothing. You want to the tow out a little but not too much and it depends on the shape of the stock as to what amount of toe extension is just right. You definitely want some curve on the buttplate, not a whole lot, definitely nothing like a Vincent! You want enough curve to match your shoulder so as to keep from getting the recoil concentrated in one spot. 1.875" is plenty wide enough, that 0.125" difference to the lesser of 2" doesn't seem like much but it'll often make a huge difference in handling. Too-wide is like too-much curve and too-much heel protrusion ... unless you're really wide at the shoulders (25"+) a 2"+ wide buttplate is more likely to catch the shoulder joint, collar bone or dig the inside lower corner into the rib cage, no matter what, it's gonna hurt if the gun has any kind of recoil to it. I put a .62 Jeager together using parts the customer he purchased somewhere as a kit. It was made for an almost no-curve 2" wide buttplate and the straight stock, even with just 80gr of 2F it was very uncomfortable to shoot. Most of my customers, myself included, are more concerned with good shootability than they are with exact replication.

The amount of cast is going to be determined by the geometry of your individual body; the width of your shoulders in relation to length of your neck and roundness of your face. American gun buyers have been trapped by mass-production guns into thinking what a stock should look and feel like simply because there are extremely few options as the entire basis of mass-production boils down to: How can we use the least amount of materials and the least amount of labor ... thus, is what leads us to the slim, straight American/English style stocks that suck for user interface. You can induce the cast at the wrist or just prior to the begining of the comb, just remembe, the further back you start with the cast, the more abrupt the transition will be and if you get it too abrupt, it's likely going to be a cheek bone masher.

Last but not least is LOP. About 99% of guns have a LOP that is way too long for the average shooter. If you have to intentionally extend or stretch your arms to get the gun shouldered, the LOP is too-long. The LOP is correct when the gun comes effortlessly into place and in alignment with a distant point you are focused on. If you have to think about bringing the gun up into place or adjust alignment after you get it shouldered, the LOP is too-long. The typical "assumed" LOP measurement is from the inside of the elbow joint to the tip of the index finger less 0.750-1" which puts the LOP at roughly 0.50-1.25" longer than it should be for the majority of shooters. Also consider that when wearing 13 layers of cloths or a thick jacket to keep from freezing to death during hunting season in yank land, you'll need to knock more off the LOP to counter the additional clothing thickness and increased limitation of movement.

Here's a .58 x 1:72 that one of my customers used to fill his freezer this past season. Note the stock shape and the need for a recoil pad to be added. Barrel is 34" tapered from about 1.060" at the breech to about 0.950" at the muzzle. He settled on either 120gr or140gr of 2F and a swaged 0.570" ball because he doesn't cast his own yet. Since you said you wanted to crank this one up, I'll remind you to not forget the lessons learned by Forsyth and others ... increasing velocity on soft lead balls will increase expansion and subsequently decrease penetration. Higher alloy lead balls will have less expansion but increased penetration proportional to velocity increased.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Testimonials/Kyle_R_Elk_hunt_2009_as_he_lay_2.jpg


Recovered ball from quartering shot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Testimonials/Kyle_R_Elk_hunt_2009_ball_before_af.jpg

[357maximum]

Thanks Mark...I have been waiting for you to join the party.

The brass buttplate idea is stuck in my head due to frame material. I spose a red colored kick eez would not look terrible though...hmmm

Stock shape can be anything I want (starting with a blank)...and I will likely start big and work my way till it feels right. I doubt it will end up straight as they never do when i make em feel "right". I understand the cheek mashing part real well...I have several shotguns with a dish cutout in the side of the stock.

How did that elk rifle balance?

This will be 32 inch straight 1inch barrel....I have thought of going shorter...but I want to do some long distance steel killin..thus the 3blade sight...and the 32 inch barrel.

I think the 32inch standard straight 1inch GreenMountain barrel will be muzzle heavy, but am unsure..nothing to compare it to......still torn on that decision. Will likely just start long and see....I have the means to cut the barrel off and recrown if need be.......down the line sometime after I play with it for a bit.


thanks again,
Michael

[FL-Flinter]

32" straight isn't bad in 1" with the 0.580" hole in the middle, when you get to 34" or 36" the muzzle mass starts being a prudent issue. The standard H&A underhammer is a lopsided dilly with a bigger bore or longer barrel to begin with but using a higher mass stock makes a huge difference. My bullet shooters use a 36" octagon tapered from 1.0625"ish at the breech to 0.875"ish at the muzzle and with my stock style, they hold off-hand like it's sitting on the bench. My arms, neck & shoulders are screwed-up ... severe carpal tunnel in both, ulnar nerve damage in both, osteo arthritis in all my joints, nerve damage in my right shoulder, three wedge fratures in my cervical with two displaced discs and DJ&S on top of all that ... yep, balance & fit is extremely important to me.

On my big bores and big-bullet shooters, the buttplate comes out 5" - 5.25" high and 1.750" - 1. 1.875" wide, I normally make my own buttplates. Nice thing is, if need be, some ballast can be added to the butt for fine tuning but you'll find that using a non-whimpy stock works out quite well on its own.

[buckweet]

geeze , i wish you would quit flashing that picture around,

it cost me money. :)

[rhbrink]

Michael, if you think about something besides a metal buttplate Pachmayer makes a Old English style with a black base, black or brown pad with no white spacers looks good and is very functional. The large size is about 1.9 X 5 3/4 inches. I have put a couple on BPCR rifles and they worked out great, look good and something that I like about them is that they don't slide around on your shoulder.

[northmn]

Straight barrels balance differently than tapered. Even a shorter staright will be more muzzle heavy. I am looking at an English inspired flintlock with a straight 1" 58 barrel and will likely go to about 30", but will have more breech weight than an underhammer. A lot of longrifles built with straight barrels had lead placed under the buttplate. My 54 has a barrel tapered from 1" to 7/8 and is much easier to hold offhand as do "swamped" barrels. If you use a straight barrel expect to have a little muzzle heaviness. I built a 12 bore fowler with a broad buttplate like discussed. Due to distractions I accidently double powder charged a 1 1/4 oz load at a trap shoot. It really bellered, and kicked but did not hurt so much as rocked me back. If properly built, you can make a stock that does not hurt to shoot. A cast off can be made that does not hit the cheek, but it is best to shoot the thing before finishing to see that it does not.

Northmn

[Potsy]

.357 Maximum,
I'd love to see some pics of your rifle when you get it done.
I do have a question, I'm not sure of all of my "facts" so bear with me.
I think the H & A's had a set screw holding the barrel in place, and I think the Pacific Rifle's barrels are threaded to the lock, I'm just wondering what the best way to secure a heavy recoiling underhammer barrel is. Particularly if you want to remove it for cleaning, but have it re-mount securely and in the same position so if you have a peep sight on the lock, POI doesn't change.

[357maximum]

.357 Maximum,
I'd love to see some pics of your rifle when you get it done.That will be some time.
I do have a question, I'm not sure of all of my "facts" so bear with me.
I think the H & A's had a set screw holding the barrel in place,The Numerich made H&A had a tapered cross pin going through the receiver and through the breechplug. and I think the Pacific Rifle's barrels are threaded to the lock,I understanf that to be correct also. I'm just wondering what the best way to secure a heavy recoiling underhammer barrel is. Particularly if you want to remove it for cleaning, but have it re-mount securely and in the same position so if you have a peep sight on the lock, POI doesn't change.


I see no reason the 3 setscrews would not hold it sufficiently. If you shot it awhile and let the breech plug "set in" to where it wants to be and then dimple the plug where the setscrews go....I do not see it moving. My pistol frame was done this way and it only has 1 setscrew on each side. There is no setscrew on the top as it would interfere with my receiver mounted sight. It works just fine .

[FL-Flinter]

Posty,

I've been shooting the H&A set-screw style for years and never had any problems. I normally dimple the breechplug for the top screw and use a tapered screw so when you pull the barrel off or swap it with another barrel, the taper on the screw and plug bring it right back into place every time. On the H&A and my own actions, the breech end of the barrel buts tight to the action face plus you have the 5/8" dowelpin/breechplug going into the action, it's a far superior mechanical connection than the hook-breeches that were used on English guns including the huge-bore doubles. If you've ever messed with a Mowrey or similar rifles where the barrel is threaded to the action, they're a pain in the butt and you can't swap barrels without major hassles. Pinned barrels are problematic too, swapping barrels is a pain in the backside and when the pin hole wears or otherwise get buggered-up, you have to ream the holes and make your own pins - goes back to making things cheaper & faster on the assembly line. I don't recall who but at some point I saw an underhammer with a double-treaded breechplug, screwed into the barrel on one end and breech on the other. That's all fine and dandy but the slightest amount of wear on the threads, action face or breech face and you're barrel is not going to stop in the same position every time ... so then what? Shim washers?

The weakest point of any gun is the wrist and I've got that problem cured.

[357maximum]

Still waiting to see a pic of that cure[smilie=l:

I am thinking that if I am going to modernize this critter with a wusspad I might just go ahead and put something like this just in front of the receiver mounted to the barrel:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=783162

I KNOW they work well...little ugly but they work...I will just have to make it fit the bigger barrel.......I know how to do that .... I wrap emery around the object to be fit and stroke away...it works well if you pay attention to what you are doing.

Whats the point of a high dollar and classy express sight at that point right? UTILITARIAN....I can live with that. "Cheating" a peep for distance is something I am good at so why not?

[45 2.1]

A good plan would be to copy the H&A underhammer in 58. I got to shoot a friends brothers rifle about 15 years ago. Nice rifle of approximately the right weight for heavy charges.