Cap & Ball and Swiss 1 1/2 fg??

[Hubertus]

Gentlemen, again I need your help.
The forum severely infected me with the Black Powder – ritis.
Due to the help and good information on this board I think I am making some progress with my 45-70, but that is not the issue here.
Meanwhile I am thinking about opening a little side project, a Cap and Ball Revolver.

The search function helped me a lot and I like the looks of the 1860 Colt model or the 1862 police. The Starr seems a good choice too, but that depends on the availability and price here in Germany – as mentioned this is only supposed to be a side project. There are two questions bothering me: one what caliber to choose .36 or .44? Caliber questions are always a matter of preference but still I would like to know your take on it.
The second and even more important one is: I can only store 1 kg of BP, by law. Since the main project is the 45-70 I have 1 kg of Swiss 1 ½ fg. I can’t go and get fffg because I would be over my allowed limit. The smallest amount to buy is 1kg around here. Did somebody use 1 ½ fg in a C&B? To my understanding it should be safe to use since I heard of people using ffg and fffg. What do you think could be the issues besides the increased fouling over fffg? Please comment.

Hubertus

[elk hunter]

Either caliber is fun and since you will probably only be shooting paper, the 36 is a little cheaper to feed but harder to find round ball for if you don't make your own. As for the powder, fffg is what I have always used for handguns. Since you can't possess more than small quantities you may want to locate someone in your area that shoots black powder that will share powder with you, each of you having some of each granulation to stay within the possession limit.

Good luck.

[44man]

A little more fouling and a lower velocity. Swiss IS faster then other powders so it should be OK.
I would use STP oil treatment on the cylinder pin, it will allow more shots before the cylinder starts to get sluggish and it will prevent wear.
Since you already shoot the 45-70 and should have a good BP boolit lube, just use that lube in front of the ball on the revolver. The thicker lube will not blow out of the next chamber as bad as the thin stiff like Crisco and will help keep fouling softer.
Go ahead and do it, just keep us posted on your results.

[MtGun44]

I strongly recommend that you NOT use the 'fill the area over the ball with ______" and
various greases (Crisco) used. I did this for years and never knew any better. The gun was covered
in black gook, slimed up and relatively quickly became unshootable as the black powder
fouling and grease bound up the whole mechanism. I thought that this was just the way
that black powder revolvers worked. Boy was I wrong!

I ran across Elmer Keith's recommendation, which he reports was taught to him as a child
by old Civil War soldiers. He made up felt wads soaked with tallow between the powder and
the ball and nothing over the ball. I found the Wonder Wads which are felt wads soaked
in their particular BP lube. THESE ARE FANTASTIC !!! Quick and painless to use, the gun
stays pretty nearly clean, and you can shoot at least 6-8 cylinders full without binding. I
can't say beyond that as this is as much as I usually do in a range session due to the time
taken to load. It actually looks like you could shoot it much longer.

Even if you have to scrounge up some felt ( about 3 mm would be good), cut little round
wads with a gasket cutter and soak them with melted tallow (sheep internal fat) you will
be very happy with the results. If you can't make your own or find the Wonder Wads let
me know, I may be able to get some for you to try.

As to caliber. not much to choose. Both have modest recoil and good accy in my experience
with a Colt 3rd gen 1861 Navy .36 and a Pieta 1860 Army .44.

Bill

[44man]

I strongly recommend that you NOT use the 'fill the area over the ball with ______" and
various greases (Crisco) used. I did this for years and never knew any better. The gun was covered
in black gook, slimed up and relatively quickly became unshootable as the black powder
fouling and grease bound up the whole mechanism. I thought that this was just the way
that black powder revolvers worked. Boy was I wrong!

I ran across Elmer Keith's recommendation, which he reports was taught to him as a child
by old Civil War soldiers. He made up felt wads soaked with tallow between the powder and
the ball and nothing over the ball. I found the Wonder Wads which are felt wads soaked
in their particular BP lube. THESE ARE FANTASTIC !!! Quick and painless to use, the gun
stays pretty nearly clean, and you can shoot at least 6-8 cylinders full without binding. I
can't say beyond that as this is as much as I usually do in a range session due to the time
taken to load. It actually looks like you could shoot it much longer.

Even if you have to scrounge up some felt ( about 3 mm would be good), cut little round
wads with a gasket cutter and soak them with melted tallow (sheep internal fat) you will
be very happy with the results. If you can't make your own or find the Wonder Wads let
me know, I may be able to get some for you to try.

As to caliber. not much to choose. Both have modest recoil and good accy in my experience
with a Colt 3rd gen 1861 Navy .36 and a Pieta 1860 Army .44.

Bill
Yes, that works fine too and might be better for target shooting.
I use the thick BPCR lube that helps with the gook. Because I deer hunt with my gun, I want all the powder I can fit behind the ball and don't want to use powder space for either a wad or a boolit.
But since lighter loads can be more accurate, target shooters might even want two wads under the ball.
I failed to see where Hubertus was from and now see he is not going to be hunting much of anything.

[mooman76]

Can you get BP substitute there or would that count toward your 1kg of BP also?

[shooting on a shoestring]

I've had a .36 Remington clone since the 70s. It was my bedside gun in my college years in Socorro, NM. Its real hoot to shoot. Groups well, makes lots of smoke. However, I have always wanted the .44 Remington, just not bad enough to buy one. So count my vote towards the .44.

I do highly urge anyone shooting a Cap and Ball to pay very close attention to getting proper nipple/cap fit. Change which ever one you have to in order to get caps that SEAL the nipples from chain fires. Do not pinch caps oval trying to get them to stay on! Get the right sized caps, or get the right sized nipples.

As far as the 1 1/2 Swiss...I believe it'll shoot. I think it would work better in the .44 than the .36. Let us know!

[JIMinPHX]

I do highly urge anyone shooting a Cap and Ball to pay very close attention to getting proper nipple/cap fit.

+1 on that. Change or modify the nipples if you have to, but do what it takes to get a good fit. It's worth the effort.

[NickSS]

The felt wads work well and I use them when I have them but also use lube over the bullets. I don't mind the mess of cleanup. I have a Piatta Colt Army model 1860 and it shoots well but my favorite is a Piatta 1858 Remington 44. I also have a Rogers and Spencer in 44 that is really accurate but it is a larger gun. I have looked at the Star pistols but have not bought one for one major reason. The rear sight is a narrow groove on the hammer and I could not see it when aiming. The Solid frame remington in either 36 or 44 would serve you better that the colt in my opinion. As to Swiss 1 1/2F it will work but will give slightly slower velocity and maybe more fouling. Neither is a big deal for paper punching. I have used FFG Elephant and Goex powders in my cap and balls and they worked fine but as noted a little slower and dirtier. Of course the elephant brand was the dirtiest powder I have used but it is no longer available.

[cajun shooter]

The best grain size for your C&B is 3F but you can fire the other grain sizes with a change in accuracy, speed, and fouling. The Swiss powders grain sizes are different than the other powders. The Swiss 1 1/2 is close to the Goex 2F and the Swiss 2F is close to the Goex3F. All of any BP powder maker's powder is the same with the difference being in the grain size which controls burning. The smaller the grain size the faster the burn and the less fouling you have. With Swiss being the premier powder but costly in USA. If shooting for fun then I would shoot what I had and enjoy it. If you start shooting a BP sport then I would use the 3F.

[Dale53]

It appears that the Ruger Old Army is out of production. I don't know how hard it would be for the OP to find one with adjustable sights. Hubertus, if you could find one, that is, by far, the best Cap and Ball revolver ever made for shooting.

They have decent adjustable sights with a good sight picture, they are accurate and shoot extremely well. Further, you can get a matching revolver in .45 Colt and have a cartridge gun as a "back up".

My good friend is a four time National Pistol Champion at Friendship, IN. He uses the .45 Colt for practice and then just before the Nationals he would THEN shoot the Ruger Old Army to fine tune his performance. That way he got the volume of shooting that level requires without killing himself trying to shoot a lot of shots with the cap and ball revolver.

The Ruger Old Army is as rugged as the Ruger BlackHawk (that is to say, will last for several generations of serious shooting with hardly any maintenance required). Keeping an original Colt or Remington style Cap & Ball Revolver working is sometimes a PAIN.

FWIW
Dale53

[Hubertus]

Thank you for all the nice and helpful replies!
A lot of things to think about, that’s why I like this forum you can get lots of different angles on topics and keep the thinking going, plus you get conversations with nice and friendly people.

I am not decided on the model yet but I think caliber wise .44 might be the better choice for me. Most probably the Old Army cannot be bought or at least not with a lot of searching around. Certainly I like the looks of the Colt but do see the advantage of the Remington 1858 in terms of ease of cleaning and rigidity. Might be even possible to carry the Remington as a backup for hunting wild boar, because I could unload it by removing the cylinder on the way home (that’s the only time I can legally carry, in connection with hunting, but on the way to the hunt and back unloaded). There is no handgun and bow hunting in Germany but rifle. Muzzle loading hunting is rare and you are earning strange looks, there are a few I know doing that. But surely I am planning to take my Rolling Block hunting with a Black Powder load, now the perfect backup to that would be a BP revolver, don’t you think?

Will see how to acquire one – might have to get rid of one of my two pistols to be able to register the C&B – I am only allowed two handguns as a hunter.

BP substitutes can be bought – an option would be pellets because they don’t count in the contingent. Loose substitute powder might be an option too, this counts like smokeless. Why didn’t I think of that?
Thanks for offering the wads, but I am not at this stage yet, don’t even have the revolver, if you don’t mind I might come back to this later.

Thanks again,

Hubertus

[44man]

The Remington is a great gun but stay with round balls in it. There is a big problem if you use boolits. The cylinder is small and the next chamber is too close to the gap and gas pressure will ruin a boolit nose big time.

[Hubertus]

Thanks for the great info.
Now I only need to see where to get my first wheel gun...
I'll let you know.

Hubertus

[JIMinPHX]

The pellets fit well in some guns & not in others. I have seen some C&B revolvers with powder chambers that are not a straight cylinder all the way to the back. They have a straight bore, going about half way back & then have a reduced diameter after that. The pellets don't always fit in the smaller diameter. I have gotten around this by just forcing the pellet into the smaller diameter area & in doing so, shaving a little off the outside diameter of the pellet. I am not sure how safe that really is. If you get a gun that the pellets don't drop into easily, then I would recommend using the loose Pyrodex P. Besides, the loose stuff is a lot cheaper.

[Hubertus]

Thank you, I will have to look for that.
Pyrodex is not so common here, but possibly available - will have to call around.
Most probably for starters I will try to shoot the 1 1/2 fg and see how this does.

How is the cleaning up, comparing Pyrodex and BP in the C&B?
So far I have only experience in my 45-70 single shot, cleaning is quite easy (before trying, I didn't believe it 8-))


I did find an online auction for a Ruger Black Hawk percussion.
Comparing the "Old Army" pictures I found it has a different trigger guard, it's flattened towards the grip. Do you have any info about it?
The condition looks very good, what do you think is it worth?

Hubertus

[Wayne Smith]

The Remington is good, the Rogers and Spencer is better. Clean up of BP is no problem, just disassemble the revolver into hot soapy water and clean. I have a Rogers and Spencer, a couple of Colt clones, and a LeMat. The Rogers and Spencer is by far and away the strongest, most accurate, and nicest to use. For one thing it has a much shorter hammer throw, quicker lock time.

I make wads out of felt window stripping and my BP lube, just soak the window stripping in the lube, let cool, and punch out the wads. I have read about using old felt hats, but am short of those.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I use a standard Moose Milk formula based on soluble oil (I use soluble D), dish washing detergent, and water. After shooting a muzzle loader or Cap and Ball, all metal parts get a generous washing.

I do disassemble the Cap and Ball completely, wash the parts, rinse in hot water, dyr, oil and reassemble. I probably don't need to be that meticulous, but I enjoy it, and I never know if the firearm will sit for a couple of day, years or decades before I get back to it.

Also, I use Marvel Mystry oil on my wood grips, stocks etc...works great, cleans a little, leaves wood feeling great and smelling good.

[Hubertus]

Gentlemen,

As promised here is the update on the C&B project with Swiss 1 ½ fg.
After I was lucky to swap an old pistol against this:
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/1858/IMG00061-20100121-2032.jpg

Unfortunately there was not much time to play.
But finally I made it to the range and tested the Euroarms copy of a 1858 Remington New Model Army.
With a generous donation of a fellow forum member I had some .454” round balls to try; following the advice of MtGun44 I had ordered some felt wads and lubed them with my homemade BP lube.

I fired 3 full cylinders (due to lack of more time) and had no misfires or chain fires. Judging the condition of the gun it might have been possible to shoot some more without actually cleaning it - well at least in terms of function.
The load consisted of 20 grains Swiss 1 ½ fg + 5 mm lubed felt wad + .454 lead ball + CCI cap.
I know I might have been able to use a higher charge but I wanted to start moderate and increase later.
It was a lot of fun, the recoil was not bad and I was really amazed how nicely the revolver handled.
This is what it looked like at the range:

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/1858/th_VID00007-20100318-1818.jpg (http://s823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/1858/?action=view&current=VID00007-20100318-1818.flv)


The distance was 25 meters (27 yards) and here is the target (the orange circle is around 2 inches in diameter)..
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/1858/IMG00126-20100318-1819.jpg

Well, looks like I am not that big a shot but hopefully this will improve over time getting used to the gun. Again this was my first outing with a cap and ball and I was really happy I had not forgotten to put powder in plus no misfires or other problems.

Thank you again for all the good tips and tricks.
Next time I will vary the charge and try some different size round balls.

Hubertus

[shooting on a shoestring]

Good looking gun and kit. Target full of big holes. Yep looks like you did fine. Seems that 11/2 shot ok.

Now I'm itching to shoot my old .36 Remington clone. Hmm, maybe it needs a .44 big brother.

[stubshaft]

I think you will find the most accurate load is not the max loading. You might consider a filler so that you can compress the powder and still leave the ball about 1/16" below the chamber mouth.

Enjoy!

[Southern Son]

Sweet looking revolver and kit. I have got to save up and get a Ruger Old Army.