Who needs a JUDGE?? RUGER BH SNAKE SHOT!!!

[Bullshop Junior]

All testing was done with a Ruger New Model Blackhawk 45 convertible

After Trimming down my cracked 45 Colts to the length on 45 ACPs, I got to thinking that I could cut down 30/06 cases to fit the chamber of my 45 Colt the same way that ACPs fit the chamber, head spacing on the mouth. This way I would have a longer case, and could shoot hotter loads.
Well that did not work. The area in front of the chamber is tapered on my 45 colt cylinder, and the cases did not head space well.
Then I got to thinking (Never a good sign) that I could cut the 30/06 cases to the length of the cylinder, plus the thickness of the rim, I could have cases the full length of the cylinder, like the Nagant pistol. I ended up with a case that was 1.720" long.
But they did not want to go in the cylinder. So I got out my dads 44/40 dies, and started slowly adding a neck to the case, until it went in with just the rim of the 30-06 (From now on called 45 RM (Ruger Magnum)) sticking out. I then put in some reddot (5gr) and fired a round ball (.415") out of it to form my brass. The result was very interesting.

Any way, then I took a 410 wad (I don't know what kind - They where in a zip lock in our garage - The are heaver then 1/2 oz. I think that a 1/2 oz. wad with no base filler will work perfect)) and cut it to fit in the case with the top just below the mouth of the case. It sat on top of 4.8gr (.7 cc) of reddot.
The wads fit in the cases perfect.
I filled it with shot (mixed) and put a styrofoam wad over the top, and crimped it with a lee factory crimp die.

The result was the all new 45 RUGER MAGNUM SHOT SHELL!
It patterned very well.
This was out of my 45 colt cylinder.

The only problem is getting the shoulder right. I have to fit each case to the chamber. Once I fired it, I did not size it, and they worked fine, but it was difficult to form them.
So then I tried full length sizing a 45 RM in the 44/40 die. The result fit perfect in my 45 ACP cylinder. I used the same load and every thing. This worked well. I had no miss fires because of head space problems, like I had with the 45 colt cylinder.
The problem here was that my 45 ACP cylinder is shaped like a hour glass, and case are very difficult to eject, so I am staying with the colt cylinder.

Any way, that was my test. I hope to experiment more in the future.

Any opinions?

[kingstrider]

Sorry but you lost me without pics.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I thought of the same kind of thing with my 357 Mag, I got me some 357 MAX cases, trimmed to length, but ran into the chamber throat, and I didn't have a way of necking it down handy, and my concern also was about the wad fitting through the neck, but would it cover the powder?

I was gonna use cardboard, but I assume you mean Styrofoam like in a "to-go" box from a restaurant?

Glad yours worked out!

How many snakes do you have up there? Ours are only out about 6 months of the year . . .

[StarMetal]

I dunno....I think if you ran over a snake with this Judge he'd be more then dead.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/assets_c/2009/10/1969_wangersgto_f34_pontiac_sl_1-thumb-717x478.jpg

:bigsmyl2:

Joe

[Flash]

Doesn't anyone use shortened 410 shells? Cut the shell to length, soften the plastic over a flame and seat it in the chamber, let it cool, load and shoot. Can't get any easier.

[S.R.Custom]

Sounds like a lot of work. I dunno how much your time is worth, but mine is such that I find these a bit more economical with respect to the temporal resources...

http://tinyurl.com/yegzw8y

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I dunno....I think if you ran over a snake with this Judge he'd be more then dead.
:bigsmyl2:

Joe

Yeah, but . . . not all snakes are smart enough to lay in the road . . .

[Bullshop Junior]

Sorry but you lost me without pics.
I will try to post some pics.

[Flash]

Sounds like a lot of work. I dunno how much your time is worth, but mine is such that I find these a bit more economical with respect to the temporal resources...

http://tinyurl.com/yegzw8y

Once the shells are formed, I can load them several times and pretty quick. If I was worried about the value of my time, I'd just buy factory ammo and shoot a Bond Arms Derringer.

[Bullshop Junior]

I thought of the same kind of thing with my 357 Mag, I got me some 357 MAX cases, trimmed to length, but ran into the chamber throat, and I didn't have a way of necking it down handy, and my concern also was about the wad fitting through the neck, but would it cover the powder?

I was gonna use cardboard, but I assume you mean Styrofoam like in a "to-go" box from a restaurant?

Glad yours worked out!

How many snakes do you have up there? Ours are only out about 6 months of the year . . .
Yes, them foam trays.

How about a 32/20 die on the max brass?

[Bullshop Junior]

I dunno....I think if you ran over a snake with this Judge he'd be more then dead.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/assets_c/2009/10/1969_wangersgto_f34_pontiac_sl_1-thumb-717x478.jpg

:bigsmyl2:

Joe
That is way to fancy for me. Only two wheel drive too.......

[Bullshop Junior]

Doesn't anyone use shortened 410 shells? Cut the shell to length, soften the plastic over a flame and seat it in the chamber, let it cool, load and shoot. Can't get any easier.
I don't have any 410 shells, but I have thought about that before.

[Uncle R.]

I dunno....I think if you ran over a snake with this Judge he'd be more then dead.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/assets_c/2009/10/1969_wangersgto_f34_pontiac_sl_1-thumb-717x478.jpg

:bigsmyl2:

Joe

Oh my - those were the days!
I'd trade half of my guns away for one of those - just like that.
<GRIN>
Uncle R.

[Bullshop Junior]

Once the shells are formed, I can load them several times and pretty quick. If I was worried about the value of my time, I'd just buy factory ammo and shoot a Bond Arms Derringer.
Well now.....

My dad has a bond arms and my colt with my loads patterns way better.

[Bullshop Junior]

Sounds like a lot of work. I dunno how much your time is worth, but mine is such that I find these a bit more economical with respect to the temporal resources...

http://tinyurl.com/yegzw8y
I don't have that kind of money.
$6.50 for 25 = $0.26 ea, plus shipping.

These did not cost me a dime.

[Dale53]

I did the 30'06 "thing" with my Colt Model 1917 .45 ACP nearly sixty years ago. It worked well but was a pain in the tuckus to load.

However, I DO appreciate snake loads and have carried them (particularly while back packing in the mountains of Kentucky and Tennessee and the hills of Eastern Ohio). I long ago settled on Speer shot capsules in .38/.357, .44 Spec./Magnum, and .45 Colt.

I don't concern myself with the cost (just try to buy at the best price possible) as I don't need many in a year. I don't go around killing snakes at random. I only get "threatened" on an occasional basis. If the snakes are not around people and are not a danger to me, I "live and let live". If they (poisonous snakes) are around people or are a danger to me - they GO!

Dale53

[Pepe Ray]

Hi B.J.
IIWM, I'd pass on the '06 brass and scrounge up some 444 Marlin or .307W 0r .356W cases to adapt. If the rims aren't a perfect fit they are adjustable. And head spacing shouldn't be as troublesome.
Pepe Ray

[Ammohouse]

The Speer shotshells work great in my guns.

Just thinking here, wouldn't it be easier to make shotshells out of 454 brass?

[9.3X62AL]

Interesting project, Daniel.

Ya must be worried about those Siberian Snowbank Vipers that swim the Bering Strait and have now infested Alaska. We have a similar problem in the lower desert near the Salton Sea--the infamous Stick Lizards, which are a smaller and faster version of the venomous Gila lizard.

These critters have adapted to the ultra-hot summers in the sand dune environments they favor by carrying a branch from a creosote bush wrapped in their tails. They run across the super-heated sands at full speed, even in air temps of 120*-125* F. When their feet can't stand the heat any longer, they stab one end of the branch into the sand, and climb up the branch until their feet cool down.

Back in the days before they were added to the Endangered Species List, the 22 Hornet was considered the perfect caliber to hunt them with. It was considered very poor form to take them when roosting in paloverde trees, or when at rest in a branch-end cooling their heels. It is from the Stick Lizard's habit that we derive that same expression.

They will charge if cornered.

Alas, I never had cause to try snake loads on a Stick Lizard. My department caused so much grief to any deputy who shot a snake that I was obliged to adapt other methods. Road flares work well, just don't throw them at snakes in dry brush. You'll likely get the snake, but the fire authorities get very bent out of shape about the collateral damage. No, that wasn't learned through personal experience of my own--but I do know a little, and can often guess the rest.

[bigdog454]

Haven't tried it, but what about 303 brit brass. I know some use it for the .410.

[mellonhead]

I have done a similar thing except I used 444 brass cut to 1.730. I then sized it in a 270 Win. full length sizing die. Put my powder in, a felt wad, shot, then layed a 41 caliber gas check on the end and crimped it. After it was shot I just sized it again and reloaded like before.

Toby

[Dale53]

Al, are things THAT slow in California?.:mrgreen: I about peed my pants (Siberian Snowbank Vipers, indeed)!! However, that Stick Lizard is a dangerous dude, for sure!!:veryconfu.

FWIW
Dale53

[Bullshop Junior]

The Speer shotshells work great in my guns.

Just thinking here, wouldn't it be easier to make shotshells out of 454 brass?
454 brass is not that much longer then 45 Colt brass, and does not come and where near the end of the cylinder.

[Bullshop Junior]

Haven't tried it, but what about 303 brit brass. I know some use it for the .410.
Not fat enough at the web.

[Bullshop Junior]

Interesting project, Daniel.

Ya must be worried about those Siberian Snowbank Vipers that swim the Bering Strait and have now infested Alaska. We have a similar problem in the lower desert near the Salton Sea--the infamous Stick Lizards, which are a smaller and faster version of the venomous Gila lizard.

These critters have adapted to the ultra-hot summers in the sand dune environments they favor by carrying a branch from a creosote bush wrapped in their tails. They run across the super-heated sands at full speed, even in air temps of 120*-125* F. When their feet can't stand the heat any longer, they stab one end of the branch into the sand, and climb up the branch until their feet cool down.

Back in the days before they were added to the Endangered Species List, the 22 Hornet was considered the perfect caliber to hunt them with. It was considered very poor form to take them when roosting in paloverde trees, or when at rest in a branch-end cooling their heels. It is from the Stick Lizard's habit that we derive that same expression.

They will charge if cornered.

Alas, I never had cause to try snake loads on a Stick Lizard. My department caused so much grief to any deputy who shot a snake that I was obliged to adapt other methods. Road flares work well, just don't throw them at snakes in dry brush. You'll likely get the snake, but the fire authorities get very bent out of shape about the collateral damage. No, that wasn't learned through personal experience of my own--but I do know a little, and can often guess the rest.
No Al, no snow bank vipers. The danger here is meat eating hares.

[MT Gianni]

Thanks for the info Daniel, I was guessing Ptarmigan.

[BruceB]

Actually, I used shot loads from a .44 Super Blackhawk to kill a few ptarmigan up in the Arctic.

The cases were .303 British, shortened to cylinder length. The rims had to be thinned a bit from the FRONT...chuck 'em in a drill or lathe and use a file to thin 'em down. Maybe grind a "safe edge" on the file to avoid cutting the case body. Doesn't hurt to cut the rim diameter a bit, too.

I made a good-sized flare on the mouth, big enough to center the case mouth in the chamber throat. This also eased the insertion of the (home-made)card over-powder wad. The case was then filled with #7.5 or #8 shot, which was removed from factory-loaded 12-gauge shotshells (the only source I had). Another card wad was placed in the case mouth and secured with Elmer's or similar glue. The shot size was sometimes marked on the wad, sometimes not...it didn't really matter.

For the number I used, it wasn't worth using them twice. That required a way to size the neck and move back the "shoulder" that formed on first firing. It killed ptarmigan like lightning out to 15 yards or so, and would be murderous on venomous snakes at close range.

[Bullshop Junior]

Thanks for the info Daniel, I was guessing Ptarmigan.
Them too......

[MtGun44]

I'd see if .303 Brit or .30-40 Krag brass would work, you'd be headspacing on the
rim and this should make your life a lot simpler.

Ptarmingan would be easy with these. SERIOUSLY stupid birds, but hear they are
good to eat.

Bruce, Gianni - sorry, posted before I read your posts. Didn't mean to step on toes. Read the
first one and then jumped to the end to comment. Shouldn't do that.

Bill

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Yes, them foam trays.

How about a 32/20 die on the max brass?

I only have 38/357, 9mm, 270 dies to play with for now . . .

So . . . the neck did not bother the wad going in? or coming out? Would it completely cover the powder?

[9.3X62AL]

Al, are things THAT slow in California?.:mrgreen: I about peed my pants (Siberian Snowbank Vipers, indeed)!! However, that Stick Lizard is a dangerous dude, for sure!!:veryconfu.

FWIW
Dale53

Pretty much, Dale. Saltwater fishing is largely over, quail and chukar season is winding down, and trout season is 3 months away plus. 'Tis truly the winter of our discontent.

[Bullshop Junior]

I only have 38/357, 9mm, 270 dies to play with for now . . .

So . . . the neck did not bother the wad going in? or coming out? Would it completely cover the powder?
The neck was the perfect diameter for the wad, and it did cover the powder.

Lee dies are cheep.

[leadman]

460 S & W might be long enough. I played with these in a Contender 45 Colt/410 to move the boolit closer to the forcing cone.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Lee dies are cheep.

So am I!:grin:

[OBXPilgrim]

I knew a retired Spec Forces Major that custom loaded ammo in his "retired" days that used to load using the RCBS 45ACP shot dies. It basically formed a 'soft' shoulder on the case & the case was about the same length as a 45ACP case with bullet in it. The 410 wad was seated, the shot filled, but a .310" lead ball set on top & the case closed up on it. The load wouldn't cycle a 1911 action, but it would feed in hand ejecting the empty.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=30536&highlight=carpenter+bees

[yondering]

Another vote here for using 444 Marlin brass. Daniel, for your purposes, it's just 30-06 brass with a rim, which makes easier to use in a revolver.

I've done the same thing, and also found the best groups with .410 wads. I tried some with no wad, just a cardboard over-powder wad, and got a lot of leading. I've also made some paper shot "packets", which worked OK, and held more shot, but were hard to make and not any better than the .410 wads.

Instead of a gas check to seal the case mouth, I use a card wad and a heavy roll crimp on the brass. The card wad can be stamped from a primer box, using an empty case. Deprime the case first so you can use a pin or allen wrench to poke the wads out.

I also found that I had to stick with very light loads, or the fired cases would jam up the cylinder.

[yondering]

I knew a retired Spec Forces Major that custom loaded ammo in his "retired" days that used to load using the RCBS 45ACP shot dies. It basically formed a 'soft' shoulder on the case & the case was about the same length as a 45ACP case with bullet in it. The 410 wad was seated, the shot filled, but a .310" lead ball set on top & the case closed up on it. The load wouldn't cycle a 1911 action, but it would feed in hand ejecting the empty.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=30536&highlight=carpenter+bees

I use these dies too. If they won't cycle a 1911, he's doing it wrong. My loads cycle just fine. I also use a card wad instead of the .310 lead ball, see my post above. It's fun to shoot skeet with the 1911; throw with one hand and shoot with the other.

[dualsport]

RCBS makes a form/trim die for making .45acp shotshells that load from the mag and cycle the gun. You can start with 30-06 brass or any of that family. Never had to shoot a snake(too destructive of the meat) but real fun to shoot, especially moving targets. A loaded round is about the same length as a hardball round with boolit.

[theperfessor]

Hi BS Junior -

Too bad you can't find a spare .45 LC cylinder. It would make loading shot loads a lot easier if you had a straight-bored cylinder. You'd have to use a rimmed case of some sort of course, but from some of the posts it seems like there might be a lot of possibilities. Maybe swap something for one here and get a machinist to bore out the chamber throats.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[WARD O]

A long time ago I experimented with a similar idea - I used cut down 30-30 brass in my 41 mag. Just shortened it enough to fairly match the cylinder length and then fire formed them and load them with powder, wad, shot and another wad. They were crimped in some other die and worked pretty darn good.

Look around - maybe you can find a rimmed case that matches up fairly well with your 45 cylinder....

Ward

[geargnasher]

I've done this shotshell thing in the .45 Colt too, quite fun to dink around with. In my New Vaquero I can fit .410 shotshells cut down to cylinder length. The plastic hull fits the tapered throats snugly and the space behind the throat doesn't matter much, very little pressure even with the shotshell primer. I had no way to reload the shotshell primers so that was a no-go. I've heard of rim interference with the index star, but that wasn't the case in my small-frame gun.

I've tried a bunch of things, but the CCI shot capsules will get the work done until I can find cylinder-length brass to form. One of the things I learned was that maximum shot volume gets the best density, and that means full-length brass and no .410 wads. I used thin cardboard wads with regular brass (used flat-rate usps box material) over the powder and shot and sealing wax (carnauba) to cap it off to good effect, also used cloth patch "shotcups" twisted over the shot and sealed with beeswax (Overpowder wad used too), worked better than anything I tried so far and virtually no leading. disadvantage is low shot volume.

I'm going to try this again with the .30-'06 brass, I have a bunch of scrapped cases from reforming culls from another project.

Gear

[HiVelocity]

I figured I'd throw in my .02 worth.

I've made my own shotshells for years. Mine work well on water moccasins here in SC.

In any straight walled case. I like to use the .357 magnum for starters. In a primed and sized case, add a small powder charge [I'll come back to this later].

On top of the powder charge insert a .35 caliber gas check, cup up. Add your shot [back to this later too]. On top of the shot, insert another .35 gas check cup down. Crimp. These shotshells are superb on almost anything from beer cans to feral dogs close range. Now, about the powder charge. You'll have to play with this formula for awhile to figure out what works well for you in your particular gun. Variables are caliber, powder charge, shot weight, and barrel length.

Some in various combinations work well, some not so well. You'll have to adjust everything to your particular handgun. All in all, out to about 15 feet, these work well on anything that may bite you. Best is in larger calibers.

Good Luck.

HiVelocity in SC

[geargnasher]

One better, for what you're doing, replace the overshot gas check with a round ball of the same caliber as the normal boolits for the gun, remove enough shot to just barely roll crimp the ball over the shot. Nice writeup by the Quinns at Gunblast.com, verified deadly on a Tennessee snake, too.

I'm trying to maximize the amount of shot, and I'm using 7 1/2-8 shot, so filling the cylinder with it is still the goal.

Gear