Brief statistics on deer shot with WFN type cast.

[Changeling]

How much is enough (bullet weight, speed and meplat) , it seems to be the question that everyone gets confused about or really don't know the answer to. Recent postings/link by the gentleman who owns Beartooth Bullets suggests a formula, sorta, and Veral Smith gets a little more involved in his book about the same subject with his type of formulas.
I have read both and tend to go with what Veral says (in his book) but others may think differently, Veral can be evasive about being specific as well as others, LOL.

So I thought it would be cool/informative if everyone that has shot deer with a WFN type bullet (LBT/Keith/Whatever) with complete pass troughs or not, would tell of there experiences briefly as to caliber, velocity, Meplat size, distance to subject, Pass through, or whatever has been there personnel experiences and estimation of wound diameter. Anything you want to add.

This should be LlIMITED to chest cavity type wounds from "ANY" angle.

[Changeling]

Whoops, forgot to reply to my own post.

I have only shot 1 deer with a "revolver". 44 Mag, 260gr LBT WFN, 22 grains of 2400 (Velocity unknown), 7.5 inch barrel.

Shot went diagonally through shoulder and chest area, about 100 yd, tore up the lungs, exited about the size of a quarter. Dropped in his tracks and slid a few feet.

[44man]

Keep the velocity under about 1400 fps and you will never have a problem and never recover a boolit.
Even slower will do the job but I can only add that accuracy should come first so if you are between 1100 and 1400 fps where your gun shoots best, they will kill like crazy.
I don't believe in formulas, only what happens to deer since they are all I have to hunt here. I do know if you take a hard cast WFN and shoot it too fast, it will zip through with little internal damage.
I feel the flat nose creates a large secondary wound channel if too fast because of the pressure wave off the nose. The channel collapses, leaving too small of a primary channel. I tried a WLN with the same results. This is where some expansion is needed.
Now a much larger animal might slow the boolit enough to create a larger primary channel.
I believe in complete penetration but have become a believer in "dwell time" inside the animal too.
You want the boolit to cut, rip and destroy tissue instead of moving it out of the way.
My experiments will never end but I have to wait for deer seasons for testing. I learn more each season with revolvers.
I did pretty good this last season with six deer. I still need to tweak the 45-70 BFR, a soft hollow point was too destructive. The .475 worked with perfection with hard cast.
My .44, .45 and the Old Army cap and ball always worked so I didn't use them last year. Could have been because I don't have anything cast or loaded! :coffee:

[Edubya]

.
My .44, .45 and the Old Army cap and ball always worked so I didn't use them last year. Could have been because I don't have anything cast or loaded! :coffee:
Maybe we shold take up a collection for the 44man. I mean after all he has to clean up and butcher these six hunks of venison and where would he ever have the time to replenish his .44 & .45 stash if we don't make a contribution?:violin:

Who is apt to make a profit from their contribution? Maybe we could get one of these boolit manufacturers to contribute the boolits to 44man to test and recommend their boolits, then we could put all three of them on equal footings.
EW

[44man]

Maybe we shold take up a collection for the 44man. I mean after all he has to clean up and butcher these six hunks of venison and where would he ever have the time to replenish his .44 & .45 stash if we don't make a contribution?:violin:

Who is apt to make a profit from their contribution? Maybe we could get one of these boolit manufacturers to contribute the boolits to 44man to test and recommend their boolits, then we could put all three of them on equal footings.
EW
More then that, had to help Whitworth too. But I only keep two deer. The lady where I hunt gets two and her sister also gets two. They come and help butcher when they can.
The time problem is taking my wife to get her back worked on four times a week and that might go on past April. I have to feed the animals twice a day and do all the shopping.
Now I have two guns to fix and a friend wants me to build a huge RC airplane for him.
I need more booze! :veryconfu

[sixshot]

Most here will reply with their experience on deer because thats the #1 game animal we have & you southern & eastern boys out number us western hunters 20-1, so I'll tell about game bigger than deer.
Of the 27 elk I've taken over the years quite a number of them have been with sixguns & cast bullets, including the last 6. I've mentioned before about using the 270 gr Speer Gold Dot in one of my 44's, its a very good game bullet but I've shot cast since the 60's & they always work if the shooter is a shooter!
With few exceptions I try to run around 1100 fps depending on accuracy, once I'm at that speed I only tweek up or down to find the sweet spot, this in the 41, 44, 45 & 480. I've taken game in Africa with the 475 but I like the 480 a lot & have a 5 shot Bisley on the way!
For most all my game taking I've used Keith 230's in the 41 magnum, Keith 250's in the 44's & Keith 260's in the 45's with some elk (4) taken with LBT WFN's. I've really never noticed much difference in killing effect between them, although the LBT's shoot better at distance almost always.
Of all the elk, moose & bear taken, including some plains game in Africa, I've never recovered a single cast slug, some shots have been right off the muzzle & some probably shouldn't have been taken because of long range but I've never lost an animal yet. While I usually try to shoot tight behind the shoulder sometimes that hasn't been possible & a "raking" shot has been used with the vitals & off shoulder being hit on the off side.
In the west its not very common to get a shot on the same level as the shooter, usually they are steep uphill or downhill, many times looking right at you so they are somewhat jazzed up & ready to run. Still because of the distance its usually possible to get both lungs where as the eastern hunter sometimes is elevated & getting both lungs can be difficult when shooting down at steep angles. I believe this is the #1 reason many of the eastern whitetails run quite a distance at times. Running on one lung they can cover quite a bit of ground.
I've taken several whitetails in the last few years because of hunting in Montana, you can buy up to 5 tags I think, anyway, we've taken quite a number of them, they are really fun to hunt! Deer aren't hard to kill, they can be hard to hit but if hit correctly they are nothing like a hog, elk or warthog. Elk are tough, they absolutely need to be hit hard & pound them until they quit. Moose aren't as tough in my opinion, but they are dumb & act different, they just soak up the shot & walk away, not very far, then they realize they are dead & down they go!
My last elk, taken this year was shot at 74 yds using a Ruger 41 Bisley, 250 gr WFN LBT running at just under 1100 fps, she didn't take a single step, the shot took out both shoulders & she dropped on the spot with a complete pass through. Don't know what could have done any better, her lungs was hashed.
Black bears are similiar to deer in that that aren't hard to kill if the shot is correct, if not things can get interesting. They are lower to the ground & much more compact than deer, heavily muscled with long hair, they look much bigger than they really are because of the long hair, hit them right & they quit pretty easy.
This years cow elk.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/photosfrom2009467-1.jpg

Lungs & damage from 250 gr LBT

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/photosfrom2009470.jpg

Last years bear (6' 9") 10" 44 magnum, iron sights, about 88 yds, 250 gr Keith

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1398-5.jpg

Moose, 5 yrs ago, offhand, 45 yds, Ruger 480 & 370 gr softnose cast, one shot.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/moose-3.jpg

Late cow hunt, two years ago in november, 168 yds, Ruger 45 with 260 gr Keith

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1054-10.jpg

Dick

[44man]

Sixshot, thank you, that is some great hunting and shooting, I envy you.
You show the large animals do not need high velocity and fast expanding boolits, you know what works and it adds to a hunter's knowledge here. GREAT JOB!
I agree about tree stands and up and down shots. I rarely get over 12 feet but see stands for archery at 20 and even over 30 feet up a tree. It would scare the heck out of me to get halfway to them!
That high is a very poor choice and deer look real tiny from up there and angles for good hits just goes away. I don't understand those guys.
Keep posting more details too. A good hunter is worth his weight in gold when it comes to boolit performance know how.

[2shot]

My results from shooting Federals 41 cal Hardcast 250 gr flat points on whitetails are more like 44mans that Dick's (BTW nice shooting Dick). While I'm sure that the number of animals I've taken doesn't come close to Sixshot I have taken over 50 whitetails with my handguns, both 41 and 44 mags. I have noticed that on several occasions the lack of a blood trail when using the Federal loads and the 41. One shot was almost straight down from about 10 feet, missed the backbone and one lunged the deer. No blood trail but I did crack a rock about the size of a bowling ball in half that was under the deer after it exited. Trailing job was about 300 yards long and found the deer dead. I waited about 3 hours after the shot when I saw that there was no blood trail before I started the tracking. The other was a shot of 110 yards checked with a lazer rangfinder with the same gun and bullet on a standing doe of about 140 pounds, double lunged. Same result as the first, no blood trail although I did find hair at the spot where the deer was standing when I took the shot. Another tracking job of about 300 yards and I found the deer. These two deer were the extreme but I did have others that I shot with this combination of bullet and gun and have had little to no blood trail. All of my whitetail handgun hunts have been while there is snow on the ground and I'm glad of that because several of these deer that I have shot that had no blood trail never would have been found without the tracking help of the snow. Another deer I had shot was one lunged and liver hit and only showed blood where it had bedded down. I tracked this one to early and jumped it several times. It was one sick deer and I'm sure that it would have expired sooner if I didn't keep forcing the issue. Because of these problems I had with the 41 and Hardcast I have only used this combo on about `12-15 deer. Jacketed HP's have had a better track record with me and the 41.

While I have never used a WFN in the 44 mag I have used the Remington 240 SJHP with great success and this has become my go to round while hunting whitetails. It has never failed me yet.

With that being said, I have a whitetail hunt coming up in mid January. I'm planning to take my 41 mag and the Federal Hardcast. This time I'm planning to take somewhat different shots with regaurds to placement. While I have always shot whitetails through the ribcage behind the shoulder, I'm planning on trying to hit a shoulder along with the ribcage if I can get the shot on this upcoming hunt. I'm sure that this will make a big difference. With my 8 3/8" 657 and a 2-6 power scope I can call my shots, I just have to be more paitient. With this gun and Federal's Hardcast I can keep all six rounds from it's cylinder in the black of a B-2 slowfire target at 100 yards, it's a real shooter!

2shot

[2shot]

The above should read Federal Cast Core not Hardcast.

My bad.

2shot

[Changeling]

This was really interesting relative to just how deadly and the power of cast bullets in the 250/260 gr range. I would never have thought that one could get complete pass troughs on Elk like "sixshot showed us, BTW, fantastic pictures, they sure make a lot of difference Dick. I've never shot an Elk but my neighbor has. He's told me many times how they can sometimes soak up the lead like they weren't even being hit.

I was just about ready to order a heavy bullet mold in the 300 range thinking I was going to need it, now I see that I won't as long as I can get the accuracy out of the lighter cast bullets.

44Man I thought you were shooting all those deer this year with the 475, I didn't realize you were switching up revolvers .

This definitely changes the way I was seeing things in my mind concerning hand guns and loads.


Thanks very much to all.

[sixshot]

2shot, the shot on that cow elk was the high shoulder shot, taking out both shoulders & exiting nut it still got lungs, she absolutely never took a step, the shot through the shoulders anchored her right there, she was the lead cow out of six head walking towards me, when they got broadside I stopped them with a calf bleat just using my mouth, works everytime.
This elk in the photo is a very large calf, taken last year, the shot was with my Ruger 45 Bisley & a 325 LBT LFN at about 45-50 yds, one shot, complete pass through, took 2-3 steps backwards & down.
Elk are very tough, they have to be hit hard, very tight behind the shoulders or through the shoulders works great. I've seen some so shot up from rifles you can't even imagine how they can stand, much less run.

This is last years calf elk, at the shot it just locked up for 5-6 seconds like it had been hit with electricity, then 2-3 steps backwards & down.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1717-1.jpg

Heart & lungs after the 325 gr LBT passed through.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1723-1.jpg

Dick

[yondering]

sixshot, thanks for the very informative and well written posts!
Interesting walking stick in the bear photo, looks like a drill bit pattern carved into it. Did you make it?

On a slight tangent but somewhat related to this thread, sixshot, how hard were the boolits you've used on those elk? Really hard, or ACWW, or something softer? Whatever you're doing, it looks like it works.

[leadman]

I used the Lee 44 caliber 310gr. RFN with ACWW in a Ruger SBH to take a cow elk on the reservation here in Az.
Load was 24grs. of WC680 for about 1,150fps. Elk was standing broadside at 75 yards, bullet went in right behind the shoulder, through both lungs and out the other side. Ran about 60 yards and laid down. Used another shot to finish it off.

No bullet expansion that I could tell, the exit hole looked like a round 44 cal. hole. Lungs were not in good shape though.

[Edubya]

Hey Sixshot, It appears in your first entry in this thread that the elk cow and the bear were packing some iron. Sure glad that you got them, they might have been terrorist. :)
Great pictures, thanks for sharing the pics and the info,
EW

[2shot]

Sixshot;

Indeed some nice shooting!

I think that where you have hit these animals is where I should be aiming. My bow hunting instinct takes over when I shoot a handgun at big game and I usually shoot behing the leg. Taking out a shoulder or two works every time and that's the shot I have to learn to take.

I would also have to say that you were on the right track with your first post. Back here where I hunt (east of the Mississippi) a deer running 300 yards after it's hit is a possible lost deer due to smaller farms and tracks of land, number of hunters per square mile and some swamps that you just can't get back into let alone track something in. All the deer that I have hit with the Federal Cast Core bullets have died and none have gotten away, they just didn't drop like your elk did but then that's because of where they were hit not because of the bullet type. If I had the wide open spaces to hunt like out west I think I would be using nothing but WFN bullets. I dought seriously that one of my Remington SJHP's would have opened up at the range of 168 yards like you took one of your cow elks at. The WFN wouldn't have to expand at that range, just penetrate like it did for you and that would take a big variable out of the equation.

Bottom line is both bullet types work for me, just that the SJHP's seem to shock the deer more and drop them a little faster with hits in the ribcage (not shoulder)so I don't get someone else tagging my deer. I wish I had the open spaces that you hunt in, it looks like great country!

2shot

[pls1911]

I'm of the opinion that elk are certainly tougher than deer, but no worse than a healthy and mature 250 pound hog... and NOT as ornery!!

Either the old 30-30 170 grain cast or the old .45 with 250-325 graines cast just ruins their day... DRT if I do my part... no tracking.

[sixshot]

Yondering, I buy those walking sticks from one of the stockmakers in Missouri, the name escapes me right now. I never hunt without one, here in the west they work very well because of the steep terrain. I can usually sit down, lay the stick on somewhat of an angle across my left thigh, run my left hand through the leather thong & grasp the gun with both hands & I'm as steady as a rock. In flat country the stick is a little too long most times but shooting up hill or downhill they are great.
I normally use air cooled WW's or 5 parts lead to 2 parts linotype, I seldom stray from one of these 2 alloys. Sometimes I use softnose cast & I make them the way Ross Seyfried explained in a Handloader article some years back, they are terrific because they are fool proof, once you decide on your velocity you can get as much expansion as you want, depending on how much pure lead you use. Want to make a real killer out of a 357, put a small amount of pure lead on top of that water quenched WW rear & it really amps up the shock! You'll get expansion like a jacketed bullet & great penetration like a normal cast bullet, my moose was down & out in seconds using them.

Dick

[44man]

Yondering, I buy those walking sticks from one of the stockmakers in Missouri, the name escapes me right now. I never hunt without one, here in the west they work very well because of the steep terrain. I can usually sit down, lay the stick on somewhat of an angle across my left thigh, run my left hand through the leather thong & grasp the gun with both hands & I'm as steady as a rock. In flat country the stick is a little too long most times but shooting up hill or downhill they are great.
I normally use air cooled WW's or 5 parts lead to 2 parts linotype, I seldom stray from one of these 2 alloys. Sometimes I use softnose cast & I make them the way Ross Seyfried explained in a Handloader article some years back, they are terrific because they are fool proof, once you decide on your velocity you can get as much expansion as you want, depending on how much pure lead you use. Want to make a real killer out of a 357, put a small amount of pure lead on top of that water quenched WW rear & it really amps up the shock! You'll get expansion like a jacketed bullet & great penetration like a normal cast bullet, my moose was down & out in seconds using them.

Dick
I made some soft nose boolits like that for my WFN .475 but I am afraid to shoot a deer with them!!!! :bigsmyl2:
The hard cast at about 25 BHN is so destructive on the insides now that I don't want to change them. Exit holes are almost boolit size and meat damage is low but here is what happens inside.
By the way, this boolit has made 37" in wet phone books so unless a guy likes to butcher a lot, never shoot with other deer behind the one you shoot at, you might kill four with one shot! :veryconfu

[Bucks Owin]

Wow, some great stuff here! And the 168 yd shot with the open sighted .45LC/260 SWC is a fine long range handgun shot! I agree that moose haven't much "will to live", I lived up in BC for 24 yrs and have seen a lot of moose killed, mostly with the old .270 with both 130 and 150 Noslers. (No handgun hunting there, even ownership is a pain! :mad:) Plunked in the ribcage, they may go 50 to 100 yds and lay down to die if not chased right away. What part of MT do you hail from? Thinking to move there myself if possible next summer. Great photos, many thanks!....Dennis ;-)

[44man]

Wow, some great stuff here! And the 168 yd shot with the open sighted .45LC/260 SWC is a fine long range handgun shot! I agree that moose haven't much "will to live", I lived up in BC for 24 yrs and have seen a lot of moose killed, mostly with the old .270 with both 130 and 150 Noslers. (No handgun hunting there, even ownership is a pain! :mad:) Plunked in the ribcage, they may go 50 to 100 yds and lay down to die if not chased right away. What part of MT do you hail from? Thinking to move there myself if possible next summer. Great photos, many thanks!....Dennis ;-)
OH MY, moving from BC to Kalifornification was not a very good move. You have to move to AMERICA! :mrgreen:
Before you leave, kick the fault line! [smilie=w:

[sixshot]

44man, yes that softnose in the 475 would be really bad on deer, you wouldn't have much left. Where they really shine is on game that needs a little more thump or where you are shooting a slug that has a somewhat smaller meplat.
One of the guys I invited out this year put 2 of my softnose 44 completely through a large cow elk from about 50 yds I think it was. Even with the pure lead on top both slugs made it clear through her & we measured the exits holes, one measured 1.3 & the other measured 1.4 inches, this was using a dial caliper, it was impressive that the nose didn't shear off.

Bucks Owin, if you're referring to me, I live in SE Idaho, tucked down in the corner next to Utah on the south & Wyoming on the east, I'm 1 hr from Freedom Arms.

Now about some of these rivers, there are some real arm yankers in them, but you have to keep it quiet! Show a Utahan a bucket of water & he'll stick a fishing line in it!

Dick

[Bucks Owin]

OH MY, moving from BC to Kalifornification was not a very good move. You have to move to AMERICA! :mrgreen:
Before you leave, kick the fault line! [smilie=w: LOL, yep, you got THAT right! Shasta county Kalifornia was a great place for a kid in the 50's & 60's, guess that's why I came back here from BC. Now I can't wait to leave. Let the owl loving, tree hugging libs and antigunner's slide into the Pacific for all I care! :roll: Dennis (Who thinks the Libby, MT area looks plumb enticing! ;-))

[Changeling]

Sixshot unless I am mistaken (very possible) the alloys you are using are not hard cast but some what on the soft side. Is this correct? Do you put/intergrate the "dab" of pure lead on top of these soft alloys for all your bullets?

Wouldn't this give you like a 2 stage projectile that would spread on contact/continue and then the base expand somewhat also for the remainder of the energy?

In other words aren't you using a 2 stage expanding bullet ? Where did you learn this technique, it sounds awesome and based on the pictures it really works some kind of AWESOME!

Unless I'm totally wrong in my hypothesis.

[44man]

Sixshot unless I am mistaken (very possible) the alloys you are using are not hard cast but some what on the soft side. Is this correct? Do you put/intergrate the "dab" of pure lead on top of these soft alloys for all your bullets?

Wouldn't this give you like a 2 stage projectile that would spread on contact/continue and then the base expand somewhat also for the remainder of the energy?

In other words aren't you using a 2 stage expanding bullet ? Where did you learn this technique, it sounds awesome and based on the pictures it really works some kind of AWESOME!

Unless I'm totally wrong in my hypothesis.
The soft nose is not needed with certain calibers and boolits but they ARE deadly when you need them. Not hard to make, I am set up for them. Best of both worlds, expansion and penetration but if you get carried away you can kill, skin and grind the animal! All you need is sausage casings! :drinks:

[Changeling]

The soft nose is not needed with certain calibers and boolits but they ARE deadly when you need them. Not hard to make, I am set up for them. Best of both worlds, expansion and penetration but if you get carried away you can kill, skin and grind the animal! All you need is sausage casings! :drinks:


I might have know you have already been there seen it and done it, LOL. I'm just trying to learn.

From what Dick said I was kinda reading between the lines, but won't know till he answers.

I have been leaning towards the 280 because Veral , you and everyone else seems to think on the heavy side of the equation. Anyway I can't order till I get accurate measurements.

[Tazman1602]

WOW WOW WOW!! Sixgun and 44 that is some GREAT INFO and BETTER pictures! Thank you!

You know my thinking used to be "harder is better" when it came to lead bullets but wife shot a spike with a 265 gr saboted Ranch Dog type bullet with her muzzleloader that I had cast and NOT heat treated and I was very surprised at the performance. May have been pushing it a bit fast as not much expansion was evident and bullet passed all the way through so I couldn't recover it.

It did not do the hydrostatic damage a Barnes 95 gr X bullet at 3K fps out of the 243 does but it did make a heckuva wound channel. Still got the carcass frozen (and stripped of meat, we don't waste) in the barn, I'll see if I can get some pics of the holes in and out if I can motivate my old butt to go out in the cold.........

But THANK YOU!

More I hang out here more I like CAST.........................

[Thumbcocker]

Sixshot and .44 Man: Gentlemen; it is an honor to share cyberspace with you. Those of you who have been there and done that are a source of information and inspiration to the rest of us. These posts of yours are a priceless source of real world sixgunning experience. We appreciate them. Good hunting stories and solid information about what works. It don't get no better.
I always wanted to thank Ross Seyfried for the series of articles that he did in G&A about hitting things. I never had an actual mentor on shooting basics and those articles really helped a lot. Never got to thank Mr. Seyfried for his helpful information but I can thank you all.

[sixshot]

changeling, I always cast slugs as soft as I can get away with, that is, I don't want leading, but I find you can run my alloy mentioned above quite fast in almost any gun without losing accuracy or leading the bore.
The problem with the term "hard cast" is that the old timers like Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton & many others used this term to describle cast slugs that were only 10-12 BHN most of the time, in that day & age it was considered "hard" also you have to remember that there weren't any sixguns early on that were capeable of running heavy slugs much over 1200 fps, like Elmers early 44 special loads with his "Keith" bullet.
Nowdays, when one of the commercial casters or gun writers refer to "hard cast" they are talking 18-22 BHN or even harder, this is what gets most new casters into trouble & they end up swearing off cast bullets because they buy "hard cast" & shoot them in midrange loads, they end up getting gas cutting because the bullet fails to seal the bore & their barrel leads after a few shots. The reason of course is, they were shooting too slow......not too fast!
Casting is fun & its a never ending learning process for all of us, even those of us who've done it for 40-50 years or more, there's really no secrets or voodoo attached to casting, you just have to match the bullet to the cylinder throats & drive them at a velocity thats correct for the bullet hardness (BHN)
OK, softnose cast, what you are doing is bonding a HOT piece of pure lead to a hot base thats usually wheelweight alloy, once this takes place you cannot pull the 2 pieces apart, they are basically welded together.
This article was in a Handloader magazine some years back, some members will know what issue I'm talking about, I have it somewhere! First you decide what velocity you are wanting to achieve, then you also decide if you want lots of expansion, or if you want some expansion, this can take a little experimenting but not much, most will use too much lead in the beginning & get lots of expansion.
The great part is you can make it foolproof, the expansion of a quality, jacketed slug with the penetration qualities of a hard cast, yes, it will give you both, everytime on any animal at any angle. Again, usually not much lead is needed. I used a cut down 380 case, that is, I've shortened it with my trimmer, I get my mould hot, I pour in a small amount of pure lead using a handle I've soldered onto my litttle 380 case & quickly top it off with hot WW alloy & then water quench the little gems, now you have a bullet capeable of maximum velocities.....if needed & yet you get wonderful expansion......if needed.
I just set my hot bullet mould on a flat surface, dip the 2 alloys, one in each hand & pour first the pure lead & second the WW alloy. I have a 5 gallon bucket of water between my feet with a rag pushed down inside the water 6" or so with a small hole in the center of the rag, drop the bullet into the bucket, it lands on the rag, rolls to the center & drops to the bottom, by then its cool enough not to deform.
Like I said earlier, if you want to make a legitimate deer gun out of a 357 magnum revolver, add 25-30 grs of pure lead to the nose for initial expansion & let the hard back part penetrate straight & deep, oh yes, it works!
Want to light up some ground hogs or rabbits, cast a good pure lead nose on that 357 magnum & watch them evaporate. I do like to keep the pure lead part forward of full diameter, that way no pure lead comes in contact with the rifling. Others will chime in here.

Dick

[2shot]

Sixshot;

DUH ! You mention the part of the equation that I was missing with cast bullets. While most of my shooting has been with Federal Cast Core I have also used my own RCBS 270 45 home cast bullets and 41 cal bullets from many suppliers plus my own. I know that the Federals are hard and they do like 44man says and zip right through deer without doing much damage and I want to say that the bullets I get from comercial casters are a bit on the hard side also. I use a hard alloy for all my higher velocity loads too and maybe it's time to stop that practice or use the soft nose technique like you mention.

I have taken a deer with my Model 60 1 7/8" barrel 38 special using my Lyman 195 grain mould and cast from 30-1. The shot was only about 6 feet from the muzzle straight down and the damage was unbelievable for a bullet traveling maybe 700 fps! At that time I should have put 2+2 together and figured the damage was from the soft alloy and not the heavy weight of bullet for caliber.

Back to the melting pot to make up some new softer slugs for my 41. With the up coming deer hunt I have it will indeed be interesting to see the dfference between hard cast and a softer alloy.

Now if someone could only let me know where I could purchase a mould for the WFN in .410 I would be all set.

Thanks for all the info from everybody that contributed to this thread.

2shot

[Mack Heath]

Sixshot,

Are you sure you're not thinking about the article Seyfried did for G&A in June of 1989? It was entitled "Stopping Power Secret: Cast Soft Nosed bullets". I don't recall one like it in Handloader

[44man]

Hard, 20 to 25 BHN, is where I get my accuracy but they only work on deer from certain calibers and velocities. Go too fast or too small and softer boolits are needed. That is where the soft nose really does good because water dropped WW for the rest of the boolit keeps the accuracy.
I have found that the boolit with a good meplat needs no expansion in the .44, .45 and .475 but if I had a .357 or .41, I would use a soft nose. I also need one in the 45-70 BFR because of the 1632 fps velocity. I refuse to slow it down to the point a hard boolit works because it is just too accurate to fool with. To slow a 45-70 to .45 Colt velocities is kind of silly anyway. Why carry the huge, long range revolver when I can just grab my Vaquero?
Now a little bit of a soft nose on the boolits for the .44, etc will work just fine, you just want to limit expansion.
Sixshot makes some good points and store bought boolits are sometimes too hard along with being under size. Under size is the worst and is a cause of leading and accuracy problems. Then most have a bevel base!!! He IS using a boolit close to mine with water dropped WW metal for the back of his boolits.
If you start to soften the whole boolit you will start to skid them in the rifling and will need a gas check to stop the skid or go to a slower powder. Even then you will get fliers and leading if you push them too fast. Even worse is a soft boolit and a fast powder. A hard, store bought, under size boolit and fast powder is much worse. Develop full pressure in the chamber and gas squirts around the boolit before it even gets in the barrel.
I do not want any boolit expansion in the gun at all, boolit fit is where it is at and enough hardness to take the rifling without opening gas paths at the base.
This is another advantage of a heavy boolit because you just can't drive them too fast and a nice load of slow powder starts them more gently even though they have more inertia, they take the rifling and you can actually make them a little softer. But what I can get away with in the .45 just does not work in the 45-70 so I need a gas check if the lead is softer. A hollow point or a soft nose and hard base would still be best.
There is a lot to it and you must tailor the boolit to the caliber, powder, velocity and size of the animal.
So if I say I have good results with my hard boolits on deer from, say my .44, don't expect to do it with a .357 or a 30-30. Also don't expect a soft, fast expanding boolit to work good from the .44. Of course you don't want that with the .357 or 30-30 either.
Pure lead boolits and balls with black powder has always been the best for any animal however modern smokeless powders changes everything.
I suppose if you expand .44 cases so they don't size the boolit, shoot black powder with a pure lead boolit, they would drop every deer. My Old Army with round balls is just devastating on deer. Range and accuracy does not equal my other revolvers though.
Just keep an open mind, try all kinds of stuff, see what works for you.

[sixshot]

Hello Mack, no it was in Handloader magazine, I'll find it later today when I get back from signing up for medicare (I'm an old fart) I usually keep it pretty handy because this has came up before.
OK, I found the article, its in Handloader #222, its the April 2003 addition.
The most interesting thing I've found about doing these softnose cast is that you can taylor them to expand at any velocity you decide on.

Someone ask about a WFN for the 41, get one from Veral at LBT.

Dick

[44man]

Hello Mack, no it was in Handloader magazine, I'll find it later today when I get back from signing up for medicare (I'm an old fart) I usually keep it pretty handy because this has came up before.
OK, I found the article, its in Handloader #222, its the April 2003 addition.
The most interesting thing I've found about doing these softnose cast is that you can taylor them to expand at any velocity you decide on.

Someone ask about a WFN for the 41, get one from Veral at LBT.

Dick
So true and I love the amount of work you have put into them. I think us cast shooters can alter boolits to far outstrip store bought jacketed stuff.
My big problem is that only an animal can show results. We have shot into everything ever thought of and it is never the same.
Those that look for the largest mushrooms and the fastest boolits need to rethink some things.
Keep sharing your experience and work.
I was in that trap long, long ago when a bullet blew up a gallon jug and I could catch it in a few jugs. I said "WOW" what would this do to a deer? We could not use a revolver for deer back then in Ohio and when I was able to finally hunt with them, I found the bullet was just wrong, had no penetration and would be real bad with a very large animal. I was also into the "energy dump" thing when I was young only to find it is a pipe dream after real experience. Muzzle energy is a myth too. Book figures went out the window along with all the other printed theories.
Bullet/boolit work inside the animal and two holes is where it is at no matter what gun is used.
Might be the reason I love the .475 so much, no work needed at all for any animal. It works on deer or an elephant. Remember I am kind of lazy! :mrgreen:
Now instead of blowing up one jug and catching a boolit, I blow up four and split two more, yet penetrate 14 jugs. I need to add more jugs to stop the boolits.
Yet meat damage is very low, how much better can it be?

[Mack Heath]

Sixshot,

I found the article you were talking about. It is available online in the back issues section of Handloader in anyone is interested.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=974&magid=71

Sixshot, if you take a quick look at it, does the original have any more photos than the online version?

[Frank]

It's hard to tell looking at bloody animals how good a boolit is shooting. That's why I like to see the targets. So far hard boolits look like they're hitting the mark. [smilie=l:

[44man]

It's hard to tell looking at bloody animals how good a boolit is shooting. That's why I like to see the targets. So far hard boolits look like they're hitting the mark. [smilie=l:
That is the hard part. The best accuracy that can be had, yet a functional boolit.

[sixshot]

Mack, I think thats all the photo's that were in the article. I use 2 seperate pots now, a small one that sits on a one burner coleman stove, this is for the pure lead, you only need a small amount. My regular 20 lb Lyman holds the wheel weights. I use 2 dippers instead of the bottom pour on the Lyman, the reason is, you can dip both metals at the same time & add them quicker than if you ladle the lead & then top off with the bottom pour spout. Hope that makes sense.
Just keep the pure lead forward of the ogive or full diameter part of your slug so that the hard metal rides the rifling rather than the soft lead.
You can PM me for a phone number if we need to go over any part of the precedure, its really very simple.......& very effective!
I think I mentioned earlier but jackrabbits or rock chucks simply evaporate when hit with one from a 32 maggie, a Ruger 30 carbine or a 357 maggie, its impressive.

Dick

[44man]

So long ago, I won't say:shock:, I was pheasant hunting and had my .44 on my hip. I seen a sitting rabbit in real thick stuff and it was close to me, facing me. I figured I could take the end of the nose off with the .44. I had softer boolits back then.
I was sprayed with dirt and rabbit parts. The hole in the ground looked like an A bomb was dropped! All I got was two back legs from the rabbit, nothing else left. :veryconfu
One day while playing around at a pond I was on a log over a cut about 10-12 feet over water. I spotted a turtle about 8" in diameter under me. I shot it and was soaked instantly, kind of backed off and looked up. The turtle was a good 15 feet above me and I reached out and caught it as it fell. There was only a rim of shell about an inch wide left. The entire center was gone.
Those days gave me an appreciation for the .44 mag that all the .357's never gave me and it has never left, I still love the .44 and will never be without one.
I was shooting the old flat top to over 400 yards back in 1956 for fun. Did a lot of 200 yard shooting. 429421 with 2400 was all there was. I could never cast and load fast enough for all the fun we had.
Then I found the BFR .475 and now have a hard time picking what revolver to take deer hunting so I rotate them.
Then my eyes don't work good anymore so I had to go to a red dot.
A lot of water has gone under the bridge and I have learned a lot about revolvers and how to make them shoot. I sold my deer rifles, never liked them anyway, too easy. Now I might take out a muzzle loader here and there in that season but the revolver is always the only choice in gun season. Having been an archer all of my life with well over 230-260 deer kills with a bow, just how much easier is a revolver? [smilie=s:

[ole 5 hole group]

Well 44Man, you must really love vension, have a very large family or both!!! I'm almost as old as you and if I added up all my deer killed with a bow, muzzle loader, rifle, revolver, shotgun and ran over with my pickup, cleanly missed and/or wounded but couldn't recover with the aforementioned firearms, I wouldn't even come close to the numbers that you've taken with the bow alone. I'm on the last pack of breakfast sausage as of this morning from a deer harvested last year.

[Changeling]

It's amazing how much or lives have paralleled. I don't have near the deer you have taken but I have some mighty interesting stories I could tell.
Like the one about your turtle with a revolver, Well once a local farmer called me and wanted to know if could shoot some of the turtles in his fish pond because they were eating everything! So I went over to see him (never shot a turtle before) and was carrying a 220 swift with HOT 50gr bullets. The farmer and I got to talking and he took me down to show me the pond. As we were talking a turtle rose up from the bottom about 25 feet or so and the farmer said theres one shoot him. So I did, there was a turtle rain that was unbelievable. I mean parts/blood/shell was falling every where. That old farmer was grinning from ear to ear and said, you got him, I'm sure you got him, I just started laughing my head off and finally said, yes sir hes dead. BTW, I got permission to hunt his whole farm for that shot. I used to drop by there on sunny days and sit up in there yard and blow those turtles to kingdom come. He was one happy man, so was I.

[GLynn41]

I do not have all the pictures --or experience-- but here are the details on 4 deer all with a .41 and a 41/44
1. spike 6.5' Blackhawk .41 mag- 225gr lyman 410459 Keith type-- velocity 1200 or so -- 55 long steps - one shot through the heart - hole in the heart was about thumb size --and mine measures about .7 a few hops and down meplat about .250 -- .41 in and out of the hide
2. Wounded doe recovery -- 5.5" Redhawk 240gr LWNGC .320 meplat from an LBT mold--holes splashed out on impact at 30 steps -- we chased her for about 2 hours -- the LBT bulets made around a an .8+ measured hole mv was 1360
3. doe mountain mold 255 LWNGC .4 nose and .33 meplat 30 steps 1.1 measured in and out lungs blown up-- few steps and down 1360 mv
4. doe 40 steps same bullet as number 3 she went stiff legged and dropped -1.2" hole in and out mv of 1360
I have some others but they were with J bullets
I have been hunting with a 410459 Buckshot HP'd for me but no joy -- deer are hard to find after our die off last year -- did get one with a 25.06 but while she will eat good not as much fun as a cast boolit in a hand gun will try one more time maybe as the season ends this weekend-- have finally learned by my experience and you guys I do not have to have an extra heavy weight boolit- nor do I have to have the fastest mv ----good thread

[Thumbcocker]

Where I deer hunt 70 yards is a long shot and most are 20-40. It was getting to where my scope sighted slug gun was not much of a challenge. Revolvers are just so much more interseting. I enjoy having a revlover along when just woods tromping, shroom hunting, or even cutting firewood. The neat thing about a revolver is that you wear it, a long gun has to be carried.

When I was younger I squirrel hunted with a Ruber Mark II target model with a 6 1/2 barrel and people thought I was nuts. A lot of folks hunted them with scatterguns (unrifled horations). I was not out to get my limit, one or two pistol shot squirrels meant more to me than a trtuckload of scatter gunned ones. I think that sixgunned venison tastes better too.

As far as deer killed with handguns; all that I have shot have been with Keith type boolits either solid or hp. The solids are cast of acww and the hp's of 5050 ww pb. The only drt's I have gotten is when the spine or both shoulders are hit. Most deer run or walk off 30 yards or so and then either lie down or fall down. I am no where near Sixshot or .44 Mans numbers. I have not really noticed that much difference in killing power between solids or hp's. Most were loaded over 18.5 of 2400 or more recently 22 of IMR 4227.

[44man]

That's great, I also use a Mark II for squirrels. We have tons of gray's here but I only want enough each year for one big pot made with wine, vegies and morel shrooms.
I am getting ruined by shooting the big revolvers though and the little .22 is getting awful hard to hold still! Think it might be old age? :veryconfu
I sliced up a roast today for jerky and it is soaking in everything I could find except the kitchen sink. I am going to smoke/dry it with apple wood.
I usually grind the meat and use a jerky shooter but the grandson wants strips instead. The jerky shooter makes good stuff for us old critters though, easy chewing! :violin:

[leadman]

You are right about the jerky shooter 44 man. That is the only way I will make it now. Even my sons like it this way now.

[Changeling]

I have a Ruger Mark I bull barrel that I really like and have killed a few squirrels and a lot of ground hogs with but the trigger is absolutely awful! Its so bad that on the squeeze you can't help loosing concentration on sight picture and thinking trigger!!!!!! You know the rest. I tried a Wolf spring set but noticed no difference. It needs a good trigger smith.
I had an awesome gunsmith when he wanted to be, that I was told died, however I was recently told that was BS, but I haven't been able to find him. Name was James Poole.

[44man]

I should be able to fix the trigger for you.
The jerky is almost done. I smoked it with one pan of apple and one pan of cherry. I moved it to my dehydrator and it tastes real good.
The grandson will be disappointed though, it is so tender it melts in your mouth. Tender doe meat!
I wonder if I can duplicate it, never wrote anything down. Just grabbed a little of this and a little of that.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I wonder if I can duplicate it, never wrote anything down. Just grabbed a little of this and a little of that.

Ha! That's what I do! Then my wife want's me to make more! Never turns out the same, but it is fun trying!

[44man]

The grandson ate his whole bag last night. He came out twice and told me I really hit it right. :Fire:
Overnight in the fridge made it nice and chewy.

[Whitworth]

The grandson ate his whole bag last night. He came out twice and told me I really hit it right. :Fire:
Overnight in the fridge made it nice and chewy.

Hey Jim, save some of that for me! Please!:grin:

[runfiverun]

great now dicks on here telling y'all how we cast here.:bigsmyl2:
james.. dick, is saying the same things we have discussed before.
the soft nose thing is mainly a good idea with the smaller calibers,i really don't think anything over 10mm needs it, if the alloy is right and the speed is decent.
not much else i can add to whats been said.

[44man]

I am having doubts about some calibers! :mrgreen:
Whitworth was out and we shot his little, bitty .500 Linebaugh from the bench. (48 oz) I can't shoot groups with the fierce recoil and my palm still hurts today. I did not flinch or move but even a half pound difference in grip pressure can change barrel rise so much it gets frustrating. I think he shot over 30 rounds, the tough son of a gun! He has not told me if he could sleep last night or if he had to soak his hand in ice water all night. :bigsmyl2:
I won't tell you about the .50 Alaskan except I would not shoot it . :drinks:
Shooting these guns is like shooting with one hand, there is no way to keep the left hand on the gun, they just come out of it. The .475 is my limit. :Fire:

[runfiverun]

great here i was debating a 45 colt or a 475/480.
i'll pass on the 50ak. too
think i'll stick to the357max, 375 or 445 super,or the 41 hunter,sept i think the wife is gonna claim that one.
anyone got a scope mount for a dan wesson??

[Changeling]

I should be able to fix the trigger for you.
The jerky is almost done. I smoked it with one pan of apple and one pan of cherry. I moved it to my dehydrator and it tastes real good.
The grandson will be disappointed though, it is so tender it melts in your mouth. Tender doe meat!
I wonder if I can duplicate it, never wrote anything down. Just grabbed a little of this and a little of that.

Well I'm sure not going to turn down any one fixing that trigger, I really like the revolver but that trigger has really held me back.

Do you need any cured apple wood for smoking, I have more than I'll ever use, actually never tried it. All clean, stored in my barn for the last few years.

[Bass Ackward]

I believe that we always go at this from the wrong angle. Most often we want the BIGGEST meplat that is possible. And how do we know? Let's make it simple.

Most people understand shotgun logic. So much of a certain size shot, at so much velocity and the maximum amount of shot is limited by the gauge and case length. Although more complex because we need penetration, single projectile hunting should be thought of in the same logical manner. And it can be.

When a bullet is launched, the game animal doesn't understand how wide, what caliber, what velocity or how far or how hard. A bullet after launch either works, does too much, or it doesn't do enough. The deer don't just fall over because it was a 45-70. All calibers will all work within their limitations if you knew how to do it. Isn't that pretty simple?

If your launching or sighting system limits you to 100 yards or less, then attempting to work out a combination that works to 300 yards is counter productive because you will be too powerful up closer and lose on the short end which is your bread and butter. If an 80% meplat in 357 can work with some possible combinations, then that's only 63% in 45 caliber and it goes down from there as you go up in bore diameter. So how much weight and meplat do you need before you risk going over?

The real goal should be to define what constitutes a killing shot if you are not capable of reaching hydrostatic shock (rifle 2600 fps) levels. Then once you define that goal, find a medium that allows you to translate what you see to meet that goal that will work over several calibers and bullet styles.

From my experience I have defined a killing shot as complete penetration from the angle of interest that produces a minimum of a 1/2" hole. 3/4ths is better and just as effective as 1 1/4". Over 1 1/4th", and you begin to create too much shock that will stimulate adrenalin production and will be counter productive.

I realize that there are all kinds of mediums to use for shooting and all kinds of calibers and meplat sizes. I can only tell you about what I have used that has worked for almost 30 years on several hundred deer and up. Standard handgun calibers, or calibers accepted as handgun calibers can will likely just have a maximum effective range but bigger caliber guns can lose it on the short end. Exceed those limitations from either range perspective and you won't produce the .... working size hole.

How I do this is very simple. Line up just 5 milk jugs. What happens beyond that is of no importance unless you are into buffalo or elephant. Shoot those jugs up close and far to establish your working ranges so "YOU KNOW". If you bust the first two jugs and penetrate the next three, you will cut a killing size hole in game where shots have to penetrate up to two feet of tissue. IF you bust the third or more, then you are too powerful for that distance. If you take angles that involve bone, place some bone of approximate size in front of the first jug and have at it. Interpret it the same. And it's just that simple because the jugs are just like game. They don't understand calibers or launching system types or meplat widths. Just energy production and penetration.

Then you can adjust your meplat width or hardness or velocity levels to produce those results at the ranges YOU want to shoot. A 357 is just as effective as a 45-70. It just has a smaller range window (or more restrictive shot angles) that it will produce the minimum size hole. But a 45-70 can go over if you are too aggressive too especially on the short end.

Learn how to be effective without going under or over. In essence, you adjust the load parameters of your gun and load for what you are using until it does work, or ..... you discipline yourself to accept the range limitations of what you have.

This method works for establishing good killing loads for all calibers and launching systems be they rifle or handgun. Bigger game and more penetration, use more jugs. But those hole sizes work for all game animals I have shot to date.

[44man]

Well I'm sure not going to turn down any one fixing that trigger, I really like the revolver but that trigger has really held me back.

Do you need any cured apple wood for smoking, I have more than I'll ever use, actually never tried it. All clean, stored in my barn for the last few years.
Yes I could use some. Thank you for the offer.