Lube melt point test results

[Marlin Junky]

I made two batches of lube, one with a half ounce of Ivory and the other with a full ounce and decided to perform a melting point experiment.

I rolled up a small sample of each lube into a ball about a half inch in diameter and placed them into a oven pre-heated to 170F. After 7 to 8 minutes the lube containing a half ounce of Ivory turned into a hemisphere sitting in a thick pool while the lube containing a full ounce of Ivory had just started to change color.

I also had a ball of Javelina in the oven along side the homemade lubes that had turned into a thin puddle of liquid.

I used a 1:1:1 ratio of extra light olive oil, mineral oil and castor oil to maintain a temp of 300F for one hour (without smoking) which enabled me to melt a full ounce of finely grated Ivory in a total of 9 Tbs. of oil.

MJ

[Four Fingers of Death]

That's great, but where do I get the elephant from? :-)

The Govermint used to buy Ivory brand soap for the prisoners. I was in charge of minimum security gaol and every now and then we'd get a prisoner who was a bit smelly. I'd go out and reach out, offer my hand and introduce myself, saying 'Welcome to xxxxxxxx I'm the Area Manager.' The inmates always shook my hand, a little bit bemused and then they would realise that I had a cake of Ivory soap in my hand, as they took it I'd say "make sure you use it."

The other prisoners were right onto it and would laugh and say 'Mori's given him the Ivory handshake!'

[David R]

I am confused as usual. Did you only use oils and Ivory?

David

[Marlin Junky]

I found the elephant under my bathroom sink. It had been there for a while as the skin was dry and wrinkly. When grating him on the fine side of the cheese grater the Ivory turned into more like a powder. With a fresh bar directly from Albertson's, Ivory grates more like parmesan cheese.

After the soapy meringue-like stuff was more or less homogeneous, I added a 14 ounce block of beeswax. After the beeswax had melted, I added about 5 Tbs. of anhydrous lanolin (this stuff is difficult to handle/measure). I may add one more Tbs. of lanolin for a total of about 6. I may also add another ounce of beeswax when I add the additional 1 Tbs. of lanolin but I should probably test the lube before adding anything else at this point. This would give the following recipe:

1 Tbs. each of:
Extra Light Olive oil
Mineral oil
Castor oil

1/3 ounce aged Ivory, (I think it contains less water than "fresh" Ivory) finely grated

5 oz. beeswax (by weight, not volume)

2 Tbs. anhydrous lanolin

As you can see I tripled the ingredients above and it made a 1 quart mayonnaise jar full of lube. It was definitely easier to heat 9 Tbs. of oil to 300F than only 3 Tbs. of oil but now I have a very large batch of lube... good thing it turned out OK.

Does anyone know if adding candle dye is a bad/good idea to help identify the lube by color? I'd hate to screw up my lube by adding an unknown just to color it. I'm also wondering if adding less lanolin would raise the melting point even higher. Unfortunately, I've got more lube now than I know what to do with so I guess the experiments will have to wait until I blow off a few thousand rounds.

MJ

[felix]

MJ, you are doing well with what you have. If you must color the lube, use a blue shade because you get more color with less crayon. Use just enough crayon for lube identification only. ... felix

[August]

This illustrates one of the nicest things about bullet casting. The burner you use for melting lead also works as the basis for a still. These guys have obviously discovered that fact.

Whoopeee

[Marlin Junky]

Felix,

Why crayon instead of candle dye?

MJ

[felix]

No kids in the house? If not, then the candle dye would work. Candle dye would be better because it would be 100 percent color. Get the darkest color true blue they have. Not blue-black, for example. Not blue-green either. Greens are the worst of all because current green pigments are too much of a see through like a stain rather than a paint. ... felix

[ANeat]

I've got more lube now than I know what to do with so I guess the experiments will have to wait until I blow off a few thousand rounds.

MJ

Hey MJ; If you got to much lube im sure a lot of great guys here (myself included) would be glad to help you "evaluate" your new lube:-D

Adam

[Marlin Junky]

Felix,

Blue it is, but what color would you suggest if I make another batch? I already have a batch of red lube. I lubed up some boolits with my high temp lube in its natural color state and it's hard to see on the boolit; so natural color isn't a good choice... at least for my eyes. What about yellow or orange? On the boolits, the natual color appears off-white.

Adam,

I posted the recipe and you want me to mail you some lube? What part of the recipe don't you understand?

MJ

[44man]

I have never seen the point of what temperature a lube melts at unless the loads are stored in a car or in the sun. It seems to me the lube must be soft enough to squeeze out of the grooves to coat the bore. Some lube is so hard you will find all of it left in a recovered boolit and I have to ask, what did it do? I don't care what anyone says but I can't see the lube melting in the bore except from friction and that won't let the lube squeeze out where it is needed.

[Marlin Junky]

44man,

The lube I made is not hard at all. It is only slightly firmer than Javelina and a lot less sticky; but melts at high temp because of the quantity of soap I was able to melt in the 300F oil. Try out the recipe and let us know how it works for you. Use 2 Tbs. of lanolin and slightly less than 5 ounces of beeswax. 4.5 ounces of beeswax may be just about right for the proper consistency. See the recipe in post #4. You'll need to get a cookie thermometer from the grocery store.

I wanted a Summer lube for shooting silhouette in the Southwest and I noticed that the lube I currently use seems to produce an occasional flyer if I leave a round chambered in a hot gun a couple minutes before firing it.

MJ

[ANeat]

Adam,

I posted the recipe and you want me to mail you some lube? What part of the recipe don't you understand?

MJ


I understand just fine; I didnt understand when you said you had "more lube than you knew what to do with" :roll:


Adam

[357maximum]

You do not have too much lube, you simply are lacking boolits. I have over 50 pounds of good homemade lube on hand, and would never say I have too much, I simply have not melted and launched enough projectiles YET.

As far as colors go I use liquid candle dye and have had great luck with: black, brown, orange, blue, red, and au naturraalll. (orange can be tricky )


If you wanna play with melt temp trade half your oil mix out and trade it for some jajoba oil from the hippie food store, and see what that does for your melt temp..I was amazed at the difference it made in the melt temp as well as the overall quality of the lube. Another tip I got from a member who I highly regard as the lubemeister is cook it a lot longer than you think you should. I have settled on 12 hours on really low heat and have been impressed with what it does to the lubes ability to take velocity punishment.

[Marlin Junky]

.357Maximum,

I have considered the pricey jajoba oil. Perhaps you could apply the oven melt test to your jajoba lube and post the results.

MJ

[felix]

Winter lube must have a low melting point, say 130 max. I have not had the chance to try the liquid dyes. Just make sure the dyes are oil ready, and not the water solvent type. ... felix

[44man]

Marlin, I will have to try it.

[357maximum]

.357Maximum,

I have considered the pricey jajoba oil. Perhaps you could apply the oven melt test to your jajoba lube and post the results.

MJ



Jajoba oil is worth every penney for several reasons. If you truly evaluate a lube with group size,leading, melt point, and velocity ceiling you will see why It is in all my higher end lubes. I would include it still if the price were triple what the little alternative lifestyle "guy" I buy it from charges for it. JMHO, but well worth the dough in my book. You can make a "good" lube without it, but the jajoba sure makes life easier, kinda like a gas check does. I shoot several of my toys to the same velocity that j word bullets leave the tube at, and have none of the problems that I read about from time to time here.

Michael




edit: As far as dye is concerned "yes" the dye is oil ready, it is made for the candle making trade. A little goes a long way, and it can be overdone as far a hot rod performance goes. I add about 1 teaspoon to 2 pounds of mikes magical mystery lube and color is good, without losing the higher end performance.

[StarMetal]

357maximum,

I made some lube awhile back that I got jacketed velocity with out of my 7mm-08 went absolutely positively nothing in the bore...in fact cleaner then shooting jacketed even...PLUS I got really really good accuracy. It was just off the shelf stuff. I'm planning on trying some special lube that Felix and I talked about soon.

Bullshop's speed green is pretty good from what I hear too. There are a lot of bad lubes out there for sure, but my opinion is it doesn't take alot to lube the bore.

Joe

[Marlin Junky]

357maximum,

So how do you make your jojoba lube? I have always suspected that jojoba oil was the "secret ingredient" in Apache Blue.

MJ

P.S. BTW, why are you spelling it jajoba and not jojoba? Are we talking about the same oil?

[Ron]

Felix and other experts, can food die be used to colour the FWFL, you know the stuff that the good lady uses to colour icing on cakes etc. All I have used in the past is a couple of inches or a coloured candle to add colour.

Regards,

Ron

[felix]

Jojoba oil is great for around the house. It has great seeping-in qualities, much like some of the synthetics. Very small molecules, and that's its secret. Will help keep viscosity very, very low, and that's why it makes a good high speed lube. You can use it 100 percent as the felix lube oil.

No, do not use food dyes to color lube, unless for grins to see what happens. ...

felix

[wills]

Jojoba oil is great for around the house. It has great seeping-in qualities, much like some of the synthetics. Very small molecules, and that's its secret. Will help keep viscosity very, very low, and that's why it makes a good high speed lube. You can use it 100 percent as the felix lube oil.


felix

Can you cook with it?

[Bucks Owin]

I have never seen the point of what temperature a lube melts at unless the loads are stored in a car or in the sun. It seems to me the lube must be soft enough to squeeze out of the grooves to coat the bore. Some lube is so hard you will find all of it left in a recovered boolit and I have to ask, what did it do? I don't care what anyone says but I can't see the lube melting in the bore except from friction and that won't let the lube squeeze out where it is needed.

I've wondered the same thing. With the time frame being what it is, you have to wonder how a lube would "melt" in the bore. You could swipe a lit cutting torch past a glob of boolit lube to demonstrate this....(If you could "swipe" fast enough!)

Dennis

[felix]

Wills, I would not eat Jojoba oil, because it has not been done (to my knowledge). It will take care of skin in short order though, and most especially when mixed with anhydrous lanolin. What I usually do is rub the lanolin in first, and then use the oil to reduce the stickies to zero. Contrast that with just the oil and wax mixed. No real preference unless you are like me and are too lazy to mix them first. Jojoba is the only oil (other than lighter fluid to first clean) that I will use on a BR trigger mechanism. Throw your 3-1 sewing machine oil in the trash. Not even in the same ball park. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Felix-
What oil usefull in boolit lubes will thin lanolin to a more fluid consistency like the soft blackpowder lubes?

[felix]

All lubes work best when they are just about "melted" before the round is shot. Loose lube helps to keep the viscosity in check, which by definition is the act of preventing eventual lube purging which causes a flyer within a string of shots. Revolters, however, require a higher viscosity unless proven otherwise per application. ... felix

[45 2.1]

This isn't for that application. I'm trying to find an oil that thins lanolin. There is a thread concerning Lanotec which is lanolin at 90 to 100% with no other ingredients listed. It would seem that Lanotec is lanolin with an emulsifier added. Any thoughts?

[Bass Ackward]

This isn't for that application. I'm trying to find an oil that thins lanolin.

Bob,

These guys say olive oil, emo oil, or coca butter.

http://www.herbalremedies.com/lanolin.html?source=google&engine=adwords!32&keyword=%28lanolin%29&match_type=

[felix]

True, coca butter, or coconut oil, is a great thinner for lanolin. I use them alternatively when making a felix lube. Jojoba oil would be most excellent, but I won't waste it for such a "dirty" job. ... felix

[357maximum]

357maximum,

So how do you make your jojoba lube? I have always suspected that jojoba oil was the "secret ingredient" in Apache Blue.

MJ

P.S. BTW, why are you spelling it jajoba and not jojoba? Are we talking about the same oil?


Following Felix lube directions

1 TBLSP LIQUID lanolin, 1 TBLSP JOJOBA oil, 1 TBLSP natural orange oil, 1 TBLSP johnsons paste wax, added to five pounds of yellow beeswax.


Use the jojoba oil to melt the soap, add wax, then johnsons, add liquid lanolin and orange oil after the heat is off. Bring temp to 190 degrees and let stew for several hours or longer.

This is a hardish lube, but simply adding more JOJOBA will make it softer...


I push this lube hard so I do not know what would happen at velocities less than 2K.

Why did I call it JAJOBA instead of JOJOBA, well because I never won any spelling bees in school, that is why..

[Marlin Junky]

357Maximum,

I hate typing, can I call you 357 for short?

I'm a 2K kinda guy but I think it may be fun to shoot for 2500 fps with something like RCBS 30-115, 30-150 or something in between, from my 24" 30-30. Would I need to harden up my alloy beyond 15 to 16 BHN?

FIVE POUNDS of beeswax, you say?! How much soap? What temp. do I bring the jojoba to before adding the soap? I'm assuming the soap is Ivory. When you say liquid lanolin do you mean melt the lanolin before adding or is the lanolin purchased in liquid form from the Hippie store? And finally, what does the natural orange oil do for the lube and do I get it from the Hippie store too?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Is the purpose for thinning lanolin simply to be able to handle it easier or are there other reasons? I figured next time I make boolit lube, I would melt some lanolin slowly in the microwave so I can measure tablespoons more easily.

I have checked three different grocery stores in my area for coconut oil with no luck. Coco Butter is solid so it needs to be melted to thin the lanolin.

MJ

[felix]

MJ, again, you got it right. Lanolin just has too much viscosity for most applications, and thinning it down would be the same as using less of it in the mix for the most part. However, the stickies might remain, and adding the coconut oil, or coca butter/oil will cut the viscosity and stickies as a unit. Just have to play games, but don't forget to shoot each variation in the various guns you have to hone in the best mix for accuracy. Adding castor oil will take care of the high speed problems that could result if there is not enough viscosity to reach the muzzle when the speed is high. ... felix

PS. coconut oil is the oil of choice for pop corn. The only oil to use to get that old time movie taste. Get it at the sage. castpics has the addy, I think.

[357maximum]

"357Maximum,

I hate typing, can I call you 357 for short?

I'm a 2K kinda guy but I think it may be fun to shoot for 2500 fps with something like RCBS 30-115, 30-150 or something in between, from my 24" 30-30. Would I need to harden up my alloy beyond 15 to 16 BHN?

FIVE POUNDS of beeswax, you say?! How much soap? What temp. do I bring the jojoba to before adding the soap? I'm assuming the soap is Ivory. When you say liquid lanolin do you mean melt the lanolin before adding or is the lanolin purchased in liquid form from the Hippie store? And finally, what does the natural orange oil do for the lube and do I get it from the Hippie store too?"

MJ




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Is the purpose for thinning lanolin simply to be able to handle it easier or are there other reasons? I figured next time I make boolit lube, I would melt some lanolin slowly in the microwave so I can measure tablespoons more easily. "



1. Yes you can call me whatever you like, but if you must shorten it you could call me maximus for short, it would help my ego, I am lacking in that (not)
2. Follow felixes directions, and use 1 yes 1 TBLSP ivory soap flakes, that is all that is neccessary.

3. Get the oil hot enough to melt the soap, right around the smoking point..

4. Liquid lanolin is a thick sticky oil sold at the afforementioned hippie store. I believe it to be refined (in some way) pure lanolin. It is just easier to work with than the paste form of lanolin. All I know is that it works for it's intended purpose. I have always been more interested in the works or not than the why or how...


And finally "what does orangoe oil do for the lube, well I pose this question to you, what does it do if you wash your hands with orange hand cleaner?? It makes an almost self cleaning lube, and yes it can be purchased from the same gay hippies.

As far as alloy I use a 9 to 1 w.w/lino mix and it does all I need it to plus. As far as B.H.N I can not tell you that number, but I can tell you it works. Results are far more important to me than the why. I do not overanalyze somethging that simply works.

Maybe Bucks Owin will pipe in and tell you more about the lube I sent him it is basically the same as I have written about here. If you can safely push a boolit to a given speed and it FITS your gun, it will work..

Michael

[John Boy]

Jojoba Oil
...the ban on the importation of sperm whale products in 1971 led to the discovery that jojoba oil is in many regards superior to sperm oil for applications in the cosmetics and other industries.

The physical properties of jojoba oil are: high viscosity, high flash and fire point, high dielectric constant, high stability and low volatility. Its composition is little affected by temperatures up to 570°F (300°C). Jojoba oil contains straight- chained C20 and C22 fatty acids and alcohols and two unsaturated bonds, which make the oil susceptible to many different types of chemical manipulations. The extracted oil is relatively pure, non-toxic, biodegradable, and resistant to rancidity.


Here's my recipe for BP cartridges:
50% - Soy Wax
25% - Pure Neatsfoot Oil
25% - Jojoba Oil
1oz - Lanolin per pound
Plus, a 1/2 stick of Thompson's PS
... good viscosity in the Summer and a little harder in the Winter ... no heat needed in the lube/resizer

[Marlin Junky]

Dear MAXIMUMS:

Thank you oh benevolent master for enlightening this unworthy retch.

But seriously, your Lino may not be the same as my Lino 'cause "type metal" varies somewhat. This is why us mere mortals have chosen the universal hardness language called B...H...N (pause for applause).

Now, are you really serious about 5 pounds of beeswax? That would make the other ingredients in 1 Tbs. quantities insignificant.

I'm thinking if'n I make a trip to the Hippie store, I'll buy a pint of jojoba ($24.00) and use three Tbs. to every five ounces of beeswax as my recipe above (post #4) and forget about the other oils as Felix suggested earlier. $24.00/pint!... I must be nuts!

MJ

[felix]

Need a group buy on Jojoba! See majestic mountain / sage using google. ... felix

[357maximum]

"""Dear MAXIMUMS:

Thank you oh benevolent master for enlightening this unworthy retch.

But seriously, your Lino may not be the same as my Lino 'cause "type metal" varies somewhat. This is why us mere mortals have chosen the universal hardness language called B...H...N (pause for applause).

Now, are you really serious about 5 pounds of beeswax? That would make the other ingredients in 1 Tbs. quantities insignificant.

I'm thinking if'n I make a trip to the Hippie store, I'll buy a pint of jojoba ($24.00) and use three Tbs. to every five ounces of beeswax as my recipe above (post #4) and forget about the other oils as Felix suggested earlier. $24.00/pint!... I must be nuts!

MJ"""


When I got my lino I got a lifetime supply, it was all smelted into ingots at the same time, thus it is all the same, maybe not the same as yours but the drum of ingots I have are all the same.

The other ingredients in the proportion I have quoted are NOT insignificant, it is simply all the shtuff you need, (I did do some playing). And I would NOT get rid of the liquid lanolin, it makes the lube flexible I.E not brittle like orange magic. The orange oil may be expendable, but It makes the lube estrogen friendly for creations made in the house, plus it does have SOME solvent effect. I have also been playing with the addition of some alox 350 in the mix, but the results are inconclusive, as of yet.

As far as the hippie store is concerned you have to want something real bad to walk in there in the first place, so no you are not CRAZY for buying it. If you simply MUST use MORE of the oils only add 3 or 4 lbs of beeswax, but it MAY induce unwanted flyers ( it has for me)

As far as benevolence, you all caught me on a day I felt like sharing. I have reaped alot of info from you fellas and I felt it was time to give something back. I am still playing and perfecting my lubes, and I have been a little amiss to share, cause I would not want to encourage the costliness of this mental lube thing I got going on in my brain.

This can happen if you start truly pushing the guts out of a lube, and do it for groups not just leading ot lack thereof:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1557&stc=1&d=1148770411

Michael

[Marlin Junky]

Well, well Michael you ARE the bullet lube king. I like the purple lube, it's pretty. :mrgreen:

Anyway, I did a search for jojoba oil and came up with this guy:

http://www.jojobaking.com/

He's selling jojoba oil for 50 bucks a gallon. Does anyone have experience dealing with him?

MJ

[357maximum]

"The King" more like a curious court jester, but thanks:Fire: :Fire: :Fire:

The doors under that table are full of oil rich "failures" that will someday be launched on some 38 S&W's, 38 specials and other non demanding low speed play stuff of the like. Or if need be some day I could just add more beeswax to them to make them better.

The purple lube is actually a lube I named p^$$y pink lube, because on the boolit it looks the color of well you know. The pride of the bunch is the dark orange lube on the far back left, it has done everything I have asked of it to date, and as far as the oil content Yes it is weak compared to the others. From what I have learned thus far you do NOT need as much oil as most people think. I started at high content percentages and as I have lessened the amounts things have improved, alot. Too much of a good thing will cause flyers due to overlubrication.



That jojoba oil price don't look that bad and I have thought about ordering from him also. Maybe if someone talked to him we could orchestrate a group buy of some sort. It would depend on interest, but it is a thought.


Michael

[Marlin Junky]

Michael,

Have you ever lubed rifle bullets to be launched beyond 2K fps with just beeswax blended with a little jojoba oil?

After the discussion here I'm wondering if lanolin is even necessary. However, all my lubing is pan lubing so I like the lube to be a little on the soft side (still harder than Javelina) and a little sticky so the bullets come out of the lube with the grooves nicely filled. I don't remove the bullets from the lube with a cutter of any kind I just place the pan in the freezer after the lube has cooled to room temp. This shrinks the lube away from the pan so it can be easily removed from the pan. After the lube comes back to room temp I punch the bullets out of the lube.

MJ

[357maximum]

"Have you ever lubed rifle bullets to be launched beyond 2K fps with just beeswax blended with a little jojoba oil?"

YES, I have it will work, but I still like the liquid lanolin because of the flex and tack it supplies. Plus it allows me to make a soft enough lube without inducing flyers.

pure jojoba oil added at the rate of 2 TBLSP's per pound "works" but it has no flex and in my simulated winter shooting tests I had erratic performance. simply adding more did not make the brittle nature or standard deviation problem go away.

1TBLSP jojoba and 1TBLSP liquid lanolin to 1 pound cappings grade yellow hard beeswax will cover 90 percent of what any of us wants in a lube. Adding johnsons seems to shinify the bore, but it makes the lube too soft so you need more wax, and the orange oil seems to also have a solvent effect so I keep it. Before I knew it I ended up with the 5 pound batches I quoted earlier. The ivory is not totally neccessary either, but if you cool it rapidly in the freezer you will see why it can be important, plus it raises melt point a bit. I have also played with some recipes using microcrysstalline wax, but they need some tweaking yet. For the most part of this journey I have simply thought too hard, but in the end I am happy with this.

MIKES MAGICAL MYSTERY LUBE
5 lbs beeswax
1 TBLSP Ivory
1 TBLSP Jojoba
2 TBLSP natural orange oil
1 TBLSP Johnsons p.w
1 TBLSP liquid lanolin
colored candle dye or chips of you choosing ( I will use orange or red if I ever run low on lube) which will be at least a day or two.

I just hope I spared at least one person from going through the insanity of it all. It was an expensive lesson, but fun none the least.

EDIT: One more thing DO NOT ever add something like kroil to a lube I did and it showed promise at first, but a couple a weeks later them loads leaded to beat the band. All I can figure is that the kroil slowly creeps into the pores of the lead and actually softens the skin of a boolit.

[Marlin Junky]

One last question Mike,

I have several pounds of anhydrous lanolin and want to use it instead of investing in liquid lanolin. What should I do... simply substitute 1 Tbs. of anhydrous lanolin for the 1 Tbs. of liquid lanolin in your recipe, or thin my anhydrous lanolin with something?

I want to say thanks for all the info you provided. This has been a very educational thread.

MJ

[357maximum]

liquid or semi solid should make no difference. I chose liquid simply because measuring the goo from a tube was less than perfect.

[Dale53]

You can easily melt the Anhydrous Lanolin (in a double boiler) and then measure it while liquid....

Dale53

[Newtire]

Sorry, missed the thing about using crayons to add color. I bought some wax canle dye at the stationary/craft store but it did not give any real color. Used blue and red. I have a big bunch of Felix lube that would look purdier I think.

[357maximum]

Yaley 3/4 oz candle dye blocks,,,,,,the fuschia blocks seem to go the furthest, and will be in all future renditions of MY lube...

[PerversPépère]

Anyone tried to incorporate synthetic motor oil in a recipe? Like 20W50 or something?
I know it is very detergent but maybe it could be interesting to see what the Lube Masters could do with it... :-D
PP.

[Pop Gun]

Anyone tried to incorporate synthetic motor oil in a recipe? Like 20W50 or something?
I know it is very detergent but maybe it could be interesting to see what the Lube Masters could do with it... :-D
PP.


Pepe,

Sure. Some use synthetic ATF. I have used Mobil one. I have shot synthetic grease with Lithium which I prefer actually for hot AND cold weather. The only drawback to it is that you have to watch the flash point when you make it. But it blends and won't seperate without any vodo as long as you add a teaspoon of soap whether that be sterate or alox. Takes 15 minutes and you are done.

People would be surprised what can be done with plain ol'bees wax and carnuba. Add something like SynPower grease from Valvoline with a high break down temperature resistance and won't thicken to -70 degrees and you can play right with jacketed. 2/3rds BW to 1/3 grease by volume and you have it plus a teaspoon of Alox. Adjust the mix until you get a consistency or hardness you like by adding more or less of either ingredient. Stinks to high heaven, but is so simple, even I can't screw it up. Some people refer to this as a Lithi-Bee derivitive.

People make a lot more out of lube than needs to be. You will hear all manner of things like lube seals or this or that. In the end it comes down to one simple thing. Your best accuracy occurs when you use the smallest amount you need at the set of conditions you establish to prevent leading. If lube was really required to seal, then the more you used the better off you would be.

Lube really isn't that complicated.

[PerversPépère]

People would be surprised what can be done with plain ol'bees wax and carnuba.
Where exactly can I find Carnauba wax? are there commonly bought over the counter products that contain enough of that wax to be useable or do I have to look after it in places catering to the needs of hobbyists (like Lee Valley Tools in Canada)?
PP.:confused:

[felix]

http://www.thesage.com/catalog/FixedOil.html?mmsID=db2cf044b3bcad205f3a48bf1d3555 a5

[Doughty]

"People make a lot more out of lube than needs to be. You will hear all manner of things like lube seals or this or that. In the end it comes down to one simple thing. Your best accuracy occurs when you use the smallest amount you need at the set of conditions you establish to prevent leading. If lube was really required to seal, then the more you used the better off you would be." Pop Gun



It seems to me that once something is "sealed, then it's sealed." Kind of like the old saying about being part pregnant. If we add time to sealed, then we could have something along the lines of, "She wasn't pregnant at all, then she was completely pregnant, and then she wasn't pregnant at all." Or to put it in cast bullet terms, "The bore wasn't sealed, then during the time period in which the bullet is traveling trough the barrel, the bore was sealed, and then, when the bullet had left the barrel, it wasn't." If by "sealed," it is mean't that gas from the burnt propellant can't pass by the bullet, during the time the bullet is passing through the barrel. And, if, a lead bullet by its self, cannot maintain this condition during this time, and, if, a "lubed" bullet could maintain this condition, then I would term the "lube" to actually be a "sealant." However, once there is enough "lube" to create and maintain a sealed condition during the specified time period, then more "lube" would not seal any more and therefore "more lube" would not necessarily be better.

Guess I'm one of those "people"s who say "all manner of things."

[PerversPépère]

:drinks: I like that!:drinks:
I never thought I could find that levelof reflexion off a discussion on lubricants..:mrgreen:
PP.

[Pop Gun]

"It seems to me that once something is "sealed, then it's sealed."
However, once there is enough "lube" to create and maintain a sealed condition during the specified time period, then more "lube" would not seal any more and therefore "more lube" would not necessarily be better.

Guess I'm one of those "people"s who say "all manner of things."


Ol Vic,

I am fairly simple minded and approach this logically. I can go on to list dozens of things that point away from any faset of a seal. At the very least, the term sealed is misleading. Here are 5.

1. No matter how much lube you put on a bullet, if the lead is hard and the pressure low, no seal will ever take place. This is why the mix has to be taylored to the pressure level. Someone gave us the term obturation which means to close or obstruct. Seal.

2. Since you can shoot a lead bullet without any lube what so ever and not get any leading or gas cutting, then what effected the seal? Norm Johnson / 357 Magnum written up in the Fouling Shot. So from this, it would seem that if bullet fit prevents friction and metal hardness is hard enough to resist obturation, lube isn't necessary for seal.

3. Long believed that cut rifling was the finest cast bullet rifling, Ol timers used to bring their rifles in to be refreshed. This placed tools marks in the grooves that ran the enire length of the bore making any seal impossible since no bullet occupied the entire length.

4. A bullet / barrel relationship can be simplest described as a simple shaft and bearing. If you fail to lubricate a bearing it will get hot and it will expand or in this case swell. Thus increase the seal pressure until it destroys itself.

5. When a bore leads down the bore, it fails because the lube fails to lubricate, not because it failed to seal.

So in the end, if you really want to play on words, lube actually "PREVENTS" a metal to metal seal. So how can something designed to prevent something actually cause something?

[44man]

Been thinking about, if this old brain is capable that is! "Thinking" is a long forgotten process. I look at it this way; the lube is just that, a lube that prevents lead from rubbing off against steel. Any lead that is rubbed off can leave a path for gas to sqeeze into, cutting more lead off. The lube has to be of a consistancy and formula to match the boolit size, weight and velocity, maybe also the type of gun too. ( Could this be the reason some of you like one lube better then another while some say another is better?) Maybe with light boolits and low velocity loads the lead itself would act as a lube and no extra is needed. Not for me to find out, I like lube.
Then I would say the lube has to stay in the grooves to the end of the bore and not purge out in the first few inches. Then I like all of the lube to leave the boolit when it exits the muzzle and not leave little hard chunks stuck here and there in the grooves to throw the boolit out of balance. A lot of you spend hours and hours making, sorting and weighing boolits, then stuff a hard, brittle lube on them. Pick up some down range only to find some chunks left on the boolit. I like any lube left in the grooves to at least spin evenly around from centrifugal force to balance out.
If ALL of the lube is still on recovered boolits, it didn't do it's job at all.
The question of lube "sealing" sounds funny. Do you mean some grease or oil can resist 30 to 50,000 pounds of gas pressure? Can it fill a gap around undersize boolits and actually stay there?

[44man]

This has been a good post and you are all doing another thing that sounds like fun. Making lubes pretty colors. I like the idea so you can tell one from another if you make different kinds but I have to carry this even farther. I think pink would be ideal for shooting doe and red for bucks. Trouble is that I'll be darned if I can tell what color a lube is when it is loaded unless I leave a little on the boolit. Guess I have to look down the bore to see if I have the right color up next--HAA HAA. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, some dummy might try it! So I have to say " WARNING" don't do it.
I will admit one thing, I never wipe the bullet off after loading and there is always a little lube on the ogive. I never carry them loose in a dirty pocket, extras go in one of those little plastic wallets.
Yeah guys, I am going to buy some dye too.

[robertbank]

Just managed to read through three pages and my head is spinning. I have at least three tubes worth of Felix lube to go through, then I got to find some jojoba oil up here (now that might be an interesting hunt), and call Felix for help. Way to much information in this thread to digest at one time. This place is amazing.

Take Care Eh

Bob

[Doughty]

Pop Gun,

Good morning sir.

There is a sign in a local cafe that states something to the effect that, "Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a while you come to realize that the pig likes it." I'm not a truck driver, but, sometimes, I do like a good wrestle in the mud.

Lists?

First, to help things along, some definitions:

With a little help from dictionary.com, I give you:

1. Sealant: A substance that joins two systems or elements in such a way as to prevent leakage.

2. Lubricant: something that diminishes friction.

3. Friction: The rubbing of one object or surface against another.

From our previous discussion we have:

4. sealed: "gas from the burnt propellant can't pass by the bullet, during the time the bullet is passing through the barrel."

5. obturation: "to close or obstruct. Seal."

Next I will state an assumption that I believe is held by us all, that "leading" in the barrel is an unwanted condition, and in general causes a lower level of accuracy than if there were no leading.

If this is true, then what causes leading is of interest.

I believe leading can be caused by:

1. Friction...That causes lead to be removed from the bullet and deposited in the barrel.

I believe friction can be caused by or increased by:

1. A "rough" bore such as pitting, gouges, or carbon deposits.

2. A "smooth" bore when lead is rubbed against it at a high enough speed to create sufficent heat.

3. Hot, fast moving gases from burnt propellant rubbing against the bullet.

I further believe that friction can be stopped or decreased by:

1. decreasing roughness in bores

2. use of a lubricant to decrease rubbing between bore and bullet.

3. use of a sealant to prevent hot gases from getting to surface of bullet, thereby preventing friction.

I believe that a substance can be both a sealant and a lubricant.

As regards your contention #1, I agree in part. I agree that obturated lead can seal a bore.
Condition 1: a bullet smaller than the barrel diameter is inserted and upon firing a high enough pressure is applied to the base to expand the bullet to a large enough diameter that the barrel is sealed.
Condition 2: a bullet larger than the barrel diameter is forced into the barrel by mechanical means (schuetzen breech seating for instance) and a seal can be created when any pressure is a applied. For instance, firng a cartridge with only a primer and no powder. When the action is then opened, sometimes the case will "pop" out (sealed) and sometimes it won't (not sealed).

The common desire for obturation (seal) leads me to believe that seal is good.

Contention #2. Lead is an amazing substance. It can be used as lubricant, such as in old gasoline. It can be used as a sealant, such as plumbers use to seal drain pipes. However, I believe when used in it's pure form, as a cast bullet, that it's performance range is very narrow. Alloy strength, pressure curve, bore condition and length all affect this range. I think lube/sealants increase this range.

I don't think that "bullet fit prevents friction." By definintion, surfaces rubbing together create friction. The bullet rubbing against the barrel creates friction. A lubricant decreases that. Hot propellant gases rub against the bullet creating friction. A seal created by obturation or by use of a sealant (definition #1) prevents that.

Contention #3. I always thought of "freshening a barrel" as a way to square up and make more consistent, barrels that were worn out. The striations left in the barrel were a problem that would be difficult to over come with a bare lead bullet, but that had a better chance of sealing if a good "lube" as the "Ol timers" called it, were used.

Contention #4. In automotive type terms, I like to think of the piston in a engine as being like a bullet. It connects to the cylinder (barrel) by means of a mechanical fit (rings) and then by use of oil, which is of course a lubricant/sealant.

Contention #5. Having come full circle, I believe that when a bore leads, it leads because of friction. Friction can be created by lead bullet rubbing on steel barrel or by hot gases rubbing on bullet and barrel. A lubricant/sealant can decrease or prevent this effect.

As to your last question, "So how can something designed to prevent something actually cause something?" Seems a shame sometimes, but as they say "things happen." I think of religion and cocaine.



PP, I agree with you, who'd a thunk it?

[Doughty]

44 man,

"The question of lube "sealing" sounds funny. Do you mean some grease or oil can resist 30 to 50,000 pounds of gas pressure? Can it fill a gap around undersize boolits and actually stay there?"

Yes, thats what I mean. Another example that I can think of is in the oil fields. I've been told that when drilling holes in to high gas pressure areas, that a lubricant/sealant is used on the circulating drill to prevent gas leakage.

I don't visualize it so much as an undersize boolit, but more as an imperfectly round boolit fit to an imperfectly round barrel.

[felix]

Sealing? Yes, but not as a pressure o-ring per se. More like providing a coat, a barrel protector of sorts. Always best to have the bore freshly coated with a light oil, or thinned down lube, before the first shot. ... felix

[44man]

We can look at it another way. Most of us have one of those garden sprayers that we pump up with air. I wore the plastic pump seal until I could not get any pressure in the tank. I poured STP in on it and still could not get a seal. Tried everything with no luck. I smoothed the edges and cleaned the tube, nothing. We are talking low pressure here that I could not get to work even if I jammed the handle as fast and hard as I could.
I made a new seal out of leather and it works fine until I let it sit for months so the leather drys out. Then it will not pump until I soak the leather in oil.
Is the oil making the seal? Or could it be the leather has softened to form to the tube?
I was an auto mechanic a lot of my life and majored in it in school. The engine oil is a lubricant and coolant, not a sealant. ( Why does an engine have seals on everything? You have main seals, gaskets, piston rings and valve seals.) Once the rings wear and you get blowby, no oil will correct it. Unlike a worn bearing where a thicker oil will fill some space because the oil is under pressure from the pump, oil on the cylinder walls is not under pressure from below (It is there from splash.) and gas pressure and even raw gas will leak past the piston from above. When the loose rings go past the oil on the walls without scraping it back into the crankcase, the oil burns. Blue smoke like Alox. A pressure build up in the crankcase will force more oil above the piston, more blue smoke. Then add the worn valve guides that oil can't seal--- remember that "can't seal" and you have to pour a lot of oil into the engine. Look at the breather pipe on an older engine and tell me oil is sealing the engine! Now we have the best invention ever on engines, the PCV valve, that lets the blowby get burned away to prevent sludge. If oil was a good sealer, we would never have to fix worn engines. An engine would never need perfect mating surfaces or gaskets either. Does your engine drip any oil? Why doesn't the oil seal the leaky spots?
Same thing happens with a small boolit. You will never convince me that the lube is "SEALING" the bore. The pressure from powder is a WHOLE lot more then the pressure above a piston.
The oil used in the oil fields is pumped to the drill with a higher pressure then the gas pressure from below. Air pressure would do the same except they need the lube for the drill bit.

[PAT303]

Just on the drill bit part, I work in a coal mine and can get tins of the lube they use on drill bits, it's called "break out grease" I wonder if it could be used as a high pressure, high speed lube. Biggest problem with lube is that you make up a big batch of wonder lube only to find that next week someone made something better. PAT

[David2011]

A bit off topic but to clarify some earlier posts:

I'm not convinced boolit lube will resist 15,000 psi or more to "seal" a bore if it flows at 125 degrees or less in a sizer. I figure that's the job of obturation.

The fluids used for oil and gas well drilling don't "seal" anything in the sense discussed here.

The jobs of a drilling fluid are to control well pressure and to carry away the cuttings.

When drilling in a high pressure zone the mud engineer has to design a drilling fluid with a weight at the pressure zone that exceeds the pressure of that zone. This is done with two things- the height of the fluid column and the weight of the fluid. Fresh water builds pressure at about 0.4 psi/foot of depth with a weight of about 8.35 lb/gallon. Ocean saltwater at 8.56 lb/gal increases pressure at about .45 psi per foot of depth. Heavy brine solutions can weigh up to about twive the weight of fresh water. Typical drilling fluids have finely ground barite as the weighting agent along with common and proprietary additives to aid in corrosion resistance, lubricity and fluid loss into the formation. There is not sufficient viscosity to cause a seal with the thickness of the drilling fluid. It's purely the weight in column that provides pressure control. Interestingly, at least to me, sometimes a lighter brine will control pressure better than a heavier barite based fluid because it's possible for the mud based fluid to foam under certain conditions which reduced the weight at depth. Straight brine doesn't hold the gas bubbles so it won't foam up so 14 lb/gal brine may control a blowout condition when heavier mud won't. Some wells are drilled with compressed air or natural gas instead of a liquid. The problem with air drilling is that if you have a downhole fire the compressed air keeps it supplied with oxygen. Wells drilled with natural gas won't support compustion because there's no oxygen down hole.

David

[StarMetal]

A bit off topic but to clarify some earlier posts:

I'm not convinced boolit lube will resist 15,000 psi or more to "seal" a bore if it flows at 125 degrees or less in a sizer. I figure that's the job of obturation.

The fluids used for oil and gas well drilling don't "seal" anything in the sense discussed here.

The jobs of a drilling fluid are to control well pressure and to carry away the cuttings.

When drilling in a high pressure zone the mud engineer has to design a drilling fluid with a weight at the pressure zone that exceeds the pressure of that zone. This is done with two things- the height of the fluid column and the weight of the fluid. Fresh water builds pressure at about 0.4 psi/foot of depth with a weight of about 8.35 lb/gallon. Ocean saltwater at 8.56 lb/gal increases pressure at about .45 psi per foot of depth. Heavy brine solutions can weigh up to about twive the weight of fresh water. Typical drilling fluids have finely ground barite as the weighting agent along with common and proprietary additives to aid in corrosion resistance, lubricity and fluid loss into the formation. There is not sufficient viscosity to cause a seal with the thickness of the drilling fluid. It's purely the weight in column that provides pressure control. Interestingly, at least to me, sometimes a lighter brine will control pressure better than a heavier barite based fluid because it's possible for the mud based fluid to foam under certain conditions which reduced the weight at depth. Straight brine doesn't hold the gas bubbles so it won't foam up so 14 lb/gal brine may control a blowout condition when heavier mud won't. Some wells are drilled with compressed air or natural gas instead of a liquid. The problem with air drilling is that if you have a downhole fire the compressed air keeps it supplied with oxygen. Wells drilled with natural gas won't support compustion because there's no oxygen down hole.

David

That's all well and fine with drilling wells. The thing is with what you described the water, brine, etc, are pushing against another material that has pressure. In a rifle barrel the gas is trying to escape to an area of lesser pressure, in this case atmospheric pressure, which is no contestant at all for the very high pressure gas. When the gas first starts trying to get past the base of the bullet there is no lube present to seal it. When if finds a flaw or somehow gets past the base then it encounters lube. So what happens then? Does it try to occupy the space the lube is and actually push some of it back through the hole that it itself came throught? If the bullet is obturated where's it going to push the lube too. If the lube is under pressure from the bullet being compressed to fit the bore, then I can see a seal. Now if the gas has a route to get past the entire bullet, I guarantee you it's going to push the lube out in front of it. Make yourself a small cylinder with a solid wall blocking it inside. Drill a tiny hole in that wall. Put lube on one side and either with a piston or high pressure air, pressure up the lube side of the cylinder. You better believe lube is going through that little hole as long as it has no solid impurities in it to "clot" the hole.

Joe

[Longwood]

It's good to hear from a Jojoba witness that knows the proper spelling. ;-)

[44man]

Hey, I found coconut oil at Martin's food store but you have to go to the section where it says "organic." I wanted the flavor to make my copy of Bailey's Irish Cream. I could not find coconut cream. I can only tell you the oil does not work in drinks! :veryconfu
Another good oil to try for lube is safflower oil, seems to have a very high smoke point.
I also never try to pan lube with Felix because of the Ivory soap, makes it tough to melt and I don't want to ruin it.
Jojoba is the replacement for whale oil and I still have a bottle of real sperm whale oil. I bought it at Wes Kindig's so long ago, the price was $1 for 8oz. Both are great lubes for fine machinery.

[Four Fingers of Death]

It's good to hear from a Jojoba witness

Sounds like some sort of cult religion! :D

[Longwood]

Hey, I found coconut oil at Martin's food store but you have to go to the section where it says "organic." I wanted the flavor to make my copy of Bailey's Irish Cream. I could not find coconut cream. I can only tell you the oil does not work in drinks! :veryconfu
Another good oil to try for lube is safflower oil, seems to have a very high smoke point.
I also never try to pan lube with Felix because of the Ivory soap, makes it tough to melt and I don't want to ruin it.
Jojoba is the replacement for whale oil and I still have a bottle of real sperm whale oil. I bought it at Wes Kindig's so long ago, the price was $1 for 8oz. Both are great lubes for fine machinery.
How about cocoa butter? I bet it would smell good. Might cut down on the stink of Trail Boss some.
One reason Jojoba oil is so useful in some places is no bacteria will grow in it. They use it a lot in satellites because of that reason, plus it works very well in the cold.
As far as vegetable oil goes, Martha S. says peanut oil will get about the hottest before it starts smoking.

[btroj]

Cocoa butter melts at about room temp, that is why it was a common suppository base in the past. Not sure i want lube that melts at that low a temp.

[Longwood]

Cocoa butter melts at about room temp, that is why it was a common suppository base in the past. Not sure i want lube that melts at that low a temp.
What temp does the vegy (Jojoba etc.) oil melt at that so many people recommend?

[Four Fingers of Death]

Cocoa butter melts at about room temp, that is why it was a common suppository base in the past. Not sure i want lube that melts at that low a temp.

Bummer! :D

[44man]

What temp does the vegy (Jojoba etc.) oil melt at that so many people recommend?
It is already liquid and any good oil just aids other ingredients. The idea is to protect lube from flashing and burning behind a boolit.
The only other need for a higher melt temp is in loaded ammo in the heat. Some kind of soap aids that. Soap also keeps lube from separating when it cools. Murphy's oil soap works in many BPCR lubes. Ivory is great for smokeless lubes.
I have to defer to Felix, he knows why.
By the way, most ATF lubes are seed based because they take heat better.
Lube Gard valve and assembly lubricant is a good addition to lube. Ballistol also works great.