Puma .45Colt Failure to extract

[curator]

My Puma .45 Colt has developed an increasing tendency to not extract after firing. At first I blamed the R-P brass that had been reloaded several times. Now the extractor seems to slip off the rim of every third case, even new ones. I have cleaned the bolt face and under the extractor carefully. Is this a design fault, weak extractor spring (is there one?) or the extractor itself? Is this a common problem with the .45 Colt and its tiny rim?

[StarMetal]

I've noticed with my levers that the extractor seems to chew up the rims pretty good. I'm wondering, since you said you've reloaded them a few times, if that little rim is chewed up. The Remington brass I have has groove by the rim where as my Winchester is not as pronounced. That's saying I think the extractor should get a better purchase on the Remington brass.

Joe

[runfiverun]

try cleaning under the extractor,and the little notch cut into the top of the bbl.
you might need a new extractor or just a good cleaning that area is exposed to the elements.
and is held in place with a little pin.
i had a 94 that i was able to pull down and bend the extractor just a bit to get it back into shape. i also had to file the back side of the extractor a couple of strokes to reflatten the angle a tad.

[MtGun44]

I am very suspicious of .45 LC in the old leverguns. They were never intended for this
cartridge, .44 WCF was the largest that most were designed for. I have wondered if
the tiny rim plus the need to modify the old 92 or 73s etc for the larger head diameter
doesn't leave the space available for the extractor below the minimum for durability.

I have heard of several local cowboy shooters that have had ongoing issues with extractors
wearing quickly or breaking with .45 LC, but not with .44-40 (.44 WCF) which was the
original design caliber, and came with a real rim. Remember, the rim on the .45 LC was
only there to keep the case from driving forward as the hammer hit the primer, not for
extraction. The available space on the Colt SAAs severely limits the rim size that can
be put on modern cases. So you have a really marginal rim and an extractor that is forced
to work in too small a space. Not a lot of surprise that there are ongoing problems.

It'd be interesting to know if the .44 mag/.44 WCF versions of these original levergun
designs have much lower incidence of extractor problems than the .45 LC. My personal
knowledge says it is, but that is a very small and unscientific sample.

Bill

[StarMetal]

I am very suspicious of .45 LC in the old leverguns. They were never intended for this
cartridge, .44 WCF was the largest that most were designed for. I have wondered if
the tiny rim plus the need to modify the old 92 or 73s etc for the larger head diameter
doesn't leave the space available for the extractor below the minimum for durability.

I have heard of several local cowboy shooters that have had ongoing issues with extractors
wearing quickly or breaking with .45 LC, but not with .44-40 (.44 WCF) which was the
original design caliber, and came with a real rim. Remember, the rim on the .45 LC was
only there to keep the case from driving forward as the hammer hit the primer, not for
extraction. The available space on the Colt SAAs severely limits the rim size that can
be put on modern cases. So you have a really marginal rim and an extractor that is forced
to work in too small a space. Not a lot of surprise that there are ongoing problems.

It'd be interesting to know if the .44 mag/.44 WCF versions of these original levergun
designs have much lower incidence of extractor problems than the .45 LC. My personal
knowledge says it is, but that is a very small and unscientific sample.

Bill

Bill,

I understand what you are saying about the body diameter of the 45 Colt doesn't leave much rim for the extractor to grasp, but I'm lost on your comment about the Colt SAA has limited space for a big rim. Take a look at the two diagrams of the 44-40 and 45 Colt. The 44-40 has a much larger rim then the 45 Colt yet was chambered in many Colt SAA's. Am I misunderstanding you there?

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd4440winchester.jpg
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd45colt.jpg

Joe

[NickSS]

It sounds to me like you have either dirt under the extractor or your extractor is defective. I have had other guns that had failed extractors and they did not really look like they had failed but upon replacement the gun worked fine again. This is especially true of Remington bolt guns I have replaced at least six in the past 49 years. In lever guns I replace one in a 94 win 30-30 as it was doing the same thin your puma is doing and that fixed it.

[cajun shooter]

Mt. Gun 44, You are mixing up the true facts about the 45 Colt brass case. The original 45 Colt case was of a balloon head design and had no rim for the extractor to get a hold of. That is the only reason that the early rifles did not chamber for it, no other as it will out class the 44-40 any day. The 45 Colt cases that we buy today have more than ample rim to work in the lever rifle. I have owned 3 45 Colt rifles and used them in competition with out any failures. I suspect that the rifle in question has a possible rough chamber that is causing the hard extraction or a bad extractor. The modern 45 Colt case can be loaded to a range that will out perform the mighty 44 mag. The case itself is just as strong and has no rim problems.

[StarMetal]

Mt. Gun 44, You are mixing up the true facts about the 45 Colt brass case. The original 45 Colt case was of a balloon head design and had no rim for the extractor to get a hold of. That is the only reason that the early rifles did not chamber for it, no other as it will out class the 44-40 any day. The 45 Colt cases that we buy today have more than ample rim to work in the lever rifle. I have owned 3 45 Colt rifles and used them in competition with out any failures. I suspect that the rifle in question has a possible rough chamber that is causing the hard extraction or a bad extractor. The modern 45 Colt case can be loaded to a range that will out perform the mighty 44 mag. The case itself is just as strong and has no rim problems.

I've heard the balloon case and not enough rim story too. I've also heard something about Winchester not wanting to chamber their rifle for a Colt cartridge too.

Joe

[Calamity Jake]

My Puma .45 Colt has developed an increasing tendency to not extract after firing. At first I blamed the R-P brass that had been reloaded several times. Now the extractor seems to slip off the rim of every third case, even new ones. I have cleaned the bolt face and under the extractor carefully. Is this a design fault, weak extractor spring (is there one?) or the extractor itself? Is this a common problem with the .45 Colt and its tiny rim?

If you know how to tear down that Puma then you can remove the bolt then extractor and bend it down at the BACK END a little to add some tension and maybe look at the angle on the hook that slips over the rim and dress it with a fine file.
When you drive the pin out that holds the extractor in the top of the bolt there should be a small amount of spring action to the extractor, if there is not then try bending it down a little. It is hardened spring steel so bending it too much may break it, GO EASY.
Reassemble the rifle and test for function with dummy rounds.

If that fails to fix it contact Steve at stevesgunzs.com
he is the MAN on the Rossi 92-Puma LG
Steve will have the parts to fix it.

[runfiverun]

or you can find nate "kiowa" jones over on the levegunners forum.
he is tops with the 92's also.
if you can find a dvd on the 92 it will remove all the mystery to these neat little rifles.
they are not all that hard to repair yourself.

[Snyd]

I've never had a problem with mine with plinker or hot 45 Colts or hot 454's. I have a pdf of how to tear down the Puma 92 but it's too large to attach. PM me your email address and I'll email it to you. It's not a ripped off copyright protected document either.

[MtGun44]

"The original 45 Colt case was of a balloon head design and had no rim for the extractor. . ."

Balloon head design has nothing to do with the rim, but maybe you didn't
mean that it did. But -
NO rim??????? It had a very small rim, NOT intended for extraction but to
keep the case in place - headspacing the cartridge. I have seen photos of early
.45 LC cases and the rim was amazingly small, but there was a definite
rim there. I was really surprised how small it was until I realised
that they were not intended to be used for extraction, with the SAA interior
push extractor. Modern cases have a much more substantial rim than the
very early cases, but still a lot smaller than is conventional. From the
case dimensions shown you have a 0.016" rim vs a 0.027" rim, quite a lot
more to grab.

I do not know about the .44-40 vs .45 LC rim diameters comparison. Sounds like a
good point. I was told that the rim could not be enlarged more on the .45 LC due to
interference in the SAA. Sounds like that may not be true. I am away from home for
the holidays, but will look at my USFA SAA clone in .45 LC when I get home. Are the
two cylinders drilled on the same circle diameter? Maybe the .44-40 circle diam is
a tad larger, which might be OK due to smaller case diameter - you could run them
a bit farther out and keep the same minimum cyl wall dimension. Anybody with both calibers
of SAAs or clones could measure across and see if the circle that the holes are
drilled on is the same diameter.

Maybe the limit is the outside edge of the rim extending beyond the cylinder diameter.
If the circle diameter for the .44-40 was SMALLER because the drilled holes are smaller,
then maybe the rim would not hang out and drag on the top and bottom of the
frame window. So, maybe the 'can't make the rim larger due to the limits of the SAA'
is correct, but it is not due to rim to rim interference, but rim to frame interference. I
may have misinterpreted a correct statement.

I'm sure that the very small rim has to make it more difficult for the extractor to work
in .45 LCs. I was discussing this issue with a friend that shoots Cowboy Action a few
weeks back and he reported that his and several friend's replica leverguns had had repeated
issues with extractor problems with .45LC, but he had not seen this with .44-40 guns.
Might be the straight case vs bottle necked, too.

I do not have any leverguns in .45 LC, so I can't compare the actual extractors and see if
the manufacturers have had to change the part shape, or whether perhaps the straight
case and small rim are the culprit. Also - maybe this isn't actually a real problem and
the reports of multiple probs that I have heard of are just coincidences. All my pistol caliber
leverguns are .44 mag. Nice big rim and never any extraction issues.

Bill

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have 2 Rossi's in 45 Colt & so far no problems. Could just be the old fact that anything made by man is subject to defects, dirt and simple wear.

[NickSS]

The original colt round was made of folded copper much like a rimfire and inside primed. The shells looked like a rim fire and were not reloadable. The army also bought into the S&W revolver around 1876 and they used a center fire balloon headed case with a larger rim. The army had problems with the wrong ammo getting shipped so they fixed it in typical army way by adopting the schofield round for everything. This happened in the 1880s. Modern 45 Colt rounds actually have rims that are several thousandths larger in diameter than the original rounds but also have the rims undercut into the case head. This is why they work in lever actions today without a problem. As I said earlier in this string I think there is something wrong with the extractor and that is the first place I would look.

[curator]

Thanks to all! You guys are a great source of information and experience! The Puma is relatively new. I have fired about 600 rounds through it before it began having the extraction problem. I have cleaned it thoroughly, so dirt is not the problem. Modern .45 Colt cases do have a slightly larger rim than the original 1880s cases, but their rims are not as big as those on the .44-40 case. Nonetheless, the Cowboy action folks seem to be able to make the .45 Colt work fine in their leverguns. I will have a chance to take the gun apart this weekend and see about providing a bit more tension on the extractor by bending the part behind the pivot pin and see if that helps. I will also dress the tip if that appears to need it and let you know how I make out.

[cajun shooter]

Mt Gun, I did not mean that the 45 Colt had no rim but that the rim if you want to call it that was not of a size that could be used for a rifle with a extractor. I own both the 44-40 and 45 colt in USFA and CAS shoot with both. AS Nick pointed out, while the present day 45 Colt case is made with a larger rim that is undercut for use in levers. My statement concerning the 45 Colt out doing the 44-40 is with power of loads not extraction. I shoot three matches a month and I have yet to see all the problems that you say are there. My question to you is have you ever shot a cowboy match with the 45 Colt or are you passing on things that you have heard. In two years of shooting the 92's in 45 Colt I have never had one failure. In the posse's that I have been on I have only seen one rifle taken off line for a jam and it was a Uberti 66 in 38 spl. The rim of the 44-40 is made for a rifle as it was designed to be fired in the 73. I also own one of them. I fired a match in Natchez,Miss. and saw one 92 that was having problems. I went to help the pard out and saw right away his problem. His rounds had everything from high primers to bullets seated out pass the crimp groove. Not a 92 problem but I heard a couple of pards putting down on the rifle before they knew what was wrong. I will continue to believe that the pard has a mechanical problem with his rifle. If the problem was with the case of the 45 Colt case you would hear the screams across the USA. Go to the Starline case site and see when they will more to sell. People don't buy all you can make if it doesn't work.

[StarMetal]

"The original 45 Colt case was of a balloon head design and had no rim for the extractor. . ."

Balloon head design has nothing to do with the rim, but maybe you didn't
mean that it did. But -
NO rim??????? It had a very small rim, NOT intended for extraction but to
keep the case in place - headspacing the cartridge. I have seen photos of early
.45 LC cases and the rim was amazingly small, but there was a definite
rim there. I was really surprised how small it was until I realised
that they were not intended to be used for extraction, with the SAA interior
push extractor. Modern cases have a much more substantial rim than the
very early cases, but still a lot smaller than is conventional. From the
case dimensions shown you have a 0.016" rim vs a 0.027" rim, quite a lot
more to grab.

I do not know about the .44-40 vs .45 LC rim diameters comparison. Sounds like a
good point. I was told that the rim could not be enlarged more on the .45 LC due to
interference in the SAA. Sounds like that may not be true. I am away from home for
the holidays, but will look at my USFA SAA clone in .45 LC when I get home. Are the
two cylinders drilled on the same circle diameter? Maybe the .44-40 circle diam is
a tad larger, which might be OK due to smaller case diameter - you could run them
a bit farther out and keep the same minimum cyl wall dimension. Anybody with both calibers
of SAAs or clones could measure across and see if the circle that the holes are
drilled on is the same diameter.

Maybe the limit is the outside edge of the rim extending beyond the cylinder diameter.
If the circle diameter for the .44-40 was SMALLER because the drilled holes are smaller,
then maybe the rim would not hang out and drag on the top and bottom of the
frame window. So, maybe the 'can't make the rim larger due to the limits of the SAA'
is correct, but it is not due to rim to rim interference, but rim to frame interference. I
may have misinterpreted a correct statement.

I'm sure that the very small rim has to make it more difficult for the extractor to work
in .45 LCs. I was discussing this issue with a friend that shoots Cowboy Action a few
weeks back and he reported that his and several friend's replica leverguns had had repeated
issues with extractor problems with .45LC, but he had not seen this with .44-40 guns.
Might be the straight case vs bottle necked, too.

I do not have any leverguns in .45 LC, so I can't compare the actual extractors and see if
the manufacturers have had to change the part shape, or whether perhaps the straight
case and small rim are the culprit. Also - maybe this isn't actually a real problem and
the reports of multiple probs that I have heard of are just coincidences. All my pistol caliber
leverguns are .44 mag. Nice big rim and never any extraction issues.

Bill

Bill,

Here are the case drawings for the 44-40 and the 45 Colt:
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd4440winchester.jpg
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd45colt.jpg

Joe

[RayinNH]

Here's some numbers for you gents to toss around. I measured four different brands of casings for the .45 Colt.

Rem-Unc ballon-head case :Head .510 dia., no extractor groove.
Starline: .510 dia., .435 dia. extractor groove
W-W: .510 dia., .453 dia. groove
R-P: .505 dia., .433 dia. groove

Ray

[Throckmorton]

My old rossi has never failed to extract,and I have some really old brass I shoot in it,been reloaded at least a dozen times.I doubt that the brass is the problem.
I;m looking at my rossi now,and the extractor has a VERY stiff spring,hardly movable by hand.If yours is easily moved,it may be the spring has lost it's 'spring'. does that happen?

[jack19512]

My Puma .45 Colt has developed an increasing tendency to not extract after firing. At first I blamed the R-P brass that had been reloaded several times. Now the extractor seems to slip off the rim of every third case, even new ones. I have cleaned the bolt face and under the extractor carefully. Is this a design fault, weak extractor spring (is there one?) or the extractor itself? Is this a common problem with the .45 Colt and its tiny rim?







I admit I don't know what the differences are between the 454 brass and the 45 LC brass but my Puma 454 will throw fully loaded rounds quite a distance. Forget about the on going brass debate and concentrate on the extractor.

[curator]

I did finally get some time to take the thing apart. (reminder: read the directions first!) I did find a fair amount of crud under the extractor. I cleaned it down to bare metal, gave the underside a couple of strokes with a fine file so it would have a bit more "bite", and finished with a slight bend to increase spring tension. It works like a champ now. I fired about 50 assorted rounds from various manufacturers, and absolutely no problem. Thanks to all who made good suggestions. I think I will send off for stevesgunz video on the Puma. Perhaps he knows an easier way to clean under the extractor---