7.62x54R Help!

[John 242]

Well I picked up a 1942 Model 91/30 for a hundred dollars at the PX.
I lucked out because the bore looks good and most of the rifle matches except the bolt head and barrel bands.
I took her out yesterday and I was able to shoot just under 2 1/2 inches at 50m with Wolf Gold. Not exactly world class, but I'm pretty happy.
I slugged the bore today and it came out just a hair over .312 measured with a set of dial calipers.
Now here's where I need help;

1. What dies do you guys recomend? It seems that most dies size to .308 neck diameter. Won't that ruin a .312 or .313 cast bullet? I was looking at Lee dies because they're affordable and available.

2. I'm thinking of buying the Lee C312-185-1R and hoping it will cast large enough so that I can size to .313. Any suggestions? I am casting straight wheel weights. What top punch would I use?

3. Do I want to size to .313? Sould I try .314?

4. I plan to lube with 50/50 alox/beeswax in a RCBS lube-a-matic 2. That should work, right?

5. I'd like to use Red Dot powder since my max range would be 100m. I'm just looking for something fun (not punnishing) and ecconomical to shoot.

I know I'm asking a lot, but I haven't cast for a rifle yet, only for the .45 ACP in a 1911. Since the 7.62x54R seems to run from .308 to .314 I'm not really sure what is a good choice for my rifle. Thanks a lot, I appreciate it.
John

[Adk Mike]

I have RCBS dies it has an expander plug for both .311 and .308. Mine also slugs .312 I shoot a Lyman 314299. I size mine to .313 and with 12 grains of unique I shoot all day at the swingers out to 200 yards a lot of fun. Mike

[Dutch4122]

Here's what I have done with the Mosin's:

1) Order the Lee die set. On the instructions that come with the dies it advises that if you want to expand the case neck fatter than .308" then you can order the Lee .303 British expander, which is .311" or .312". The part # is SE2358 and the cost is $3 plus S&H. If you call Lee they might take your order over the phone. You can then remove the original expander and install the .303 British expander.

2) I don't have any experience with the Lee C312-185-1R. A nice fat Lyman 314299 might be just the ticket. NOE Custom Molds in the vendor sponsor section has recently run a Group Buy on a modified Fat 314299. You might contact Sweede Nelson and see if you can still get in on the order before it is produced.

3) Here's the best way to determine what diameter to use. Take your calipers and measure the inside case neck from a casing fired in that rifle. Then size to that measurement or .001" below. Filling the throat is very important here ; and the boolit will swage down to the bore when you fire it.

4) 50/50 beeswax / allox should work fine for the plinking loads that you are interested in.

5) 13 grains of Red Dot is a good load. Both of my Mosins like that load (3" @ 100 yards first time out) over a Fat 314299 sized to .316" Another great load that shouldn't be overlooked is 10 to 13 grains of Unique.

Hope this helps,:D

[Maven]

"1. What dies do you guys recomend? It seems that most dies size to .308 neck diameter. Won't that ruin a .312 or .313 cast bullet? I was looking at Lee dies because they're affordable and available.

"2. I'm thinking of buying the Lee C312-185-1R and hoping it will cast large enough so that I can size to .313. Any suggestions? I am casting straight wheel weights. What top punch would I use?

"3. Do I want to size to .313? Sould I try .314?

"4. I plan to lube with 50/50 alox/beeswax in a RCBS lube-a-matic 2. That should work, right?

"5. I'd like to use Red Dot powder since my max range would be 100m. I'm just looking for something fun (not punnishing) and ecconomical to shoot."

John,

The easy answers (#s 3, 4 & 5) first. #3. Sizing dies are relatively inexpensive, especially if you purchase them used, so you'll just have to experiment with .313" and .314" (either Lyman or RCBS since both will fit your Lub-A-Matic) to see which produces better results for you. As an alternative, you can purchase a .313" die and lap it out to .314" if necessary. (There's a tutorial about this on the Castpics site shown at the bottom of your screen.) #4. 50/50 lube in your Lub-A-Matic will be fine. #5. The "universal" .30cal. load is 13 grs. of Red Dot or 16 grs. of 2400.

Now for the rest: #1. I use a FL RCBS 7.62 x 54R die set with a .311" expander ball since I'm sizing for 2 Finnish Nagants. Btw, the expander ball barely touches the inside of the case necks regardless of which rifle the brass is fired in. RCBS has an excellent warranty too. However, if I only had 1 rifle, I'd recommend the Lee Collet Die Set since the collet die only sizes the neck and gently at that. In theory you're not supposed to need a Lyman M-die (expands and slightly flares the case neck so you don't shave metal from your cast bullets) when using the collet die, but this isn't always so. Check Lyman's website to find which one is recommended for the 7.62 x 54R or do what I do, use the one they offer for the .30-06 (works like a charm!). Then too, if you're handy and have access to a lathe, you can remove 0.03" from the top of the collet (tapered end) so you won't need the M-die.

#2. Which mold? Lee molds are inexpensive and quite a good value, but their dimensions vary widely. Other brands also suffer from this on too many occasions, but unfortunately it's more of a gamble with the Lees. If you'll need something as large as .314", look for Lyman/Ideal #314299. Your second option will be to look for an extra Lee 6 cavity fat Loverin (a type of cast bullet design which is mostly body with a short nose and named after its creator, Guy Loverin) since it should cast at least .313" Post this in our Want to Buy section. Btw, start searching your favorite auction site for molds that cast at least .313".

Hope this helps!

[Newtire]

I have had great luck with the 8mm Lee 175 grain boolit. First lubed and sized to .323 and then run thru the .314" sizer. This is the one boolit I finally got to shoot in my Mosin 59 carbine.

[beemer]

I use the Lee but I was lucky enough to get one that cast almost .314, it really is a gamble.

I have lyman and Lee dies, both size the necks for .308 bullets. I have read that the RCBS set comes with both expanders but you might have to check that out first. You might look at the Lyman M die to expand and flair the cases, I think they make one in 31 caliber.

I like the Lee collet dies but I don't think they are offered in 7.62X54.

Dave

[John 242]

Thanks for the replys so far. You guys have given me a lot to think about.
The 314299 seems to be a good 'go to' mold for the Mosin. I'm a little nervous about buying Lyman or Lee because I've heard both have QC problems, but I'd rather have a 314 mold that actually casts .312 and not a 312 that actually casts .310.

I think I am too late to get in on the group buy for the modified 314299. I haven't asked yet, but they stopped taking orders in October and since I am a newbie, I have no clue how these things work. I don't know the rules and don't want to cause problems. Everybody seems to be real excited about that mold though, especially the Enfield shooters.



3) Here's the best way to determine what diameter to use. Take your calipers and measure the inside case neck from a casing fired in that rifle. Then size to that measurement or .001" below. Filling the throat is very important here ; and the boolit will swage down to the bore when you fire it.

Dutch, I measured the inside diameter of a fired case and came up with .312.

It seems to be a toss up on which dies to get. Lee comes with a .308 sizer button and RCBS comes with .311. The RCBS dies are 7 dollars more at Midway... so I guess it really doesn't matter sice I would have to get the .311 button from Lee anyway.

I need to research the Lyman M die. I plan to cast for my .30-06 eventually and if I could use the same M die that would be great. if not, oh well.

Y'all have given me a lot to think about and I appreciate it.
Thanks,
John

[Gerry N.]

I use the Lee C312-185R for the .303 Brit in my 91-30. I double tumble 'em and shoot 'em unsized and unchecked over 1cc of Unique. I get about 4"-5" at 100 yds. Try the minimalist approach before going all high tech. I use Lee dies and bought the .303 expander. I partial size only as all I have in 7.62x54mm is the one rifle. I did splurge and bought Lapua brass. It seems to last approximately forever. Spendy and dang well worth it.

Try the Lee universal expander die, I like it. I load cast boolits in .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .303 Brit. .30-06, .308 Win, and 7.62 Russ. so the univ. expand. die is worth it's weight in wheelweight metal.

Gerry N.

[NuJudge]

I've used the Lee bullet, as well as the Lyman 314299. I'm a believer in fat cast bullets for rifles, but they have to chamber, in addition to the bullet having to fill the grooves. I have had rifles with big groove diameters where I could not get a cartridge with a big enough bullet to chamber. I would start with .314".

Regarding which bullet, you can scrounge some of either here for the cost of postage, try them and proceed accordingly.

It might be nice to have some Tin to add to your melt, if the bullets don't fill out.

[StarMetal]

Thanks for the replys so far. You guys have given me a lot to think about.
The 314299 seems to be a good 'go to' mold for the Mosin. I'm a little nervous about buying Lyman or Lee because I've heard both have QC problems, but I'd rather have a 314 mold that actually casts .312 and not a 312 that actually casts .310.

I think I am too late to get in on the group buy for the modified 314299. I haven't asked yet, but they stopped taking orders in October and since I am a newbie, I have no clue how these things work. I don't know the rules and don't want to cause problems. Everybody seems to be real excited about that mold though, especially the Enfield shooters.



Dutch, I measured the inside diameter of a fired case and came up with .312.

It seems to be a toss up on which dies to get. Lee comes with a .308 sizer button and RCBS comes with .311. The RCBS dies are 7 dollars more at Midway... so I guess it really doesn't matter sice I would have to get the .311 button from Lee anyway.

I need to research the Lyman M die. I plan to cast for my .30-06 eventually and if I could use the same M die that would be great. if not, oh well.

Y'all have given me a lot to think about and I appreciate it.
Thanks,
John

John,

Try this. Take a fired or resized case...either...and bell or flare the case mouth a lot. Then chamber it and you will fill resistance as the flare tries to enter the neck area of the chamber. Keep forcing the bolt close until it closes all the way. Now extract the case and gently with your mic measure the flare. Write that number down. Now compare your loaded rounds diameter in that same area. Your loaded round diameter can get within .001 inch of that case measure which is pretty close to the inside diameter of your chamber neck area. I'll have to see what size the inside diameter of my fired cases are for my Finn 39, I know for sure I can chamber a case with a .314 bullet and not be danger. The .312 doesn't seem quite right for your rifle, but you may have an exceptionally tight chamber.

Joe

[John 242]

UPDATE:
I was lucky enough to find a Lee die set locally.
I just ordered a .311 expander on-line from Lee, however it's possible that it won't arrive for several weeks. I hope I can get away with loading Hornady .312 jacketed bullets until I get everything assembled to start casting.

I have to order everything on-line because there are no 'hard core' gunshops around here that have a good selection of reloading and casting equipment. They have
'this and that' but finding what I need is more a matter of luck.

I've really thought hard about mold selection and I think for the sake of economy I'm going to go with the Lee mold. I'm really torn though. It's simply a matter of 20 vs 60 dollars. For the savings I can get a .312 sizer die, top pounch, expander die, and still have something left over. I'm might pick up a .309 sizer for my .30-06 deer rifle use the same boolit for both guns.

You guys have been a big help and I really appreciate the advice.

[chuebner]

Here is what I did for my three Mosins. M44 slugs at .300X.312, M39 slugs at .299X.310, 91/30 slugs at .301X.314. I cast both the Lee C312-185 and the Lyman 314299. The Lee drops at .3125 and these are used as cast in the M44 nad M39. I beagled the 314299 and it drops at .3165 and these are used in the 91/30 as cast. For reloading I use the Lee Collet neck size die in 7.62X54R for the M44 and M39. For the 91/30 I bought the collet die innards in 303 Brit for the 7.62X54R die and change the collet pieces depending which rifle I happen to be reloading for. So far it works like a champ.

charlie

[Daryl]

John,

I think you'll be happy with your choice. I use the Lee die set up you talked about plus the M expander and suggested in this thread.

Here's the expander die:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=199295

I found it to be necessary to get the bullet to a good start - otherwise I was messing around trying to hold it in place while bringing the press down. That was what I found, anyway.

Also, I sent my Lyman 4500 back to the factory for some fine tuning and asked them to send me the right top punches for the Lee molds. For the C312-185-1R they sent me Lyman #284 which is perfect. Also, for the Lee C312-155-2R they sent me #413 which is right for that one also. Some of the online charts give different suggested matches which don't work as well.

I like the 185 in the Mosin alot. I use the .314 sizer die to lube and install the gas check - it does not hit the bullet - so it's pretty much shot as cast. I think mine cast at between .312 and .313. The 50/50 works fine. I use C.E. Harris' suggestion of 16 grains of 2400 for 100 yard target shooting and it works well.

I also used the 155 grain and it works good, too. I can't quantify it, but I prefer the 185. I also cast for the 7.62x39 so that's mostly what I use the 155 grain for.

Brass was not easy to track down for anything affordable. Once fired is almost out - it goes fast when posted and not nearly the discount from new that other calibers seem to have.

Enjoy

[Daryl]

PS

John,

If your die set does not include the Lee Factory Crimp Die - I do recommend that. It is a personal preference - there are mixed opinions on it. Some seem to suggest that it is not needed if you use everything else right. But I like it.




John,

I think you'll be happy with your choice. I use the Lee die set up you talked about plus the M expander and suggested in this thread.

Here's the expander die:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=199295

I found it to be necessary to get the bullet to a good start - otherwise I was messing around trying to hold it in place while bringing the press down. That was what I found, anyway.

Also, I sent my Lyman 4500 back to the factory for some fine tuning and asked them to send me the right top punches for the Lee molds. For the C312-185-1R they sent me Lyman #284 which is perfect. Also, for the Lee C312-155-2R they sent me #413 which is right for that one also. Some of the online charts give different suggested matches which don't work as well.

I like the 185 in the Mosin alot. I use the .314 sizer die to lube and install the gas check - it does not hit the bullet - so it's pretty much shot as cast. I think mine cast at between .312 and .313. The 50/50 works fine. I use C.E. Harris' suggestion of 16 grains of 2400 for 100 yard target shooting and it works well.

I also used the 155 grain and it works good, too. I can't quantify it, but I prefer the 185. I also cast for the 7.62x39 so that's mostly what I use the 155 grain for.

Brass was not easy to track down for anything affordable. Once fired is almost out - it goes fast when posted and not nearly the discount from new that other calibers seem to have.

Enjoy

[dualsport]

I was running into the Lee .308 expander problem with my 7.62x54r dies. I'm anxious to get loaded up to try cast boolits in my 91/30. Was going to order the .311 expander when I remembered I have 7.65 Argentine dies. Took the expander out and put it in the 7.62x54r set, works like a charm now.

[Phat Man Mike]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67733

check out this too!

[Jjed]

Picked up a good one, 91/30 with a very good bore. using a lyman 311332 mold sized to .309 with 20 gr 2400, shoots very well.
Target shot at 100 yds.

[dualsport]

Ditched everyone yesterday and went to the range. I took 3 MNs, two just acquired refurbs and an older ,1939, original. I've written here about it, it's the one that had a hair trigger. Fixed that, now the trigger is nice, way way better than the refurbs. I'm hoping to figure out why so I can reproduce the good trigger. Anyway, here's the dope. Oh, they're all 91/30s. Range was 50 yds. All but one load was with a 180 gr. Lee GB bullet from a mold I borrowed. It looks a lot like a Saeco 315 but with more grease grooves. ACWW and GC. 17.2 gr new 2400 went 4 shots into 1/2"!! The fifth shot went out to 1 1/2". Damn. (There was probably a bit of luck in that 4 shot group, but I'll take it. 11.5 gr. RedDot went 1" for 5 shots.On both those loads I set the rear sight on 500 yds., got me in the black. 37.5 gr. AA2700/1.6cc COW went 2" for 6 shots, sights on 100 and going 11" high. With a scope mounted that load would probably work on a deer, it had plenty of kick, and smelled good too. I have 8 lbs. of the AA2700, so I've been looking for ways to use it. It's sold in bulk as Data Powder 79. The next load was a bust, a Lyman 311359 over 6.5 gr Bullseye. Went wild. Just for grins I loaded up some leftover Hornady .312 174 gr. RN over 41.5 gr. AA2700. The accuracy was amazing(to me), 5 shots in 1 1/4". Considering my visual difficulties with seeing two front sights I think these loads and guns are really surprising.

[damron g]

I shoot a Finn 28/30 with a not super smoothe lapped bore (formerly pretty sad) with 16.5 of 2400 and a CCI 200.SD's are under 10 fps ! The bullet that woke it up is the old discontinued SAECO #312.it is about 220 in my range scrap alloy and casts .314/.303 and looks like a 311284 with a slighly flat nose.They need to make this one again!!Groups are in the 2" range even with the suspect bore.My 91-30 with original Russian barrel,but SAKO (SA) rearsenal marks with a perfect bore shoots some groups into 1.5" with the SAECO #312 or Ideal 311335 (all groups 5 at 100 with issue sights)

George

[John 242]

I received my .311 expander today in the mail from Lee. Excellent service! I didn't /expect it to arrive for a week or two. My thanks to Lee for a job well done.

I also received a package from Midway. I had ordered the Lyman .314299 after a lot of internal debate about spending three times the money for the Lyman product.
Other than playing with it, I haven't done anything with the mold yet. I'll clean it up with mineral spirits some time in the near future and I hope to do some casting in the next couple of days. It would be great to shoot the 91/30 this weekend with my own cast boolits.

Some of you guys have posted loads that you've been using. I've got to figure out what powder I'm going to use... probably Red Dot... Ojections? The SurplusRifle.com site says to avoid fast pistol and rifle powders but doesn't really say why. I assume because of fears of detonantion. Anyone else feel the same way?

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.

[John 242]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67733

check out this too!

Thanks...
Good info!

[Lead melter]

10-13 grains Red Dot or same charge of Unique will do well in the MN. I use them all the time and have too much fun. The Lee C312-185 mold works well for this caliber if you do a "beagle" job on it, and by all means, get the factory crimp die, universal decapping die, and universal case neck expander from Lee. You can then decap, case mouth bell, and crimp without sizing the case and the brass will last much longer.

[Dutch4122]

10-13 grains Red Dot or same charge of Unique will do well in the MN. I use them all the time and have too much fun. The Lee C312-185 mold works well for this caliber if you do a "beagle" job on it, and by all means, get the factory crimp die, universal decapping die, and universal case neck expander from Lee. You can then decap, case mouth bell, and crimp without sizing the case and the brass will last much longer.

I've had the same results in my Mosins with 10-13 grains of either Red Dot or Unique. Unique seems to give a slight edge in accuracy. Boolit I use is a fat 314299 (200 grains when cast from straight wheelweight) sized .316" as both of my rifles will swallow that diameter. Just measure the inside of a case neck after it has been fired in your rifle; then size your boolits to that measured diameter or .001" below.

Hope this helps,

[dualsport]

Dutch, where'd you get that fat 314299? I'm waiting on one from a GB here, have they been done before?

[Dutch4122]

Dutch, where'd you get that fat 314299? I'm waiting on one from a GB here, have they been done before?

Yes, my Fat 314299 was the product of a Group Buy ran through Lee several years ago. I think that the NOE version will probably shoot even better than mine as the consistancy cavity to cavity will no doubt be better. I'm sure that NOE Fat 314299 will be well worth your (our ;-)) wait!