22 LR derimming die made

[dragonrider]

Ok so I got the derimming die made.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/22%20LR%20derimming%20die/th_IMG_0276.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/22%20LR%20derimming%20die/?action=view&current=IMG_0276.jpg)

However it takes quite a bit more effort to push them through than I thought. I don't think my Lee Challenger press is going to be up to the task. So I am going to dust off my Rockchucker II and see if it is any easier, well I guess it won't be easier but it is certainly a stronger press.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/RockChucker%20Press/th_IMG_0265-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/RockChucker%20Press/?action=view&current=IMG_0265-1.jpg)

I did manage to get a few swaged, in this pic you can see the one in the middle has a hole in it near the top. but the process worked, that's all I am looking for at the this time, also managed to punch right though two of them, a little annoying but I supposed that is going to happen.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/22LR%20swaged%20cases/th_IMG_0263.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/22LR%20swaged%20cases/?action=view&current=IMG_0263.jpg)

For lube I started using RCBS case lube, seemed to work but then I tried some STP it seemed to make it a little easier. What are you all using for lube??
I do not intend to swage 22 cal bullets at this time I am going to rework the die in order to swage jackets to make .243 bullets. So what I have done so far has been a learning experience. Next job will be to make the bullet swaging dies.

[ETG]

Set your die so the derimming occures at the bottom of the stroke where you have the biggest leverage advantage. Also did you anneal the cases before derimming. I put mine in the oven on the self cleaning cycle for an hour and they are a lot easier to derim and not near as many punch throughs.

[plumber]

I snap right through about 1 out of 50. It goes a lot easier if you have the die up high, so you just have the case in the die at the end of the stroke.
I lay all my clean cases on a cookie sheet and spray them down with Dillon case lube, then dump them in a plastic cereal jug with a lid and shake them up.

[hcpookie]

A few tibits I've taken away from the other .22 LR conversion threads that may be useful to you:

- you may have too thick a punch. The punches ideally should be around .195" or slightly smaller.

- The end of the punch may be too sharp and cause the cuts. Try a punch with a bit more bevel at the tip to see if it helps.

- The inside of the die may be rough enough that its causing enough drag to drive up the pressure when you press it through. This also causes brass shavings from the cases. Polishing the inside of the die can't hurt.

- The taper of the die opening may be too sharp. I found it MUCH easier to punch them through when I used a dremel fine grit grinding wheel (the green ones) followed by the buffer wheel to round off the "shoulder" of the opening. That and the smaller tip size made the biggest difference for me.

- I for one have personally had better luck with non-annealed rounds. People report better performance annealing either before OR after, so I think it depends on the equipment. Definitely clean them first - the dirt and powder residue REALLY builds up fast! This dust could be affecting the process. Annealed cases that have scale buildup can also cause gunk to build up. Covering the cases in foil apparently helps prevent scale.

I use the Imperial die sizing lube and continually reapply it after a few dozen rounds. Makes a big difference in the friction. I use a pipe cleaner doubled over and twisted up, and just roll it over the top of the lube and into the die opening.

HTH
- Jerry

[scrapcan]

try anhydrous lanolin. It is a good lube also.

The other thing is how long is your sizing section in the die? The actual section doing the sizing doe snot need to be real long.

[CWME]

The punch should be .195, what should the sizer be? .223 or .224? for 22 cal?

[plumber]

The punch should be .195, what should the sizer be? .223 or .224? for 22 cal?

.218, you want to draw down as you de rim then you swage up to .224 when you seat the core.

[CWME]

Thank you for the measurement, Going to see if I can make one on the lathe this week.

[CWME]

Got the punch made out of a scrap part off a machine at work. Not pretty but I got it to .196 tonight. I left enough meat on it to polish it up some more. Polishing will be tomorrow. Had to try it so I ran some cases through my Lee .225 push through die. See what you are all saying about drawing it down more to get rid of the rim.
I am also very suprised at the leverage it takes...

New here so never posted pics... hope this works...

[ANeat]

Thats nice C-dubya. I was playing around today and made one with a drill bushing like Rat-man suggested in another thread.

Also used 5mm drill rod for the punch as suggested, initial tests were pretty good

[CWME]

Funny you mentioned that 5mm drill rod... I just ordered some [smilie=p:

Still looking for the bushings.

Turning that small a dia is nerve racking to say the least! I was expecting the bit to grab and ruin the whole deal. Did that on the first one I tried to make yesterday. I never parted off the stub that is on the bottom because I didn't want to ruin the part. Going to turn the base to fit the press and then drill it out to fit the drill rod punch. Hold it all together with a set screw I guess.

[ANeat]

I was originally thinking about using a neck sizing bushing but when I checked on the drill bushings they were a good bit less expensive.

I had to put a bit more gradual taper into the entrance of the bushing to get it to work correct but other than that it went pretty well.
There was a small radius that just sheared the rims off instead of ironing them out.

Yes I plan on using a setscrew to hold the punch, probably grind a small flat on it

[jcunclejoe]

Might put in 2 set screws at 90 degrees apart and if you put a small flat(s) on the punch it will really help hold it. You don't want the punch pulling out of the holder. A little bit of dome on top of the draw punch will help to bow the center of the case up and ease the rim into the die.
Have fun.
Joe

[CWME]

Joe and ANeat, good idea with the flat on the punch. I can put it together and seat the set screw to find out where it lands and then file the flat. This would put the set screw in a "pocket" so it can't be pulled out.

Where are you getting your drill bushings from? Does HD or a hardware store have them? 7/32??

Thanks for the tip on rounding the punch head Joe.

[ANeat]

I ordered my drill bushing from Mcmaster Carr. Yes it was 7/32 .2188


I got a removable type with a flange, I think if I was doing it again I would just get a press fit style and make it where its a slip fit to a shoulder in the die

[mecoastie]

I ordered 5mm drill rod and the bushing yesterday. Dug around in my old dies and found an interesting one that I an going to try to seat the bushing in. Need to machine a piece to slip into my press abd hold the drill rod.

[dragonrider]

Annealing??? I knew therre was something I forgot, :oops: so I annealed a few today and the process was considerably easier, except now they stick to the punch so I will need to reduce the punch diameter a bit and try again. Justr another piece of the puzzle.

[ANeat]

Ive heard of guys doing it either way, annealing before de-rimming or after. My brass was grabbing the punch a little without annealing but the die would shuck it off when I withdrew the punch.

Ill probably try annealing some and see how it goes

[CWME]

Dragonrider, Looked back at your pictures and noticed that you turned your punch without the tailstock in place. How did you keep the thing from bending away from the bit?

Sorry for hijackin your post here a bit...

[jcunclejoe]

I make sure to lube the punch every two to three jackets, I just rub lubed fingers across it as I slip the 22 case over the tip of the punch. It helps to keep them from sticking. Might help you too.
Joe

[dragonrider]

Very light cuts, very sharp tool., that was actually a punch for a Lee ram prime, it was 250 diamterr so therre was not much to remove.. have two of them so sacrificed one for the cause

[dragonrider]

Joe that mite help, I'll try it. thanks

[dragonrider]

After reading about it here somewhere I cleaned the cases in ultrasonic cleaner, worked way better than I thought it would. Will do them again after swageing to remove lube.

[Rat-Man]

It sound like a lot of work is being done on the .22 swaging dies.

I have uploaded some pictures of my bushing sizing die and how it is put together. This is the bushing and die parts disassembled.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=260&pictureid=1746

This link is to the album with other pictures that might be of some help to someone trying to build their own.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/album.php?albumid=260

[CWME]

Thanks for posting those pictures! Nice work!

My skills are not up to inside threads yet. Still can't get external threads down on a consistant basis. So I ordered a 1/4 long shouldered drill bushing from Mcmaster Carr(thanks for the link Aneat). Was thinking if I could get a die body threaded to fit the press then I could drill it out to press in the bushing. The shoulder could rest/press against the bottom of the die body. If I got the hole too big I could use a set screw to hold it in. That way the only critical machining I have to do is the threads.
Not had a whole lot of luck with my machining projects to date so keeping it as simple as possible helps. Always in a rush with an infant in the house. Trying to squeeze in a 3-4 hour job(I am a novice alright) to 20 mins doesn't bode well for good results:violin:

[Rat-Man]

I have pressed inserts into a holder for other items and it works just as well and is a lot faster. As a matter of fact I have several items that are made from grade 8 fine thread bolts from the hardware store no threading involved.

[ANeat]

Here is mine, the die gets screwed into the press, drill bushing inserted from the bottom and the cap screwed on.

I think Rat-mans die with the drop in bushing from the top would be better but this was what I had.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=153&pictureid=1753

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=153&pictureid=1752

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=153&pictureid=1754

[ANeat]

I was "testing" the Lee classic cast and the handle holder wasnt up to the de-rimming task ;)




http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=153&pictureid=1751

[Rat-Man]

Aneat

Great looking job on the die. The only suggestion that I might have for you is that your punch looks way longer than mine.

Mine is only about 1.5 inches in length, this allow me push each case almost thru the restriction but not quite. The next one pushes the last one out, and this allows using the very last of the press motion that has the greatest mechanical advantage.

The exact position is a try and adjust thing until you find the sweet spot of ease and stripping the de-rimmed case off of the punch reliably.

[deltaenterprizes]

Great work guys, thanks for the pics.

[scrapcan]

nice work guys, I am in the process of trying to source parts from local industrial supplies. I may have to just order form mcmaster-carr. You know you spend three weeks trying to keep business local, just to find out you are better off just ordering the damn stuff yourself.

[CWME]

ANeat, GREAT JOB ON THAT!! [smilie=w:

Thanks for posting those pictures. Your punch is just what I had in mind to try to make.

Have you made the other dies needed to finish a bullet?

[ANeat]

Yea Rat man I plan on shortening the punch some. I got a quick lesson on the mechanical advantage thing last night ;)

I didnt show it in the pic but I have the top of the die turned down so the Lee container (like their push thru sizer) fits over top and I just let the brass push thru and fall over into the container.

Thanks CWME I havent made any other dies yet. I actually have a set ordered from richard corbin along with a press but Im trying to get a little ahead of the game.
Plus a little cabin fever I guess

[bohica2xo]

OK kids, if you are breaking presses & complaining about the force required... you are doing something wrong.

I have derimmed pounds of cases on a 20 buck Lee aluminum "C" press without failure. Anneal your cases before derimming. This makes them easier to work, and makes the jacket a uniform hardness.

B.

[CWME]

Rat-Man, never thought about using a bolt that is pre-threaded... DUH!

Grainger has 3' sections of 7/8-14 rod, B7 steel, Tensile strength of 125,000 Rockwell C35 for $36.65, part #4RDP4. I might grab some of that to work with if and save my O-1 stuff for something else.

[shooterg]

I thought the Lee Classic Cast had all steel linkage that would be hard to break .
Shouldna done that just derimming .22 ! Ouch - maybe Lee will replace ?

[ANeat]

I dont know if they would replace it or not, I already fixed it and changed the pivot point to improve the leverage.

Yea Bohica, I read somewhere to anneal after de-rimming, It de-rims pretty easy now with the pivot point moved but Im going to anneal some and try it.

Seems like I kept hearing that guys were punching thru ones that were annealed first, but plenty here have good results.

[Rat-Man]

I always anneal the brass and then clean it before de-rimming. I think the only cases I have punched thru are ones that I haven't annealed first.

[Radio Flyer]

I started turning .22 lr into jackets in the 80's with a kit.

I always wondered if a die with a different profile would take less force, here are some drawings.

This could be a multi die set where the jacket could be turned into a pointed FMJ.

The rounded base would flatten back in the core seating step.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/Step1.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/Step2.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/Step3.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/Step4.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/Step5.jpg

[ANeat]

Welcome Radio Flyer, Thats interesting, I guess the only sure way would be to try it.

One thing I noticed, the die I have really irons out the wrinkles and actually reduces the diameter of the entire case.
Im not sure if it matters really

[Radio Flyer]

Welcome Radio Flyer, Thats interesting, I guess the only sure way would be to try it.

One thing I noticed, the ring die I have really irons out the wrinkles and actually reduces the diameter of the entire case.
Im not sure if it matters really

It was a thought I have had in the past, I from time to time and depending on brand often send the punch through the .22 LR case ripping off the end leaving the case around the punch.

[ETG]

Rat-Man, never thought about using a bolt that is pre-threaded... DUH!

Grainger has 3' sections of 7/8-14 rod, B7 steel, Tensile strength of 125,000 Rockwell C35 for $36.65, part #4RDP4. I might grab some of that to work with if and save my O-1 stuff for something else.

CWME
Just order standard threaded rod (I ordered mine from McMaster-Carr). If your using a drill bushing the die body doesn't really need to be anything other than mild steel. You can drill out the rod and press in the bushing. I tacked a washer over the end of the rod to keep the bushing from pulling out - got just a tad to big for a good press fit. I used a 7/32" bushing and a 5mm haedened dowel pin as the punch. You will want to taper the opening of the drill bushing to make it easier and not punch through the bottom of the case.

[ANeat]

Yea the threaded rod would work nice, just get the basic stuff, I think about $17.00 from Mcmaster (3 ft) like ETG said.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#98838a037/=5a28bu

[dragonrider]

Not to change anyone's mind about prethreaded rod but, I have use a lot of in the past and have neverr found it to fit satisfactorily. It is always a sloppy fit and the material seldoms cut well. I prefer to use good hot rolled or O1 steel and cut my own threads. Takes longer and it cost's more but it fits well and looks good.

[dragonrider]

Last night I went back out to the shop and did some more polishing on my derimming die after haveing tried annealling some cases and finding that they now stick to the punch and won't come off. Turned the punch down a few thou to .194" and tried again and found that they still stay on the punch and are now much more difficult to get off. So after polishing the die out a couple thou I tried again without annealling and it works so much better, almost effortless to push through the die. Tried annealling again and still sticking on the post so I won't be annealling anymore.

[Rat-Man]

Tried annealling again and still sticking on the post so I won't be annealling anymore.

I don't know what your punch finish is like but I have found that they have to be extremely polished our you will have that problem.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=260&pictureid=1741

The top punch is new and works well. The bottom one has been used alot and started having cases stick.

I lube the punch with my fingers as I put each case on the punch, and almost never have an annealed case stick. The new punch is drill rod that was turned then hardened.
After it cooled I polished it down to final diameter going down to 1500 grit wet/dry on a steel backing.

[Smokin7mm]

I always run through the derim die before annealing. I found the same thing in that they stick on the punch if they are annealed first. I think what happens is when they are annealed first there is no springback of the case to release from the punch.
Bret

[bohica2xo]

It all depends on the die clearance.

A properly made die & punch should work with annealed cases, or raw cases.

It should be a simple push through operation, and the case should strip from the punch as the punch is retracted & the case mouth contacts the back side of the die. Even an annealed case springs back enough to strip if the die is right.

B.

[Willbird]

One way to sometimes turn stuff down without a lot of flex is to do it all in one cut, it will work sometimes for some things. One shop I worked in used swiss turn machines, they pretty much have to turn long slender things all in one cut due to the way they work...and they held some very close tolerances doing so.

You can also buy what are called "gauge pins" which might be able to be used as the punch portion...already hardened and ground to high precision and polish

the one example I have seen had a head on the end like a nail head however...that went up inside the case.......so you could not use a gage pin for that kind of shape.

Bill

[jcunclejoe]

Welcome Bret, about time you started sharing your knowledge here.
Joe

[Smokin7mm]

Thanks Joe,
Lurked for a while then decided to join. So how are things going? Ever get the lathe up and running making the 22 swagging dies? Still interested in the 270 idea I talked with you about before.
Bret

[CWME]

No one had the threaded rod in town so I scrapped that idea. I installed a new adjustable tool post on my Grizzly lathe and kept the half nut engaged and Viola, threads... I walked away from this machine 7 months ago out of frustration. Glad I finally got it down.
I bored out the sizing portion of the die to 5.5 MM. Flipped it over and bored the top out to 1/4. I used a center drill to make the shoulder leading into the die.

I still have some more polishing to do inside the die and waiting on my 5mm drill rod to come in. So I didn't get to test it out yet. If the die body can't stand up to the sizing I have a drill bushing ordered that I can install.

[ANeat]

Looks good, you shouldnt need to keep the half nut engaged with standard threads but I wouldnt worry about it if it works....

Get a good polish on the sizing part and I think it would hold up just fine.

[JohnM]

The only time I’ve had trouble with RF cases sticking on the punch or blowing the heads off is when I’ve used Elley brass. It seems to be harder and more brittle. I like Lapua brass the best and is all I use now….

John

[Willbird]

No one had the threaded rod in town so I scrapped that idea. I installed a new adjustable tool post on my Grizzly lathe and kept the half nut engaged and Viola, threads... I walked away from this machine 7 months ago out of frustration. Glad I finally got it down.
I bored out the sizing portion of the die to 5.5 MM. Flipped it over and bored the top out to 1/4. I used a center drill to make the shoulder leading into the die.

I still have some more polishing to do inside the die and waiting on my 5mm drill rod to come in. So I didn't get to test it out yet. If the die body can't stand up to the sizing I have a drill bushing ordered that I can install.

For a short thread it is actually faster I think to leave the half nuts engaged and reverse the spindle to go back for another pass. But even if you have not fully figured out which TPI can be engaged on which line of the thread dial (the grizzly chart IS quite complicated) then just mark ONE line with a sharpie and always engage on that same line to be safe. That is how you have to engage if you are making a fractional TPI usually such as 1-1/2 threads per inch.

Leaving the half nuts engaged gives you more time to think about things that might be more important, when I true the barrel threads on a rifle action I leave the half nuts engaged.

It also does not help on many smaller Grizzly lathes that the slowest spindle speed is a bit faster than optimum for threading...I am going to put a 3 phase motor and a vfd on mine to slow it down a bit.

I have the G4003 myself, and it's slowest speed is 70 rpm, which is pretty fast for threading to a shoulder.

Bill

[Liseo]

Guys
Excuse my bad english, i live outside USA

I just place a order for 224 bullet making dies with Blackmon.
To learn the tricks of bullet making, I think is best begin with inexpensive 22 LR cases, and as I learn, buy J4 jackets.
Will a Redding bushing TiN coated( adapted to a reloading die) with a respective rod be a good alternative for derimming to a kit from Corbin?

If so, what sizes for bushings and rod?

Thanks

Liseo

[ANeat]

Liseo welcome, on mine I used a 7/32 drill bushing and 5mm drill rod for the punch.

I had considered a bushing type reloading die but the drill bushings are less expensive.

[Sarg]

Liseo,

Yes what ANeat said ... save the money on the TiN. There is not near enough wear to affect steel drill bushings.

Sarg

[Ervin]

Help please. What is a drill bushing? Does anyone have pictures & dimentions?
Thanks, Ervin

[ANeat]

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=drill+bushing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=F7rtS5DJLITaMZH1lPEL&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CDMQsAQwBA

[odies dad]

I had good luck swaging out case heads using a Lee .224 bullet sizing die. I made a longer skinnier ram about .220 or a little less and found out a rounded top worked the best. I chamfered the inlet of the die a bit and the cases aren't any harder to ram through than when sizing a bullet and seating a gas check. I squirt a little One Shot on about every 5-8 cases, but it doesn't seem to make much difference. Once I rounded the top of the punch, I quit blowing through the tops.
I'm trying to figure out how to make a nose forming die now. I think I'm getting close. I have figured out lots of ways not to make it.

[richbug]

Help please. What is a drill bushing? Does anyone have pictures & dimentions?
Thanks, Ervin

A drill bushing is a hardened bit of steel that is used as a guide for a drill bit when using a fixture for drilling.

The ones I have are 1" long, 13/32" dia, .218" ID, with a rim around the end that is a bit bigger in diameter.

[jixxerbill]

was bored last weekend so i decided to give a 22 derim die a try.......this is for my blackmon press, the punch mounts in the ram using the nut used to normally hold the punches in the top. the die mounts in the top so u just push thru and go to next one they feed out the top of the main die.....http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd360/jixxerbill/DSCF0276.jpg i really have no use for the die at the moment lol so if someone wanted to test drive them id be glad to lend them out ....bill

[Daywalker]

Very nice Bill! Too bad I don't have a blackmon press to try them out for ya lol...

[No_1]

Bill,

Could you provide the I.D. of the die and the O.D. of the punch?

R.

[ANeat]

Im not sure what Jixxer did but 7/32 for the hole (.21875) and 5mm for the punch (.19685) works real well

[Liseo]

Im not sure what Jixxer did but 7/32 for the hole (.21875) and 5mm for the punch (.19685) works real well


Hi guys

I never saw any dies for derimming the .22 LR, but if one use the .218 ID die, the jacket formed will not be undersized? I know that it will expand in the core seating operation, but anyway seens that it will not expand that much.
As i said before, just asking, i´m not doubting anyones words.:oops:
My intention is to make bullets for informal target shooting, as close as possible to BR bullets ( I dont hunting)
How much a bullet from a .218 die will measure ,after ready , at the base?
Im ready to order the tools, so i think is good double check the dimensions, as I don´t want spend twice.
At first, i thought about buying the drill bushing( or the NiT coated bushings used to calibrate the neck from Redding) with .222 to .224 diameter, but now I think is better listen to your advice.
Hope all understand my concerns.


Thanks

[ANeat]

You want the jacket to be undersized at that point yes. When you seat the core it will expand out to the correct size, (224)

They will even expand out to 243 or 25 caliber if you need.

Never hurts to double check

[jixxerbill]

Im not sure what Jixxer did but 7/32 for the hole (.21875) and 5mm for the punch (.19685) works real well

ditto !!!!

[BofKGB]

I'm just starting to look into this. I am assuming if you try to use a Lee .224 Sizing Die, like others have, you will end up with a cup with an OD larger than .218". It will probably be between .224" and .226". How will these cups interact with the core seating die and will that cause a problem when trying to reach final bullet size?