480 Ruger loading questions

[Vance in Ak]

Questions for the experienced...
Several questions actually.
#1 Lil Gun vs H-110
Is there a difference in the sharpness of the recoil produced by these two powders if the bullet weight & velocity are the same (does that have something to do with "impulse time" or some such?). I've been an H-110 user but can get a good price in Lil Gun right now. I'm working primarily with Lee's 400gr bullet.

#2, for anyone that's loading the Lee 400gr in the 480, are you loading to the 1st crimp grove (longest OAL) or the 2nd? I would assume that since it fits the SRH cylinder the 1st one would be best to keep pressures lower?

#3 My 1st loads for the 480 I loaded 24.5gr H-110 behind a 370gr cast. Velocity ran 1bout 1167 @ 35*ish. The Hodgon manual calls for 1348fps with 24.0 gr out of the same 7.5" barrel.
One person suggested that maybe the low velocity is due to my WW primers (only ones available in the area). Any ideas???

Guess that's it for now.

[44man]

Questions for the experienced...
Several questions actually.
#1 Lil Gun vs H-110
Is there a difference in the sharpness of the recoil produced by these two powders if the bullet weight & velocity are the same (does that have something to do with "impulse time" or some such?). I've been an H-110 user but can get a good price in Lil Gun right now. I'm working primarily with Lee's 400gr bullet.

#2, for anyone that's loading the Lee 400gr in the 480, are you loading to the 1st crimp grove (longest OAL) or the 2nd? I would assume that since it fits the SRH cylinder the 1st one would be best to keep pressures lower?

#3 My 1st loads for the 480 I loaded 24.5gr H-110 behind a 370gr cast. Velocity ran 1bout 1167 @ 35*ish. The Hodgon manual calls for 1348fps with 24.0 gr out of the same 7.5" barrel.
One person suggested that maybe the low velocity is due to my WW primers (only ones available in the area). Any ideas???

Guess that's it for now.
Lil Gun burns very hot and is harsh on a gun. I love 296, then H110.
The WW primer is fine. I use Fed 155's.
I feel you are loading too hot for the .480. You are looking for .475 velocities. My .475 only gets about 1340 fps with the 400 gr boolit.
With .480 brass in my .475 I only use 23 gr max with the Lee 400 gr. The 370 gr should not take a full gr and a half more powder.
Consider the .480 as a .475 special. The velocity you get is a moot point and accuracy should be what you are looking for.
I doubt many animals will complain about your 1167 fps.
None of those book figures are right or at least very rarely are they right. I would not look to match them.

[500bfrman]

I doubt many animals will complain about your 1167 fps.


I think a lot of animals would complain, if they could.:bigsmyl2:

[outdoorfan]

One person suggested that maybe the low velocity is due to my WW primers (only ones available in the area). Any ideas???

Guess that's it for now.

I have found the WW primers to produce significantly less velocity than the CCI 350's.

[44man]

I have found the WW primers to produce significantly less velocity than the CCI 350's.
They might, I have never compared them since accuracy is much more important to me then velocity.
I will test them later this summer when I have more time.

[outdoorfan]

I did some tests just a couple of weeks ago in the .45 Colt, 5.5 barrel, 345 grain LBT WFN, 21 grs H110, CCI 350's & WLP's.

CCI350's = 1,109 fps

WLP's = 1,055 fps

Accuracy at 25 yards with open sights and rested was too close to the same to say that one was better than the other. However, the WLP's were tighter by a small margin.

I remember having similar results in the .480 back when I was shooting that beast. Would have never gotten rid of it if I had been making my own boolits back then.

[Vance in Ak]

Lil Gun burns very hot and is harsh on a gun. I love 296, then H110.
The WW primer is fine. I use Fed 155's.
I feel you are loading too hot for the .480. You are looking for .475 velocities. My .475 only gets about 1340 fps with the 400 gr boolit.
With .480 brass in my .475 I only use 23 gr max with the Lee 400 gr. The 370 gr should not take a full gr and a half more powder.
Consider the .480 as a .475 special. The velocity you get is a moot point and accuracy should be what you are looking for.
I doubt many animals will complain about your 1167 fps.
None of those book figures are right or at least very rarely are they right. I would not look to match them.


44man, From published data it doesn't seem I'm pushing the 480.
With the 370 cast bullet (the load I gave the FPS for) they list a min of 24.0 & a max of 26.0gr of H-110. 24.5 is obviously well withing that data. But, as I said I'm near a full 200fps under their FPS (for 24.0) with 0.5gr more powder.

I'm not looking to make a 475 out of the 480, but I would like to be able to run the 400gr Lee at at least 1200 (Hodgon lists 1328 as max with H-110 & 1337 as max with Lil Gun.)
End the end accuracy will be more important than velocity, but I do want reasonable velocity.

[454PB]

Lately there has been a lot of discussion concerning Lil'Gun causing excessive heating and forcing cone erosion in revolvers.

I've been using Lil'Gun and experimenting with .357 magnum, .44 magnum, and .454 Casull comparisons to H-110/WW296. My focus has been accuracy, velocity, and "perceived" pressure (since I don't own any pressure measurement equipment). I haven't really paid much attention to heating or erosion, since nothing indicated it was any different from the heating and erosion apparent with H-110/WW296.

I've seen dire warnings that as little as 100 rounds of Lil'Gun fueled ammo can damage a gun. If that's true, I'm far past that point, and my guns have escaped that damage.

What I have found is that Lil'Gun provides about 5% higher velocity with the same or less perceived pressure, and equal or better accuracy.

The other interesting discovery is that in my uses, Lil'Gun seems to change comparative burn rate in larger cartridges. The bigger the case, the quicker it burns.

When the weather improves, I'm planning to do some testing with an infrared thermometer and see if it actually heats the gun more than H-110/WW296.

[44man]

[QUOTE=Vance in Ak;763970]44man, From published data it doesn't seem I'm pushing the 480.
With the 370 cast bullet (the load I gave the FPS for) they list a min of 24.0 & a max of 26.0gr of H-110. 24.5 is obviously well withing that data. But, as I said I'm near a full 200fps under their FPS (for 24.0) with 0.5gr more powder.

I'm not looking to make a 475 out of the 480, but I would like to be able to run the 400gr Lee at at least 1200 (Hodgon lists 1328 as max with H-110 & 1337 as max with Lil Gun.)
End the end accuracy will be more important than velocity, but I do want reasonable velocity.[/QUOTE
I use 26.5 gr with the 400 Lee in my .475 and any more will stick brass. With a 420 gr boolit I need to drop to 26.
I don't know about the 370 gr but it still sounds high.
Maybe more fellas can chime in because I don't have a .480.

[Bucks Owin]

I did some tests just a couple of weeks ago in the .45 Colt, 5.5 barrel, 345 grain LBT WFN, 21 grs H110, CCI 350's & WLP's.

CCI350's = 1,109 fps

WLP's = 1,055 fps

Accuracy at 25 yards with open sights and rested was too close to the same to say that one was better than the other. However, the WLP's were tighter by a small margin.

I remember having similar results in the .480 back when I was shooting that beast. Would have never gotten rid of it if I had been making my own boolits back then. Interesting. I was doing the same experiment the other day during a break in the soggy weather. My load was 25.0 grs W296 under a 250 gr XTP. Gun is 7.5" Blackhawk. With CCI350, av vel was 1320. With a WLP, av vel dropped to 1217 but velocity was more uniform and more accurate. (1.5"@ 25) The temperature was in the high 40's and the ammo stayed out the night before to "cold soak". I want to test a little more with this but it would seem that a 350 lights the fire better, at least in cooler temps, (with an increase in pressure) but WLPs are more uniform and therefore accurate......FWIW, Dennis :Fire: (Oh BTW, like everyone else who saw the published dope that Hodgdon put out regarding LilGun in the .357 mag a couple years ago, I had to rush out and get some to try. I couldn't get within nearly 300 fps of the claimed velocity in a 6" M19. Now that I hear of the LG horror stories, I've stayed away from it. 110/296 still reigns king IMO)

[sagacious]

...
Is there a difference in the sharpness of the recoil produced by these two powders if the bullet weight & velocity are the same (does that have something to do with "impulse time" or some such?). I've been an H-110 user but can get a good price in Lil Gun right now. I'm working primarily with Lee's 400gr bullet.
Vance,
I have not used Lil Gun recipes for the 480, so I cannot offer any insight on this question.


#2, for anyone that's loading the Lee 400gr in the 480, are you loading to the 1st crimp grove (longest OAL) or the 2nd? I would assume that since it fits the SRH cylinder the 1st one would be best to keep pressures lower?
Pressure is your friend, especially with WW296. There is a world of difference between "pressure" and "too much pressure." The SAAMI max pressure for the 480Ruger is 48,000psi. When carefully assembling and loading sub-max loads, one may reasonably expect that he maintains a comfortable gap between the working pressures of sub-max loads and the maximum SAAMI pressure.

As I noted in another thread, I use the top crimp on the LEE 400 with 21grs 296. I worked up to that load using the top crimp. I use WLP primers. As I recall, the 21gr WW296 load with the 400gr bullet was the max published lead load I had when I started loading the 480. I had no intention of loading to max velocities, but I was well aware that WW296 works well when loaded to it's full potential and pressure. I kept range-testing/velocity notes as I worked up. My cases don't stick at 21grs.

Lately a whole lot more data has become available for the 480. Currently the Hodgdon/Win published max is 22.3grs WW296 and a 405gr CPB.

I have seen many times where the 480/475 discussion turns into a velocity contest. How can that guy get that velocity with his 480?..... he must be lying... I have no intention of loading the 400gr LEE to 22.3grs of WW296. If I had some unquenchable thirst for as much velocity as I could get, I'd be working-up to 22.3grs and seeing what happened. As it happens, 21grs WW296 gives me what I want with my gun and my loads.

That your starting loads give 200fps velocity less than the published loads doesn't suggest any cause for concern. Such disparities are common. Further, several published sources-- such as Hodgdon/Winchester, Lyman, and Hornady-- list almost identical top-end velocities (approx 1350fps) with for both the 480Ruger and the 475Linebaugh. How can the published max velocities be the same, if the powder charge differs by 4 grains? Disregarding all of that testing data would be the very definition of unwise. Either many separate sources consistently express the same data errors, or different revolvers may well give different velocities (bearing in mind that at least one of the above-mentioned data sources uses a universal receiver for it's data). That different guns give different results is entirely normal and expectable. It might perhaps be to the delight of some 480 owners, and be a cause of consternation for some 475 owners, but that matters not one whit. One must confront the results as one finds them, and not change the facts to match opinion or bias.


#3 My 1st loads for the 480 I loaded 24.5gr H-110 behind a 370gr cast. Velocity ran 1bout 1167 @ 35*ish. The Hodgon manual calls for 1348fps with 24.0 gr out of the same 7.5" barrel.
One person suggested that maybe the low velocity is due to my WW primers (only ones available in the area). Any ideas???

Guess that's it for now.
The underlying reason for your questions is clear to me. But virtually nothing conclusive or definitive can be determined by the analysis of a single sub-max reloading recipe. Anyone who suggests so is suffering from a misapprehension. You need to load more recipes or load different charges. Your statements also lead me to believe that you're exceedingly anxious about excessive pressures and somewhat leery of heavy recoil. There is nothing at all wrong with that, but both those factors will likely prove to be a detriment to load testing, especially if you want a little more velocity.

I agree with 44man that no animal is going to notice a small velocity disparity, and I likewise agree that trying to reach an arbitrary velocity is not in all cases the most prudent or realistic exercise.

You state that you're working primarily with the LEE 400, but I only see test results for the 370gr cast. Have you tested the LEE 400 in your gun, and can you post those results? You're seeking answers based on sub-max recipe results, but no one here can conclude anything about max potential loading recipes or velocity from one sub-max recipe, and far-ranging conclusions based on that limited data should be treated with a large measure of reservation and circumspection.

Hope this helps. :drinks:

[44man]

Vance,
I have not used Lil Gun recipes for the 480, so I cannot offer any insight on this question.


Pressure is your friend, especially with WW296. There is a world of difference between "pressure" and "too much pressure." The SAAMI max pressure for the 480Ruger is 48,000psi. When carefully assembling and loading sub-max loads, one may reasonably expect that he maintains a comfortable gap between the working pressures of sub-max loads and the maximum SAAMI pressure.

As I noted in another thread, I use the top crimp on the LEE 400 with 21grs 296. I worked up to that load using the top crimp. I use WLP primers. As I recall, the 21gr WW296 load with the 400gr bullet was the max published lead load I had when I started loading the 480. I had no intention of loading to max velocities, but I was well aware that WW296 works well when loaded to it's full potential and pressure. I kept range-testing/velocity notes as I worked up. My cases don't stick at 21grs.

Lately a whole lot more data has become available for the 480. Currently the Hodgdon/Win published max is 22.3grs WW296 and a 405gr CPB.

I have seen many times where the 480/475 discussion turns into a velocity contest. How can that guy get that velocity with his 480?..... he must be lying... I have no intention of loading the 400gr LEE to 22.3grs of WW296. If I had some unquenchable thirst for as much velocity as I could get, I'd be working-up to 22.3grs and seeing what happened. As it happens, 21grs WW296 gives me what I want with my gun and my loads.

That your starting loads give 200fps velocity less than the published loads doesn't suggest any cause for concern. Such disparities are common. Further, several published sources-- such as Hodgdon/Winchester, Lyman, and Hornady-- list almost identical top-end velocities (approx 1350fps) with for both the 480Ruger and the 475Linebaugh. How can the published max velocities be the same, if the powder charge differs by 4 grains? Disregarding all of that testing data would be the very definition of unwise. Either many separate sources consistently express the same data errors, or different revolvers may well give different velocities (bearing in mind that at least one of the above-mentioned data sources uses a universal receiver for it's data). That different guns give different results is entirely normal and expectable. It might perhaps be to the delight of some 480 owners, and be a cause of consternation for some 475 owners, but that matters not one whit. One must confront the results as one finds them, and not change the facts to match opinion or bias.


The underlying reason for your questions is clear to me. But virtually nothing conclusive or definitive can be determined by the analysis of a single sub-max reloading recipe. Anyone who suggests so is suffering from a misapprehension. You need to load more recipes or load different charges. Your statements also lead me to believe that you're exceedingly anxious about excessive pressures and somewhat leery of heavy recoil. There is nothing at all wrong with that, but both those factors will likely prove to be a detriment to load testing, especially if you want a little more velocity.

I agree with 44man that no animal is going to notice a small velocity disparity, and I likewise agree that trying to reach an arbitrary velocity is not in all cases the most prudent or realistic exercise.

You state that you're working primarily with the LEE 400, but I only see test results for the 370gr cast. Have you tested the LEE 400 in your gun, and can you post those results? You're seeking answers based on sub-max recipe results, but no one here can conclude anything about max potential loading recipes or velocity from one sub-max recipe, and far-ranging conclusions based on that limited data should be treated with a large measure of reservation and circumspection.

Hope this helps. :drinks:
That was nicely said!
I have a chronograph but I find it is useless for finding what shoots. I do all of my load work without it and only take it down if a friend comes over and want's to check his loads. I have loads for my revolvers so accurate I can't shoot good enough to make use of them and I have no idea how fast they are. Others have been checked but ONLY after accuracy work is done first. I could care less how fast my boolits are.
Some of my loads are close to max but only because that was where accuracy was found. I use load data for minimum and maximum loads only, I ignore the velocity part.
Velocity and muzzle energy figures are useless and not worth fooling with. Make the boolit work and animals die with regularity, it is always more important to hit them right.
I try all the time but it is hard to turn fellas away from book figures and high velocities.
Please guys, make your guns accurate first, then go hunting.

[Vance in Ak]

Thanks guys!

Let me share a couple of things.
1st, primary reason for question #1. e don't have a huge powder selection locally, & when I can get H-110 (My long time favorite) I usually pay close to $29 per pound. There is a local store with an 8# keg of Lil Gun for $155. That's a whole lot cheaper so I'm interested. I also know different powders produce a different recoil "feel" at the same velocities. Snappy vs big push etc. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands so I like big push vs sharp slap.

#2, I was just wondering what differences people have seen. Hate to reinvent the wheel. If someone was seeing pressure problems with it loaded short & changed to the long OAL & all was good I'd like to know.

#3, if the WW primers are dropping speeds that much over others, I'd like to know.

As far as accuracy, a slow accurate round is always better than a fast inaccurate round. No question. BUT, a relatively fast accurate bullet is best!

I'm not particuraly worried about pressures, but I am careful.
I do believe a chronograph can be very valusble with load development. For example, when working up a hunting load for my mod 29, accuracy was staying unchanged as I went up in powder charge, but while still a full grain below book max with H-110 & 320gr bullets I found that I was gaining -0-fps in velocity. Obviously a waste to go any further.

As far as the 400gr Lee goes, it is my intended bullet. I just got the 1st 100 cast so we'll see.

[Frank]

Just keep in mind that 23 grns 296/110 with the Lee 400 seated to the top groove is 47,000 psi in 480 Ruger. It's compressed 115%. 23.3 puts you over 48,000. 44man's .475 load with 26.5 grns is a comfortable 30,000 with 91% load density. Slower shoots better. Show those targets. :Fire:

[wolfman]

I am loading the Lee 400g, pan lubed with Felix lube, over 19g of Lil Gun using CCI Mag LP primers, and am seating the boolit in the grove closest to the nose which gives an OAL of 1.68". I have measured the case fill, and I can go up to 20.5 grains, before I risk compressing the powder charge.
Chrono says 1,100fps ave, and I am getting sub 2", 6 round groups at 50 yds, boolits are straight WW water dropped, with no leading in my 7.5" SRH.

[Vance in Ak]

I am loading the Lee 400g, pan lubed with Felix lube, over 19g of Lil Gun using CCI Mag LP primers, and am seating the boolit in the grove closest to the nose which gives an OAL of 1.68". I have measured the case fill, and I can go up to 20.5 grains, before I risk compressing the powder charge.
Chrono says 1,100fps ave, and I am getting sub 2", 6 round groups at 50 yds, boolits are straight WW water dropped, with no leading in my 7.5" SRH.

Wolfman, have you compared Lil Gun with H-110 with these bullets? If so, what were your findings? Felt recoil, accuracy, velocity, etc.

By the way guys, I found some Federal LP & LPM primers that I had stashed. I'll do a comparisom between them & the WW LP primers with H-110. If time permits I'll pick up a # of Lil Gun for testing Monday. Unless someone can tell me it's the cat's meow I hate to buy the keg even though it's the only one he has.

[44man]

Thanks guys!

Let me share a couple of things.
1st, primary reason for question #1. e don't have a huge powder selection locally, & when I can get H-110 (My long time favorite) I usually pay close to $29 per pound. There is a local store with an 8# keg of Lil Gun for $155. That's a whole lot cheaper so I'm interested. I also know different powders produce a different recoil "feel" at the same velocities. Snappy vs big push etc. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands so I like big push vs sharp slap.

#2, I was just wondering what differences people have seen. Hate to reinvent the wheel. If someone was seeing pressure problems with it loaded short & changed to the long OAL & all was good I'd like to know.

#3, if the WW primers are dropping speeds that much over others, I'd like to know.

As far as accuracy, a slow accurate round is always better than a fast inaccurate round. No question. BUT, a relatively fast accurate bullet is best!

I'm not particuraly worried about pressures, but I am careful.
I do believe a chronograph can be very valusble with load development. For example, when working up a hunting load for my mod 29, accuracy was staying unchanged as I went up in powder charge, but while still a full grain below book max with H-110 & 320gr bullets I found that I was gaining -0-fps in velocity. Obviously a waste to go any further.

As far as the 400gr Lee goes, it is my intended bullet. I just got the 1st 100 cast so we'll see.
Lighter, faster boolits seem to have more whip and a faster recoil. Heavy boolits have more "Push." I like shooting my .475 better then I do a .454.

[wolfman]

No I havn't, and since I am happy with the results I am getting -w- the Lil Gun, I don't think I will. (Have about 5 lb on hand just for the .480)

[Faret]

Thanks guys!

Let me share a couple of things.
1st, primary reason for question #1. e don't have a huge powder selection locally, & when I can get H-110 (My long time favorite) I usually pay close to $29 per pound. There is a local store with an 8# keg of Lil Gun for $155. That's a whole lot cheaper so I'm interested. I also know different powders produce a different recoil "feel" at the same velocities. Snappy vs big push etc. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands so I like big push vs sharp slap.

#2, I was just wondering what differences people have seen. Hate to reinvent the wheel. If someone was seeing pressure problems with it loaded short & changed to the long OAL & all was good I'd like to know.

#3, if the WW primers are dropping speeds that much over others, I'd like to know.

As far as accuracy, a slow accurate round is always better than a fast inaccurate round. No question. BUT, a relatively fast accurate bullet is best!

I'm not particuraly worried about pressures, but I am careful.
I do believe a chronograph can be very valusble with load development. For example, when working up a hunting load for my mod 29, accuracy was staying unchanged as I went up in powder charge, but while still a full grain below book max with H-110 & 320gr bullets I found that I was gaining -0-fps in velocity. Obviously a waste to go any further.

As far as the 400gr Lee goes, it is my intended bullet. I just got the 1st 100 cast so we'll see.

what did your bullets mike out at?

[Faret]

I am using my bullets at .476 and getting leading any body else having the same problems.

[freedom475]

(Before I knew better)My testing with Lil'gun was with a 500S&W... and I found that the recoil and concusssion were a lot higher with lil'gun than h110. But when I chronoed the loads I found the the Lilgun load was actually slower in fps than the more managable h110 load.

I found that nothing worked as well in my 22 hornet as lil'gun and brass would last way longer than those loaded with 2400... maybe thats why they named it Lil'gun and not MagPistol :mrgreen:

That being said.. if you have trouble finding powder and you can buy the big jug for $155. I say buy it. You will probly not shoot the 480 enough to burn your pistol up with it, Especially with the wrists hurting you. Most guys I know that shoot the 475's find that the 11-1200fps mark with a 400gr +/-is a good place to shoot them ( Mr. Linebaugh himself told me he likes them around 1150 with the 385gr.) ... still shoot the length of a brownbear.

:castmine:

[Frank]

44man writes
Lighter, faster boolits seem to have more whip and a faster recoil. Heavy boolits have more "Push." I like shooting my .475 better then I do a .454.
Well you're the authority on reloading the big bore wheelguns. I can see your itty bitty groups and data records posted on how you achieve accuracy. It's not just about making it go bang, or using a given powder to save money. Whether you hunt, or just target shoot, finding the best load means finding the right boolit that shoots accurately with the best powder at the most accurate velocity. If 15 grns of HS6 is more accurate than W296 in my BFR 475, but it goes slower, I will use it without hesitation, not for a second. [smilie=p:

[Fowler]

44man writes
Well you're the authority on reloading the big bore wheelguns. I can see your itty bitty groups and data records posted on how you achieve accuracy. It's not just about making it go bang, or using a given powder to save money. Whether you hunt, or just target shoot, finding the best load means finding the right boolit that shoots accurately with the best powder at the most accurate velocity. If 15 grns of HS6 is more accurate than W296 in my BFR 475, but it goes slower, I will use it without hesitation, not for a second. [smilie=p:

Well this bring up another simple point here, what can be proven on a bench with sandbags often does not prove out with real shooting. I mean a load that may make tiny group from the bench might be very difficult to shoot well from real handgun shooting positions.

I like big bullets not big recoil, my day to day load is 8.0gr of W231 and a 375gr LFNPB bullet I cast for 865fps from my 4 3/4" FA with a 480 cylinder in it. My hunting load is 13.5gr of HS-6 for 1050fps with the same bullet. I did some load development last summer with this gun with a scope on it, it shoots 2" or better 50 yards groups with this bullet from 800fps to 1375fps in the 480 case. Now with iron sights and field positions I can come much closer to duplicating these results at the lower, mild recoiling speeds than I can at red line levels. It is not the gun or the load but it is me, I know this, and some of you may think of me as a wuss I don't care. I have accepted that I am recoil sensitive, and depending on how much shooting I am doing, it varies how much.

Find a load you shoot well and shoot the hell out of it. Dustin Linebaugh shoots a 475 Linebaugh Bisley Vaquero as his everyday gun and has for more than 15 years. His load is 24.0gr H110, CCI 350 primer, and a 425gr LFNGC bullet. It was what they thought you needed in the 475 when John and him built the gun years ago. Dustin has carried the gun for so many years he wore out his holster (barrel wore a hole through the side) and has had the gun reblued 3 times! He said he has well over 15,000 of that exact load through his gun, it is a extension of him. I know guys who have watched him shoot 4" off hand groups at 100 yards with this gun, he killed a Alaskan Brown bear at 176 yards with a single shot! He told me the biggest mistake they made with the gun was marrying it to such a heavy load, and that he should slow it down to 1050 to 1100fps! But after all of these years messing with his load would mess with everything he has learned about how to shoot this gun well so he leaves it alone. He said there is no reason to run this gun at this power level here in North America.

Learning to shoot these big guns well is not easy, might as well help ourselves with lighter loads that still do everything we need...

[sagacious]

That was nicely said!
I have a chronograph but I find it is useless for finding what shoots. I do all of my load work without it and only take it down if a friend comes over and want's to check his loads. I have loads for my revolvers so accurate I can't shoot good enough to make use of them and I have no idea how fast they are. Others have been checked but ONLY after accuracy work is done first. I could care less how fast my boolits are.
Some of my loads are close to max but only because that was where accuracy was found...
That is my practice as well. For me, it's considerably more convenient to work up a load for accuracy and pressure first-- couldn't care about velocity. With a large-caliber revolver, for most common applications, one can make almost any reasonable velocity work.

After the accuracy development work is done, only then does the chronograph come out, and only if I'm really curious or if there's a compelling reason. Barring that necessity, I have many favorite loads that have never been velocity-tested, as velocity was not a deciding factor in loading recipe selection or during load development.

But I reckon some others may have different needs, or more pressing curiosity. That's OK too.

[sagacious]

Vance,

I agree with 44man-- shooting 400gr 480 loads is more pleasant than shooting my 454 and 310gr cast. There's less 'blast', less 'shock' during recoil, but more 'push' with the 480. Also, and though I do not load to max in the 454, there's still less flash and concussion in the 480.

I feel fairly confident that you can find a recipe with either Lil Gun or WW296 and the LEE 400 that will serve your application well and afford all the confidence you want, and still not beat up your wrists too bad. If it were me, and there was a huge disparity in powder price, and little to no anticipated difference in performance, I'd go with the less expensive one-- to my mind, economy is a major facet of handloading. Consider also that in your example, powder charge adjustment may be at least as useful a factor in regulating subjective felt "push" as is exact powder type.

Your 480 is a wheel unto itself, so one need not worry about reinvention. Ultimately, the question about whether to use the first or second crimp groove on the LEE 400 is not one that forces itself. You can simply work-up using the second groove on all of your loads, with no requirement to resort to the first groove ever. My OAL is 1.672" on my loads, but that's what I've chosen and what works in my gun-- you can certainly have a longer OAL than that by using the second groove.

Congrats on pouring your LEE 400's! It's fun to pour those big slugs. Let us know how the testing goes.

Best of luck. :drinks:

[Whitworth]

Find a load you shoot well and shoot the hell out of it. Dustin Linebaugh shoots a 475 Linebaugh Bisley Vaquero as his everyday gun and has for more than 15 years. His load is 24.0gr H110, CCI 350 primer, and a 425gr LFNGC bullet. It was what they thought you needed in the 475 when John and him built the gun years ago.

I am the same way about loads. I find that one load that will work on virtually all game and I stick to it. I practice a lot and become VERY familiar with it. That said, 24 grains of H110 is far from a max load and really shouldn't kick that badly anyhow. I will bet his load goes right around 1,200 fps. Not obnoxious or unmanageable.

[44man]

This has been an enjoyable topic and a lot of good stuff posted.
I feel there is nothing wrong looking for less recoil and I sure will never call anyone a wuss. It takes many, many years to get used to recoil and it can still bother a fella. I am finding out myself because most of my shooting has been cut short this year having to take my wife for back decompression four days a week. I have not had time for much of anything, no casting or loading let alone shooting. I even went deer hunting the last time with only three rounds in my .475, all I had left.
I prefer to shoot all the time with my hunting loads because they are the most accurate and it makes it so easy to hit deer when recoil is never thought of.
We don't shoot from the bench that much unless we are shooting at cans at 100 and 200 yards for fun. After working loads, most of our shooting is off hand. We love to blow up bottles of water, etc. Whitworth, Bioman and I practice a lot off hand from a ladder stand. We shoot pretty far at small bottles of water, 86 yards can be seen from the stand before trees and stuff get in the way. This makes a 25 to 50 yard shot at deer so easy.
Sitting on the ground with elbows on the knees is even a lot easier.
Now the reason I don't like a heavy boolit with light loads is that it is just harder to find accuracy and my range is cut down for practice. There is no way to see if the load itself is the cause for a miss or if it is me. I prefer to call a miss depending on where my sights were when the gun went off. Loads that are not shooting where aimed will rule that out.
Accuracy is the reason I have worked so hard with revolvers all these years because then you can get better as you practice because it is YOU that you are working on, not shots going all over the place. If your gun sprays boolits, you will never become a better shot. I have not found a way to steer the boolit after it leaves the muzzle.
If your load is accurate with less recoil, go for it. But if your gun only shoots good with more recoil, then you have no choice but to shoot the accurate loads and get used to recoil. Don't fall into the trap of just making your gun go "bang." It is a waste of time, practice, powder and lead.
You want to reach the point that when you miss, you can turn around, grin, and say "I screwed up." I also accept the excuse that you could not see what you were shooting at! [smilie=l: A load that will not shoot is never an excuse though.

[Packy]

Hi guys. I shoot the lee 400gr. bullet in my taurus raging bull with 20 grains of 296 and ww primers. This will shoot 2" groups for me out to 100 yards when I do my part. The doe that I shot last fall at about 60 yards or so didn't go 50 yards. She was quartering away, hit behind the ribs, bullet exited between the front shoulder and the neck, Liquefied the lungs. Don't think she would have known the difference of a few more grains of powder.

Faret don't know what gun you are shooting but my taurus slugged at .476. So I had to ream out my sizer to .478. Once I reamed out the sizer the leading went away and the accuracy got lots better. Only sizer I could find was the rcbs .476.

[Bucks Owin]

My two centavos is that a chrono is your best friend in working up a load. When more powder doesn't give you much besides more blast and recoil, your chrono will tell you and all you are doing is raising pressures to no gain And when it tells you that you've reached the point of diminishing returns with regard to powder/velocity, you are generally close to the most accurate too. I'm talking slow powders here, 296/110 as that's what I mainly have used, I tend to stay away from fast powders except for economical plinking type loads...JMO, Dennis

[sixshot]

Most times I'll use a chrono right from the start, why not, its easy to set up & you are then doing both at the same time. Top end velocity is never a concern with me, I'm only looking for accuracy but it only takes a couple of minutes to set up the chrono so I do it.

Dick

[44man]

But you don't understand! :veryconfu
I hate hauling it down the hill and setting it up. Then it doesn't record some shots and I have to fool with it. That takes away target concentration.
Am I LAZY? You better believe it! :bigsmyl2:

[BABore]

I have a 9 1/2" Ruger SRH in 480. I can get nowhere close to Hodgdon's published figures. It kind of bugged me when I first started out with this gun. A call to Hodgdon's answered alot of the questions. They used an unvented test bbl for their velocities.

I used Lil Gun, WW296 (H110), and 2400 to work up loads using 370-400 grain boolits. 2400 always had good accuracy, but the lowest velocity before it maxed out. Even with a max load, there is some case capacity left, so it's just a touch too fast IMO. Lil Gun had good accuracy and velocity, but it got spikey and tempermental at top end. I've ran into similar issues with it in the 357, 41, and 44 mags. Again IMO it's just not worth the risk for a couple extra fps. WW296/H110 is the one that really shine in my gun. Top end loads and accuracy go hand-in-hand. I typically use CCI 350's with it. Not one to leave anything on the table, I've also tried CCI 300's and Winchester primers. The 350's win in my gun.

[Faret]

Tried unique 9 gr today and still got leading even after cleaning. Cleaned again switched to h-110 20 gr and worked better. Any idea why unigue isn't working?

[BABore]

Could be alot of things. Sometimes a certain powder will cause leading whereas a similar one won't. It could even be your lube and its hardness. A soft lube may negate the problem. I've never used Unique in mine. I have had good luck with WW 231 and Tite Group. I really don't shoot any light loads in my 480 anymore. I have other, smaller guns, to plink with.

[44man]

Tried unique 9 gr today and still got leading even after cleaning. Cleaned again switched to h-110 20 gr and worked better. Any idea why unigue isn't working?
Faster powders need a much harder boolit in my experience. Base damage at the forcing cone from pressures peaking too fast and the boolit skidding the rifling, opening gas channels on the side of the boolit.

[Faret]

That seems to be my problem then. Problem solved. :razz:

[Heavy lead]

11 grains of Unique shoot the RCBS boolit sized to .476 with BAC into a smaller group than I can hold it most of the time in my BFR, now this is a .475, not a .480, and it does not lead. I tried the Lee 400, but mine cast at .479 to .480 and by the time it was sized there were no lube grooves left. They chronograph at 1100 fps, and I've stopped using my Lil' Gun load as I couldn't see the point of all the extra commotion and power for an extra 150 fps for whitetails. The Unique load for me is not only accurate, but doesn't lead a bit.

[44man]

11 grains of Unique shoot the RCBS boolit sized to .476 with BAC into a smaller group than I can hold it most of the time in my BFR, now this is a .475, not a .480, and it does not lead. I tried the Lee 400, but mine cast at .479 to .480 and by the time it was sized there were no lube grooves left. They chronograph at 1100 fps, and I've stopped using my Lil' Gun load as I couldn't see the point of all the extra commotion and power for an extra 150 fps for whitetails. The Unique load for me is not only accurate, but doesn't lead a bit.
Now that would burn me up when a TL boolit casts too large. :x:x
I am lucky with my mold but I did have to send it back once.
These are test groups at 50 yards.
I shot the left group first and fooled with the Ultra Dot. Then I shot 3 more on the right target and they went into 1/4".
Then I shot 3 of my 429 gr GC boolits and two went into the first group and I dropped one low, my fault.
This is why I like 296. Velocity is 1340 fps. I use 26.5 gr with the Lee and 26 with my 429 gr.
Anyway, the Lee boolit will shoot.

[Vance in Ak]

OK, went & did a little (very little) testing today.
Temp was 25*, no wind. I was kneeling on both knees & using a sandbag rest under the frame. Pretty secure, but hands were a bit chilly. I didn't feel GREAT about my shooting, but felt that it was good enough to give me an idea of potential. I tried 4 different loads, 3 "performance" loads, & a plinking load.
I tried H-110 with both WW primers, & Fed LPM primers to see what the difference would be, & was an eye opener.
Bullet for all loads was 400gr Lee cast from WW & tumble lubed with Xlox.

20.0 gr Lil-Gun, WW primer, avg vel 1151, extreme spread 41fps. Accuracy potential good.

20.0 gr H-110, WW primer, avg vel 988, extreme spread 94fps. Accuracy potential poor.

20.0 gr H-110, Federal LP mag primer, avg vel 929, extreme spread 86fps. Accuracy potential good.

8.0 gr Unique, WW primer, avg vel 826, extreme spread 22fps. Accuracy potential good.

The surprise for me was that with H-110 the federal mag primer turned in lower velocity. Did have much better accuracy & slightly smaller extreme spread though.

As far as recoil, the Lil-Gun had slightly more felt recoil, but with an additional 163fps that is to be expected! Not as much recoil difference as I would expect considering the velocity gain. I'm sure if I got the H-110 up to 1150 the recoil would be at LEAST as stiff if not worse.
I would say that recoil with the Lil-Gun wasn't really any worse (didn't compare them side by side) than 320s out of my mod. 29 @ 1320fps.
I think I'll put my focus into the Lil-Gun for now. Seems to have the best potential.