Cap and Ball question

[218bee]

Well, over the weekend I cleaned out my gun/reloading room as it was below zero all weekend and did not want to venture out much. I came across a cap and ball revolver I made from a kit from Dixie's about 40 years ago.I knew I had it but never thought about it much. The brass frame was green but suprisingly no rust to speak of. So I spent yesterday taking it apart and cleaning it up and now I want to try shooting it again. Has not been shot since I built it many years ago when I was a kid and I remember not being able to hit with it but did not really know what I was doing. Barrel is like new measuring .439 lands and .442 grooves. I am still trying to get off four of the nipples after breaking the nipple wrench that I had which was more rusted than the gun. Now the chambers in cylinder are about .447 measured with pin guage. So I am glad its larger than groove. I see Hornady makes round ball that are .445 if not mistaken...would these be too small for cylinder as I hear your supposed to shave a ring of lead when seating them??? I have a bunch of 2F Black...is this too coarse or do I need 3F??. #10 or #11 caps..don't remember what I tried before many years ago. Whats the difference. Whats a powder charge to try. Not expecting much but would like to try and play with this as I built it when I was 13yrs old. Thinking of just buying some lead balls first to try it rather than investing in a mold for now. Any input will be appreciated

[fishhawk]

i have always used a .451 pure lead ball in the cap and ball revolvers the ruger calls for a .457 if i remember right. steve k

[Captain*Kirk]

Use .451 or .454 RB or .44 cal conical. Should use #11 caps, start with around 25 grains of FFF or Pyrodex P and work up from there. What is it a replica of?

[Captain*Kirk]

i have always used a .451 pure lead ball in the cap and ball revolvers the ruger calls for a .457 if i remember right. steve k

Yes. Ruger uses the .457 RB in the New Army, which is actually a .45cal.

[philthephlier]

.442 in the grooves is a pretty tight bore. Current production revolvers that are referred to as 44's are actually pretty close to .450 in the grooves. I don't know if you could ram a .454 ball into those chambers or a .451 for that matter. Might work. If you can get it into the chamber it will be swaged to a correct diameter for your bore. 28-30 grains of 3 F would be the preferred granulation and #10 caps generally were common on Italian guns from that period. Brass frame guns will shoot loose with full chambers of powder under the bullet. Full charge would be about 35 gr. soak the cylinder in Kroil or another penetrating liquid to loosen the other nipples. Get a new nipple wrench before you try removing them. Dixie has them and Track of the Wolf, Muzzleloader's Building Supply.

[Dframe]

Good advice from all. Yes you can use 2F powder. Won't hurt a thing. #10 and #11 caps are very similar one being slightly smaller than the other. If you make a mistake and get the larger it won't matter. Just give them a slight pinch before pressing them on the nipples.

[Wayne Smith]

I load a wool felt wad soaked in lube under the ball in my cap and ball revolvers. Not quite the same as a dry wad but I'm not loading to keep as a ready firearm, I'm loading to shoot now so no worries about corrupting the powder.

[dualsport]

A ball that is large enough will shave a little ring of lead off as it's seated in the chamber. That's a safety issue, it seals the chamber against chain fires.

[mooman76]

I believe 454 is the most common size but it would be a good place to start. If it feels to tight then go with 451 and if it could go some more move up to 457.

[docone31]

I use .454, but I prefer .457. I have a Colt Navy .44. I like the larger land surface. If it was not that much of a strain on the ramrod, I would go with .457.
With the same load, the .457 is more accurate than .454. I think the extra volume of lead makes the difference.

[Range Gypsy]

I will put my 2 cents worth in.

I shoot a remington repro. in 44 I use .457 and get a nice shaving off when seating the balls. I understand that colts are often tighter, perhaps .451 will work fine
I get the best groups with 16gr of FFF but FF should be little different. As with all loading I would suggest starting light and working up. Brass open tops won't stand as much as the remies. But anything up to 20gr should be a safe start.

I use corn meal for a filler (no air space remember) but have also used coffee to take up the space. Cream of wheat works also.

After seating the balls I coat the end of the cylinder with Crisco It acts as a lube. SPG is better in summer but not in the cold.

I use #11 caps even though my present revolver has #10 nipples ( #11 works on everything I have) just give them a pinch to keep them from falling off during recoil.

My gun will out shoot me, but it took some playing to find the load it liked. Have fun :Fire:

~ Range Gypsy

[NickSS]

Those old repros like you have all had front sights that were like the originals and too low by modern standards. You will find most likely that your pistol shoots about 8 inches high at 25 yards. I have one gun like that and just hold low. More modern repros have front sights that are higher and shoot closer to hitting the bull at 25 yards with a 6 oclock hold. I always shoot the same load in my 44s namely a .451 RB and 28 gr of powder. I came on that load because my pistols will allow the ball to contact the powder with that charge without filler. I hate using filler so found a load that gave me good accuracy and no air space. Works like a champ.

[philthephlier]

After loading the 6 chambers at home I drizzle candle wax into the mouths of the chambers until filled and then cut off the excess with a single edge razor blade. I never cap the gun until safely on the firing line! The candle wax works well also if you are taking the gun on a hunt. Won't soften enough to run no matter how warm it gets, whereas crisco will liquify on a warm day and run out of the chambers.

[218bee]

Heres a pic after some cleaning..Don't know what it is supposed to be a copy of..do you???

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/nkorhn/MISC/pistol.jpg

[jlchucker]

I've had both Colt repros and Remington repros over the years. All I have now is an older Remmie repro that's been shortened to 5 1/2 inches. When I first started, back in the early 70's when you could mail order and get a steel-frame repro of just about anything for 69 bucks or less, the Dixie Gun Works catalog was as much a source of info as it was a catalog. They seemed to say to use .451 round balls in lots of stuff. I found that these fit loose in some guns, so I started using Hornaday .454's. They fit everything I had nicely (including Walker and Dragoon repros, and I've never used anything else since. I've read that the Ruger revolvers take a bigger ball, though.

[docone31]

1858 Remington.
If memory serves me, they say it is the second to go, it was a Confederate version. Apparently they made a few copies in brass.
Ok for mild loads. The advantage to it over the Colt, was, you could carry several loaded cylinders. An advantage over loading after the one cylinder was out.

[Boz330]

Docone is correct 58 Remington Replica. I had one of these that I picked up for IIRC about $42 or $45 on a trip to Dixie. I don't remember how it shot but I bought a Lyman mould for it in I believe 451. I still have the mould but sold the gun years ago, kinda wish I still had it now. Should be a hoot to shoot. Have fun.

Bob

[JIMinPHX]

Yes, you need to be able to shave a ring of lead off the ball when you load it. This is important. Too big is better than too small.

58 Remingtons normally take #10 caps, but the nipples can be changed, & either #10 or #11 nipples will fit on that gun. You should really get caps that fit right. Loose caps give you a slight risk of back side chain fire & fall off sometimes. Tight caps are hard to get on the nipples & blow to smitherines when fired, spitting all kinds of debris into the lockworks of the gun. Even within a single size of cap, some variation exists between brands. Remington #10 & CCI #10 caps each fit a little differently. I don't remember which one is the big one & which is the small one. RWS also makes a 10.75, that is slightly smaller than a real #11. If it's an American made gun, then the nipple threads are likely either #12-28 or 1/4-28, but could also be a few other things. If its an Italian gun, then the nipple threads are likely M6 x 0.75mm, which is an unusual extra fine thread. I did manage to find a tap that size from MSC that I was able to use to fix a boogered up cylinder once.

It's also a good idea to get some wonder wads to put under the balls when you load the gun. They give an extra layer of safety against front side chain fires & they make clean up a lot easier. They keep the crud from building up so fast.

A .38 special case makes a good powder measure for one of those things if you have nothing else. You can use a smaller case for lite loads, but be sure to seat the ball all the way down against the powder charge. That's important too.

[JIMinPHX]

The candle wax works well also if you are taking the gun on a hunt. Won't soften enough to run no matter how warm it gets

Maybe where you live...
Here in Phoenix, I've left a 3" candle sitting on the ledge by a window in my shop & come back to find the candle running down the side of the frame. It gets pretty hot here.

Wonder Lube holds up to the heat a lot better than Bore Butter does, but the Phoenix summers are tough on everything that I've ever tried.

[218bee]

Thanks for all the input guys. I ordered a new nipple wrench and some other stuff and it looks like I should buy some 3FFF?? or would my 2FF work ok? I'll start at 25-28gr. Not looking to magnamize it, just will be happy if I can keep 5 on a paper plate at 25 yds.

[JIMinPHX]

I've seen an out of the box Pietta hit playing cards at that distance.

I've never used 2F in a pistol before. I would expect that it would burn a little dirty.

[bob208]

i have used 2f in my pistols when i ran out of 3f.

[docone31]

That is what lube instead of candle wax is for. Keeps the fouling soft.

[Captain*Kirk]

Never tried FF. Always used Pyrodex P in my revolvers and really like it.
Crisco or Bore Butter, or whatever can get really messy after a few cylinders-full. Never tried wax; seems like it would leave a hell of a mess in the rifling. I bought some Wonder Wads but have not tried them out yet. I'm becoming intrigued with the idea of rolling paper patch cartridges for my pistols; I'm told the paper serves as the wad or grease to prevent chainfires.
The guys have the gun pegged right; 1858 Remington brass frame Confederate replica. Best of luck shooting!

[JIMinPHX]

I've also had good luck with Pyrodex P. Some guys swear by holy black & curse the synthetic stuff, but I've had no trouble with it. I've never had a single misfire & accuracy has been great.

Besides, it's easy to remember which type of Pyrodex to use - P for pistol, RS for rifle & shotgun.:mrgreen:

[NickSS]

2F will work but give you lower velocity and more fouling. In Phoenix anything will melt in the summer. I was down that way a few years ago for a BPCR match and had to keep my ammo litteraly on ice before I shot it or the lube would melt. As for the confederates making remingtons of any sort it did not happen. They made some colt navy copies some with iron and some with brass frames as well as some brass frame copies of the Whitney Navy revolver. The Dace Brothers made some copies of the colts dragoon model in Texas and there was at least one original design shooting reloadable self contained cartridges. They also made derringers and other single shot pistols to some extent but not for the army except really very early in the war.

[Captain*Kirk]

2F will work but give you lower velocity and more fouling. In Phoenix anything will melt in the summer. I was down that way a few years ago for a BPCR match and had to keep my ammo litteraly on ice before I shot it or the lube would melt. As for the confederates making remingtons of any sort it did not happen. They made some colt navy copies some with iron and some with brass frames as well as some brass frame copies of the Whitney Navy revolver. The Dace Brothers made some copies of the colts dragoon model in Texas and there was at least one original design shooting reloadable self contained cartridges. They also made derringers and other single shot pistols to some extent but not for the army except really very early in the war.

Clarification; I wasn't inplying the Confeds made the Remington reps, only that many of the imports are tagged as such "being that the Rebs were short on steel, thus used brass in place of steel for the non-stressed parts".....or words to that effect.
Mostly, the Rebs used whatever they could get their hands on, usually taken from a dead Union soldier when supplies got short due to the blockades.