Help With a Golden Oldie...

[rocklock]

Anyone have any experience with the .38 S&W with black powder?

I recently acquired a S&W 3rd Model DA and in deference to it's age don't want to shoot smokeless.

Thanks,

Mike

[Bret4207]

Is this one of the top break models? I'm not up on the lingo S+W colectors use. I have the S+W 38 Pefected model, the one with the top break and side latch. I've used factory somkeless and some loads using small amounts of Bullseye and Red Dot IIRC. Sorry, no black powder info.

[rocklock]

Yes, it's one of the earlier top-breaks. Here's a couple of pics:

http://public.fotki.com/rocklock/sw/

Mechanically, it locks up tighter than any top break I've ever used. The pics make the finish look worse than it is - the dark areas are just where the nickle is gone, not rust.

[Buckshot]

...............Neat looking little pistol. I have an Iver Johnson I bought a few months ago, below:

http://www.fototime.com/CD1F80B43CD4C22/standard.jpg

It is in V-G condition. It's also an amazingly fine shooter considerin the sights it is plagued with! One problem is that it does have a rather large bbl-cylinder gap whcih must be about .016". When I shoot it every now and then I can feel a 'peck' on my cheek or chin. How this bit (of whatever) can travel almost straight back is an amazement.

A friend of mine became enamored with these little pocket pistols some years back and has accumilated quite a collection. One of his nicest ones is also one of the oldest. It's a breaktop S&W that was shipped to a hardware store in Chicago in 1878. Yup, he spent the dough to research it. Therefore it was made well before the advent of smokless powder. It's a 5 shot I think (maybe 6?). It's chambered in 32 S&W. It's a DA only and he's shot a couple hundred factory rounds through it with no ill effects.

The factory ammo produces not much more then a mild pop, and recoil even in the tiny pistol is of no consequence. We chronographed it and the 77gr RNL slug is schlepping along at a bit over 500 fps. Would tend to piss you off if you got hit with it :-)

I would think your's would be safe with loads like 1.5grs of Bullseye under a 140gr or lighter pure lead boolit. For my IJ pistol it's first rounds were a bunch of odd factory LRN fodder. There were headstamps of UMC, Rem-UMC, Western, W-W and Peters. Recoil seemed brisk only in that I really wasn't expecting any. A few rounds over the chronograph was going about 430 to 480 fps. I suspect the slugs were 145 to 158gr but I don't know for sure.

My first 38 S&W was an old S&W M&P model my dad bought back in 1963 from a Ca Highway Patrolman.

http://www.fototime.com/20E262CE102F9D8/standard.jpg

And a US govt Property British contract pistol I bought from a range buddy a few months ago:

http://www.fototime.com/8EB1F9344794021/standard.jpg

I have an article by Ken Waters dealing with the 38 S&W as it may be loaded in the more modern solid frame pistols. The Lyman cast Bullet books' data is also listed for solid frame pistols only. When I got the break top IJ I was in a bit of a quandry then as to ammo for it, as I WAS determined to shoot it.

I compared the data from the Ken Waters' article in "Handloader" magazine to that shown in the Lyman book. I also had a couple other articles on the 38 S&W cartridge directly or with the British Webley and Enfield pistols and load data for them. It seemed the Lyman data for starting loads would be a place to start for the Iver Johnson, as even the top loads Lyman showed were very conservative compared to what I'd seen elsewhere. Some loads were only running 8K.

The first load I tried so far as powder goes is the one I settled on. That is 1.7grs of Bullseye. I use 2 bullets and both are wadcutters cast of pure lead. One is the Lyman 35863 which drops at .363" and weighs 161grs. The other is the Lee 358-148 which drops at .358" and 152grs. Since the pistol isn't for anything other then making holes in paper or having a pop can dance, the results with either slug worked fine with that load.

I found the IJ to have been exceedingly well made in all respects. It's tight in it's action and the chambers. Brass fired and partially resized that will rechamber in either S&W will not fully enter the Iver Johnson. It must have it's brass FL sized and the .363" slug is a snug fit in the throat.

So far as using BP goes I'd think a full case of 3Fg would work fine. I'd hazard a guess that you wouldn't be able to get more then 10-12grs in the case under a boolit.

Buckshot

[Bucks Owin]

If it is indeed a 3rd model .38 DA (and it looks like it is) I wouldn't shoot it at all. The 3rd model was made from 1884 to 1895 and ser #s run from 119001 to 322700.

It's condition as a collector gun is poor and even it's mechanical integrity looks doubtful, but I still see it as a 110 yr old piece of S&W history. Why the need to stress it with firing at all? You "may" just be sorry if you do!

I'd pass it on to a S&W collector and buy something suitable for shooting...(that won't put your digits and the gun at risk!)

FWIW,

Dennis

[Wayne Smith]

I agree with Bucks - But - if ya gotta, it's easy. Your load is a case full minus the depth of the bullet seat, or the amount of bullet in the case. The powder should be lightly compressed when you seat the bullet.

I assume you know that this is a different case than the .38 Special and you need the right brass.

The original bullet is a heeled bullet of bore diameter. NEI makes a mold #176 which is a .375-140-Heel. I believe this is the bullet for it.

Given the cost of brass and a mold, is it worth the trouble to shoot a collector that was considered weak and prone to breakage when it was made?

[454PB]

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a box of Remington factory ammo for the .38 S&W, but no gun. Anybody wanna trade me out of it?

[Four Fingers of Death]

I got a box tucked away as well. Be patient the pistol will turn up one day, :-)

[Bucks Owin]

I got a box tucked away as well. Be patient the pistol will turn up one day, :-)

Well, if one does, I've got a couple dozen nickle .38 S&W cases for it...
Free to a good home! :-D (Or $1 ea as "curios" for a cartridge collector ?!?) :roll:

Dennis