Eletrolytic bore cleaners......

[3006guns]

I've used electrolytic rust removal on many of my antique engines and one very tired 6.5 Jap barrel.....always worked well. I was perusing some articles on various sites this morning and found two advising on how to make a home built unit. What caught my attention was that, in each case, the polaity connections were described incorrectly. If wired up according to the articles, you would be removing barrel steel....not good.

The negative side of the circuit is attached to the object you wish to derust (the bore). Just think "negative-subtract rust" and wire that to the metal of the gun. The rod down the bore gets the positive lead. Under these conditions the rod is eaten by the electrolytic action. If reversed, the bore is eaten by the electrolytic action.

Just a word to the wise.

[HORNET]

Why would you want to be consuming the rod when the goal is to un-plate the copper and lead from the bore and deposit them on the rod?

[3006guns]

You may have a point, maybe we're talking apples and oranges....BUT

I know for fact that if you reverse the polarity, the object you are trying to derust will be eaten up. So, even if you're trying to remove copper, lead, etc. the current flow will still cause the parent surface (the barrel steel) to be removed. The process is used to restore iron artifacts retrieved from the ocean and believe me they're pretty careful about polarity.

The whole idea behind electrolysis is to have a SACRIFICIAL anode (the rod)...that's why it has a pitted appearance when removed.

[scrapcan]

3006 guns,

I think the idea is that you remove the material from the barrel, i.e. copper/lead, and by choosing the proper solution you remove those materials and not the barrel steel. You are sacrificing the copper/lead to plate on the rod.

In your experience of de-rusting you are wanting to remove the oxides from the to keep piece and attaching them to the iron from the sacrificial anode which then become scum in the bucket, but not removing additional iron.

Different outcome but same technique.

[JIMinPHX]

I think that the difference in polarity is because one guy is trying to strip copper & the other guy is trying to replace clean iron to a rusted barrel. I could be wrong.

[BudRow]

Is it Outters that makes a commercial unit called "Foul Out"? If so what is their polarity connections? Bud

[montana_charlie]

This one says to connect Positive to the electrode, and negative to the ferrous item being de-rusted.
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm

But those for removing copper have you connect Positive to the item being cleaned.

The copper becomes the 'sacrifice' with this polarity, and the solution determines what metal is going to be removed.

Vinegar/ammonia/water for copper...
Water and washing soda for steel & iron...

CM

[3006guns]

AHAA! That's the info I was looking for. The difference is in the application of the technique. My statement holds true IF you are using a washing soda electrolite for rust, but other chemicals such as ammonia probably require a polarity reversal. Makes some sense now. Thanks!

[markinalpine]

This site has two write-ups. One about a commercial item: http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/lovemyguns/index.asp

And the other about build your own versions: http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp

I made one with an old cell-phone power supply, a plain steel rod and a rubber plug from the hardware store, and used non-sudsing ammonia for the solution.

Mark :coffeecom

[2manygunz]

I built a unit from the surplusrifle article. I used a 12 volt charger transformer for the power source. stainless rod .125 OD for the electrode, rubber O-rings for spacers, and a rubber stopper with "centering dimple" to plug the barrel. I have to keep replacing the electrolyte that boils away while in use.
I don't go overboard. Use maybe once a year. You cannot believe the crud that comes out of a "well cleaned " barrel. No noticeable damage to the barrel. (the electrolyte will remove bluing!) Mostly I am cleaning up old milsurp rifles that are hard to make any worse.

[wistlepig1]

I to built one, I use Vinegar/ammonia/water, for copper. I limit my run time to 15 min. or so, change the fluid after each run, and have not had any bore problems by neg to rod and ***. to barrel. I also make sure that I put electrial tape at the muzzle to protect it just in case the rod is bumped. Been using one for 2 1/2 years and it sure gets the copper crud out. For what it's worth, one opinion.:bigsmyl2:

[mooman76]

I have heard if you use this method and leave it hooked up too long it will start eating the rifling out of the barrel.

[Beekeeper]

I have been using an electronic bore cleaner for several years on my old antique weapons that I restore.
I use a small 3 volt battery charger and connect the positive (red ) lead to the part or barrel and the negative ( black ) lead to the rod.
Has been working good for me.
Use water and baking soda to remove rust and most crud.
Interspace vinegar/water or amonia/ water ever5 or 6 runs to break any layers of copper loose so you can go back and get at more of the rust and crud.
If you only have copper build up use the amonia/ water mix or the vinegar/water mix.
I have never mixed vinegar and amonia together,Brrrr what a toxic mix.


Jim

[Flinchrock]

I have noticed that some use the term "baking soda"
and some use the term "washing soda" are they the same?

[Flinchrock]

No they are not, washing soda=sodium carbonate.
Baking soda=bicarbonate of soda.
Question is, are they interchangeable?

[Beekeeper]

Flinchrock,
the original article about electronic bore cleaners I read stated to use washing soda.
It is not available in my area so I took a leap of faith and used baking soda.
In the 2 plus years I have been using it it has worked well.
I have used amonia / water or sometimes straight amonia to break copper loose.
I know the baking soda works as I have taken a 1888 commission rifle barrel that was so rusty that I had to drive a rod through it to see daylight.
Using baking sode and water I was able to clean it up to be a shooter.
It isn't shiney and it isn't dark has good rifling and meets the specs for an 1888 commission rifle barrel.
It took about 3 weeks to get it done and a lot of baking soda and patience.
But at 71 what else do I have.
Hope some of my ramblings have helped.

Jim

[3006guns]

O.K.....based on my experience using electrolytic rust removal:

Baking soda vs. washing soda (both Arm & Hammer products): Both will work, but the soda is faster and more effective. It's what I use for derusting iron and steel all the time. Easy to set up, cheap and effective. For further explanation, Google Harry's Old Engines or just electrolytic rust removal.

Polarity: Vital to have the negative on the part you wish to clean, that is the negative lead clipped to the rifle action, positive to the rod, when using either soda. THIS IS TO REMOVE RUST. Leaving it on in this configuration will NOT remove the steel, just the oxidation (rust) so it can be left on for extended periods of time...no harm done. It will cause a black sludge inside the barrel that can be removed with water, scrubbing followed by oiling. The result is rust free steel. It may be pitted from the original rust but there's nothing you can do about that. Used in this fashion the process will NOT harm the barrel steel. You'll notice however, that the rod is badly pitted or almost eaten away. It is a "sacrificial anode". If you reverse the polarity the BARREL becomes the sacrificial anode......not good.

Removing lead, copper, etc.: This is where my original question came up. I know that reversing the leads (positive on the action, negative on the rod) WILL cause etching of the barrel steel when removing rust, yet evidently (according to what I've seen) it works if an ammonia solution of some sort is used. I'm still not sure if there's some "magic" chemistry involved or not but I sure wouldn't leave it operating too long. I think that's why the manufactured units have some sort of time increment involved.

[montana_charlie]

Removing lead, copper, etc.: This is where my original question came up. I know that reversing the leads (positive on the action, negative on the rod) WILL cause etching of the barrel steel when removing rust, yet evidently (according to what I've seen) it works if an ammonia solution of some sort is used. I'm still not sure if there's some "magic" chemistry involved or not but I sure wouldn't leave it operating too long. I think that's why the manufactured units have some sort of time increment involved.
I have not built one of the home made units, and have no personal experience with electrolytic removal of copper, lead or rust. I only know what I read.
With that understood, I found this in a discussion about using an Outer's Foul Out for removal of copper...

I own one, but usually only use it on the most extreme metal fouling build-up in old rough barreled military guns and the like. It takes a number of hours to work. You can't use it in a gas gun without plugging the gas port. You also have to know that a gun with any rust in the bore will contaminate the electrolyte in a way that allows it to etch the steel instead of just removing metal fouling, so you have to check the color of the liquid to be sure that isn't happening. (Bold emphasis added by me...)

CM