Venturino on SMLE case seperations

[Char-Gar]

I wrote a letter to "Duke" in regard to his insistance that the SMLE case seperations is due to the springy rear locking lugs. The problem as I understand d it is primarily the grossly oversize chamber. I thought you folks mike be interested in his response. Here is the paragraphy of interest to you folks

"Also, I heartily disagree with you about the cause of case separations in SMLE .303s. All military chambers are cut very generously, not just those of the SMLE. For instance. I recently loaded some .313 inch cast bulets in 30-06 and thos round literally fell into Model 1903 and Model 1917 chambers. You might note that the Sierra Reloading Manual even says the MI Garands do not need small base resizing dies because their chambers are so big. Right now beside 4 SMLEs, I shoot a variety of miliatry rifles such as .30 Krags, 1903 Springfields, U.S. 1917s, Pattern 1914s, '98 Mausers, 6.5 & 7.7 Arisakas, several Mosin-Nagants 7.62s and probably others I am forgetting. The only ones with which I have experienced case seperations are the SMLEs. They are also the only ones with rear locking lubs. Note the Pattern 1914 does not exhibit this problem".

It was a most polite and quick letter. He is to be commended to take the time to respond the way he did. It speaks well of him as a person.

I have several points of disagreement with the content of his letter and how he arrived at his conclusion. However I will just let you guys have at it, all in the interest of forwarding the knowledge base.

[45 2.1]

Mike has written a lot in the time since he started writing articles, including the time frames involved and lack of involvement until fairly recently. He does not have the experience that quite a few of our members have, nor the amount of military arms to use to gain that experience. What he writes is characteristic of the amount of experience that he does have. He might change his mind about a lot of those things when he delves deeper into shooting militaries than he has so far and find that his assumptions were just that and not fact. Since he has the ear of a large audience, he should not propose his opinion as fact until it is very well proven to him. Al Miller could show him a few things about that also.

[StarMetal]

I just wonder about the 303 and other rimmed bolt action rounds. They headspace on the rims flange. So lets say you have a SMLE and the bolt closes a light snug fit on your cartridge. Let's say the chamber is big in both diameter and lenght. Let's say the bolt doesn't really spring BACK as much as we think a rear lock up does. Let's also say the brass is a tad oily and it doesn't really obturate to the chambers walls as tightly as we'd like to thing. Well if all those conditions are present, the brass only has one two ways to out, outward to the chamber walls and foreward until it hits the shoulder slope, BUT the rear of the case isn't going anywhere because that big rim flange is butt up against the back of the barrel. Remember I said one of the conditions is the rear locking bolt doesn't spring back that much. This leads me to think it MAY be one of the reason SMLE's have a head separation. In the rimless rounds all that's holding the whole case from going forward, assuming the case is shorter then the chamber, it the extractor, and frankly there's alot of slop in those. Another class of cartridges that suffer thinning of the web area and head separation are the belted magnums. In sense you almost have the same thing as a rimmed case, but in this instance you have the belt holding the brass from going forward. When I had my 7mm Rem Mag Sako, I sized them to headspace off the shoulder and I lost nary a case. I even experimented and turned the belts off a box of Winchester and they performed perfect. Okay, what do you think?

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Joe.... Mikes prime error in thinking that all miliatry rifles are oversize to the same degree. To be certain most military rifles are more generous in the chamber than their sporting counterpart. HOWEVER.. The SMLE takes a good thing way past where the others do so. The shoulder of the fired case has such a great distance to go before contact with the chamber shoulder that a big stretch occures. The rim being held fast as you noted. Full length size and you do it all over again. It won't be long until the case rolls snake eyes.

Rather than taking note of the difference he can't see (i.e. the inside of the chamber) Mike takes the easy road and notes what he can see and that is the location of the locking lugs on the bolt. A critical look at a factory unfired case and a fired case will change the equation.

Mike's knowledge of these rifles and his reasoning are both rather superficial. Frankly I am suprised. I would have thought he had more sophisticated reasoning. If you are going to put something in print, you need to examine all the options and then test your theory to see if it hold swater.

[StarMetal]

Charger,

Yeah, Mike isn't a sharp bird. I think Rick Jamision is though. Ricks ALOT into the technical aspect of things too. He as all the latest gadgets too.

Back on subject somewhat. From all the so called experts on WWI and WWII rifles, the majority tend to agree the SMLE was the mostly likely canidate to function longer then the other countries fielded choice. I tend to agree too. We all know the reasoning behind the rear locking lugs and the sloppy chambers. Shuck the Brits never thought we would be shooting the dickenings out of these things in the future. If they knew they might have said "The hell with the Yanks, make those chambers sloppy!" [smilie=l:

Joe

[felix]

All rear locking mechanisms stretch much more than lugs up front. Period! ... felix

[NVcurmudgeon]

In an experiment with .303 case life, I got 26 firings from R-P brass, neck-sizing, without trimming, and shooting full-power jacketed bullet loads. The only caveat is that I knew that the chamber of my 1943 Fazakerly No. 4 rifle is long and I knew how long it is. After 26 firings, the cases reached chamber length, so I naturally discontinued the test. I sectioned one of the cases and found no sign of incipient head separation. By contrast, full-length sizing allowed, IIRC, two firings before reaching chamber length. Guess I could have trimmed the cases and continued on, but discretion is the better part of valor and 26 firings was enough to satisfy my inner Scotsman!

[Larry Gibson]

I'm somewhat surprised at the lack a daisical responce from Mike also. His reasoning mystifies me. I don't own a SMLE and can say I never have. However I have reloaded for several of them with both cast and jacketed bullets helping friends. I do have a Ross MK III M-10 and have also loaded for several P14s. It is my observation that the Ross has the slopiest chamber and the P14s the tightest. The SMLEs seem to run from sloppy WWI rifles to tighter chambered later ones. The Brits reamed out the standard chambers of all SMLE and Ross chambers in France during WWI. The rifles made after that seem to have the more standard military chamber. It is my experience that at the mild pressure loads used in SMLEs that when cases are neck sized they give as long a life as any other milsurp case that is neck sized. However, if you run a fired case into a FL die, even to partial size, it is the sides of the case that gets squeezed in. This pushes the shoulder forward and it then must be set back. This is what leads to incipient case head seperation after only several firings. A friend has one of the "new" SMLEs that have been around for a couple years. He also has a Lee loader. We loaded one case 20 times (150 gr Hornady over 44 gr 4895) and gave up. It was starting to get difficult to chamber but after 20 firing what does one expect. A friend says he has about the same results neck sizing for his P14. I get about very good case life with the Ross (it is loaded hotter BTW) but then it doesn't lock in the rear.

Would be interesting if one of the crowd here who shoots a SMLE could run a test and give us a better answer.

I've had several Rem M788s in several calibers and have yet to find they stretch any more than a front locking action.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry....all I can say is read what Felix posted above...all rear locking mechanisms stretch much more then lugs up front. Period.[smilie=1:

Joe

[versifier]

Larry....all I can say is read what Felix posted above...all rear locking mechanisms stretch much more then lugs up front. Period.[smilie=1:

Joe

Of course they do, but the effect is much more pronounced with hotter loads. I have never been a velocity vulture and have always loaded for accuracy. The most accurate loads are almost never the fastest. Like Larry, I get excellent case life with my 788's for precisely that reason. Neck sizing and moderate loads I think make the issue of rear lugs mostly irrelevant. SMLE chambers are a bigger problem in my opinion than their rear lugs, but as has been pointed out, the less you work the fire-formed brass, the greater your case life. Once you know how to work with them, they present no problem.

I have to agree that Duke's knowledge is lacking in some areas, but as he is a popular writer, many accept his word as gospel without bothering to check it out. That's why so much "common knowledge" is fertilizer. It just gets repeated without investigation ad nauseam when it would be better off in the compost pile. One of the main strengths of this forum and its members is our willingness to actually check things out ourselves. The more intelligent minds that consider a problem, the greater the depth to which it can be thoroughly explored. As my grandfather used to say, "Two heads are better than one, even if one of them's a cabbage." Going from writing project to writing project, Duke doesn't have either the time or the inclination for serious investigation. His job is to write and sell interesting articles to magazines, and the more articles he can write in a given period, the better his income. His time is money and serious investigations are simply not cost effective for him. What he produces is not intended as technical writing, but as entertainment - that is a given for the magazines for whom he writes. He couldn't sell a really technical article, and even if he could, those mags that would buy them don't pay squat in comparison to the slick glossies that he does sell his work to. It might be nice if he did one once in a while though, as the knowledge and experience gained would make him a better writer.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Regardless of what we say about it, the plain hard fact is that SMLEs and No4s are pretty much the only rifles who suffer from frequent case separtions when reloaded. You can work around it and avoid it, but all of the other rifles don't seem to have a problem whatever you do. With this in mind, the springy action must be a factor (not the only one, but definetly a factor). I have often thought of wringing out a SMLE and getting to know all about them, but even though I carried one in the school cadets and hunted often with them in my early daze, I can't get too excited about them. I buy the occasional exceptional one when it comes up, but they generally get snapped up by friends who all seem crazy about them. I'm not enarmored enough with them to hang on to them and take a profit. I have fancied converting a sporter version to a 35 cal or 444 or something, but there is so much better stuff out there, it never happens.

[45 2.1]

Larry....all I can say is read what Felix posted above...all rear locking mechanisms stretch much more then lugs up front. Period.[smilie=1:

Joe

They do as Felix says, BUT it seems like operator error and stupidity cause the related problems with it.

[StarMetal]

I'd like to hear about how the SMLE's that were made up in 308 do as far a brass stretching. There's alot more pressure there then with a 303.

To add to Felix's statement, which I believe by the way, ALL actions stretch. Just like Buckshot told me what some old machinist told him, in the machinist world all tools, machines, and metal can be concidered to be rubber.....and I add that to gun actions.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, I have that 308 Indian (India) conversion of the jungle carbine. The Indian ammo is first class stuff for military use in that gun, but loaded quite soft. My cast loads for the gun are equivalent in trajectory and accuracy. The once fired cases cannot be full length resized in terms of headspace with my equipment, and must be neck sized only. Not much info past this point, because I want Nick, my son, to do the measurements for his learning curve. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Larry....all I can say is read what Felix posted above...all rear locking mechanisms stretch much more then lugs up front. Period.[smilie=1:

Joe

Well, ok I guess there is some truth to that but my point is with some rear locking actions is it measureable> My reason for this is I know of .308s, .243s and .22-250s M78 in use and they get the same number of firings with NSing as M70s/M700s before needing partial resizing. I guess I could take 10 new cases and use 5 in my M70 and 5 in my M788, guess I could make it 15 cases and use the M98 also. If I use 3 rifles I may cut it to 3 cases per rifle as that is a lot of testing and tracking if it gets upwards of 10 firings per case or more. I would NS the cases after the first firing and track bolt lift for number of firings before partial resizing is necessary. I would also measure case OAL and headspace after each firing. For this test I would use the same top end (safe) load with jacketed bullets in each rifle. Not at 'definitive test but it should tell us if the M788 with rear lugs causes case stretching to any measureable or meaningful degree. Sound ok?

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Larry, no need to unless you are trying new loads for the fun of it. If you are staying under 50K cup constantly with these newer guns, you probably won't see any stretching worth talking about. You would have to shoot a xxxx-pot full of 65K cup to have something to measure after a reasonable outing. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Joe, I have that 308 Indian (India) conversion of the jungle carbine. The Indian ammo is first class stuff for military use in that gun, but loaded quite soft. My cast loads for the gun are equivalent in trajectory and accuracy. The once fired cases cannot be full length resized in terms of headspace with my equipment, and must be neck sized only. Not much info past this point, because I want Nick, my son, to do the measurements for his learning curve. ... felix

Felix,

That Indian 308 ammo then is pretty much like the Spanish 308 Cetme then??

Joe

[StarMetal]

Nah Larry, no need to go through all that and waste your componants. We have a pretty good idea of what stretches the most, etc.

Joe

[felix]

I guess so, Joe. Buy the stuff if boxer primed and the anneal looks uniform. I think Nick paid 65.00 per K of the Indian stuff. Just a good buy, so why not? He does not like to reload at all, unless I am there with him, and then, it's for ACPs on the Dillon only. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Yeah alot of folks thought the Spanish 308 Cetme could utilize Nato, military, and commercial 308, which apparently it has, but the rifles made for it really weren't intended for the hotter 308. Sounds like the India 308 is dead copy of the Cetme stuff.

I remember when those Isaphore 308 rifles were really selling pretty big and some gunrag writer mentioned that the receivers were made of chrome moly steel. Well Gary James, who's very affluent on military firearms said he had a laugh when he read that because all MIII's were made of chrome moly. His opinion was that the rifle wasn't designed to fire 308 pressure ammo and said he wasn't comfortable with the idea of it. Now it comes to light about this India reduced pressure loading of the 308 for such rifles.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

In 1973 I spent three days in Bombay as the house guest of the Bombay area IG (Inspector General) of Police. The conversation turned to guns and most of his police were unarmed, but one third of them were armed with "muskets" which well good ol SMLEs. He did mention they the "armed men" were issued a "lesser load" for police work. I assumed he was talking about .303 British caliber, but we never talked about caliber. He carried a Browning Hi-Power and we shot it in his back yard in Bombay. I had to work real hard to let him beat me..it was the polite things to do as I was eating his food and darn good food it was. He had 18K police under his command.

[Buckshot]

...............Another thing to remember about action stretching with rear lockups. There is also some amount of bolt compression taking place too. A front locker has the distance from the boltface to the locking lug shoulder. So does a rear locker. In a modern rifle of through heat treated 4140 or 4350 (or comparable stainless) I doubt very much that this bolt compression adds much compared to a low carbon case hardened (soft core) bolt.

Also look at the design. The Remington M788 is a solid steel tube with only 2 slots cut into it. One fopr the mag and one for the ejection port. Compare that to the SMLE which has the entire top and right side missing and also a rather wide slot for the staggered magazine box underneath. The 788 also has lugs placed radially vs linearly opposed like the SMLE.

I read years ago in Presicion Shooting magazine many years ago about the action bending that took place in the early days of benchrest shooting. Most all these guys used either Mauser or Springfield actions. The Mausers upon firing would flex throught the thumb slot in the left wall, which is cut down nearly to the left lug raceway. The Springfields were a bit more rigid in this regard. This caused the bolts to shift slightly, affected vibrations and caused all manner or problems.

Even now with the quickly and easily made tubes used for several actions
and thier superior rigidity they still make tubes to slip over them and epoxy in place to make them even more rigid. Naturally it's all in thousandths and tens of thousandths of an inch, but measureable.

................Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

Let's add a little more fuel to the fire, although it really doesn't bear on the SMLE or rear locking bolt issue. However, it does give some insight into how to interpret and understand Mike Venturino's writtings. Here is another paragraph from his letter.

"Now let me address the issue of case seperations in the SMLE rifles. I had two reasons NOT to neck size brass (1) Several reloading manuals warn that there will be case seperations with .303 SMLEs and I wanted to ascertain how walid those warnings are. (2) Let me assure you that I am well aware of the concept of neck sizinging brass and keeping it sorted for individuals rifles. That is not a valid concept for m reloading because I own better than 200 firearms. Many are of the same caliber. For instance, I have 4 in .303 British, 9 bolts in 30-06, 3 of my 45-70's are for BPCR match shooting along with two 40-65s. Just having space to store sorted lots of brass for each rifle would be prohibitive. In my reloading I INSIST that brass fit all rifles of that caliber. I 've learned the hard way what a pain it is to travel somewhere and then find the loads I have brought with me won't fit in the rifle I brought"

I have no quarrel with any of the substance of the above paragraphy..none! I won't get into how many rifles I have, but I have plenty enough to understand Mike's concern.

At more than one point in my life, I have given thought to taking a fling at writing for the commercial gun press...haven't we all! I have always backed out because I didn't feel I knew enough to take on the mantle of "expert" that goes with that venture.

But my assumption was that such writings should be aimed at the reader with the purpose being to educate and illuminate. It would be nice to entertain as well, but I would want to advance the craft and lift the knowledge lever of the reader.

It didn't occur to me that "gun writing" was just sorta "tag along with me to the range and watch what I do" without any consideration of trying to deal with the issue in such depth as to give the reader a boost in knowledge or practice.

I guess the bottom line is I have been kinda "taken aback" by the superficial nature of Mike's approach. I hate to put that in print, because it makes me sound a little judgmental and arrogant and I don't fancy myself as that..but that is the way it's strikes me.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Chargar, I have been dissatisfied in recent years with most of the firearms press. Is it the handbasket syndrome that many of us geezers attribute nearly everything to, or is it that as we gain knowledge we tend to lose patience with the popular press? The popular press seems to be directed at shooters who are not very interested in exploring esoteric problems in depth. However, I believe that the casual reloader represents the vast majority of magazine buyers. I further believe that the mass market buyers are constantly renewing themselves, while we are not only a tiny minority, but ever-diminishing. We may well be the illuminati, but there are not enough of us to justify much shelf space in the local supermarket.

I got an education in this concept when I detected what I perceived as a decline in Rifle magazine, followed quickly by its spread to Handloader. (This occured about ten years ago IIRC, about the time when more pictures, more color, and a shift to content almost exclusively authored by staff writers began to dominate.) I wrote a multi-page critique of what appeared to me to be a dumbing down of these two previously fine publications to their editor. Amazingly enough, I received a lengthy reply stating the publisher's reason for the changes. It was not enough to prevent my letting my Wolfe subscriptions lapse, but I did understand a lot more about the publishing business.

There may have been a little bit of my own ox being gored in my complaints. I had been published in Handloader in a very minor way, and even paid on one occasion! This was just at the end of Wolfe's encouraging contributions from readers.

Today I receive the American Rifleman because I am a life member of NRA. It's pretty good, considering the wide market it must appeal to. As far as publications that I pay for, I subscribe to the excellent Fouling Shot, because of your recommendation seven years ago on the old Shooters board. I also receive Shooting Times because I like to get the latest news of new products and ST seems to be the best of an insipid bunch, and they almost give it away if you wait for the right deal. Also, Rick Jamison isn't too bad, and there is an occasional interesting, but not very deep, article from Mike Venturino.

Thanks to the fine, honest, letter I got from Wolfe's editor years ago, I don't expect very much from the firearms press, and am no longer disappointed. It no longer bothers me that the mass market is dominated by such worthies as the guy with two last names from one of the Carolinas. Nor am I upset by the attitude of superficial "experts" who prefer badmouthing the .303 to problem solving, and advocate the latest Darth Vader Magnum. The shooting press has become largely clones of Guns and Ammo. Long live the internet!

[Char-Gar]

NV... I guess I need to have your attitude ,as it seems very reality based. I guess times have indeed changed. I grew up reading Keith, O'Connor, Hagel, Bellah, Whelen, Ackley and the like. The folks had a depth of knowledge and experience I could never have.

The gun press was limited to the American Rifleman and Gun's Magazine. I was a charter subscriber to Shooting Times and still have the first issues when it was a tabloid newspaper.

I was also a charter subscriber to Handloader and still have the first issue.

Today there are several score magazines and reloading is far more popular than it was in the 50's. I guess I just need to adjust and accept the reality of the dumbing down of shooting literature and the lack of interest of real knowledge on behalf of the shooter and reloader.

I am glad the internet came along when it do, so folks can "network" on the net. there is not much to be gain from reading the pulp gun press.

[Buckshot]

...............Bill, I was a subscriber to at least Handloader at the time when they made the announcement that they were going "Mainstream". Basicly it said, "Folks, we gotta dumb this thing down so as to appeal to the broader but shallower shooter out there in today's market".

As to Venturino, he's not my favorite writer, but he's the writer who usually has something about the stuff I'm most interested in. And at times I just wonder how some of these people became writters?

The way it usually works is you see something on the cover like, "Mike wrings out the 40-65" so you buy the thing and when you get it home it's the front and back of the same page and a half of the next. It never really gets going before it's summed up in the last 2 paragraphs and then that's it. To be honest possibly he could write more but that's all the editor wants? It's surely not like what Ken Waters used to put out by a country mile.

I'm reminded of his article many years ago on cast in the 9mm. He said after trying everything he knew to do he still just got patterns. Then it dawned on him to check the barrel so it he slugged it and it was like .357". He was sizing .355". Well, DUH! But I have to admit he was man enough to admit his mistake in public, so there is that. Yet on the other hand you would think that a gunwriter whose supposed specialty was cast boolits would have thought to do that from the git-go, and not put himself through all that. Ya think?

About that last paragraph from Venturino is concerned, he's not really writing for the people who read the magazine if he thinks they all have 4, .303's and 6, 30-06's and multiple other calibers. Yet on the other hand, the readers don't know that he has all those multiples either. So what is wrong in his suggesting to the reader of the SMLE article it would be to his benefit to neck size only to keep from wrecking his brass after the 3rd reload? Even if Venturino does not do it, it's still the best way. If a reader has 13 SMLE's and he figures that is ludicris then let HIM, the reader make that decision. At least the author has provided the best information.

It's like Al Miller who uses dacron fillers. Many is the time I've read in his articles where he mentions using it, he also says that lots of knowledgeable shooters don't because of the possibility of ringed barrels and chambers. He advocates it, but lets the reader make up his own mind about it. Better I think.

................Buckshot

[BruceB]

I have quite a bit of time for ol' Mike, and I've followed his writing career from its beginning. It's definitely the editorial staff that shapes the final form of any writer's articles these days, and that always seems to translate into rather superficial efforts, compared to the "Handloader" of the '60s and '70s.

He and I proceeded along very similar lines in our shooting interests over the years. In fact, back around 1990 (before a disastrous social upheaval destroyed my "hunting group"), I wrote Mike with an invitation to join us for a Canadian version of the "good ol' boys hunt" in the NWT, flying-out for moose and woodland caribou north of Yellowknife. I mentioned that he and I could even wear the same shirts! I got a very quick and pleasant reply, thanking me for thinking of him and wishing that his prior commitments hadn't made it necessary to turn the offer down. Due to unfortunate circumstances, I was never able to re-issue the invitation. I still regret that inability.

When I finally got to read "The SPG Blackpowder Handbook" (I believe that's the title) by Steve Garbe and MLV, I was surprised to find that it, too, is pretty danged shallow. I would have thought that a handbook would be the ideal venue to let the juices of creativity really flow, and put a LOT of solid info between the covers. Unfortunately, it's more of a grade-school primer than an advanced textbook. Useful, but far from all-encompassing.

Tonight I visited some of the other sites that deal with cast bullets, and it's still depressing to see only a post every few days, or sometimes worse. I keep dropping our web address in those places, and hope that a few of the interested parties stop over here. The lack of knowledge, or the possession of WRONG "knowledge" on those sites, is pervasive and disheartening. WHAT did I ever do without Shooters' and the ensuing Cast Boolit sites?

[Char-Gar]

Buckshot...I think you have dialed into my concern. Mike is not writing for his readers. The sum total of his article on the .303 Brits is..." These things shoot sorta OK, but throw your cases away after three firings because they are going to seperate due to the springy rear locking SMLE action.

I would thing a writer should have enough respect for the reader to write with the goal of helping them and in doing so should present all of the information and options as you suggest. A fellow who picked up the magazine to read about Mike's experience with the SMLE would come away with nothing but mis-information.

Mike has been doing this for decades now and should learn and grow in his profession and craft. Bujt it appears he just has some sort of superficial formula he follows in a rote manner.

The second article that Jim Wilson published contained some material about the use of Colt Patterson revolvers in early Texas. He worked from memory and did not check his facts and had early Texas history mixed up. He had the wrong people at the wrong battle, using the wrong firearms.

Texas history is one of my long suits, so I wrote him, pointed out the error. He wrote back admiting his error and admited that he was working from memory and promised he would never do that again. Since that time, he has never made even a minor historical error. He does a fine job of what he does. We maintained correspondence for some years and he is a great fellow. He is a man who is never too old or exerienced to learn and grow... May his tribe increase.

I guess the bottom line is, I come from a background that says, if you take money to do something, then you have an obligation to give something of substance for that money. You owe your best effort. If you are not willing to give your best effort, then don't take the money. I feel the poor sap who bought the magazine was cheated out of information he paid for. He bought the magazine to find out how to handload for the .303 SMLE and didn't get even the most basic of information he needed. This is what sticks in my craw.

[Char-Gar]

Bruce.. I have No. 72 of the SPG BP Reloading rimer, all numbered and signed by Mike and Steve. Like you, I was disappointed by the shallow nature of the work.

I have concluded that Mike is not overly concerned with the "why" but is content with the "how". Of course, without understanding the "why", the "how" will always be superficial.

I think it was about 1998 when I ran accross the cast bullet secton of Shooters.com. I have been casting since the 50's, but 70% of what I have learned of value came from you and others on that board. Hanging out here, has taught me to be wary of what I read in the pulp press, but do my own thinking and experimenting and then rub shoulders with others who do the same.

Sometimes this rubing produced more heat than light, but there is always some steady forward progress in the craft.

The folks on this board (at least the core) are concerned not only with "how" but also with "why". This is what keeps us stretching.

[StarMetal]

Charger,

I know what you mean and how you feel. I like old Mike though and one reason is we're about the same age and we grew up in about the same area. He grew up in W. VA right across the PA state line from me. If it wasn't for Mike I would have never gotten my Browning 1886 Winchester 45-70 rifle, which I love dearly. He wrote in an article to at least try a 45-70. He said you will either like it or you won't liket it, that there usually wasn't a middle ground. Well I did and I loved it.

I guess what you expect him to do is the EXACT same thing we can say about this sorry government of ours and we play those people.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

I think it was about 1998 when I ran accross the cast bullet secton of Shooters.com. I have been casting since the 50's, but 70% of what I have learned of value came from you and others on that board. Hanging out here, has taught me to be wary of what I read in the pulp press, but do my own thinking and experimenting and then rub shoulders with others who do the same.

Sometimes this rubing produced more heat than light, but there is always some steady forward progress in the craft.

The folks on this board (at least the core) are concerned not only with "how" but also with "why". This is what keeps us stretching.

I hear ya, Chargar. Dittoes in three dimensions.

[Char-Gar]

Come on Joe..get it right... ChargEr is the newbie on the board. I am ChargAr and have been around a spell. I knew this was going to happen when Charger showed up.

[Char-Gar]

Come on Joe..get it right... ChargEr is the newbie on the board. I am ChargAr and have been around a spell. I knew this was going to happen when Charger showed up.

[StarMetal]

Chargar, aw yeah...shucks must be getting senile.

Joe

[Bret4207]

I have several of Mikes,( I will NOT refer to him as "Duke", give me a freakin' break!!! It's "DUKE" after 20 years?!?!?), early articles from Handloader and such. He was of almost human size back then. He also did some good work. He went the same way guys like Layne Simpson, Jim Carmichael, Ross Seyfreid, and several others went. He got sorta "famous" and his effort seemed to drop. Carmichael used to do some really GOOD writting, on cast boolits no less. Whatever the reason, I can't agree with the result. Until his age and his ailing wife took their toll Ken Waters wrote encylopedic articles on whatever subject he picked. He told you the whats and whys and hows of getting the best out of a cartridge/gun combo. I never once got false info or bad info from Ken. Same with George Nonte, Al Miller, Frank Marshall, Elmer, Henry Stebbins, Skeeter, Phil Sharpe or a whole bunch of other "Old School" writers. Even today I can refer to Naramore or Sharpe and get good, although dated, info. (Gotta watch those powder charges!) The editors have lowered the bar in an attempt to appeal to a broader market and the serious "gun crank" has been the victim.

Today the internet is full of information. Deciding what info is trustwothy and what is so much bull-pucky is the problem. I can go to any number of sites I have book marked and get contradictory information and some that is down right wrong. The 'net has to have really cut into the bottom line of the gun magazine earnings. I used to subscribe to G+A, Shooting Times, Gun World, Fur-Fish-Game, Sports Afield, Field and Stream, Outdoor Life, American Handgunner, Handloader, Rifle, MuzzleLoader and 5 or 6 others I don't recall, plus I would pick up whatever was on the rack at the store that looked good. The American Rifleman came with my Life membership. Today I get FFG, Handloader and Muzzleloader. My son gets F+S. Thats it.

As for the L/E stretching issue- Yes you can say rear locking actions as a group stretch more than front lockers. The "gossly oversize chamber" is IMHO a bit of an overblown myth. Any reloader worth his salt can work around headspace and design limits and have good case life given decent brass and dies. I think it was a dis-service to his readers for Mike to gloss over the "hows" of dealing with the problem he encountered. I think he's gotten full of himself and a bit lazy. I class him a 2nd rank writer behind guys like Brian Pierce, but ahead of the Boddington/Fortier/Simpson clan.

[Char-Gar]

Bret... The grossly oversize chamber is not a myth. It is there. Full length size your cases and you will get seperations in a few loadings.

However, you are dead bang on, when you say, this thing can be gotton around by handloading. Fireform the case to the chamber and then neck size or partial size so you don't shove the shoulder back and you get good case life.

[Bret4207]

Chagar- I'm not saying they aren't very generous. I maintain that they aren't akin to dropping a 1/2" bolt ina 3/4" hole if you follow me. The way some scribes go on, you'd think you could drive a Lincoln through the chamber on every L/E ever made.

[StarMetal]

Why is it that this multitude of incorrect information exists among various gun writers when in hot rodding car engine writers it doesn't? You pick up a car magazine like say Hot Rod or Chevy High Performance and the how to articles are dead on. Even on TV shows that are about guns the host get things wrong about what he's talking about, for example I was watching a show and the host incorrectly named the caliber of the rifle he was holding. This never happens on the automotive shows. Is it that automobiles and their engines are more regulated then guns and their cartridges? I don't think so, but yet there is present a wide margin of errors in the gun world.

Personally I'm not too fast to pick on the gunwriters. I'll honestly admit when I'm in the waiting room of the eye doctors, or the my general physician I'd much rather read Shooting Times, Guns & Ammo, Outdoor Life then say Redbook, Family Circle, People, etc....you get the point. With that said I believe Layne Simpson has vast more gun knowledge the Mike Venturino. Simpson, I believe, has done alot more with guns of all kinds and no doubt has hunted around this country and other continents more then Mike has. Don't get me wrong, I like Mike, especially how he catered to a certain type of firearm. I hold him responsible for talking me into trying a 45-70.

Joe

[versifier]

Chagar- I'm not saying they aren't very generous. I maintain that they aren't akin to dropping a 1/2" bolt ina 3/4" hole if you follow me. The way some scribes go on, you'd think you could drive a Lincoln through the chamber on every L/E ever made.

I don't know about a Lincoln, maybe just a Toyota. :)

[omgb]

My take on gunwriters is like this; some are technical experts others are story tellers.

In the first category I put Ken Waters, Dean Grenell, Charles Askins, Bob Milek (the cheif proponent of the .357 Herrit and handgun hunting) Finn Aagard, George Nonte, Townsend Whelen and John Tafflin. In the latter category I'd put Jack O' Conner, Peter hathaway Capstick, Elemer keith and Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton. These guys could write. Keith would drive an English teacher crazy but dang, as a folk-story teller he was unsurpassed. I sure miss old Milek. he was the one responsible for my buying my first T/C Contender and it was based on his stories, that i made the dcision to hunt Antelope out at Grass Range MT using a pistol. Mike V. is pretty good. I like reading his stuff but you're right, it's mostly pablum, not very technical and not deeply researched. He writes in a popular style that does not require much education to digest. So, it's good 'crapper" reading but not the stuff that really answers as many questions as it leaves.

[Bigjohn]

It would appear the malays we are talking about in this thread is effecting the sports media south of the equator as well. For many years I would buy many of the magazines produced here for the information on subjects of interest to me. The technical articles now seem to contain less of the technical material and more of the campfire type tales of hunting etc.:coffee:

I tend to find that older articles contain more information of value. A recent article in a local magazine on 'Shooting the Jungle Carbine' .303 ended by basically telling the read that they would have to put up with a wandering zero if the wished to shoot such a rifle. There was little or no information on how to modify the loading to make them shoot well.

The LE .303 is well known for case seperations which has lead to a multitude of fixes for the problem. With regards to the headspace issue, the local target shooters had different sized bolt heads (which are easy to replace, turn off, turn on) and there was a rim gauge made to help you determine which number (#) bolt head to use for this batch of ammo. (I have one somewhere amongst my bits and pieces).

Other modifications were done to the SMLE destined for use on the target range to improve there accuracy. This included floating the barrel etc.

[JudgeBAC]

Would it not help to have a chamber cast done on several SMLEs and compare the dimensions to full length sized brass vs. fired brass? I have two 788 Remingtons one of which I had rebarreled to .220 Swift in my groundhog hunting days. I shot many many rounds through it, full bore loads which I wont repeat here for fear of someone using them (they were within loading handbook limits at the time but were hot enough to cause primer cratering). With every swift I own I always trimmed after each firing. I never had a case to separate in any rifle including the 788. I would think an exhausitve test with several rifles and a chamber cast of each and detailed measurements of cases would answer some of these questions. Just a thought.

[versifier]

A chamber cast would help if you were interested in the exact dimensions, but a fired (fireformed) case can and will give you enough information to load accurately and increase your brass life at least somewhat. You just have to accept that full length resizing is not the answer and treat the rifle as if it has an "improved" chamber (because it does, with the oversize condition giving you a greater powder capacity). You wouldn't consider fl sizing with a regular die if you had an IMP chamber, would you? Of course not. Why not? Because it would overwork the brass and you'd get short case life and a tendency towards separations, etc. Don't load them too hot, neck size them until they won't chamber, then either toss them or anneal them, fl size, and refireform them all over again. The only ways to fix the problem are to rebarrel and ream a tight chamber, or to have a custom sizing die made especially for the rifle's oversized chamber. All else is a series of compromises so you can work around it and live with it (kinda sounds like marriage or politics, doesn't it?)

[35remington]

Guys, isn't it possible to expand the .303 case neck with a .338 tapered expander ball, then run the case in the .303 die to form a secondary shoulder to headspace on? No stretching on even the first firing with new cases. Sorta like forming 7-30 Waters brass from .30-30 cases.

At least, that's how I do it with my .303. Wonder why Venturino overlooked that too. (Pardon me if one of you mentioned that already).

[felix]

Yes, that technique works every time. But, if every time the case expands and contracts (length wise) it tends to weaken the case in that one spot where it first expanded. If the expansion is minisicule like in a strong action, then the case would last a long time even with hot loads. Question is, how hot is hot in a springy action? The answer will obviously depend on each individual gun. Some will shoot 20 weak rounds, or only 3 hot rounds. It's a "only the shadow knows" on what action strength you have, and the loads it needs for 20 shots. ... felix

[matm0702]

I'm new at reloading 303, But Ive stated loading it with cast bullets as I've read about short case life with this caliber. I neck size and run moderate loads.
I'm using 11 grains of red dot with a lee 185-190 grain gc bullet. Don,t know
what alloy or hardness as these were given to a friend of mine and then passed to me. I've also use Berrys plated 150 gr 30-30 bullets at a .311 diameter over 12gr of red dot. I did try some of my friends 303 loads and had a couple case separations with them. They were Fl sized 2-3 times with full power jacketed loads. I also have a P14 that gets my jacketed loads. My no#4 mk1 is reserved for my cast loads and my brass is separated between both rifles. Have had no separations with my own brass/loads and am now in my 5th loading for the No#4.

Mike

[Sailman]

I have 80 rounds of 303 brass which are only used in my MK-4 SMLE Enfield. I started out with 80 bran new cartridges. I have only shot lead bullets in these cartridges. I have never Full Length Sized these cartridges, they have only been necked sized. For apx. the first half life of the cartridges, I neck sized with a RCBS Neck Sizing die. For the second half life of the cartridges, I neck sized with a Lee Collet die. I keep these dedicated brass cartridges in groups of
20. The following are the number of times these cartridges have been loaded and shot:

20 cartridges shot 31 times.
20 cartridges shot 41 times.
20 cartridges shot 42 times
20 cartridges shot 41 times.

I have had to replace 6 cartridges because of neck splitting. Other than that, I have had no problems with these cartridges.

A typical load shot with these cartridges would be 14 gr of 4227 behind a
313-165-GC.

Sailman

[felix]

Sailman, what is the maximum, normal, minimum loads you typical shoot in your 303? Ok, I now see your normal load of 14 g 4227. ... felix

[sundog]

Sailman and I shoot at the same range. Even shot our SMLEs at the same time once or twice. I shoot a heavier load of 4227 than he does in my No 4 MkI. That gun has a set of dedicated brass, about 250 pieces. They've been shot a number of times, cast only, starting as factory new. I don't have as many firings on mine as does he, but I haven't lost any either. I use a Redding NS die, and I do lube inside case neck when using it. A Lee collect NS die would be much 'mo betta'. I like the 314299 just swell, but I also have a copy of the Terry Washburn custom Lee mould I think I got from Jump. It makes a good boolit, too, but I just haven't shot enough of them to say how good or bad they are. sundog

[Sailman]

Felix

You asked what is my normal load. I went to my records for the MK-4 Enfield and what I found was quite surprising, I had not realized that the ammount of 4227and 2400 powder for my loads was quite consistent. The following is what I found:

313-165-GC------------------------14 gr of 4227

313-180-GC------------------------14 gr of 4227

314299------------------------------15 gr of 4227

316-200-Gc-------------------------16 gr of 4227

Fat 30--------------------------------15 gr of 4227 or 15 gr of 2400
Not to good of a load for the Fat 30 but the best I could do.


My favorite load is the 314299.

Sailman

[felix]

Thanks, Sailman. Maybe I can get Nick up there to Corky's place/range and we can have a shootout with these contraptions. Personally, I like the model 5 for what it is: a River cruiser. I wonder if being modified to 308 by the Indians some of these problems of accuracy have been fixed. I don't know at this juncture because the maximum range has been no more than a hunnert or so, and the targets have been the size of baseballs. ... felix

[oksmle]

Felix .... If you wanted to formalize the get together just a tad maybe Corky & Orville could arrange a SMLE match. Bet there would be a half dozen shooters show up from Tri-City. Not all of them shoot cast boolits, but the more serious ones do .... :)

oksmle

[felix]

Getting Nick and Tommy up there on a Saturday morning is a joke. I've tried many times, and so has Corky. Corky even has some Garand loads ready to go for them at their request and they both follow the Good Book: the spirit is willing, but the body is not. Well, we'll have to change that one of these days. Nick is currently teaching English (summer semester) at the American University in Lebanon. Tommy is working nights for a Walmart computer systems contractor and seems to be always worn out. ... felix

[Sailman]

SMLE Match

One of the highlights of my shooting year is to attend the Tri-City Annual SMLE Match. What makes it so much fun is that it is a standard Military Bolt Action Match
but everybody has to shoot the same weapon. When shooting the SMLE Match you don't have to compete with folks using other rifles. In addition, you begin to relize that the group sizes you have been shooting is standard with all the other folks on the line.

Sailman

[robertbank]

Interesting discussion boys. Nothing really to add except to say Longbranch versions of the L/E were built in Toronto, Ontario on Longbranch street. They were not built in a "Longbranch factory" in England ad Mike stated. Perhaps that is an indication of the depth of research that went into the article. I'll say this though, the pics were great.

Take Care

Bob

[felix]

Bob, you still got it wrong! The Long Branch Saloon in care of Matt, Chester, Doc, and Kitty. ... felix

[robertbank]

Ha Ha Ha. Ah dear I left myself open to that one for sure. Yup, Chester and the boys are down at the Longbranch having a 25 cent 12 oz. T Bone and a coke (would have typed sasbarila but I have no idea how to spell it).

Sent an email to the Editor on that slip up but heard nothing and no acknowlegement in the follow-up issue indicating the error. Nice to just motor in in blissful ignorance I guess.

Must say I am slowly developing an interest in obtaining a nice L/E. The Aussies are making a new JUngle Carbine in .308 but I can't believe the same old problems with the rear locking lugs won't surface. We have quite a group shooting the old girls up here in competition of sorts. Might be fun to get involved.

Given the Brits attitude towards losing their men in battle. The jerks sent the entire Royal Newfoundland Regiment, (800 men) to their graves in one battle in less than 20 minutes before Canada decided to put our own Generals in charge of our men. It is no wonder their rifles were rather loosely constructed. In WW1 at least, men and their rifles seemed to be an expendable item. "Lions led by Donkeys" is I believe the phrase was for the British Army during the two World Wars. Montgomery being only topped by Haig as leader of the herd. Fortunately by the time WW11 came around we had our own General Officers and Eisenhower was leader of the pack. Since then our forces are integrated with the US which at the very least allows our men to drink cold beer.

Take Care

[Char-Gar]

Robert... In my original letter to Venturino I also metioned that Longbranch was a Canadian arsenal and not British. In addition to to his letter, Mike included mine back and noted in pen ... "Brain Fart... I knew that" .. at that point of the letter.

[Four Fingers of Death]

A chamber cast would help if you were interested in the exact dimensions, but a fired (fireformed) case can and will give you enough information to load accurately and increase your brass life at least somewhat. You just have to accept that full length resizing is not the answer and treat the rifle as if it has an "improved" chamber (because it does, with the oversize condition giving you a greater powder capacity). You wouldn't consider fl sizing with a regular die if you had an IMP chamber, would you? Of course not. Why not? Because it would overwork the brass and you'd get short case life and a tendency towards separations, etc. Don't load them too hot, neck size them until they won't chamber, then either toss them or anneal them, fl size, and refireform them all over again. The only ways to fix the problem are to rebarrel and ream a tight chamber, or to have a custom sizing die made especially for the rifle's oversized chamber. All else is a series of compromises so you can work around it and live with it (kinda sounds like marriage or politics, doesn't it?)

Another option is to rechamber to 7.62x54Russkie. There is an article on the 303 page abouty this. Not all beer and skittles though, there is a bit of fiddling getting the rounds to feed and mags to work properly.

I've enjoyed this thread, I have a refurbished No4 to which I fitted a Singer sight to the other day. I have been going to do this forever, I never realised what an easy job it was. I am good to go now, Lee mould sitting there, rifle sitting there, new brass sitting there, Lee deluxe 303 dies sitting there, Mick sitting there :-)
Mick.

[Four Fingers of Death]

There is nothing wrong with the loose tolerances on a battle rifle, they ain't reloading and the ammo was made all over the world. The rifles had to be able to fire ammo made in a factory with strict quality control in Australia, Canada or England, or maybe from a tin pot factory in upper woop woop.

There are a couple of 'features' of the SMLE, which are regarded as weaknesses by civilian sports shooters, that were regarded as qualities by soldiers.

1) The looseness of the chambers allowed the rifle to work with ammo within a wider range of specs. This is not desirable for us, but a plus for an service rifle.

2) The cock on opening feature, ensures all energy available on opening the action is given to working the bolt and freeing the case in the chamber, no matter how hot or how dirty it was. No energy is absorbed cocking the weapon (you don't need it cocked until you are closing the bolt anyway). Again, desirable for the military, not appreciated by the average sportsman.

I think the English attitude towards engineering can be summed up by a bit of feedback I got from a mechanic working for Land Rover in the 70s at a display in Sydney. I took him to task about the fact that to remove the gearbox, I had to lift the floor and the seats and seat box, etc and manhandle he box trough the cab, because the chassis cross member prevents the gearbox being dropped in the normal manner. His answer was, 'you enjoy the stronger chassis everyday, but every three or four years, you are inconvienenced for an hour or so. That is a worthwhile trade.' Mick.

PS, please excuse the extra post, too much beer. :-(

[9.3X62AL]

My experience with the SMLE rifles is minor, but I have enjoyed my No. 1 Mk III immensely. No case sep's to date, 8 loadings on the same 60 cases after firing factory loads (economy grade R-P). These loads have been 16.0 grains of 2400 or a similar intensity of IMR 4198, and one round of full case/WC-860. Messy, that--lots of unburned powder granules. The F/L sizer die gets backed out 3/4 turn when sizing.

Paper accuracy wasn't great until the boolit diameter got closer to groove depth (.315"). These fatter boolits will not pass through the seating gallery in the 303 seater die, so I use an 8 x 57 seater with good effect. I will be honing out the seating gallery in this die before the next loading sequence in this caliber.

A .312" expander spud (now on order) should make life quite grand indeed. I think boolits were getting shaved or distorted upon seating into necks processed over a .309" expander ball previously used, putting up 1-2 wild flyers out of ten rounds EVERY time.

[robertbank]

JUst a point of interest. The Canadian Rangers - a volunteer reserve arm of the armed forces still use the .303 British. The groups primary purpose is to provide back-up service to local RCMP/Army in the event of an emergency. During WW11 they played a part in costal defense watching out for Japaneese/German Submarines and that sort of thing. They are the only units in Canada that are allowed to take their weapons home with them.

The boys in town meet once a month from shooting practice. I am continually amazed at the speed of which a mag can be emptied with reasonable accuracy with practice.

Had the Canadian Army been allied closer to their American counterpart at the start of that conflict I am quite sure we would have moved to the Garand - designed by a Canadian I might add - but supply and logistics left us with the bolt action rifle for that little event as it did for Korea.

Thank-fully, we have pretty much integrated our services with the US through NATO with cross training now being the norm. Canadian Officers and Men regularily serve in American Units as do American Officers and Men in Canadian Units.

Probably fair to say "The Devils Brigade" was the start of the integration. Now there is a group who have no sense of the 49th nor should they.

Take Care

[StarMetal]

Robert

....have moved to the Garand - designed by a Canadian I might add.
Well Garand, a Canadian, and a human being I might add. [smilie=1::drinks:

Hey just teasing you pardner. That's great for one to have pride in his nationality and country. You're right, he was a Canadian. You know Georg Luger was American born, but had to go to Germany to produce his Luger?

I think what you told us is very interesting, at least to me, and especially that group uses the 303 British yet and mostl the part about being allowed to take it home.

Keep up the interesting stuff.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, the Swiss are assigned and given their tools for life. No armory per se because every house is one. If you go by a beer joint up in the hills, say on a tour, you might see a bunch of bicycles with full autos on the handlebars while the true owners, by definition, are having a cool one after "practice". ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Yes I'm very aware of the Swiss regulations, but never thought basically anti-gun Canada would have such a thing.

Joe

[NickSS]

I have shot SMLEs for over 40 years and love them all that time. The older ones made before WW I and up to about 1916 had tighter chambers than the ones made later. To see this all you need do is fire a factory shell in the rifle and compare the empty to the unfired shell. You will see that the shoulder of the case has been blown forward and is rounded in profile. I have found that if I size the shell to the point where the neck is sized to the point of where it just touches the sholder of the case (neck size) I can get almost unlimited reloading from that shell. I have some now that I have reloaded up to 19 times with no losses due to head separation. However if I full length resize after two or three reloadings I loose cases at a fenominal rate. Therefore, for long case life separate you brass to the particular rifel and neck size it. Because of the body taper this can be done with the regular FL sizing die juse by setting it short.

[Bigjohn]

G'day again from downunder,

I had some visitors this last week, Sandy and Murray; Murray is a keen shooter willing to take on most calibres (at least once).

During the quiet times we would talk about issues relating to shooting various firearms and both of us own one or more .303" British Rifles.

I mentioned this thread to him and gave him a print out to read later when they returned home.

With Murray having access to more clubs up north than I do plus a few more years of experience under the belt; he has mentioned that the .303 was and is not the only cartridge which requires care with the headspacing. From years past he recalls seeing cautions in various articles refering to the .22 Hornet, .225 Winchester, .220 Swift, .30/30 Winchester, etc; all requiring headspacing from the shoulder.

I recall one Anschutz .22 Hornet that regularly seperated at the head end of the case when firing reloaded ammunition. I believe the owner became so fustrated with it he sold it off.

All of the cartridge mentioned previously can be successfully reloaded many times over without the likelyhood of the head seperating if headspacing is done from the shoulder.

It is really a side issue that the SMLE and family have oversize chambers and that extra care should be taken when reloading ammunition for them.

As a side note; I recall a article by Harvey Donaldson where he mentioned still loading some of the original .220 Swift cases by Winchester. They were in plain unmarked packets as Winchester had not received the printed packaging at that time.

Anyway, I will continue to shoot my Lee Enfield's and watch my reloading.

John.

[Char-Gar]

BigJohn... For shure and for certain, many rifles with long chambers or reloading dies that set the case shoulder back have problems with case seperation. It is a good idea for any rimmed or belted case to be reloaded to headspace on the shoulder, even though they should headspace on the rim or belt. Lots of problem can be avoided that way.

However, the reason for the whole thread was an article whereby the author said the SMLE case seperations were a result the rear locking bolt rather than the long chamber.

There is no question that 303 cases can be sized to headspace on the shoulder and case life greatly extended. That was the purpose of the thread..but threads morph and take on lives of their own.

I shure appreciate you guys from Down Under on this board. You bring allot to this community. I am glad to see the shooting community is still alive inspite of some of the legal barriers you guys face.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Glad to be a part of the board, I have learnt a lot on this board and it has also made me remember stuff I had learned but forgotten. Mick.

[PAT303]

I have to agree with Mick,i've learnt more about cast shooting from this site than anywhere else. If your happy with Australians on your board, where happy to stay PAT

[Bigjohn]

In the past, I have enjoyed reading a lot of what was written by Mike and I guess with hindsight most of it was because he was telling a good story with only a little technical information. The article upon which this thread is based has or did not make it this far down south, downunder so I can not report on what he wrote.

I would say that most of us aussie's automatically adjust for the chamber 'issue' (if we could call it that) in this rifles, as most Australians grew up with a SMLE in hand.

When I reload for my rifle(s), I use a LEE Collett die set or the SIMPLEX neck sizer and since I only load cast LYMAN 314299 @ .314" in front of IMR 4320 or 4064; I have not had any problems with cases. I can honestly say the only cases I have had which split are some old ex mil. loads and only around the shoulder area.

I would be interested in reading the article which we are discussing here to see what Mike had to say. Does anyone have the details? Some shooting publications don't make it down this far.

Many thanks,
:drinks:
John.

[robertbank]

Well he had the .303 cartridge associated with the Lee Enfield rifle pretty much nailed down. The rest of the article was fluff with our Longbranch rifles being made in England.

Take Care

Bob

ps Pictures were nice.

[PAT303]

I think the article everyone is tarking about was in guns australia mag a few months ago and the writer just wrote negative about the whole thing with next to nothing about sizing cases to the chamber or working up loads for the rifle in general. I don't think many writers try to understand the idiosyncrasies of different rifes and if it does'nt shoot minute a angle out of the box it's no good. The stupid thing is alot of shooters who really push that probably could'nt hit a barn using field position's which is what the rifles wre made for. Pat