arrrgggg, why is it so hard to find what I want in a mold?

[machinisttx]

I want another 358429, but not in aluminum. Looking at the lyman mold, it's got some goofy half sphere alignment pins...with almost zero bearing surface in the alignment holes. I can't help but think the holes are going to egg out, my suspicion being confirmed by some heavily used Lyman/Ideal molds on fleagay.

I want a 429421 and a 454424(along with some others), same problem as above. In fact...RCBS, Lyman, and Saeco use the same, IMHO defective, system.

I want hardened alignment PINS and holes with a replaceable hardened steel bushing. This is one feature I like on the 6 banger lee molds....I just don't like that they are aluminum.

Further, I want molds designed for a proper set of handles. IOW, a 4 cavity mold should use 4 cavity handles....not six cavity handles that are made with a different opening/closing arc to allow for longer blocks. Alternatively, the 4 cavity blocks could be made the same length as the 6 cavity blocks the handles are designed for, and the alignment pins put in the same place as the six cavity blocks. This would eliminate any issues with the alignment pins sticking due to the handle arc not being right. A potential problem would be getting the blocks hot enough or keeping them hot enough...especially with aluminum.

Further still, the blocks should cast a correct diameter bullet. I shouldn't have to size a bullet down over .003" to make it fit a correctly made gun. The bullet shouldn't be undersize either. Likewise, the forward and middle driving bands of a revolver bullet shouldn't be significantly narrower than the base band. If the forward and middle bands are too narrow, the bullet is just going to skid when it hits the rifling, and probably will leave some lead that will damage the base band.

Finally, is price an issue? Somewhat, but people have always been willing to pay for quality products that are designed for longevity. I don't see where the substitution of real alignment pins in the Lyman/RCBS/Saeco molds would add any significant cost. The addition of a replaceable bushing would probably add to it slightly, but considering that the longevity of the mold would be greatly increased relative to the cost, I fail to see an issue.

[GLL]

Call Ballisti-Cast ! Just tell them what alloy you are using and what you size to ! Bring wallet ! :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/1E185946BE4F652/orig.jpg

[beanflip]

:drinks:money can by any mold

[Calamity Jake]

CBE and Mountain molds will make just about anything you want out of the material you want, but there going to be made to fit mass produced handles

[anachronism]

Those "goofy half sphere alignment pins" are what everybody uses. Responsible owners check their moulds periodically & tap the pins out to compensate for wear. The wear is usually caused by the user closing the mould blocks with the handles & not using the their other hand to help the blocks align as they close. What the hell, it's only fifty bucks...
For a quality steel mould, try SAECO.

[Shiloh]

I'd like a 311299 that drops a .3115 boolit with a .3015 nose. The two I have been familiar with, dropped a .310 boolit with a .298 nose. Definitely NOT a nose rider.

Anyone know what a .311284 measures at???

Shiloh

[deltaenterprizes]

You are a machinist, modify the mold to suit your wants. Lee sells the pin sets and so does Magma or make your own.

[HORNET]

Put a .005/.010 chamfer on the opening of the alignment holes to make it more damage resistant and reset the pins so the mold takes a mild squeeze to close when it's in the handles. Check it before each use for any perceptible 'play' and re-tune as needed. Make sure the handles are tightened up and maintained as well as that they fit the blocks correctly. That "system" will last a LONG time if not actually abused.
BTW, I do have a couple of OLD Ideal molds that have worn to the point that the pins will enter into the holes quite a distance ( .094 or so, by eyeball) and they are a real PITA to run with NO significant improvement detectable over the ones that just align off the 'ball' ends on the pins. Unless they're operated very carefully, the pins tend to bind on opening AND closing. They don't get much use.

[montana_charlie]

arrrgggg, why is it so hard to find what I want in a mold?
Because you want moulds with 'custom features', but you're only looking at 'off the shelf' sources.

You are a machinist, and you know what you want. So, make it.

If you can't make your own moulds, buy off the shelf moulds and modify the pin/hole system to your specifications.

A custom mould maker can probably build what you want, but the extra time required to put in the special alignment features will cut into his ability to serve other customers. Be prepared to make that worth his while...

CM

[machinisttx]

Because you want moulds with 'custom features', but you're only looking at 'off the shelf' sources.

You are a machinist, and you know what you want. So, make it.

If you can't make your own moulds, buy off the shelf moulds and modify the pin/hole system to your specifications.

A custom mould maker can probably build what you want, but the extra time required to put in the special alignment features will cut into his ability to serve other customers. Be prepared to make that worth his while...

CM

I considered the options, and to be perfectly honest, the cost to make one from scratch means I could likely buy several off the shelf molds... Custom ground cutters aren't cheap, and I have no intention of ordering custom tooling for one job and then tossing it in a drawer somewhere. Nor do I have any inclination toward manufacturing any for sale. If I ever end up around EDM work again, I may make some electrodes and burn a set of blocks...but right now that isn't likely either.

Modification...which voids the manufacturers warranty and may possibly ruin the mold entirely if a mistake is made.

Custom, obviously the possible remedy, probably adds enough to buy two off the shelf molds...possibly more.

The long and short of it is that there isn't a good solution IMO.

[405]

I'd like a 311299 that drops a .3115 boolit with a .3015 nose. The two I have been familiar with, dropped a .310 boolit with a .298 nose. Definitely NOT a nose rider.

Anyone know what a .311284 measures at???

Shiloh

I don't have a 311284, however since you asked, I have a 314299. With an alloy very close to Lyman #2 at 14-15 BHN, it drops a nose at .3015. The drive bands drop at about 313-314. No reason you couldn't size anywhere between about .310 and .313 and have the bore rider you're after- maybe?

I size mine to .310 and shoot them in 03 and 03A3 Springfields with good results.

[Bloodman14]

This arguement makes sense; how about getting with NOE, CBE or Mountain Molds, etc., and working this problem out for the future?

[Dale53]

The truth of the matter is if you handle the moulds carefully, they will last forever and a day. If you don't, you can ruin a set of mould blocks in one use.

I have moulds I have had for many years and they are still mechanically perfect after tens of thousands of bullets.

The key is to handle them GENTLY, I mean GENTLY, and lube them with Bullshop Sprue Plate lube.

FWIW
Dale53

[JIMinPHX]

Those crumby little round pins actually hold up pretty well in iron molds. When they do get wallowed, you can tap them out a little further & they will pick up location on a fresh area of the mating female. If it really bothers you that much, you can find hardened locating pins & sleeves in the jig & fixture section of the MSC big book.

Red River Rick was making some pretty nice looking custom handles. You might want to look into what he can offer you.

If you are worried about the expense of grinding up a custom cherry & want to find a way around doing that, then you might want to consider my little lathe fixture trick from this thread - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=45741

The bare blocks really weren't that tough to make. I made mine out of 6061, but other board members have made them out of steel before with good results too.

Anything can be done if you put your mind to it.

[jdgabbard]

I would like to see companies offering these same features... I think the two of us think quite alike. I don't baby my molds. But I do treat them well. And I'd like to see every mold I own and will own last into eternity.

[machinisttx]

Those crumby little round pins actually hold up pretty well in iron molds. When they do get wallowed, you can tap them out a little further & they will pick up location on a fresh area of the mating female. If it really bothers you that much, you can find hardened locating pins & sleeves in the jig & fixture section of the MSC big book.

Red River Rick was making some pretty nice looking custom handles. You might want to look into what he can offer you.

If you are worried about the expense of grinding up a custom cherry & want to find a way around doing that, then you might want to consider my little lathe fixture trick from this thread - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=45741

The bare blocks really weren't that tough to make. I made mine out of 6061, but other board members have made them out of steel before with good results too.

Anything can be done if you put your mind to it.

I guess I've been running mills too long. I wasn't even thinking about boring my own on a lathe. Come to think of it, I don't even remember the last time I did lathe work. I guess this is the kick in the pants I needed to finally get my South Bend Heavy Ten wired up....especially since my big toolbox from the other job is now sitting beside it. Off to buy a variable frequency drive I suppose. :grin:

Oh, here is a list of the coefficient of thermal expansion for various materials. Machinery's handbook has a very detailed section on the required calculations and formulas. http://www.wisetool.com/designation/te.htm

[longbow]

machinisttx:

I tend to agree with many of the above comments on the little round ended pins and iron moulds ~ I have several Lyman, RCBS and Ohaus moulds that I have had for decades and many have been used quite a bit. No wear or problems with any adn I don't expect any problems.

As for casting size, well I have to agree with you, many moulds do not cast to spec and in my experience are normally undersize. Those can be lapped out to suit. I have lapped several moulds successfully. Oversize, well you have to size 'em down. I like ot shoot as cast so try to make sure the mould suits the bore requirements.

My personal preference is for iron moulds but properly handled, there is nothing wrong with aluminum. Most quality aluminum moulds have steel alignment pins anyway.

If you are inclined to make your own moulds Jim has a good thread which you already know and theperfessor also has an excellent write up which I have downloaded but cannot find a link to. If you want a copy PM me and I will e-mail it ~ or maybe theperfessor can provide a link if he is reading.

Also, you should be able to make a cherry easily enough if you have access to a lathe and milling machine. I make D bits with only a lathe and hand tools. I have also lathe bored split moulds though I have only made a couple. There are several people here who are better machinist than I and have made many more moulds so are good references. Do a search on mould making (or for most of you guys, mold making)

A form tool will also produce a nice cavity and is easy to make.

Lots of options to make what you want if it isn't available!

Longbow

[machinisttx]

To be perfectly honest, I have access to several tool and cutter grinders. The problem though is that the place doesn't know even a quarter of what can be accomplished with them if they would spend a few bucks and buy good wheels, along with all the parts and pieces("accessories") the machines are missing. I could probably grind a serviceable cutting with what they have, given the time to do it, but I don't get any time to play. The guy that is in there all the time isn't really a tool grinder, and I don't know that he could make what I need.

Lathe tools are MUCH easier to form grind and make right. Oh how I wish I'd made good use of my time at a previous job.....with the optical wheel dresser and some blank lathe bits.

[JIMinPHX]

Off to buy a variable frequency drive I suppose. :grin:


Frequency drives can really make a spindle user friendly. I love those things. If you take a quick look here- http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=49233&page=2 you can see an inexpensive little waterproof control box that I like to use when I hook one up on a machine tool.

[JIMinPHX]

I guess this is the kick in the pants I needed to finally get my South Bend Heavy Ten wired up.

I'm not familiar with the "heavy ten" model. Is that a CNC or just a regular old engine lathe?

[Marvin S]

Maybe just ream and install oversize pins over time if needed. I have found for myself that lathe boring was not for me as I broke to many form tools. I had better success with making a cherry as described in some info I found in maybe an old article on the net. I used 7075-T6 for my blocks and had good luck. Plus at the end I still have the cherry for the 43 Spanish.
I use the Westinghouse VFD on my 14x46 clausing at home and really like it. So they do work well and are worth a try to get you're old South Bend up and running.

[Marvin S]

By the way I did not use any grinders to make the Cherry's, just a manual lathe to turn the blank then off to a index head or spacer to mill the cutter flutes then heat treat.

[JIMinPHX]

By the way I did not use any grinders to make the Cherry's, just a manual lathe to turn the blank then off to a index head or spacer to mill the cutter flutes then heat treat.

No clearance angle behind the cutting surface?

[Marvin S]

No clearance angle behind the cutting surface?

Worked just like a thread cutting tap. The mould was posted under special projects before the board was changed.

[machinisttx]

Worked just like a thread cutting tap. The mould was posted under special projects before the board was changed.

Taps have relief. It's more elliptical, like what you'll find on a single flute countersink though.

[machinisttx]

I'm not familiar with the "heavy ten" model. Is that a CNC or just a regular old engine lathe?

South Bend made two models(with more variations) of 10" lathe. The first, and more common, is the 10L, or "Light" Ten. These use a lot of common parts with the common 9" machines, and IIRC, have the same spindle bore size. The Heavy Ten has a much larger spindle bore and a lot of parts aren't interchangeable with the 9" or 10L.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b20/imakechips/100_0201.jpg

[deltaenterprizes]

The Magma pins just need size "F" holes reamed in the blocks and are pressed in

[JIMinPHX]

A picture is worth a thousand words. I've run one just like that before, as well as a few much older southbenders. Does that one have the taper attachment on the back side of the carriage?

[machinisttx]

Jim, unfortunately, no. It didn't have one when I bought it, and I haven't watched ebay enough to buy one. I did find a lever type collet attachment for it, now I just need a four jaw and the basics are covered. I'll have to pick up a steady rest and follow rest eventually. It's fairly tight, but the leadscrew for the compound is badly worn. I'm guessing someone used the compound exclusively when threading, rather than feeding straight in with the cross slide and then taking a light finishing cut with the compound. Oddly enough, the cross slide is one for one while the compound is a two for one.

IIRC, that one left the factory in January of 1952. I believe the underdrive cabinet was also used on the 10L and 9" models as well.

[Marvin S]

Guess I just got lucky after doing machine work for the USAF all these years.

[JIMinPHX]

That taper gizmo was the one thing that I never quite got the hang of on that machine. The one I used didn't give me very consistent results. I may just not have known all the necessary tricks to make it work right.

Nut & screw assemblies in compounds are not that hard to change. Here are pictures of a refurb I did a month or two ago.

[JIMinPHX]

Marvin, That's a pretty nice looking set of blocks you made there.

How did you make the cavity cut? Did you do it by just moving the custom shaped tool sideways into the blocks? Did you clamp the blocks together & set them up on a turntable to spin them around an undersized tool & control the cavity diameter with the offset from center? Did you do it some other way?

The finish looks real good. It's better that I would have expected from a cutter with zero chip clearance. I'm wondering if there is some trick to the way that you run that type of tool. Anytime that I've tried to run a tool like that, I've smeared chips into the work face & marred my finish.

[Marvin S]

I may have over simplified the making of the cherry a little but not by much. I done some hand work with swiss files to put a touch of relief on the cutter and selected a ball nose mill that would give me some hook to the L/E just like a tap.
I then hogged out the excess material with drill bits/center cut endmills. Then each half was dialed to roughly center of the cutter. Then the blocks where mounted in handles with guide pins that ran full length through the blocks and squeezed together at about 80 spindle RPM.

This was my second attempt at making one as the first was an attempt at lathe boring and my form tool broke so I give that up. I think the article was sent to me by someone on cast bullet assoc from an old 1960 handloader mag. I had the PDF on my last laptop till some A#%hole stole it.
I may make another mold soon but will change a couple things that I learned from the last one.
I do have full CNC capabilities but have not mastered them yet and am hard headed. Remember you can always tell a German but you can't tell him much.
PS I did get a brand new Wilton self centering vice and may try that next time.

[deltaenterprizes]

A centering vise works wonders, you will need to make a set of jaws to hold the blocks.ne of the members here made his own vise and I used his design to make my jaws for my vise.

[machinisttx]

I may have over simplified the making of the cherry a little but not by much. I done some hand work with swiss files to put a touch of relief on the cutter and selected a ball nose mill that would give me some hook to the L/E just like a tap.
I then hogged out the excess material with drill bits/center cut endmills. Then each half was dialed to roughly center of the cutter. Then the blocks where mounted in handles with guide pins that ran full length through the blocks and squeezed together at about 80 spindle RPM.

This was my second attempt at making one as the first was an attempt at lathe boring and my form tool broke so I give that up. I think the article was sent to me by someone on cast bullet assoc from an old 1960 handloader mag. I had the PDF on my last laptop till some A#%hole stole it.
I may make another mold soon but will change a couple things that I learned from the last one.
I do have full CNC capabilities but have not mastered them yet and am hard headed. Remember you can always tell a German but you can't tell him much.
PS I did get a brand new Wilton self centering vice and may try that next time.

What controller and machine?

If it's standard Fanuc or Fanuc based and you're having trouble with circular interpolation, remember that G17 is X/Y plane, G18 is X/Z plane, and G19 is Y/Z plane. Also remember that when you're programming a radius, the X/Y/Z coordinates in something like

G3 X2. Y4. I2. J4.

are where you are going and the I/J/K values are where the cutter currently is. So, the line simply states where you are going and where you currently are. I have a diagram somewhere that makes it easy to understand whether the I/J/K values should be positive or negative, depending on where the cutter engages zero.

Edit: If you're programming by hand, M98 and M99 are your best friend when repetitive cuts must be made at different depths. Alternating the use of G90/G91 in the right spots makes M98/M99 even more useful for such things. :)

[Marvin S]

I have the Haas TL-1 with a Hass TM-1 on the way. Also using Feature Cam 3D turn and mill. I just need to find more time play with them. To many deployments for just a two man shop. I have got some use out of the lathe just programming from the control head.

[JIMinPHX]

It's been my experience that things like Miscellaneous functions (M1, M2, M99, etc.) tend to vary from machine to machine, even if the same controller is used. G code has different flavors too. I used to write a lot of G code by hand, but it's been a while now.

[JIMinPHX]

you can always tell a German but you can't tell him much.


I've worked with a couple of old school German machinists in the past. I have a few good stories coming back to me now. It's amazing what some of the old timers could do with a mill file.

[machinisttx]

I have the Haas TL-1 with a Hass TM-1 on the way. Also using Feature Cam 3D turn and mill. I just need to find more time play with them. To many deployments for just a two man shop. I have got some use out of the lathe just programming from the control head.

I believe that HAAS is pretty darn close to standard Fanuc. The one I ran had a few code differences, but not anything that isn't to be expected between various machines.

[bearcove]

[QUOTE=machinisttx;762134]I considered the options, and to be perfectly honest, the cost to make one from scratch means I could likely buy several off the shelf molds... Custom ground cutters aren't cheap, and I have no intention of ordering custom tooling for one job and then tossing it in a drawer somewhere.

Cut your own cherry. You are a machinist? right?

[machinisttx]

[QUOTE=machinisttx;762134]I considered the options, and to be perfectly honest, the cost to make one from scratch means I could likely buy several off the shelf molds... Custom ground cutters aren't cheap, and I have no intention of ordering custom tooling for one job and then tossing it in a drawer somewhere.

Cut your own cherry. You are a machinist? right?

Try reading the entire thread.

[bearcove]

I have a life outside of reading three pages of posts. I am not a journeyman machinist but have most of the tools and knowledge to make a mold. When I finish building my boat and house then I will start doing my own mold making and gunsmithing. You said you are a machinist who does it with precision.

A mold should be in a precision machinist's grasp.