Long range muzzle loading

[Frank46]

I have a question. Pedersoli makes a great long range muzzle loading rifle. Ok, they say 70grs of powder is max. I have heard of shooters using these rifles with loads over that amount. Now they have to go to berillium or platnum nipples cause the powder charges burn out the nipples. Can someone tell me why these loads are used instead of the 70grs I have read about?. Inquiring minds wish to know. Frank

[waksupi]

Frank, I think the ones who want to shoot more powder, have a case of magnumitis. Considering how well things such as a .45-70, or a .50-70 seem to manage on the 70 gr. load, I would consider this sufficient. You don't necessarily want speed in these rifles. You want to gently boost the big ol' boolit on it's way, not slap it on the butt, and tell it to get out of there!.

[Frank46]

waksupi, thanks for the info. Had heard stories about the standard nipples being burnt out in about 60 rounds. Could never understand why one would go with hotter loads in this rifle. Thanks, Frank

[Buckshot]

..............What, they list a max charge of 70 grs? That must be lawyerspeak. If you get one of these long range MLing rifles you'll find them to be like any other. You have to work up your loads for them. That's boolit temper, design (GG or PP), and powder (maker, type, and charge). Add to that lube ( kind, how much and where), wads (felt and/or card), and lube cookies. Plus you can delve into percussion caps.

Happily a lot of knowlegeable shooters spent great amounts of time, effort, and money back in the late 1850's to the late 1870's in getting them fairly well figured out. We can have the same type boolit's, lube, and wads, similar caps and nipples. What we lack that they had was the developed black powder. As it was the ONLY propellant it was extremely well developed and a myriad of makers and types were available.

That is not so today. We have Goex, Wano, KiK, and Swiss, to the best of my knowledge. A very poor representation as to what they had to work with. Very possibly the Swiss product comes closest to being similar to the "Sporting Grades", they used and if so we have just the one.

Yet we can cut the work involved in developing a load by reading about what they used and did. You'll find that for 1000 yard shooting the loads hovered around 80 to 85grs of the best sporting grade BP. Some liked a particular French cap that was 'soft' but with a long flame (timewise I think). Boolits were usually of lead and tin, but they knew of and did use some alloys with antimony successfully. THese rifles operate at high pressures for a muzzle loader and WILL upset a fairly hard boolit.

That brings us to the nipple, and why it doesn't last very long. Pressures. The best back then were Platinum lined, and you can get those or also carbide lined. A simple hardened steel nipple will be useless in maybe 40 shots, and begin to deliver shots out of the group before then. Stainless steel is no better. The Berrillium-Copper nipples are a step up from there but a serious competitor will have a lined nipple. The Be-Cu nipples are fine for 20-30 GOOD shots but as with the steel ones begin to deteriorate at the first shot. Just more slowly. To be sure, at much closer ranges they'll perform for quite awile.

Typicly you'd use a drop tube when dropping the (scaled) powder charge, so as to have it entirely in the breech and settled. Next would be 2 card wads sandwiching a lube disc. Then a lubed felt wad. Then the bore would be wiped clean and the boolit seated so as to just 'touch' and rest against the felt wad. In the days before windage adjustable rear tang sights, at this point you'd make any windage adjustments required from seeing the last shot, or a change in conditions. As the windage was in the front sight, and you're standing there next to it :-). The rear tangsights were elevation adjustable only, until later on.

As to the loading proceedure mentioned above, that is only an example and bears no reality to what some individual may find working well for them. With the exception of possibly the use of the drop tube.

...............Buckshot

[DLCTEX]

Buckshot: So should I be concerned about gas cutting on the nipples of my Ruger Old Army when using heavy charges?

[waksupi]

Buckshot is definitely da' Man on these type of rifles. I was just giving you my gut instinct on them. And they would be fun to have....

[Buckshot]

Buckshot: So should I be concerned about gas cutting on the nipples of my Ruger Old Army when using heavy charges?

...............All nipples eventually erode so it is something to watch for. When you can eyeball detect a difference in a new and used nipple it's past time to change. Most guys that are serious about it buy one of those torch nozzle reamer packet deals, and use them as gage pins to check erosion.

Nipple condition makes a huge difference in accuracy. I can personally attest to it. Many years ago I bought a cheap Zouave. I was never serious about it and might as well have been setting off firecrakers as all I was doing was making noise and smoke. Years later I gave it to a buddie's son as he'd gotten into muzzle loaders since he was too young to buy anything else.

Some 4 -5 years later when he was going off to college he gave it back. It didn't do much better for him and he tried. I'd seen him shooting it. Since I had it back and was a bit better versed in the ins and outs of MLers I pulled the nipple. Holy Smoke! It looked like someone had run a 1/16" drill bit though the nipple. I found it took the same 5/16-18 thread my P58 did so I put in a new steel nipple.

I'm a sonuvagun if that thing didn't produce some groups worthy of note! I mean it would shoot. Since it was at least 30 years old and had been treated with almost dedicated neglect, the top foot of the barrel had some corrosion in the bore. I cut the barrel back to 22" and made a kind of cavalry carbine out of it. With that new nipple and correctly sized Minie' bullets, I sure have no complaints about how it does. Well, recoil is noticeably sharper :-)

..................Buckshot

[carpetman]

Buckshot---I never knew you were so much into nipples and such a connoisseur,I'm rather fond of them myself.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot---I never knew you were so much into nipples and such a connoisseur,I'm rather fond of them myself.

..................They have their attractions :-)

....................Buckshot

[30yrcaster]

A couple things not mentioned here.

There's another feature of the platinum lined nipple. The small .028 hole. Std nipples seem to be around .035 and when using larger charges with heavier bullets, the pressure will send your hammer to half or even full cock after the shot. A friend of mine had his go past full cock and broke the lock before he knew about the hole size. Luckily I benefited from his experience and knew what to do when it happened to me. Mine only went to half cock with 300 gr bullets. The ampro bronze nipples also have a small hole either .027 or .028 and that takes care of the hammer problem. The ampro nipples last quite a bit longer than std stainless. Get a set of pin gauges from .027 - .035 or number drill bits (60-80) and you can check when the hole is getting too large then use a new one. The platinum lined nipples cost $50.

Also keep in mind using 3F will blow out the platinum nipple so it's not recommended for this even though some guys use it. Your $50 will soon be gone.

The other item not mentioned, is for long range muzzleloading, the goal is to get a 500 - 550 gr 45 cal bullet to go 1300 fps. That's not going to happen with 70 gr of powder unless you're talking 3f and most don't use it. The black powder cartridge guys can't get 1300 fps with the 45-70 unless they seat the bullet out as far as it will go and put in more than 70 gr. Many prefer the larger 45 cal calibers ie. 45-90 and larger.

Check out LRML.org. They have alot of info there but I don't see much about loads. It seems everyone is afraid to tell anyone how much bp they actually use. Maybe for liability or maybe they just don't want to give up their pet load. If you can find them check out score sheets from long range muzzleloading matches, many of them have a "equipment list" which usually includes the loads guys used. Again, the goal is 1300 fps with the 500 - 550 gr bullets for 1000 yd. Your equipment needs to be able to handle this. Read the section about breech plugs on LRML.org.

[windwalker]

frank if you a talking about the gibs long range riffle then the max charge that pedersoli list is 130 grn ff with a 475 to 535 grn bullet you can se it on this page they give all the max loads for the pedersoli muzzel loaders.just klick on the web page klick on tech info and scroll down till you see Dick Trenk - Pedersoli Muzzle Loading Rifle Powder Charge Selection it is good read
bernie :-D

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm