44 mag Keith load

[ebg3]

I just cast a bunch of 255 Keith bullets and sized and lubed them with a batch of lube I just made. I used 16oz Beeswax and 14 oz Moly Lithium greese and ran it through a Lyman lube/sizer. I'm using 22grs 2400 with a Win. LP primer. The Bullets weigh 257grs lubed and I'm shooting them out of a 7.5" SBH. Accuracy seems to be good but leading is bad. I have not had a chance to chrono yet...anyone using a similar setup and what is your velocity. I'm thinking 1450fps or so. Thanks in advance,
Eddie

[HamGunner]

I don't know about the lube, but in my opinion everything else sounds good except for the charge weight of the 2400. Primer is okay, and your revolver is certainly strong enough for that load, but I think your leading and accuracy will be improved by dropping the charge down a bit. I find 20.5 to 21.0 grains of 2400 to be much better and in my 6 1/2 Ruger Flattop I get about 1,300 -1,350fps. With your load and another inch of barrel, you are probably fairly close on your guess.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks to "Shuz" over in Spakane I became the owner of a brand new can of old Hercules 2400. I've test loads of 20, 20.5, 21, 21.5 and 22 gr of both that old Hercules 2400 and the same loads of new Alliant 2400 under a RCBS 44-250-K bullet ready to velocity/pressure using my Oehler M43 PBL hooked to an 8.4" TC Contender barrel. I'm just waiting for a break in the weather and then I'll post a detailed report comparing the two 2400s.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Thanks to "Shuz" over in Spakane I became the owner of a brand new can of old Hercules 2400. I've test loads of 20, 20.5, 21, 21.5 and 22 gr of both that old Hercules 2400 and the same loads of new Alliant 2400 under a RCBS 44-250-K bullet ready to velocity/pressure using my Oehler M43 PBL hooked to an 8.4" TC Contender barrel. I'm just waiting for a break in the weather and then I'll post a detailed report comparing the two 2400s.

Larry Gibson

Please do, Larry, I've been wondering ever since Alliant took over how those old Keith loads compare with the newer Alliant.

Plus, I still have almost a pound of Hercules 2400 left (from several purchased new in 1991) with which I have worked up several good loads, wanting to do a minimum of rework when fresh 2400 becomes available locally again.

Gear

[shotman]

thats why you are gettting leading drop down to the 18 -20 gr range.

[fivegunner]

I to would be intersted in what you found out about the old vs new 2400[smilie=s:

[oldhickory]

With the new Alliant 2400 I'm using 20gr. with the RCBS 430250K in a 4" S&W 629-3 and accuracy is a lot better than I can hold the gun, recoil is very managable, (even rapid fire D-A shooting up close), and leading...What leading? There is hardly any to speak of! I'm casting WWs with just a little linotype in the mix, probably about 10-12bh. (I can mark them with my thumbnail). Cases are Star Line, w/CCI std. LPPs.

Right around 1100fps out of my 4" Smith. Plenty fast enough for me. Btw, my boolits pop out of the mold at 267-268gr.

I still have 3-4 cans of the old Hercules 2400 in square cans and it's supposed to be slower then the new stuff. When I get around to it, I'll load 22gr. of the old Herc with that boolit.

[vanilla_gorilla]

I normally load 21 grains 2400 with a RCBD 44-250-K which is 265 grains ready to load. That gives about 1310 fps from my 6 inch 29. Going to 22 grains gives right at 1400 fps from both my 6 inch 29 and a friend's 5 inch 629.

[RSOJim]

19 grains will send a 250 grain lead boolit clean thru any hog I have ever shot. How much more do you need ? Much easier on the gun and shooter. Jim

[ebg3]

Thanks for all the responses. Dad introduced me to reloading and shooting at an early age and he always loaded 20.7-21 grs 2400 behind a Keith bullet and used CCI mag pistol primers. Seems he told me he tried 22grs 2400 and did not have the accuracy that he got with 21grs. I must say that the 2400 he used was Hercules in 8lb cardboard containers. I'm using the same mold(Lyman) and lead to cast but I have a new 8lb can of 2400 and I'm using Win. large pistol primers. I guess I'll try 21grs and compare to 22grs and I'll chrono the loads out of my SBH. Leading is not bad with the 22gr load, so far as I can tell. I'll post results.
Thanks,
Eddie

[ebg3]

Got out too late this afternoon to chrono but I did shoot about 75 of the 22gr Keith loads for accuracy. I put my 2X Leupold scope on the gun to see how the loads shoot. It was so cold I found it hard to squeeze the trigger. I did get three 5 shot groups that measure 1.25" or less at 25 yards. In fact, the last group I shot today went 1.25" so I don't think leading is a problem with this load. I'll clean the barrel tomorrow and see what the leading looks like. I'll try to chrono 21 and 22 grs of 2400 this weekend to see what my velocities are. I did shoot two really good groups with 22grs 2400 under a gas-checked Keith bullet using Win. LP primers. I was really suprised at the amount of muzzle flash and cylinder flash I was getting with the gas checked rounds...a lot different than the plain based bullet.
EG

[leadman]

I use 18.5 grs, of new 2400 under the Lyman version of the Keith boolit. Around an inch at 25 yards, no leading, decreased recoil.

[Three44s]

I load the RCBS 250K.

With 2400 (late stuff) I use 18 gr. and magnum primers ......great load

.......... @ 19.0 gr. I switch to standard primers ....... great load

20.0 grs is my "bear lite" load ...... and it gives me 1262 fps out of a Smith 4"

I used to load 21.0 gr. and it ran 1300 fps out of the same 4" gun

After Brian Pearces work published in Handloader magazine I now top out at 20.5 to 20.6 gr. in 2400 and ALL loads above 18.0 gr. are lit with standard primers.

Three 44s

[ebg3]

I just cleaned my barrel from my last time out and there was a lot of lead in the barrel after 75rds. So much so that I don't know how it was shooting so accurately. Bullets were sized to .430 and were water dropped when cast. I opened my size die and they now size almost to .431 so I'm interested to see if this helps. I dropped the load to 21grs 2400 and will compare it to 22grs with the larger sized bullets. When I cast next, I'm going to just towel cool the bullets to see how they do. Any other advice on how to reduce leading? I think my lube is OK, it is pretty much a 50/50 lube. I think the leading is coming from bullets being a bit fast/undersized. Note: the leading is in the first 2.5" of the barrel...I've got a few thousand rounds through this gun and the rifling looks good. Thanks,
Eddie

[NHlever]

To reduce that leading, your boolits need to fit the throats of your chambers in the cylinder. I had a .431 sizing die, and just opened it to .432 today since I'm getting some leading in a new to me SBH. The bullets shouldn't fall through the throats by themselves, they should need just a little push with your finger.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive owned probably 2 dozen ruger 44s over the years and never had one that didnt do just fine with 430 bullets. My guess is two things. First your pushing the edge of the envelope for non gas checked bullets. Especially with 2400. A switch to a slightly slower burning powder like aa9 or better yet 110/296 would probably help. Another thing i would at least experiment with is your lube. Lars will give a free sample out so get a sample of his corduba and his mix of corduba and alox and see if it improves. Im bettting it will. If you dont want to change these things go with your gas checked bullets. Or at least shoot a cylinder full of them every 3 clyinder to clean the lead out.

[ebg3]

Cylinder mouths are close to .432, .430 bullets fall through. My sizing die now is about .431. I may be pushing the bullets to the upper limit, I am going to try 21grs 2400 to see if leading decreases. I do have a Keith GC mould and will try those too. I am still surprised at the accuracy even after the leading built up. This is what makes reloading and casting fun and interesting!

[Larry Gibson]

ebg3

Two things; the alloy may not be strong enough for 22 gr of 2400. Your home made lube with beeswax/lithium grease may not be up to the task. I just completed a test of both old and new 2400s loading up to 22 gr of each powder. The test gun was a 8.4" barreled TC Contender. The most accurate loads on target was 20.5 and 21 gr of each powder. At 22 gr accuracy was going even though the internal ballistics were essentially as good as with the lower powder charges. That told me the 22 gr load was too much for the PB'd RCBS 44-250-K cast of WW + 2% tin. As to the lube; I was using Javelina and did not clean the barrel during the 100 round test of that bullet - there was no leading what so ever after the 100 rounds.

You don't say what alloy you are using; if WWs then try WQing them for the 22 gr load. Also try Javelina, Lars BAC or some other known alox/beeswax lube to see if your home brew is up to snuff.

Larry Gibson

[MT Gianni]

FYI, Larrys 2400 report is now in Classics and Stickys.

[ebg3]

Thanks Larry,
My alloy is medical supply lead that held individual small containers of stuff like xenon. The alloy is fairly hard and seems to be similar to wheel weights. Bullets cast from a Lyman 429421 mould weigh 256-257grs after they have been sized and lubed. These that I just cast I dropped in water from the mould, I can't mark them with my fingernail. I was wondering if my problem would actually go away if I didn't water drop them. I'm going out this afternoon to try a few more things. It could be my lube isn't up to the task but I figured it would be very close to the NRA lube and I read good things about it from others. Would adding more beeswax or a little candlewax maybe help the performance? Thanks for all the input,
Eddie

[ebg3]

Just back from the range and this is what I found out. 21grs 2400 with a WLP primer and a 257gr Keith bullet is doing 1415fps out of my SS 7.5" SBH. After 40 rds, accuracy was still good but barrel was leading up. Brushed most out with a bronze brush and it seemed to be a little easier to clean than the 22gr load. Bullets are still from the batch I cast and water-dropped.
Switched over to my .357 flattop...I'm shooting 14.3grs 2400, wsp primer with a 173gr Keith bullet that I cast and towel cooled then sized to .3585" and used my "lithi-bee" lube. This load averaged 1325fps from my 4 5/8" barrel and is very accurate. After 40 rds, there is very little leading and it brushed right out with a bronze brush. The little bit of leading in this barrel was more towards the muzzle in the .357 as opposed to the first 3" of the .44 barrel. In the morning, I'm going to cast some new .44 Keith bullets and just towel cool them to compare these loads. I'm curious to see if the leading is more or less with the slow-cooled bullets. I'll also take the time to cast a bunch of gas check Keith bullets. If I have to, I'll just load the GC bullet, they are very accurate.
If the slow-cooled .44 bullets still are leading badly, I'll need to try to change my lube. I still wonder if adding a little parafin wax will make the lube better.
EG

[Thumbcocker]

Do you have a tight spot in the .44 ?

[targetshootr]

I'd start with a low charge of say 17 or 18 gr and work up from there and see if it starts to lead at a certain speed. A 250k will kill just as dead going 1100 fps as it will going 1400 fps. And maybe try a harder lube. And yeah, try some parafin wax in it. It's probably better if lube is leftover on the boolit than not having enough to make it all the way down the barrel.

[TCLouis]

Your lube seems awfully close to what Glen F. uses, though he states 1:1 beeswax and Sta-Lube moly grease (no lithium mentioned).
I'm betting the leading issue will go away with some careful examination and polishing or a lot of shooting.

Well with the update below, the gun has been fired extensively so that is not the issue.

[vanilla_gorilla]

I've been driving my 173 Keith boolits up to 1350 or so with 2400 and no leading in my S&W Model 27. WWs water quenched and lubed with paraffin/axle grease.

My experience with Keith boolits above 1300 fps with this alloy has been good. No leading to speak of, even at 1400 fps. Perhaps your boolits are a hair too small? If that's the case, it could explain the leading in the first part of your barrel.

[ebg3]

Do you have a tight spot in the .44 ?
You know, I'm not sure. I've had this gun for 18 years and have a few thousand rounds through it but I know that doe not mean much(most were Keith loads). When I got the gun new, it was spitting lead out the right side and after shooting it a bunch, I sent it back to Ruger and I think they rebarreled it, the forcing cone looked much better and the gap was less when it came back. I'll slug the barrel to see if I feel any restrictions. The gun is very accurate with GC bullets and not bad with the PB loads I've been shooting but the GC loads are more accurate than the PB loads. Thanks,
Eddie

[ebg3]

Thanks for all the good info! Going to try to increase bullet size a bit and compare air cooling vs. water quenching with my alloy. Also I'm curious to see if there is a tight spot in my barrel. I have to think the lube is OK...that'll be the last change to work on. Results to follow.:drinks:

[StrawHat]

If it were mine, I'd fiddle with the lube first. If nothing there, I'd next look at the alloy. EK was primarily a binary alloy user, Lead/Tin. Not sure what you medical lead is, but maybe a little tin added to it would help.

When I shot the 44 Magnum, I did not care for the 22 grain load and backed off to 21. In my revovler, S&W, it made a difference.


On a totally different note.

Didn't the HP White Labs run Elmer's 22 grain load throught the test mill and find it was beyond recommended safe pressures? I seem to recall reading this quite a few years ago.

[Edubya]

I've been havig a similar situation with my SAECO#428 240 gr boolits. They casts at .431-2 245 to 250 gr (depending on alloy) and I've pan lubed them with my attempt of the Felix lube, and through the Star Lubrisizer to .430 size with Carnuba Red. Any time that I go with a heavier load than 19 gr of 2400 the 629 starts leading. I've attempted this with various alloys and a range of BHN from 11-22 air cooled and water dropped.
I do believe that my next attempt will be oven heat treat to get a 25 BHN or higher. I don't like the idea of going that hard but several of the more experienced shooters here on this board are doing that.
EW

[ebg3]

I think I found a reason for my leading. I slugged my barrel today and the groove diameter read .431 using a caliper. I know calipers are not the best tool to use but after several measurments, I feel like it is just shy of .431". I do have some machining marks just in front of the forcing cone on each land in the same spot. So, I got my Clover compound out and prepped 21 unsized Keith bullets and loaded Seven at a time with 3.3grs E3 powder and a magnum pistol primer. Don't ask why seven at a time, I don't know. Shot 7 and cleaned gun...did this three times for a total of 21rds. I can tell the barrel is much shinier and slicker feeling. Still can see the machine marks but I'm going to stop here and maybe find some finer grit compound. I think I used 280 grit. I also took my sizing die out and with a rod and 600grit paper opened it up to a little better than .431 but not quite .432. It started life as a .430 die. This afternoon, I'll resize some boolits to the new size and give'm a try. With my cylinder mouths being .432 I really need to size to .432 and try that. Results to follow.
Eddie

[HamGunner]

oven heat treat to get a 25 BHN or higher. I don't like the idea of going that hard but several of the more experienced shooters here on this board are doing that.
EW

I don't think they are experienced if they recommend this for a handgun. I would first size the bullet to no less than throat diameter and go no harder than maybe 12-14 BHN. No doubt the bullet is too small.

[Edubya]

I hear what you are saying, Rick. I have always been of the same belief but I've read too much of "44Man" and "6Shooter"s' successes to believe that they are anything other than experienced!
I'm looking at my forcing cone right now. Since Eddie has mentioned it I started thinking that I may need to do the same. It is a little rough on an otherwise perfect pistol. My cylinders are very consistent at .4295 and the barrel measures .4288.
I can shoot it pretty good with soft nose bullets @1250-plus fps with no leading.
EW

[HamGunner]

EW,
Well, I know that your cyliner/bore match up looks good. And I understand where the guys you are talking about are coming from (and I have read hundreds of their posts for a long time and do see them as experienced by far). Their way of thinking works with a proper set up with a revolver that has had cylinders honed to work properly with the bore diameter and that a very hard bullet sized and lubed appropriately will not lead and should be a good shooter. But, the normal revolver shooter will only cause himself more leading if their bullet gets beyond the obturation hardness level of the load's chamber pressure because they do usually need obturation in order to make up for their revolver's less than proper cylinder/bore match up. From reading lot of posts, I see where many think that only the softer bullets are the cause of leading and simply go to harder and harder bullets trying to correct the problems caused by cylinder and bore mismatches. But surely you agree that unless things match up correctly, the softer bullets should actually work much better than a hard bullet that is too hard to obturate enough. That is my thinking. A too hard of a bullet can certainly lead as can a too soft of bullet if the sizing is not correct. Or any hardness of bullet in many cases.

Myself, unless I were shooting at grizzlies or elephants, I see no reason for such hard bullets as even my 12-15 BHN bullets have always completely penetrated deer, which is what most hunters are basing their loads on. I have lots of linotype, in fact much more than wheel weight metal, but I do not shoot much harder metal than necessary although I could. I also do understand that a heat treated bullet having proper alloy can be made harder than linotype or monotype metals, which have very high antimony content, without being brittle. So I do understand the reasons for heat treatment.

Well, for a final thought, I just have read so many posts where others have gotten the impression from reading about others using very hard alloy, that if they are getting leading, then just shoot harder bullets. I feel that many are missing the point or not understanding the reasons for leading.

[Leadforbrains]

I have just found a good Keith load for my Smith 29 using 20 grains of alliant 2400. My boolits are size to .431 and I am using BAC for lube. Accuracy is great out of my 4 inch barrel, and I have no leading.

[Bucks Owin]

If Elmer had had W296/H110 to use in developing his "classic" 22 gr H2400 load, folks wouldn't be so stuck on 2400 IMO. It's inferior if velocity is what you're after...JMO, Dennis (Who is positive that ballistics have progressed since Elmer's days!)

[Edubya]

Opinions are allowed, just don't put them before facts.
Another opinion, based on factual data is from: TAFFIN TESTS: THE .44 MAGNUM
http://sixguns.com/tests/tt44mag.htm
EW

[AlaskaMike]

If Elmer had had W296/H110 to use in developing his "classic" 22 gr H2400 load, folks wouldn't be so stuck on 2400 IMO. It's inferior if velocity is what you're after...JMO, Dennis (Who is positive that ballistics have progressed since Elmer's days!)

I agree with you--I run into quite a bit of "if it was good enough for Elmer, it's good enough for me." However, Elmer did have access to H110--I believe it came out in the 1960's, and he stuck with 2400.

As much as I like my 296, I do have to say it's hard to beat 2400.

Mike

[Shuz]

I agree with you--I run into quite a bit of "if it was good enough for Elmer, it's good enough for me." However, Elmer did have access to H110--I believe it came out in the 1960's, and he stuck with 2400.

As much as I like my 296, I do have to say it's hard to beat 2400.

Mike

It's also hard to beat WC820. Trouble is it's getting harder to find these days.

[ebg3]

Just back from the range where I tried a few changes to my Keith loads. First, I shot 20 rds with 22grs 2400 and air-cooled cast bullets. Accuracy was good but there was a good amount of leading after 20rds. I used the Lewis lead remover to get the lead out and tried the next load. Next was 21grs 2400 with the water-quenched bullets that I cast before. Accuracy was still good and after 20rds there was still a good amount of lead in the barrel. The Lewis lead remover did the trick once again and I got ready for the next load. Next, I tried 22grs 2400 with the water-quenched bullets. They shot very well and leaded the barrel just as much or a little more than the 21gr load. I got 5 shot groups with all loads that were just a tad over 1" at 25 yards. I still have the 2X scope on the gun. All bullets were sized with my sizer that I opened up to around .431".
The first load with the "softer" bullets and 22grs 2400 seemed to lead the barrel just a little less than all the other loads; certainly no worse. This shows me that I don't need to water-drop my bullets(good, less trouble). I also think I need to size my bullets just a bit larger, .432, in this gun and I hope that will cure my leading. It could be that my lube is not up to the task but I just don't think that's it. "Lithi-bee" is thought highly of on this sight and I did add a little carnuba and candlewax to my mix after my last testing. Lube is still tacky.
Next time out, I will try 21grs of 2400 with the softer air-cooled bullets to see if the leading is reduced. I'll also hone out my size die a little more to reach .432". My bore measures .431" and my chamber mouths measure .432".
Results to follow.
Eddie

[longuner]

were is the leading starting? up close to cylinder or at end of barrel!

[ebg3]

Leading is in the first 2-3" from the forcing cone and the more I shoot, the closer it gets to the muzzle. Seems like I'm getting cutting or blow by initially that is causing the leading.

[Rico1950]

You need to size at least to .432" if that's what your cylinder throats measure. Your getting "blowby" as soon as the round is fired. You said your sizing "around" .431" and your cylinder throats measure .432".

[geargnasher]

You need to size at least to .432" if that's what your cylinder throats measure. Your getting "blowby" as soon as the round is fired. You said your sizing "around" .431" and your cylinder throats measure .432".

Bingo.

My two cents, I've been messing with a model 29-3 10" silhouette gun with an Ultradot and I can tell you several things: ACWW alloy quits at about 20 grains of 2400 and skids the first inch or so of the rifling, gas cuts, and leads. 19 grains works great and you sure can tell the difference with the primers not being as flat and the old wristbone chronograph registers "plenty fast enough". One other thing, and this is straight from 44Man here, you really can't tell much about how your gun is shooting at 25 yards. You might be keyholing at 40 and never know it. If you're shooting a single, .60 caliber hole at 25 yards with 10 shots, maybe you've got it nailed, but even 1" groups with 2X optics in a good revolver at 25 yards isn't telling you much. I've gotten groups similar to yours but at 50 yards they wouldn't hit typing paper. I've shot lots of 1" groups at 25 that turn into 6" at 100 yards, not good enough to hunt with imo. I went out this afternoon and tried some different boolits, shot them at 25 to get the drop on paper, then switched to 100, had to back off to 50 to see the "patterns" falling apart. Checked and they were leading like crazy, so I went and shot another group at 25 to see how much difference the leading made, back into an inch. Go figure.

Gear

[ebg3]

I agree on the accuracy at 25, 50 and 100 yards. I've been changing my loads to narrow down this leading issue and have not loaded up enough to do any accuracy testing at anything other than 25 yards. I know I'm close to getting tis worked out and I feel like the accuracy will be there. The 2X scope really lets you see how easy it is to not quite squeeze the trigger and pull your shot! I think it will really help recoil management.
Next step is to enlarge size die to .432 and give that a try. Results soon to come.
Eddie

P.S. BTW, does anyone make a .432" Lyman style size die?

[ebg3]

I took the size die out, de-lubed it and honed it out very close to .432. The pproblem I can see now is my Lyman mould really does not cast much larger than .432". Some that I sized went in with very little effort. Now to load some up and see if this does it. Later.
EG

[longuner]

sounds like a constriction at the barrel threads. need to lap it out. and no oversized bullet will fix it.

[Rico1950]

One thing at a time!

[ebg3]

sounds like a constriction at the barrel threads. need to lap it out. and no oversized bullet will fix it.
Yeah, I've thought about a possible constriction and even fired 21 lapping rounds. When I slugged the barrel, I could not detect a constriction and the slug measured .431". I no longer suspect a constriction but I will revisit that if my new sizing does not work.
Thanks
Eddie

[Edubya]

Hey Eddie, I've been working on similar situation and I've softened up my lube and size at cylinder throat size. I figure that the boolit is still in the chamber when it hits the forcing cone and at that time it will do any obturating that is necessary (using BHN14-15 boolits).
My cylinders are all .429 and the groove measures out .0012 under that, so I don't suspect a larger boolit would do anything to help.
I started sizing them to try getting a little more accuracy. I guess that making them as consistent as possible helps as it seems to improve my results. I read, on here, about not sizing the whole case and crimping them separately. I gave that a try too. It didn't seem to help mine as much as the sizing to cylinder throat did.
I just got back from the range and with 48 rounds through the S&W629, I spent less than 15 minutes cleaning to a new looking gun. That's about the same as with my lil' .38 that went through 50 wad cutters at half the speed of my .44.
EW

[ebg3]

EW,
I sized as close to .432" as I can get, my bore is .431", and I'll try to get out and shoot soon. I'm close but I want to get it perfect. I don't know why my bore measures so big, gun is a SS SBH with a 7.5" barrel. My lube is basically 50/50 and is tacky to the touch. I thought I might need to harden it up a little.
EG

[GabbyM]

EW,
I don't know why my bore measures so big,
EG

Did you slug it before you fired those 21 lapping rounds?

[ebg3]

I slugged before and after lapping and could tell no difference in size. The lapping rounds did shine the barrel up a little.
EG

[MtGun44]

If your throats are .432, you want to be at .432 to .433 on the boolits.

I found 20 gr to be slightly more accurate than 21 gr 2400 in my Mtn Guns. No
leading with either in my guns, but they have .430 throats and I size .430 for them
with straight AC wheelwts and either NRA formula 50/50 or LBT soft blue. I'd try
a different lube, too, if I were having leading like you are. Tacky and soft is better
than hard.

Bill

[ebg3]

Still have not made it out to shoot since I made changes. I just made a batch of Felix lube I'll try too.
EG