Home-built paper patch mold

[yondering]

OK, so I didn’t build the mold, but I made the reamer, and cut the cavity larger in an old Lee mold. (Lee molds are good for something!)

I’ve been experimenting in my 35 Whelen with a LFN design that another member here (thanks arcticbreeze!) had made by Mountain Molds. His boolit is a grease groove design, but I’ve been paper patching them with good success. Being cheap and on a budget too, I decided to copy that basic design in a smooth sided boolit.

I started with a 3/8” bolt, chucked in my cordless drill with the head removed. I ground the profile to match arcticbreeze’s boolit as best I could, then ground off one side of the bolt to make a D-reamer. I used a Mapp gas torch to heat it to cherry red, and water quenched it. I didn’t bother to temper it, but would probably do so if I was using a higher carbon steel.

I did find out on my first attempt that a single flute reamer (90 degree cut out like a self tapping bolt) didn’t work well, so the D-reamer was my second attempt. I also found that the D-reamer cut a few thousandths smaller than the diameter of the reamer was when it was round.

18583

I had an old single cavity Lee 309-160 mold that I didn’t use anymore, so I ran the reamer down into that. It cut smoothly with no chatter. I used WD-40 for cutting fluid; my tapping fluid says “not for use on aluminum”. The first attempt gave me a 237gr boolit, so I went back and ran the reamer in a little further. Now I’ve got a 257gr LFN paper patch mold, with a slightly tapered bearing surface. (.352 where the ogive starts, .359” at the base). One of the boolits in the picture is knurled with a coarse file, this one shows where the ogive starts. I haven’t shot any yet but have high hopes.

Any thoughts?

18584

[lwknight]

I think thats awesome. And good.

[Nrut]

Thoughts?,
Looks good! How did you run the D-reamer into the Lee mold, drill press?
Also did you relieve the back side of the D-reamer?

[docone31]

Lookin good!
Now, lets us see how it performs.
I had wondered what they would look like without lube grooves.

[HollowPoint]

That's excellent.

I've been planning on making my own PP mold as well. I think that the thing that's been holding me back is the lack of clear instructions as to how to make the "D" reamer.

I've read several posts on how to do it but, it seems like the guys sharing their instructions aren't as good at writing instructions as they are at making their reamers.
To add to this situation, I suck at interpreting written instructions no matter how well written they are.

In my case they have to be written as if they were specifically for a kindergardener and with lots of pictures.
The really odd thing is that someone can read me (audibly) a set of the crappiest instructions you can write and it seems to make a whole lot more sense.

Must be one of those dyslexia things.

I guess I'll just have to ruin a few bolts and learn the hard way.

HollowPoint

[357maximum]

Thoughts?

stellar, sweet, awesome, good job done well with minimal tooling...I like it.:drinks:


Where's that big hand clapping smilee?????[smilie=2:

[Southern Son]

that just looks great, Yondering. Thanks for posting this. Are you going to shoot a couple into a ballistic medium. I think that they would expand spectacularly.

I really need to get a lathe (First I need a shed to put the lathe in!).

[yondering]

Thanks guys! I'm hoping to do some shooting this weekend, if it's not raining too hard, so I'll report back.


Thoughts?,
Looks good! How did you run the D-reamer into the Lee mold, drill press?
Also did you relieve the back side of the D-reamer?

Yes, I used a drill press (cheapo Harbor Freight) and a good vice that is not bolted to the table, so it can self-align. I keep one hand on the vice while using this method, to keep it from turning, it seems to work well.

I did not relieve the back side of the reamer. Before I ground off one side, the reamer was perfectly round, and could have been fired from my rifle if I paper patched it (and cut off the shank of course). At that point, I just ground off one side (I used dial calipers to determine when I had ground off exactly half). Then I heat treated it, carefully removed the scale without touching the cutting edge, and made the cut.

When I ground off half the reamer, I made sure to grind exactly half (within a few thousandths), but it did end up cutting slightly smaller hole. I think this is because my finishing touch on the flat part was to clean up the grinding marks with sandpaper on a piece of glass, this may have taken off a little too much material. If/when I do this again, I'll probably remove ~.005" less than half of the diameter, and work from there until it cuts well but not too small. Obviously if you grind off more than half of the reamer, the width of it gets smaller, so it cuts a smaller hole.

It may be obvious, but is worth noting, that these reamers will cut in both directions. My drill press only spins in one direction though.

Hopefully that helps. HollowPoint, if I get a chance, I'll take some pictures of the reamer making process.

[303Guy]

Where's that big hand clapping smilee????? This will do! :mrgreen:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/webowdown2u.gif

(I cannot remember which member gave me that one, but it's great!):drinks:

So, what thought's? I think it's brilliant! Thanks for the post yondering.

HollowPoint
I was given some neat 'D' reamer making pictures. I shall look for them and post them here!

[Tazman1602]

Thoughts? My thoughts are you guys AMAZE me every single day I'm here. That is some AWESOME work.

Geez I hope I don't get caught up in the paper patch thingy..................

[Willbird]

Did you use a plain old grade 2 bolt ?? And did it seem harder after heat treating it ?? I would be surprised if a grade 2 bolt had enough carbon in it to be heat treated.

I was just thinking about using a D reamer to make a PP bullet mold, but I would make it from O1 drill rod.

Bill

[longbow]

It is actually easier to make a D bit than to describe how to make it... at least step by step.

Basically you turn the shape you want in finished boolit ~ maybe a thou or two under ~ then cut the boolit in half lengthwise (look at yondering's photo). It has to be no more than exactly 1/2 diameter and perferably 0.001" or so under. That is filed/milled then the whole flat surface polished to 0.001" under 1/2 diameter and the "0" rake cutting edges should be sharp enough to shave finger nail.

If it is over 1/2 diameter it will not cut.

You do not need relief angles cut on the underside, just leave it as turned.

Then it gets heat treated.

After heat treating use fine emery cloth, fine stone or diamond hone to polish the surface and bring those cutting edges back up to fingernail shaving sharpness. They should cut without any skidding on your fingernail.

I have used gr. 8 bolts, old Mazda head bolts, medium carbon steel and once a relatively low carbon steel by mistake so when finished and I realized it wouldn't harden properly I case hardened it and it worked fine.

So far I have gotten multiple uses out of them on steel, brass and bronze. Best is to drill close to desired finished size then use the D bit for final reaming but I have "drilled" the entire cavity using one successfully. They can be resharpened but start cutting undersize so cavities have to be lapped to size or make a new D bit.

There used to be a website that had details on making D bits but it has disappeared and I could not find good detailed instructions with photos.

Life is much easier if you have a lathe to make the D bit and also to machine the cavity but as yondering has demonstrated, you can get by with hand tools and a drill press. In fact you could get by with all hand tools if you had to.

One comment about the method. Since I do not have a surface grinder and have not made a jig for a bench grinder, I usually turn the D bit, file to the halfway point then polish by hand, then heat treat.

Because they are not symmetrical you have to be careful when quenching or the D bit can warp. This will cause them to cut off size. From experience I have had 0.003" oversize which is disappointing. I would rather have it cut undersize then lap to size.

The preferred method of cutting to the half way point is with a grinder after heat treating so warpage is not an issue. Got to keep it cool while grinding though!

You really need a jig or surface grinder to do this though, freehand isn't likely to be successful.

Not sure if that helps or not! If anyone has questions I will help if I can.

By the way yondering, nice job!

Longbow

[yondering]

Did you use a plain old grade 2 bolt ?? And did it seem harder after heat treating it ?? I would be surprised if a grade 2 bolt had enough carbon in it to be heat treated.


You're probably right about the grade 2 bolt. I used a grade 8 bolt.

[barrabruce]

Yondering youv'e done extremely well.

DON"T try this at home....
I made a reamer today out of a broken of drill shank.
I made mine with 4 flutes with a thin cut off grinder disk and relieved the back edges.

Now for the tears bit.
I thougth it was worth a try but...using a handrill it don't work to well.
Me bullet comes out at 314" instead of the ground 301" Bugga
I can put it though a 309 sizer die with force.
Can I just lube this with alox or something and shoot the oversized core like a normal lead slug??? Light loads maybe???

Anyway don't atempt it with hand tools...well it didn't work of me .
Unless you are good of eye and true of hand.
Ohh I picked up a burr near the nose..ohh welll...good lesson in humility if nothing.

If I had a drill press maybe it could have turned out better for me..

I think I'll leave the hand tools for the "gifted" people to play with.

When I win the lottery...I'l get me a lathe. n grinder..n ....a shirt laod of tools that do weird things one just gotta have that do something or other...n..stock....n....
Hope it helps
Barra

Any-one need of a couple of moulds to play with??? :(

[zuke]

This any help to anyone?
http://personal.geeksnet.com/soderstrom/ReamerMaking/HowImakechamberreamers.htm

[Willbird]

My father showed me how to make them, and he taught me to relieve them behind the cutting edge, of course we were using them in die and mold steels.

I for one do not understand how you can ever feed it into the work to get it to cut if it does not have any relief, if it just compress's the material ahead of it that might work for aluminum, but not work for say 4140 (using a D reamer as a chambering reamer) or other steels, say if you were making a bullet swaging die, or a reloading die.

Bill

[zuke]

I for one do not understand how you can ever feed it into the work to get it to cut if it does not have any relief

Ever use a LEE chamfer tool?

[robroy]

I'v made a couple of D reamers, although they were for drilling stocks to inlet Mauser bottom metal and installing Uncle Mikes sling swivles. I was taught to use drill rod cut to size on the lathe, harden, temper, and grind. The grinding was done in a simple tool called a "grinding chair". The chair was a block of cold rolled that had been drilled to accept the work piece which was held in place by a set screw. The assembly was set on the tool rest of the bench grinder and a thumb (temper saver) pushed on the back of the soon to be reamer. When the work gets too hot for the thumb quench it in a can of water. It takes a while to grind this way and cold water will start to get warm. Keep a micrometer handy and check when you start getting close to half way.

By the way you done real good Yondering

[longbow]

D bits or reamers most certainly do cut steel with no relief angle. Rememer that they are to be cut to just under 1/2 diameter of the hole they are reaming so there is a small clearance.

They do not remove large amounts of material like a drill bit. More like a scraper.

A friend of mine told me his grandfather was a gunsmith and worked at BSA many years ago. He made D bits for chamber reamers.

Longbow

[yondering]

The grinding was done in a simple tool called a "grinding chair". The chair was a block of cold rolled that had been drilled to accept the work piece which was held in place by a set screw. The assembly was set on the tool rest of the bench grinder and a thumb (temper saver) pushed on the back of the soon to be reamer.

I use a similar "grinding chair" setup for grinding knife blades (only made a few but it works well) although of course the blades are heat treated after grinding. I didn't think of doing that for grinding the reamer, but will keep that in mind for next time.

I just used the chuck of my cordless drill to hold the reamer for grinding the flat; if you have a good eye for grinding that works OK and keeps you from burning your fingers.

I heat treated the reamer after grinding. Hardening the reamer before grinding would be more precise, but of course take a lot longer to grind. I didn't have any warpage issues. I did finish sand the surface of the reamer after quenching, to remove the scale.

[HammerMTB]

That thing is sweet!
I think we oughta try one in .45 caliber!
I do believe I have a single cavity mold I would contribute to the cause.... it was ~340 gr before.... :mrgreen:

[yondering]

Let's do it! A 1/2" grade 8 bolt should work great! Just figure out the nose profile you want, and we'll go from there.

[Willbird]

I for one do not understand how you can ever feed it into the work to get it to cut if it does not have any relief

Ever use a LEE chamfer tool?

I have used, made, and sharpened cutting tools since the 1970's.

I'm pretty sure I have not used a Lee chamfer tool, but it is used on brass right ?? Give it a whirl on some D2 steel and let me know how it cuts ;-)

I stand firm in my assertion that D reamers should be stoned behind the cutting edge to give some clearance or they will not cut in materials tougher than aluminum. Also something that worked very nice on D reamers is white lead, which is probably impossible to buy now.


Bill

[longbow]

As mentioned before, I have cut several steel and bronze moulds with D reamers as turned with no relief.

Longbow

[zuke]

I'm pretty sure I have not used a Lee chamfer tool, but it is used on brass right ??
Yep!, and were talking about LEE mold's.
I don't know where the D2 and other STEEL's came into the equasion.
Remember LEE ALUMINUM mold block's.

[Willbird]

Remember we are talking about D reamers. And cutting tools in general. Stuff that works on Brass and aluminum will not work on more robust materials. If we are going to learn to make tools, we might as well learn how to make them right, not half asterisked.

Also if I had a Lee chamfer tool in my hand I could tell you if it has any relief, looking at pictures it quite possible COULD have some. I have sharped a lot of countersinks that your average home user would swear had no relief, but I had to use a cam relieving fixture to sharpen then for some odd reason.

Cutting tools in general have relief behind the cutting edge, form tools in some cases may still have a "hair edge" of OD grind left on them after relieving.

Bill

[yondering]

Willbird, why don't you just try it for yourself instead of arguing how it can't work?

The only reason the reamer I made wouldn't work in steel is if the reamer material wasn't hard enough to hold an edge. My first attempt, with a 90 degree cutout and no relief, didn't cut well, and just pushed material around in the hole, but the D reamer did work, and left less burr around the hole edge than a sharp drill bit would. I'm no expert in this, but I know enough to tell when a tool cuts well.

A D-reamer isn't supposed to be better than a normal fluted reamer; it's something the average guy can make in his basement with some very basic tools. Maybe that doesn't apply to you, if you're a tool and die maker, but we don't all have lathes and mills and other specialized tooling.

Sounds to me like you're more interested in arguing than in learning something.

[zuke]

I've alway's believed your thread, your rule's.

:bigsmyl2:

[leftiye]

Nice design. I like that boolit. Tool obviously cut. Not saying anything about, or to add to - the argument, but they've cut better for me with a bit of relief. On the two flute, I cut 90 degree grooves opposite each other (offset a little to not part at the web, or use a ball endmill to cut your flutes, thus leaving a web), then I grind the remaining rounded segments flat to provide edge relief on the cutting edges, and sharpen (just barely touch the original edge when sharpening, not at all when grinding the flats) with a diamond lap. Cuts (drills) nice boolit shaped holes (without grooves).

[longbow]

yondering has it right (obviously, he made a mould and a nice one!).

Effectively the D bit does have some relief built in as it is slightly less than 1/2 diameter (a thou ot two) but no, I do not grind any relief and neither did yondering.

The D bit does not take off large amounts of metal off but they work and leave a nice finish if the tool is well finished.

If anyone has doubts I will chuck up a bit of scrap steel and take photos of the metal being removed.

Again, nice job yondering!

Longbow

[Nrut]

yondering,
No matter how you slice it thanks posting your project!
That's something that I can do myself.:D
Maybe one of these days after more people try this we could get a group buy going for blank mold blocks that are already set up for handles..

It be interesting to see if there is a difference in accuracy between the grooved boolits that articbreeze sent you and your smooth sided boolits...

[yondering]

Maybe one of these days after more people try this we could get a group buy going for blank mold blocks that are already set up for handles..



Thanks for the compliments, all.

I just ordered another Lee 2-cavity 309-150-RF mold to ream out for my Whelen. I like starting with holes already in the blocks; that way I don't have to locate and drill the blocks on center myself.
I'll probably use these blocks for one 200gr cavity and one 220-ish. (Getting both cavities to match weight exactly would be pretty difficult, so if I make them different on purpose, it looks like I knew what I was doing. :razz: )

[abob]

For those wanting a little more expansion at low velocity for hunting, would a center notch at the tip end of D reamer give you a hollow point? Might be a little tricky to keep the notch perfectly centered so both sides of tip cut evenly, but in aluminum or brass it should still cut evenly. Just another thought.

I usually drill hollow point my cast bullets for the 45-70 come deer season, but would be nice to not have to if cast that way already.

Nice work on that mold --- Bob.

[longbow]

abob:

Another option to the split moulds if you are looking at making a smooth boolit is a push out mould.

Hollow points are easy! Your ejector can be pointed so forms a hollow point with no hassles. In fact you can make several ejectors: pointed, round nose, flat nose, hollow point for use in one mould.

See post #10 here for the basic design of a push out mould:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72147

I make them out of 1 1/2" round bar. Some have the full sliding nose form and some are boolit shaped cavities with just an ejector pin.

Longbow

[phatman]

If that bullet only shoots half as good as it looks it will be fabulous.

One of the best looking hunting bullets for medium bore that I have ever seen.

Damn Your Good

John