Pure Lead in the .416 Rigby

[BruceB]

My sole .416 mould is the RCBS 416-350. In WW, this casts a 365-grain boolit at about .4165 diameter, and it works rather nicely in my Ruger #1.

I'm just starting a project to TRY finding a reliably-expanding cast-bullet load for a hunt this fall, and, deciding to start at the worst-possible end of the spectrum, I cast up some pure-lead boolits. These weighed-in at 369.8 grains, average of ten bullets.

My goal is to find a decent-shooting load at 2000 fps, since there's so much bullet weight available to supply the horsepower, and 2000 will offer a reasonable trajectory to 200 yards. Therefore, I selected a 52.0-grain charge of 5744 with dacron filler, which has given me just over 2000 fps in many repetitions with good accuracy.

Yesterday I hied meself forth to a gravel pit and set up Der Schuetzenwagen at 100 yards. A control group of five was fired with WW bullets, and yielded a 1.5" group, warming up the barrel and conditioning the bore as well (I hoped).

I then fired twenty rounds of pure-lead loads. There was NO visible leading, streaking, or other pollution of the bore! It remained as shiny-bright as it had been after the WW loads. The accuracy was noticeably poorer than the WW bullets delivered, but the 5-rounders were still in the 2.5"-3.5" area and all holes were nice and round. This accuracy level gives me considerable confidence, because I'm not all that attached to the pure-lead idea. I'm now going to move to a 50/50 mix of WW/lead, and see what I can get for groups with that alloy. I expect it'll do all right. If so, I'll try differential annealing as mentioned here recently, and soften-up the noses as much as is practical.

Since un-hardened WW alloy has worked well on game animals for others here, I expect that the softer metal may do even better. I'd like to have the bullet hang together without losing much weight while still expanding to a large degree, and this just might be the way to do it.

BTW, I fired five rounds yesterday with paper-patched 416-350s in pure lead
Grouping was about the same as unpatched bullets at 3.4", but I found that the patch increased the neck diameter of the cartridge enough that it took a VERY firm push to seat the round in the chamber. I had to use the handle end of a 3/8" breaker bar as a pusher to seat it far enough to raise the breechblock. Not exactly a great routine for the hunting field....

[powderburnerr]

Bruce why dont you try a two part bullet front 1/2 lead and the back half ww this will give you the equivelant of a nosler partition

just use a empty case for a ladle so as to get the same in the mould each time................ Dean

[Wayne Smith]

Bruce

Powderburner's right, but I would suggest that you use a 45 ACP case as your pure lead ladle. You can cut it down until it gives you just the amount of pure lead that you want in the nose. Use a heavy guage wire twisted around it as a handle, and you will probably want to put a wooden handle on that.

When you cast, have both pots present, ladle in the lead, then ladle in the WW. Unless the mold is very hot the lead will set up before the WW hit. This is what you want, you will probably see a seam or mark where the transition is. That's fine, they will hold together. If they mix, cool your mold a little before casting the next one.

[nighthunter]

Bruce ..... bullet hardness is a matter of function. My father worked for the telephone company for 45 years and he started me on bullet casting about 35 years ago. Working for the phone company he had access to tremendous amounts of cable sheathing and we put it to good use. I've shot a lot of pure lead bullets and I really think that the quality of the lube is more important than the hardness of the bullet. I still have a stockpile of nearly pure lead and I add 15% to my wheel weights when I batch them. I do not have a problem of any sort with leading from 22 hornet to 45/70. I have used 40% lead in the wheel weights with no adverse effects with magnum handgun loads. Its all in the lube. Any takers on this one?

[Buckshot]

.............Paul Matthews got accuracy as good as any other he'd seen with pure lead in a Marlin M95, 45-70 at 1850 fps (forget boolit wieght). I think Jumptrap used pure lead in his M95 to harvest a deer AFTER the slug went through a sapling!

I would like to see this test (since you're doing all the work:shock:), and that would be to add 20%, then 40% then 60% WW to the pure lead, just casting enough of each to give you 10 good slugs of each alloy. If the accuracy gets better as you go up, then you'll know what you need to do. At least to a point where you feel accuracy is good enough and the alloy is soft enough for your needs.

Once that is established you can do as Nighthunter suggested and maybe try a different lube. I know after my high velocity test with the Krag that the hi temp lube sure picked up where the Javalina left off.

BTW, I also glad you're the one doing the shooting, too:D.

...............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

My goal is to find a decent-shooting load at 2000 fps, since there's so much bullet weight available to supply the horsepower, and 2000 will offer a reasonable trajectory to 200 yards.

This accuracy level gives me considerable confidence, because I'm not all that attached to the pure-lead idea. I'm now going to move to a 50/50 mix of WW/lead, and see what I can get for groups with that alloy. I expect it'll do all right. If so, I'll try differential annealing as mentioned here recently, and soften-up the noses as much as is practical.

Since un-hardened WW alloy has worked well on game animals for others here, I expect that the softer metal may do even better. I'd like to have the bullet hang together without losing much weight while still expanding to a large degree, and this just might be the way to do it.



Bruce,

I am glad to see someone going this route of testing. Normally, I want people to arive at a conclusion free of suggestion so I can see the results. But here I see a safety factor. Most people are shocked to see just how soft they can actually go. My guess is that you would have even seen better accuracy had you used a slower powder.

At the same time I am also glad to see you abandoning the pure lead because of the safety factor. Pure lead works .... until it don't. The failure comes abruptly when the lube fails because of heat. When it does, it just doesn't lead. It can plug. This is where I figure the old term putty plug comes from. Especialy in cartridges where the pressure really drops fast as it moves toward the muzzle because of bore size. Faster powders accenuate the problem just for that reason.

I spent some 3 years of hardness testing in wheelers and rifles. Because of the effect of soft lead, I have more confidence in shooting soft lead in a rifle because of the strength of the action. I have blown quite a few cases, luckily only ruining a few stocks. I played with softer mixes in general for another 10 -12 years hunting before I finally settled on what I use now. For 2000 to 2400 fps I use 14 on light game. If I wanted to hunt heavier game, I would go up to 16 before I uped weight significantly or considered cutting velocity.

Some things to consider in your hardness project. Which mix at 2000 fps deforms more in light game, 8 BHN or 12 BHN? Answer: You can't tell. There is a difference in how fast .... they deform (at that velocity), but not in overall deformation. Because of the slower deformation rate, the 12 will penetrate farther assuming both bullets weigh the same. If you add tin, then both will hang together equally well for weight retention. But one hardness handles heavy bone better. The 12.

So hardness does have some merit unless you want massive bullet weight. Remember, JDL used pure lead and 500 grains in a 45-70 on an Elk broadside and recovered the slug. Think about that for a minute. That's about 2" of hair, hide, and bone on the way in and nothing but air inbetween if he missed the heart. And his strike velocity was way less. Less velocity, less deformation, .... more penetration. So hardness is a very fluid and changing variable to consider once velocity and meplat width are taken into consideration.

When you think you have what you want, I recommend that you use the wet news print / jug test just to see where you are. Set it up based on what you expect to encounter. Play with ranges. It can mean the difference between satisfaction .... and bewilderment.

[JDL]

Bruce,
I think for deer size game, the pure lead boolits work great and I don't know if it can be improved on. Massive tissue destruction and complete penetration with any resonable angle with very little bloodshot meat!
I didn't notice what size of game you were hunting but, as BA pointed out, my 510 grain, plain lead loads at 1650 fps won't completely penetrate full grown elk. The cow I shot in '92 stopped the slug, which expanded to 15/16" in a perfect mushroom, just under the hide on the off side and it went between the ribs with no bone being hit. The bull in '93 was about the same except, a rib was hit upon entering and the mushroom was flattened somewhat.
If you take other than broadside shots on game the size of elk (I don't with cast), I really think a harder boolit is in order. On the other hand, the notes I wrote after dressing the elk state, "massive destruction to the lungs and top of the heart was evident". I am now working with a boolit with enough tin added to make it 9.25 on the BHN scale and it is very encouraging so far but, I'm not there yet. Maybe the guys employing the dual alloy boolits are on the right track but, that seems to be too labor intensive for me-----that statement from one who paper patches?? Best of luck-JDL

[Greg]

Bruce-

The project that I’ve been working on is a 358156 HP bullet in the 357 Magnum. I want a ductile alloy that will expand but not fragment at 1700 fps.

The alloy that I’ve started working with is equal parts wheel weights and pure lead. I cast a few Lee 358-158 RF’s (nice meplat for hardness testing) at 740º and air cooled - BHN of 6 after 72 hours. I put some in the oven starting at 450º and increased the temp by 10º each half hour...I ran the oven up to 500º and never did get them to slump. Yes, I shook the pie tin each time...hard.

Cast at 740º Heat Treated at 430º for 30minutes for a BHN of @ 15-16 after 72 hours.

Cast at 740º Heat Treated at 465º for 30minutes for a BHN of @ 18-19 after 72 hours.

I want to duplicate the first loads that I had tested, Lyman 358156 cast of wheel weights with a BHN of 15 which did not lead in my 686 even at 1700 fps.

What this alloy might do in your 416 is open for questions...But, I believe that a boolit heat treated to the same BHN ‘should’ shoot just as accurately regardless the alloy used. With twice the lead or half the antimony it ‘should’ mushroom not fracture.

At least, that’s what I’m hoping for.

God Bless ya’ll
Greg

[JohnH]

Bruce, you dont say what you are planning to hunt. My hunting experience is limited to whitetails in the southeast. I've never even had what I would call a long shot, one at 80 all the rest at 40 yards and less. The alloy I've used to take 2 deer with was WW and Lino at 50/50 (best I can recall) the other was pure lead. The first two were from a 44 Magnum rifle at 1275 fps, the third was pure lead from a 45-70. I'm not so sure that alloy is as important as nose form, the object is to make 'em bleed.

Theres more ink and cyber space spent cussin' and discussin' this subject, and I don't believe we'll ever see a definative answer that will work for everyone. There are several approaches, each works and has both supporters and detractors. Big trick is to choose one and follow the method.

The Lyman 48th edition has a nice photo of a cast bullet that was used to take a hog (in the cast bullet section) They say it was about 10 BHN. This is interesting, WW runs about 9-10 and 20:1 is 10 BHN 20:1 is an old and revered metal for bullets and hunting in some circles. So I'm going to begin my own spearmentin at this range. I think more important than will the bullet expand, is will it stay together after it hits a heavy bone

I shot a deer with my 357 Maximum using the Hornady 180 XTP at about 25 yards. The bullet hit the foreleg bone just below the shoulder, shattering it, drove shards of it into the lungs, peirced the heart leaving a 1.5" hole and exited breaking 2 ribs, exit hole was caliber size. Impact velocity was the best part of 2030 fps as I get 2060 at the muzzle muzzle on that load.

I want my cast bullet to do that. Too many report good success with plain ol WW to ignore, and 20:1 offers the same level of hardness but what should be greater ductility. I think somewhere around 10 BHN is the place to be.

[BruceB]

Many thanks for the replies. There are obviously several ways of approaching the question of reliable expansion with cast boolits. I believe that all the recommended methods will work fine once the details are sorted out.

The proposed quarry is Alberta white-tail deer. We'll be mainly hunting elk, but in primo trophy-white-tail country, where B&C-size bucks are quite common and deer weight often runs above 400 pounds on the hoof.

The hunting strategy will see us hunting elk in the early mornings, but the country and local elk habits make afternoon hunting for the big guys impractical. Therefore, we'll plan to hunt elk/a.m. and deer/p.m. ....tough life, eh wot???

My 'designated' elk rifle will be a .338 with Partitions, but the Rigby should be a fine deer rifle (.416 Rigby? deer rifle? yeah, right!) with softish cast bullets. Out to 200 yards with a decent 2000-fps load as mentioned, I won't feel one bit handicapped. The rifle has never been on a hunt, so I figger this is a great opportunity to get it some fresh air. I also wouldn't feel shy about slapping one of these RCBS bullets into any unfortunate elk or black bear that happens by within reasonable range when we're hunting deer. Bear season will also be open BTW.

My next experiment will be with 50/50 WW/lead boolits, and if accuracy is OK I intend to try some newspaper wet-pack with fresh bones stuck in the middle. I HOPE to catch some boolits for examination. The 20:1 mix has a lot of history behind it, with great success, and I reckon that a similar BHN with WW/pb should perform much the same chores very well. We'll see.

This is a lot more fun than simply buying a box of commercial bullets and corking some cases with them! I'd just about forgotten what an unchallenging activity "normal" handloading is, compared to this. I have to confess to buying several hundred Sierra Matchkings in anticipation of the arrival of my Fulton M14, but that's different since they'll be used as the 'control load' for other experiments in that rifle.

[billw]

Bruce, You might consider 1:1 or 1:2 WW:Pb, heat treat at 450F, quench quickly but don't drop the bullets; use an oven mitt to remove the bullet container from the oven and put them and the container quickly in a large water filled container; a tuna can will work if you punch some holes in the bottom to let in the water. Age them 1-3 days to harden fully, and if possible, test the bhn. Then, one by one, place each bullet in a deep bottle cap covering the base with water, and then heat the nose with a propane torch, grain alcohol, or one of those butane torches from Radio Shack, even a cheap torch cigarette lighter will work. You could quicken the process with a larger container for more bullets, but do it the easy way until you get the process right. Heat the nose for a timed few seconds, don't melt the bullet. If a flat nose, a drop of water will boil off when the nose is annealed. Then recheck bhn to verify the base is still hard, 24 bhn is good for base, and nose should be as cast bhn, 8-10 bhn. If you don't have a bhn tool, cut a sample with side cutters thru the nose; it should cut smoothly thru. The base should cut with much more difficulty. This bullet weight at 2000 MV will do the job.