I gotta try it..............

[Tazman1602]

OK been reading the threads here for a while now and am pretty sure you guys have me hooked. Don't have a Shiloh Sharps. Have always wanted one. Aren't going to be able to afford one for a while yet and don't want to shoot BP through my 45-70 Marlin (pain to clean, correct me if I'm wrong..) BUT.....due to Bullshop here I've managed to latch on to a Gibbs Rifle Co. 45-70 soon to be coming (Enfield action in 45-70) and have given it some thought.

Now I'm at my favorite Black Powder shop today (OK, the only one for 100 miles......) getting some FFFg for my revolver and before I know what's going on I'm asking for a can of FFg...

Now I *think* I've managed to glean some information here:

1. BP ain't smokeless. The case needs to be full of BP or a filler of some kind needs to be used or it can become a bomb.

2. Weapon needs to be cleaned with hot soapy water after use

3. ANYTHING petroleum related will cause issues with BP (crisco, etc OK)

4. BP + cast = bigfun

5. BP is measured by volume, not by weight same as pyrodex

6. I'm going to be frustrated to no end until I get things right

Now I've looked for a "BPCR" starter thread. I'd really like to NOT screw up so bad I get hurt or ruin a rifle and I have ZERO BP experience although have a lot with pyrodex and pyrodex pellets but have always used saboted loads in my old Knight rifle (I know, I know...)

Can anyone point me at a thread that gives the basics or do you have any advice to offer? Shoot you can even make references to my mom, I know all about her and like her just the same.

I'd take advice on the revolver too, pyrodex is my only experience with that one and yes I know not to let go of it if it chains off and to pack the cylinder with bore butter or crisco to prevent it. I've still got brown stains on my jeans from when I first tried revolvers 25 years ago and haven't tried it since.

Many Thanks,

Art

[DLCTEX]

Sounds as if you have the basics, load up and let fly. Experience is the best teacher if you are smart enough to ask questions if something doesn't work right.

[4060MAY]

http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

a good source for starting out

[218bee]

All kinds of info.....but just keep it simple. I like the Lee hollowbase boolit for my trapdoor, use a drop tube with about 60-65grs of 2F put a wad over that and seat boolit so it touches the powder or compresses it a bit and go out and touch it off....you'll be hooked and amazed at how it'll shoot. Have fun

[Tazman1602]

THANK YOU for all the good info, time to quit talking and go shooting as soon as the new rifle comes in. I'll try the revolver out this weekend and if you see a new guy with the username "stubby" posting next week you'll know I screwed up.

Art

[RayinNH]

Take some "Wet Ones"(hand wipes) with you to the range. Your hands will be filthy from the black powder and the Crisco all over the gun. The pre-lubed felt wads between powder and ball work really well to prevent chain firing and are much much cleaner to use...Ray

[Tazman1602]

Dang it. My black powder guy had mentioned those at first, he's hugely into the "rendevous" thing, Sharps rifles, old flintlocks and front stuffers then he suggested I only load one chamber at a time to figure out where my load was going to be in the revolver. I *should* have bought some because I've got a feeling I'm gonna use up some good corn meal for putting between the powder and ball. Pietta had an outrageous load of BP for that thing -- IIRC I think they said 35grs of BP which I wouldn't even attempt in an open top pistol, Cabela's had a very stern warning about exceeding 25grs or even using 25grs for extended shooting without significantly shortening the life of the revolver.

I'm thinking a starting charge of 15grs of FFFg to start???? And thanks for the suggestion of Wet Ones, I'll steal some from wife.

.......My "range" is right out my basement door thank God! :Fire:

If anyone's interested Cabela's still has this pistol on sale for $119, I thought that was a REALLY good deal which is why I have it. Gotta find my nipple wrench now too.......

Thanks again!!

Art


Take some "Wet Ones"(hand wipes) with you to the range. Your hands will be filthy from the black powder and the Crisco all over the gun. The pre-lubed felt wads between powder and ball work really well to prevent chain firing and are much much cleaner to use...Ray

[Tazman1602]

http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

a good source for starting out

THAT was well worth the read! Thank you!

Art

[Tazman1602]

All kinds of info.....but just keep it simple. I like the Lee hollowbase boolit for my trapdoor, use a drop tube with about 60-65grs of 2F put a wad over that and seat boolit so it touches the powder or compresses it a bit and go out and touch it off....you'll be hooked and amazed at how it'll shoot. Have fun

The 405gr HB for the 45-70? Is that the one you're talking about?

Darn, don't have that mold...................YET!

Art

[wills]

Also see
http://www.bpcr.net
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Technical_Information.htm
and in particular
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

You can make things easier on yourself and use SPG which is a blackpowder lube and will let you get started without having to worry about that as a variable. http://www.blackpowderspg.com/lube.html A lube with petroleum products will combine with the burning sulfur in the blackpowder to create tar in your barrel, which you may or may not be able to remove.

You do not need gaschecked boolits for BPCR and they may not be legal for competition.

Some people use WW and there are a lot who Alloy lead/tin at 20/1 or 30/1. (If you have a source of certified lead and tin, you can decide to you want to spend time hunting wheelweights or money buying lead/tin.)

Immediately after shooting decap, and drop the cases into a jug of water & detergent. I use a decapper from James C. Hagar 918-342-3465. When you get home, chuck a bore brush into an electric drill and brush out the inside. Put the cases in a vibratory tumbler and let them tumble with the lid off until they are clean and dry. Do this somewhere the dust from the tumbler wont be a problem.

The powder measure manufacturers will say must have a special measure for black. There are other points of view. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=142145#post142145
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

Regard a drop tube as a must. You can build it yourself like this http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/DROPTUBE2.jpg or thishttp://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/DROPTUBE.jpg The second one is facing you, imagine a large capital letter E. Or buy it from Buffalo Arms.

If your boolit holds enough lube, you may not need a grease cookie.



Shiloh Sharps
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/


Croft Barker; The Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook CISTERN PUBLISHING COMPANY, 14010 North State HWY 95 ,Flatonia, Texas 7894
Tel:(361) 865-0030 Fax: (361)865-0031,katbark@pcguns.net
http://www.cisternpublishing.org/

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

http://www.riflesmith.com/shoots.html

http://www.goexpowder.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/

You have to kind of fight with the NEI website, the second url gives you pictures of the boolits.
http://www.neihandtools.com/

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

[fogman]

Gotta find my nipple wrench now too.......

Art[/QUOTE]

I've got the Pietta target model in .44. I had 1 nipple that was difficult to remove. I took a 1/4" drive 3/16" socket and notched it with a dremel cutoff wheel so that it fit. Attached to a 1/4" nut driver it makes removing/installing the nipples 1000 times easier. I'll try to post some pics later today.

[218bee]

Yeah the Lee 405 HB is what I mentioned above, its cheap and works in my trapdoor without sizing so its a quick start maybe...I do not use grease cookie but USUALLY a thin veg fiber wad over powder to compress it. Don't overtink it keep it simple at first to get your feet wet then you can get as technical as you want but first just have fun. I think that Gibbs would be a hoot to shoot. Good luck.

[1874Sharps]

I have always thought the Gibbs 45-70 would be a great addition to my gun safe, or anyone else's. It is strong and could also be used for stout smokeless loads as well. I think, though, that you will find the loading and shooting of BP cartridges to be much more fun and challenging. There are some major differences and challenges with BPCR that I think you will find singularly enjoyable. When I started down the path to the "Darkside" years ago with the Sharps, I nearly turned back to smokeless because after several pounds of powder and a bunch of lead things just were not working out (I did have some unreasonable expectations, though). Finally, things clicked and groups shrunk and it felt quite satisfying. On the other hand, I saw a forum member (Hubertus) have good success on his first attempt on making his own BP lube and casting and loading the Lee 405 grain HB boolit in his 28" barreled rolling block. You may very well have such success.

[Hubertus]

Just try it! It’s more fun than you might think, I got hooked the first time I pulled the trigger on a Black Powder load in my Rolling Block.
Although I am far from a level to give recommendations, the Lee 405 HB worked pretty well for me, as 1874Sharps mentioned. Actually we had the fun to test the loads of my first homecast boolits together. That was a good day! There will be some more tests needed but the first 20 rounds showed promise.
On top of that it was easy to load them, too. It may sound strange but I just filled cases through a drop tube and added little compression (1/16”) no over powder wad but under powder/over primer cigarette paper wad, topped of with the lubed boolit - that’s it. Powder was Swiss 1 ½ fg 69.5 grains by weight, primer CCI 200.
In terms of the powder I used Lee dippers to charge the cases, but measured the dipped amount repetetively to get the weight reading.

Have fun making smoke!

Hubertus

[cajun shooter]

Try to find a copy of Sam Fadala's 5th edition of the Blackpowder Handbook as it will help with a lot of your questions about the different types of BP shooting. Your #5 is wrong. BP is measured in grains and is not volume loaded. This rumor started with the fake powders and has continued to confuse many people when they first start shooting. I have even seen so called experts repeat this on TV. Real BP is weighed in grains. How do you think the old cartridges were named? 45-70, 45-90 38-55, 44-40 and so on. The rear numerial is for the amount of grains loaded. Look at any old box of cartridges and you will see a grain weight. BP was not even called BP untill the advent of smokeless powder. Up until that time it was just powder. Because of the makeup of all the subistute powders which are for the most part smokeless in nature with a smoke making additive. They are much more powerful than BP and therefore if they were loaded in equal amount of grains, the load would be a overload and cause damage. They are loaded to fill the same space as BP. The actual grain weight of them is much less than the BP. Welcome to the world of BP shooting. I hope you have many a fine day with the shooting of it. I love to see new shooters getting involved so that this sport will carry on.Later David

[Tazman1602]

Man thanks so much for all the great pointer and advice guys. I'm gonna get a Lee 405gr HB when finances allow and will try that. I'm not going to overthing anything and it'll be a couple of weeks before the Gibbs gets here at least but I've always wanted one of those. When I had money about six months ago I found that Gibbs no longer made them and then Bullshop posted he did at a very reasonable price and a great family to deal with too, all of them.

I've always wanted a Gibbs because that Enfield action is one tough sonofagun, heavy, but tough and the ones I've seen at gun shows are very nice.

As far as accuracy expectations at first? Well, let me say this. The first bullets I cast for rifles about 15 or 20 years ago were, ah, well, poopy shall we say? Couldn't hit a thing much less the paper. I'm sure some of them are still in orbit. After finding this forum and actually learning some things I've had great sucess lately in my .450 Marlin and my 45-70 Marlin with cast.............still working on the .444 but found that thing has a very large barrel, ok not large for the gun now that I've read some but a .430 bullet is too small since the barrel slugs at somewhere around .4315 (don't have notes in front of me now...). Got a size die fixed for that and gonna wait till I can chrony some loads before I try to get that worked out with the 300 grain bullets I want to shoot with it.

Now as far as BP and the 45-70 when I start out my accuracy expectations are that I *should* be able to keep in on a sheet of 4' x 8' OSB at 50 yards to begin with. Let me know if thats a bit ambitious or what!

THANKS!

Art

[RayinNH]

[QUOTE=Tazman1602;77388

Now as far as BP and the 45-70 when I start out my accuracy expectations are that I *should* be able to keep in on a sheet of 4' x 8' OSB at 50 yards to begin with. Let me know if thats a bit ambitious or what!

THANKS!

Art[/QUOTE]


Is that with your eyes closed? :mrgreen:...Ray

[Tazman1602]

Is that with your eyes closed? :mrgreen:...Ray

Now it's probably because I'm gonna tie the rifle down in the rest the first couple of times with a string on the trigger..............:kidding:

Nah, that was just a figure of speech man. When I'm working up a new load for anything I don't expect results right off the bat. It's just easier that way. Then if I do get good results I'm happy.

How's that go? "Hope for the best but be prepared for the worst"????

[John-n-va]

Try to find a copy of Sam Fadala's 5th edition of the Blackpowder Handbook as it will help with a lot of your questions about the different types of BP shooting. Your #5 is wrong. BP is measured in grains and is not volume loaded. This rumor started with the fake powders and has continued to confuse many people when they first start shooting. I have even seen so called experts repeat this on TV. Real BP is weighed in grains. How do you think the old cartridges were named? 45-70, 45-90 38-55, 44-40 and so on. The rear numerial is for the amount of grains loaded. Look at any old box of cartridges and you will see a grain weight. BP was not even called BP untill the advent of smokeless powder. Up until that time it was just powder. Because of the makeup of all the subistute powders which are for the most part smokeless in nature with a smoke making additive. They are much more powerful than BP and therefore if they were loaded in equal amount of grains, the load would be a overload and cause damage. They are loaded to fill the same space as BP. The actual grain weight of them is much less than the BP. Welcome to the world of BP shooting. I hope you have many a fine day with the shooting of it. I love to see new shooters getting involved so that this sport will carry on.Later David

Thank you so much for this post cajun shooter. I have been shooting BP for many years but when I saw someone who was supposedly an authority say volumn vs weight, it confused me no end. I continued loading weight because it made sense. Great post!!!!

[longbow]

My old Siamese Mauser in .45-70 liked the Lyman 457125 (500 gr.) and using smokeless loads would pop balloons at 300 yards.

My old Marlin 1895 liked the 457124 (385 gr.) and got a lot of use with black powder.

Both plain base boolits by the way.

To be honest, I was young and trigger happy and don't think I ever shot groups on targets. Or at least I didn't keep track of any if I did shoot groups. No competition shooting for sure.

Both were used for balloons, gongs, plates and "that little rock over there...". As for actual accuracy, I have no clue but both shot well enough to maintain minute of 12" gong at 200 yards.

Bullets were unsized, lubed by hand, charges thrown by Lee powder scoops and loads assembled with Lee Loader.

Point being is an unsophisticated, not too bright young guy got decent accuracy with very basic equipment.

My cleaning solvent of choice back then was Hoppe's #9 Plus (I do love the smell). Never had a problem with either gun by cleaning the barrels and any fouling in the actions with Hoppes #9 Plus. Probably my smartest choice.

Nowadays when I take out a front stuffer (the other two are long gone unfortunately), I just use very hot soapy water, dry and wipe down with WD40 and gun oil.

I think you can and will have a lot of fun and can get reasonable accuracy without over complicating your life. I think you will do a lot better than minute of 4' x 8' OSB at 50 yards.

I suggest using a proven black powder lube at least to start. Fouling is your enemy!

Longbow

[Gunlaker]

Now as far as BP and the 45-70 when I start out my accuracy expectations are that I *should* be able to keep in on a sheet of 4' x 8' OSB at 50 yards to begin with. Let me know if thats a bit ambitious or what!
Art

Just keep it simple to start. No point ordering special moulds or any of that yet. Find pretty much any softish cast bullet of appropriate diameter. Pan lube it with any of the many recipies you'll find on this site. Fill the case such that there is no air gap and put in a 0.030" wad between powder and bullet (you can buy 1000 of them for $18 at Buffalo Arms).

I'd be surprised if you get worse groups than 6" at 100 yards.

Right now my worst shooting BP rifle is 5" groups of a half dozen shots @ 100 yards, but this is because I've just started load development for it.

There are a lot of myths around that say that BP is hard to get accuracy out of. It does take more effort to get accuracy out of them, but certainly nothing anywhere near missing a 4x8 sheet @ 50 yards. A lot has been re-learned about shooting BP in the last 20 years. You can benefit greatly from this by just doing some reading. It sounds like you already have :D

Good luck and have fun!

Chris.

[Tazman1602]

Try to find a copy of Sam Fadala's 5th edition of the Blackpowder Handbook as it will help with a lot of your questions about the different types of BP shooting. Your #5 is wrong. BP is measured in grains and is not volume loaded. This rumor started with the fake powders and has continued to confuse many people when they first start shooting. I have even seen so called experts repeat this on TV. Real BP is weighed in grains. How do you think the old cartridges were named? 45-70, 45-90 38-55, 44-40 and so on. The rear numerial is for the amount of grains loaded. Look at any old box of cartridges and you will see a grain weight. BP was not even called BP untill the advent of smokeless powder. Up until that time it was just powder. Because of the makeup of all the subistute powders which are for the most part smokeless in nature with a smoke making additive. They are much more powerful than BP and therefore if they were loaded in equal amount of grains, the load would be a overload and cause damage. They are loaded to fill the same space as BP. The actual grain weight of them is much less than the BP. Welcome to the world of BP shooting. I hope you have many a fine day with the shooting of it. I love to see new shooters getting involved so that this sport will carry on.Later David

OK now you have me wondering as I just went back and read this three time. I DID know that 30-30 was 30 cal over 30 grains of BP etc but was always taught that was weight by volume and NOT weight and never could figure out why.

NOW I"m going to have to take my BP measure downstairs and see what the weight on my scale is compared to the volume of the measure -- or am I barking up the wrong tree here and trying to make things hard on myself???? I don't care, it's cold outside so I've nothing better to do anyway and just about to head out to shoot a *little*. Dam cold weather. Started as sunshine and 30 degrees and now it's down the the low 20's but the winds done kicked up........

Thanks,

Art

[Tazman1602]

Just keep it simple to start. No point ordering special moulds or any of that yet. Find pretty much any softish cast bullet of appropriate diameter. Pan lube it with any of the many recipies you'll find on this site. Fill the case such that there is no air gap and put in a 0.030" wad between powder and bullet (you can buy 1000 of them for $18 at Buffalo Arms).

I'd be surprised if you get worse groups than 6" at 100 yards.

Right now my worst shooting BP rifle is 5" groups of a half dozen shots @ 100 yards, but this is because I've just started load development for it.

There are a lot of myths around that say that BP is hard to get accuracy out of. It does take more effort to get accuracy out of them, but certainly nothing anywhere near missing a 4x8 sheet @ 50 yards. A lot has been re-learned about shooting BP in the last 20 years. You can benefit greatly from this by just doing some reading. It sounds like you already have :D

Good luck and have fun!

Chris.

DOH!!!! That's right, I almost forgot that. Now I have to cast some bullets and read up on lubes for BP.

Thanks

Art

[Cheshire Dave]

I'm thinking about trying some BP loads in my Marlin 1895. A buddy has the Lee 405 HB mould. Clean up is what keeps me from doing it. I have a Muzzle loader that I just pull the barrel off and use hot water then Bore Butter. Couldn't I make up a funnel attached to a case to flush out my Marlin? How do others clean their Leverguns?

[1874Sharps]

Taz,

For most all shooting with BPCR (except the most demanding long range target shooting) measuring powder charge by volume instead of by weight will give good results. That does not mean that you cannot or should not measure by weight, but rather that the tolerance of weight is a little broader compared to smokeless. My little Lyman No. 55 drops a pretty consistent charge (a little less than 0.2 grain variation) at 70 grains. But then, I shoot mid-range 45-70 for hunting and informal target shooting at 400 yards or less.

[montana_charlie]

I DID know that 30-30 was 30 cal over 30 grains of BP
The .30-30 Winchester cartridge was designed for use in the (new) Model 94 lever action. It was originally loaded with smokeless...was the first commercial smokeless cartridge...and was never intended to be loaded with 30 grains of black powder.

The 30-40 Krag was the first smokeless cartridge accepted by the Army as a standard issue round, and (also) had no relation to a 40 grain charge of black powder.

but was always taught that was weight by volume and NOT weight and never could figure out why
Black powder was normally measured by volume prior to the appearance of metallic cartridges because the rifleman carried the measure in his pouch, and filled it from his horn or flask. If it was a '70 grain' measure, it was pure chance if an individual thrown charge would actually weigh that amount.
But it's true that something in the general range of 70 grains of powder was considered to be a useful charge for a .45 caliber bullet when fired from a muzzle loader.
So, it's not surprising that (for instance) a 45/70 cartridge would emerge which had a case of about the same volume as a muzzle loader's '70 grain' powder measure.

The surprising thing about the old pocket type measures was...no matter who made it, all '70 grain' measures held almost exactly the same volume.
The variations in charge weight due to granulation size and powder density did not seem to enter into construction of the measure's volume.
It's almost like measure makers were using some more relaible 'standard' for establishing the volume of the tool.

The standardization was precise enough that makers of black powder substitutes relied on the same volumes - established in those old measures - for metering safe charges of their (modern) propellants.

NOW I"m going to have to take my BP measure downstairs and see what the weight on my scale is compared to the volume of the measure -- or am I barking up the wrong tree here and trying to make things hard on myself?
If that is the kind of measure which fits in your pocket...not a bench mounted unit...try weighing the amount of water it will hold at a certain setting.

See if a setting of '70' holds 70 grains of water.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Better yet beins that water don't burn worth ****, try some 2f bp in it. Should be really close.

[StrawHat]

I am suprised that THE BOOK, has not been mentioned.

http://www.the45-70book.com/The-Book-3rd-Edition-by-Spence-Pat-Wolf

Well worth the price of admission. May be at your local library but if not, the have a bunch they want to sell.

I keep thing simple, after I figure out what weight of powder I need, I make a measure to scoop it out and put it through the tube into my brass. A grease cookie, a bullet and we're done. The beautiful thing about BPCR is you can make it as simple or complex as you want. Accuracy is also dependant on your needs. I do not compete anymore so I am content with loads that are not what some of the fellows shooting at 1000 yards would even consider. You get to load what you like.

Bottom line is to be safe and have fun.