Cash Register Tape PP

[lwknight]

I don't have any special sizers or molds so I wanted to try som thin paper. I got the bright (or not so bright) idea to try cash register paper. Its thin and wets easily.
I first wrapped just wet paper and let it dry then pushed it through the sizer. It seems to work pretty well. Then I got another hare brain scheme. I tried coating both sides with diluted Alox and let it dry. This worked even better in the sizer and made a solidl tightly compressed jacket. I couldn't even find the seam.

The dry alox paper was kind of hard to wrap so I tried to use wet alox on the paper. It was a flop. To oily to handle and would unwrap.

OK, 1 more idea. I rubbed alox into the paper and wiped the excess and let it dry. Then I wet the paper. It seemed to reject water but, eventually took. When I pushed these through the sizer it went nicely and compressed the paper tightly and pressed the would be tail flatly onto the boolit. Its not a twisty tail, just enough to cover most of the boolit base.

I will get a few more made then load em up and see what happens.

Am I wasting my time or could it work out? Wadda ya think?

[pdawg_shooter]

You are making this way too hard! Size your bullet to bore diameter +.001/.0015. Give them 2 wraps of 16# printer paper and let dry. Lube with whatever you have on hand and size in a push through die to groove diameter +.001/.003 or as large as the rifles throat will accept, load and go shooting. With the right BHN you and equal or better the velocity and accuracy of jacketed bullets. Try to use a powder that gives as near as possible to 100% load density.

[yondering]

I do the same as pdawg_shooter said, except I leave out the "size to bore diameter" step before wrapping. I just wrap them as-cast. I feel that the initial sizing before wrapping is a wasted step, and sizing a wrapped as-cast boolit gives better paper compression.

I also don't use any lubes that will soak into the paper. I want that paper to compress, I don't want an incompressible liquid soaked into it. Case sizing wax works well. No oils, grease, or alox. I've found too much lube on the paper hurts accuracy, I only use enough sizing wax to easily size the boolit without tearing the paper.

[303Guy]

The problem (or one of them) is that lubes soaked into the paper act as a glue, boding the patch to the fired boolit. That you don't want. The patch must come off in small pieces at the muzzle. But you will never know for sure until you tray your patching. (Close range testing doesn't show up 'patch stuck to boolit' too well).

[lwknight]

Thats the kind of feedback I was looking for. If the snow melts off in a day or two I will shoot then at full house 44mag and see what happens. It will be hard to tell in a water trap because the boolits expand and peel off so much. Maybe I can test a few air shots to see if the paper is dropping off immediately. I have a large tarp I can spread out and shoot over.

[rhead]

Shoot at a target at 100 yards and examine the group size. You are still trying to make it hard. If the paper is sticking to the boolit it will alter the trajectory. It matters if it falls of in the first six inches or the first 2 feet. You will have trouble telling that without shooting groups. If you are not satisfied with the group size ( who is ever?) change something, one thing ant check a series of groups. It helps or it doesn't help.

Any particular reason for cash register tape over something with a rag content? Is it the ink type or is it the thermal paper?

[lwknight]

My main reason for the tape is that I have no means to size down the boolits and needed thin paper so that I could get the finished product through the sizer die.
I tried some #16 paper and it was like "no way jack"
My thinking was that if it stayed the sizer that it would work through the cylinder into the barrel. Like you guys say, I may have over did it with the Alox impregnation. I got that idea from people using wax paper. I thought that wax paper would be too weak.

I'm pretty sure its the thermal paper. Its the most common reciept paper you get at most stores. And it was there and free and I had not read about anyone trying it.

I'm not artistic at all and not a real good inventer but, I am a good innovater and a bit of a wild out of box thinker.

[303Guy]

I am a good innovater and a bit of a wild out of box thinker.You're in good company here!:drinks:

I just measured some receipt paper and it measures almost exactly the same as the lined notepad paper I use. I should mention that not all notepad papers are equal. The one that works best for me is 'Croxley'. There's sure to be a similar paper in your parts. "Croxley' paper wets and bonds together and 'crimps' over the base better than some other papers. It's similar to printer paper but is thinner and slightly stronger.

Well, being me I just had to try out the receipt paper and it wraps wet just fine! In fact, it's not bad stuff at all. My sample is now drying. ( My receipt is of a shiny nature but quite light weight).


I couldn't even find the seam.Even plain wet wrap, the seam is less obvious than other papers!

[lwknight]

It seemed that the sizer was a kind of mini-test to see what would happen in the barrel.
So far I have been able to size dried non lubed register tape about 1/2 the time with out wadding or just tearing through. as soon as a few more get dried I will just lube the outside and see if I get 100%. If so I will load em up and play cowboys and indians with the rooty tooty aim and shooty.
The alox impregnated paper worked great but, I'm afearing that it will not let go of the boolit.

It would be so better if I could easily get custom sizers or molds but, that takes more $$ and waiting time. Then I could just patch up to the grooves like the pro's do.
Such is the life of a pauper I guess.

[303Guy]

Well, my cash register paper patch has dried and I like what I see! This was about the easiest paper application job I've done and that includes wet 'roll crimping' the tail. The paper is softer after wetting and drying than my regular paper and I can't easily print patch patterns on it but there are other ways of cutting to correct shape and size.

A tip on lubing the dried, pre-sized patched boolit is to roll it on a case lube pad. That's what I do and it works. I have a sizer die i made that produces a two diameter taper step down core. I patched one up and put it back in the sizer die and squeezed it down with no slipping of the patch and that's with a smooth sided core!

I'm keen on hearing your test results with both the alox treated and 'conventional' lubed PPCBoos.:grin:

[yondering]

It seemed that the sizer was a kind of mini-test to see what would happen in the barrel.
So far I have been able to size dried non lubed register tape about 1/2 the time with out wadding or just tearing through. as soon as a few more get dried I will just lube the outside and see if I get 100%.

I've found that LLA makes the paper patch bullets harder to size than dry paper. They stick in the die and don't go through smoothly. Try a sizing wax instead.

[lwknight]

Yondering,
That might be the case with heavier papers.
I'm patching up from .429ish to .435ish and getting a solid consistant .4305 from the suposed to be .429 sizer. They do go through smoothly though.
Also I did not try to use undiluted alox. Its about 30% mineral spirits and I rubbed it in and wiped the excess too.

[lwknight]

This weather is terrible. I did shoot one 44 magnum PP into the dirt and it turned inside out and stayed together. Now I getting excited. Finally SJHP performance from semi-soft cast boolits.

Once it clears up and the sun shines for my chonograph I will get to find out the truth. I did like how the alox treated paper went on and went through the sizer. I loaded up about 1/2 plain paper and halt of em treated paper. Can't wait!!

[303Guy]

I did shoot one 44 magnum PP into the dirt and it turned inside out and stayed together.That got my attention!:Fire:

Any chance of a pic? What was the boolit weight and estimated velocity?

This one started out at 262.5gr and now weighs 260.5gr!8-) No idea of velocity.:(
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-458F.jpg Side and back view.

(I'm wondering how these things would perform on game?)

[lwknight]

Not a camera pic but a scan. Not bad for 2D imagery.
The ground was wet and not real soft. I dug about 6" to the boolit.
240 grain estimated velocity of around 1450+
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/top.jpg
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/Bfr_aft.jpg

Still 238 grain and I think it started out at about 245
Strange thing, this is about 2 or 3 % tin and minimal if any antimony but the slug is hard as a rock
afterwards and it started out fairly soft.

[303Guy]

The scan works great! Thanks.


Strange thing, this is about 2 or 3 % tin and minimal if any antimony but the slug is hard as a rock afterwards and it started out fairly soft. I went and checked mine. As you say, hard as a rock!:!:

The boolit would have been subject to some impact heating and some hefty shock.

Mine would have had more shock as they had less penetration plus the hollow point, explaining the greater degree of 'turning inside out'. Flat nosed ones look like yours.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-451F.jpg

[Ekalb2000]

lw,
Do you have any pics of your final cartridge?
This is very interesting.

[lwknight]

I guess you meant the loaded version. Not so pretty as factory stuff bu, who cares. Right?
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/44_240_RN.jpg

[yondering]

You may have problems with that much crimp. It may tear the paper. I only use enough crimp to remove the case mouth flare, leaving the case mouth straight, not crimped at all.

[lwknight]

That crimp looks more dramatic than it really is. I used a scanner for the picture instead of a regular camera. Its actually kinda light

[303Guy]

That scanner trick works real well!

I'm thinking that in a revolver a crimp would be mandatory to prevent boolit movement. Does a crimp necessarily cause a problem with patches?

[lwknight]

I guess its a tight rope walk between too hard a crimp and just enough for holding the boolit in place. With the paper and semi dirty cases, I had a pretty fair resistance seating the boolits. Maybe Monday will be the day of truth.

[Ekalb2000]

lw,
That is a better lookin boolit than any in a store.

[lwknight]

Thanks, Ekalb
I finally got my chance to test my patched 44mag in a Ruger SBH. I got a 3" group at 25 yards. not great but, it is the best that pistol had done with me at the wheel. These were medium loads.

I tested the full house loads in a SRH and got about the same results. The best part is , no barrel scrubbing.
All in all, accuracy was probably better than I was. Although I did get a lot of confetti, I could not prove wether or not all the paper actually came off the alox treated paper wrapped boolits. I found no reason to treat the paper anyway.

When the weather gets more friendly I will do some more water barrel testing on the soft boolits since the dirt test looked promising. It will be really good if I actually get a soft lead boolit to expand like a SJSP or even better HP.

I will keep working on this till I think I know what I'm doing. Only more testing will prove out the whole idea.

[jleneave]

I have been thinking about PP'ing for my Ruger SBH and BH in .45 LC for the last couple months but wasn't sure how to go about it. I have been practicing wrapping paper around bullets but am not really sure what angle I should be cutting the ends of the patch. I have been using just regular copy/printer paper. Is this paper acceptable for paper patching .44 mag and .45LC.? I will be keeping an eye on this post so can you let us/me know how this is going for you?

I was also thinking about doing a little paper patching for my .45ACP. Not that it really needs it or would benefit from it, but just doing it for fun. Is there any danger of high pressure caused by paper patching with any of the above calibers? Thanks.

Jody

[lwknight]

Everything that I can think of to say is in this thread already.
My brother has a 41mag rifle and I want to play with it too. Since I don't have a 41mag, I have to talk him into buying some molds LOL

[docone31]

I do not see the ACP as fun, but what can I say.
With the patch angles, I make mine 45*. I want them to end up on top of each other. When I do a patch for the first time, I do it under pressure. I then see how the ends line up. I don't take the first wrap as a factor. I do a bunch, then see how they compare before I make cuts on my template.
I do the smaller calibers here, so that is all I can do to help. I do know, patching is the way.

[lwknight]

Anything that is an uxcuse to go out to the reloading shack while the wife watches " Don't you wish you could dance" or something like that is FUN!

[yondering]

I have been using just regular copy/printer paper. Is this paper acceptable for paper patching .44 mag and .45LC.? Jody

That's all I've been using for my rifle PP ammo, don't see why it wouldn't work in a handgun.

Patch angle is probably not critical, some say 30 degrees, some say 45 degrees. I've tried both and find no difference.

[jleneave]

Everything that I can think of to say is in this thread already.
My brother has a 41mag rifle and I want to play with it too. Since I don't have a 41mag, I have to talk him into buying some molds LOL

Thanks for the reply. I was just hoping that if you try any different loads or types of paper or bullets that maybe you would keep us posted. I am really kind of lost when it comes to this technique and any info would be helpful, especially when it comes to paper patching for handguns. Thanks again.

Jody


I do not see the ACP as fun, but what can I say.
With the patch angles, I make mine 45*. I want them to end up on top of each other. When I do a patch for the first time, I do it under pressure. I then see how the ends line up. I don't take the first wrap as a factor. I do a bunch, then see how they compare before I make cuts on my template.
I do the smaller calibers here, so that is all I can do to help. I do know, patching is the way.

You may very well be right about that!! I will start out with the .44 mag and .45LC and see how they do first. It really isn't a matter of needing to paper patch for any of my handguns, I just find this topic very interesting and would like to give it a try. I do get a little leading in my Ruger SBH and BH but it is not enough to cause a problem, although it would be nice to not have any leading at all!! Eventually I want to purchase a .45-70 and thought that until I have the funds to purchase one that I could practice with the .44 mag and .45LC. that way when I do get the .45-70 I will at least have some expierence with paper patching. Thanks for the reply and any advice is most appreciated.

Jody

[jleneave]

That's all I've been using for my rifle PP ammo, don't see why it wouldn't work in a handgun.

Patch angle is probably not critical, some say 30 degrees, some say 45 degrees. I've tried both and find no difference.

Thanks for the reply. I was hoping that I could at least start out with copy/printer paper as I have a good supply of it and I am sure that I will waste a lot before I get this figured out. Thanks again.

Jody

[lwknight]

Most people do use printer paper. They have custom molds or sizers. All I have are standard stuff so I had to try a thinner paper. I was able to patch up from .429 to .435 and get it through a .429 sizer and it came out at .4315. Stranger things are happening I guess but, it worked out great.

I know very little about this craft. Like I just got interested and thought that it might be fun so I just got some different papers and started rolling boolits. Eventually I got pretty good at getting the paper straight and located where I wanted it.

[John Van Gelder]

This is a most useful thread. I experimented with paper patch bullets some thirty years ago, after finding an article on the subject in the American Rifleman. As with a lot of things as we get older, we "forget" some of the lessons we learned in our youths. As some one mentioned, this is something that is pretty simple, and sometimes we tend to make the simple things a bit more complicated than they need to be. The paper patches on bullets are a lot like the cloth patch on a round ball in a muzzle loading rifle, the patch is what takes the rifling and imparts spin to the ball. The patch and the ball part company shortly after the ball leaves the muzzle, a paper patch should do the same thing. Which begs the question, how important are the absolute dimensions of the patch?

Thanks to this post and the other related ones, I have gotten back to paper patching bullets. There are a lot of different grades of paper that will produce the desired result. Currently I have been using parchment paper, which is relatively thin, but very tough, it is a high temperature paper used in cooking.

My patches are dry, cut to a width that covers all of the driving bands on my 358429 bullet, with enough "overhang" to fold over and completely cover the base of the bullet. They are then sized through my .358 sizer die, and when sized are on the average of .3586. My alloy is nearly straight lead. Accuracy is very good and there is no leading.

I thank everyone for their input, again a most useful thread and it is good to revisit old skills.