part # 1 paper patching the ML

[idahoron]

Since first writing this I have updated it a little. I first posted this quite a while ago but from time to time I am asked to give some info so I will post it again.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Part 1

Here is some very poor quality pictures and a description of how to wrap a bullet; sorry I am not a pro at writing.
Before I got to this point, I poured probably 200 bullets to get 75 perfect ones. I grade them for looks and weight. Any bullets with visible flaws are melted again and every good bullet that I keep is +or - .5 grains of the target weight sometimes I get even pickier and go for +- .3 This gives me a constant product, AKA bullet, compare that to TC maxiballs or maxihunters. The lead I use is from a company called Rotometal. I get the pure lead, and it measures right at 5 to 6 BHN on my hardness tester. I used to use a bottom pour lee production pot for pouring lead. I quit using the bottom pour because the bullets didn’t come out like I wanted. I went to ladle pouring the bullets and the bullets come out a LOT better and the bullets are filled out better and the weight is more consistent.
Some guys wrap their bullets with wet paper. Most of them have undersized bullets, and are getting a bullet that fits perfectly after wrapping and are not sizing after they wrap the paper on the bullet. I would like to get a mould that would throw a bullet .446 and about 380 to 400 grains. RCBS has a mould like that but I have WAY too many moulds right now. I need to sell a couple I don’t use first.
Back to wrapping the bullets.
A lot of guys use a bullet wrapping board. I just use my fingers. In this first picture you can see the size and the shape of the paper, the paper adds about .006 to .008” to the diameter of the bullet before sizing depending on the paper.

( Update to this)
Photo bucket has messed up all my pictures. So none of these threads of mine work. I am going to post this video to go along with this thread.

https://youtu.be/RmARVEFJbr0







http://i.imgur.com/Qek3ddO.jpg

In these picture you can see the way I am starting the bullet into the wrap.

http://i.imgur.com/Z7GqLkY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cOgQPtr.jpg

As I roll the bullet on I keep the paper tight as I can. When the paper rolls all the way on the two ends should meet and not overlap.

http://i.imgur.com/8FTUYv8.jpg

When I get the ends to meet I start to twist the tail.

http://i.imgur.com/SawlK4S.jpg

With a hollow base bullet you can then push the tail into the base of the bullet. This picture is quite blurry sorry.

http://i.imgur.com/xbaEL0F.jpg

When I get to this point I run them through the sizer die and this is what the finished bullet looks like.

http://i.imgur.com/H1Jkg7v.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2UMJRHF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QZssuRa.jpg

The Paper is a 9# 25% cotton onion skin paper. I get this paper from the web.
http://www.thepapermillstore.com/product.php?productid=9304

Part #2
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=71136&highlight=paper+patching

[Maven]

idahoron, Parts 1 & 2 are an excellent paper patching tutorial. Perhaps they should a be made a "sticky"?

[Willbird]

I think you need to add a decimal place, you said "patching adds .08" to the dia"

Bill

[idahoron]

Yes you are correct I forgot a zero. The thickness that the two wraps make depends on the paper type. I have a couple of types that range from .004 to .008 with two wraps. Ron

[Underclocked]

Ron, does the paper leave any residue in the bore after shooting? Any special cleaning requirements?

[docone31]

I suspect, not only does it not leave residue, it also polishes the bore.
With the Minie', the powder would expand the base. This would make the paper bear even tighter to the bore.
I have used lapping compound on my R.E.A.L.s and it really helped. I bet a very light smear of lapping compound on the patched Minie's would do the same thing.

[idahoron]

The paper does polish the barrel. My stainless barrels look like mirrors on the inside. I use a over powder wad to help protect the bottom on of the bullet and patch. No special cleaning no lead fouling. Ron

[idahoron]

I am going to bump this back up. Ron

[45nut]

are these threads better off in the paper patching forum? if so, I can move them over and make'm stickies.

[docone31]

Make it a sticky.
It has value indeed.

[rhbrink]

I have been watching this closely and hope it becomes a sticky but please keep it in the muzzleloading section. I think it would be better for the muzzleloader section than WELL HECK put in both!

[Willbird]

The paper you provided the link to,



The Paper is a 9# 25% cotton onion skin paper. I get this paper from the web.
http://www.thepapermillstore.com/pro...productid=9304


What thickness is it for two wraps ?

Bill

[Willbird]

Hello ???

Bill

[idahoron]

Sorry I didn't see this. The paper measures .002 for one .004 for two. Sory again for the late reply. Ron

[rhbrink]

Just entered the realm of fast twist muzzleloaders. Put a Green Mountain barrel on a underhammer lock got'r up and running yesterday. Using some of my cast boolits that were cast for BPCR I have been able to lube and size down to .451 and they shoot ok the best was around 2" at 100 yards which for me with iron sights isn't bad,I think that I can do better but would like to use some paperpatch. I did make some up with both wet and dry like you show but they always come out too large in diameter looks like they will come out 1.5 to 2 thousands larger than the size die which is too big to go down the barrel I was just courious as to what diameter you size to be able to slide them down the barrel with no patch damage.
Looks like a custom die in the near future and have you ever tried to size a .459 boolit down to .446 then wrap?

[405]

Sizing from .459 to .446? It's been a long time since I tried that much down sizing and if memory serves, that's a cr*p shoot these days, it didn't work very well for me. I used a push thru sizer for near pure lead bullet and it left very problematic fins around the bottom edge of the base. I was attempting to do the same thing for paper patching- just didn't work well. Dunno, may cause similar problems in a regular lubri-sizer, but in reverse?

As far as the original thread category- yes paper patching can work well for muzzleloaders. Have a rifled musket with largish bore diameter. Can either paper patch the Lee Imp Minie up to about .484 or shoot the RCBS N-S Minie .482 without patch. Both do well. The RCBS .482 w/o patch actually outshoots the PP Lee Minie by a small margin and is sooooooo much easier to deal with.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I would HIGHLY recommend reading (if you have not) Ned Roberts great little book on the Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle.
It was very enlightning about paper patching, linen patching and using plain old bare lead boolits.
But to put it all in a nut shell... Paper patching will increase the wear factor on a barrel 10x as stated by Ned Roberts on page 48 of my copy.
I understand your goals but just so you know long term paper patching does have its drawbacks.
Mike in Peru

[Nobade]

I have been getting good results in my 50 cal. barrels with the Lee 440gr. bullet made for the 50 S&W by running it through a custom .499 push through die, patching with 9# onionskin, lube with paste wax and run through the die again. I get a finished bullet of .500-.5005 which fits my .501 barrel just fine. Shoots lights out, and no leading ever.

I just bought a 45 cal. blank to rebarrel my 700ML, and to make bullets for that (until I get the proper mold from BACO) I tried running a regular 45-70 bullet into a Lee .452 die, then a .448 one I made. It works, using RCBS case lube or dishwashing soap for lube. Then patch it with the same 9# paper, lube with wax, and size again. Works fine, fits good. BTW, the Lee 405 HB still has a fair amount of grease grooves on it after being sized down to bore size, so could be shot naked and lubed if you like.

As for bore wear from paper, I have been shooting paper patch bullets exclusively in my 375 Taylor rifle now for around 3 years. Probably has 3000 of them down the barrel. Looking at it with a bore scope, it is shiny and smooth, but does not show any wear or firecracking at all. If I had fired that many jacketed bullets through it, I would be looking at getting a new barrel already from throat wear. I am not worried about modern steel barrels and good quality paper. Use cotton paper without whiteners and other additives in it, and I doubt you'd live long enough to wear out a chrome moly barrel from paper patch shooting.

[rhbrink]

Thanks Nobade that's what I was looking for, the boolits that I have sized down were custom molds made for BPCR and after sizing down to .451 they still hold plenty of lube. And it does leave a bit of fins around the base but I can slick that pretty easy. One thing about the greased naked boolits is they are like handling a small well greased pig, slick! Too slick kindof worried about if they were to be used in a hunting situation they might slide up the barrel if not handled properly. These things will slide down a clean barrel on their own weight which is exactly as Ned Roberts describled them in his book. The paper patch should slide down the barrel with the weight of the ramrod, I think need to get that book out and read it again.
I'll order a custom sizer and look at that Lee 405 if I could get it to give me hunting accuracy out maybe 200 it would make me a very happy camper. I'm thinking .446 as I could open it up some if needed. Also think I'll try some of the 9# onion skin from the papermill as I really don't have a great selection of suitable paper for patching that I have located locally anyway.
Thanks to everybody for helping.

[Nobade]

I recently picked up a NEI paper patch mold for 50 cal on Ebay. It casts out at .496 and 500 grains, I patched it with the 9# onionskin, sized with a .499 die and shot some today in my Ruger 77ML. This boolit works great! I was trying some of the new Diamondback powder, and at 100 grains it was piling them on top of each other at 200 yards. My loading technique is to fire a shot, charge with powder, seat a card wad on the powder, wipe with a patch wet with windex to the card wad, then load a boolit and fire. Probably not what you'd want for hunting, but it sure shoots well on the range. I am sure a believer in paper patching for muzzleloaders by now.

[idahoron]

Do you have a picture of those bullets? ROn

[Nobade]

Hi Ron,
No pictures as of yet. I'll see if I can figure out how to get some up here as time allows. I guess it's time to learn how to do that. For now, you can go to the NEI web site at http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html and it's on page 13 - .496 500 PP, number 359C (I think, pictures are blurry there)

As for NEI's molds, I am not too impressed with their current offerings but this one does cast very useful bullets. Lots of tool marks and chatter in the cavities, but I got it cheap and the bullets it makes are very accurate so I can be not so picky. At their current full price I might not be so happy.

[idahoron]

Interesting Do you know the hardness of your bullets? I am going to go through a series of tests with hardness and accuracy being the two main things. I am interested in seeing the accuracy between pure 5 BHN and lets say 8 BHN. I know that some of the long range shooters use 40-1 or 30-1 lead in their rifles. I am just kind of curious. I have a cabin tree hardness tester. I add about 500 gr of chilled lead shot to 5 pounds of butter soft pure lead it get it to fill out a little better and this bumps the hardness a few points on the tester. My 500 S&W bullets are between 5 BHN and 8 BHN. I know that the very pure lead in the 500 S&W bullets don’t shoot as well I think. It is going to be interesting to see how it goes. If something like the 40-1 or 30-1 shoots better I might order some premixed from Rotometal. Ron

[Nobade]

I don't have a hardness tester, so I am not sure. This particular pot is mystery metal, mostly stick-on wheelweights with a big chunk of something a fellow gave me that is really soft. In the past I have used bullets cast from the stick-ons by themselves, and they work fine too. It is much harder than pure lead, but not nearly as hard as wheelweights according to my thumbnail hardness test. I agree about pure lead, it seems to slump on the nose and not shoot all that great. From what I read from the long range ML guys, 30-1 or even 20-1 is the choice in the Gibbs and other target rifles.

[RBak]

I finally got a fast twist barrel from Green Mountain(1:28 LRH), actually I bought it from here on the forum, and I should be receiving the new .500 mould from Midway today or maybe tomorrow.

All this talk of Paper Patching for the Muzzle Loader is certainly catching.LOL

As soon as I've got every thing "up and running" I will probably have a lot of questions. I don't foresee a lot of problems right now as I already paper patch a few bullets right now for the 45-70, 35 Whelen and the 30-30, but I've never paper patched for any of my muzzleloaders.....likely because I'm a round ball shooter for the most part.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your experiences with us, Ron

Russ

[RMulhern]

Instead of using a grease groove bullet.....you'd do much better to order you a mould for a smooth-sided PP bullet! Those GG create a lot of drag and the patching of the bullet would work better with a smooth side!!

[RBak]

Instead of using a grease groove bullet.....you'd do much better to order you a mould for a smooth-sided PP bullet! Those GG create a lot of drag and the patching of the bullet would work better with a smooth side!!

I'm not so sure of that, yet.
I have both styles in the 45-70 and I've tried several hundred smooth-sided in the .35
If this holds true I'm not astute enough to see that much difference, after several years of shooting them both.

Although, like many others, I have also read that smooth-sided PP is better, my discussions with other PP shooters on the range doesn't bear this out to be a fact...perhaps in theory, but not on paper.

This is just my own observation of the smooth-side vs GG, and like many other things shooting related, ones mileage may vary greatly.

Russ

[RMulhern]

I'm not so sure of that, yet.
I have both styles in the 45-70 and I've tried several hundred smooth-sided in the .35
If this holds true I'm not astute enough to see that much difference, after several years of shooting them both.

Although, like many others, I have also read that smooth-sided PP is better, my discussions with other PP shooters on the range doesn't bear this out to be a fact...perhaps in theory, but not on paper.

This is just my own observation of the smooth-side vs GG, and like many other things shooting related, ones mileage may vary greatly.

Russ

RBak

"my discussions with other PP shooters on the range doesn't bear this out to be a fact...perhaps in theory, but not on paper."

Well...I don't have a clue as to who you've been speaking with but I can say beyond the shadow of any doubt that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS involving Creedmoor Shooting which is done at Raton, N. Mexico have been won using PP with grooves! Plain grease groove bullets have won quite often but for shooting PP bullets with grooves and 'placing' or winning I'm fairly certain has NOT BEEN DONE!

[idahoron]

A smooth sided bullet might be just the ticket for long range target shooting. For hunting under 200 yards I will put my money on the Paper Patched Lee C-501-440-RF I KNOW that they shoot sub 2" groups at 100 yards and I KNOW what they do to game. They are just an awsome combo. Ron

[RMulhern]

If you're going to use paper patch....use a PAPER PATCH BULLET; not one with lube grooves!!

[zdogk9]

If you're going to use paper patch....use a PAPER PATCH BULLET; not one with lube grooves!!
Why, I can get five shots on a playing card at 75 yds. using The lee bullet described by IdahoRon, from a standing position. Are there any style points I'm unaware of here?

[idahoron]

I get sub 2" groups off the bench and these have killed 5 animals now 3 are record book animals. I don't see the problem with it. But i have never been period correct I just shoot what works. Ron

[RMulhern]

Why, I can get five shots on a playing card at 75 yds. using The lee bullet described by IdahoRon, from a standing position. Are there any style points I'm unaware of here?

5 shots on a playing card from 75 yards from standing!!

You need to go to Camp Perry and WIN THE NATIONALS!!!

Oh...I have a bridge in Arizona.....!!

[ResearchPress]

Why, I can get five shots on a playing card at 75 yds. using The lee bullet described by IdahoRon, from a standing position. Are there any style points I'm unaware of here?

75yds you're not likely to see a great deal of difference. Come along to a major long range championship event (US hosted the World Long Range Championships in 2009 BTW) and you will find most are shooting smooth sided paper patched bullets.

David

[idahoron]

None of the bullets that are used in the 45's at 1000 yards would be legal to hunt elk here in Idaho every "game" is different. I am sure that a smooth sided bullet might be the best for long distance target shooting. For big game hunting under 300 yards I will trust the Lee C-501-440-RF. Ron

[RMulhern]

None of the bullets that are used in the 45's at 1000 yards would be legal to hunt elk here in Idaho every "game" is different. I am sure that a smooth sided bullet might be the best for long distance target shooting. For big game hunting under 300 yards I will trust the Lee C-501-440-RF. Ron

idahoron

"None of the bullets that are used in the 45's at 1000 yards would be legal to hunt elk here in Idaho"

Hmmmm.....I NEED TO SEE that in writing from an Idaho Game brochure!!:brokenima

[waksupi]

idahoron

"None of the bullets that are used in the 45's at 1000 yards would be legal to hunt elk here in Idaho"

Hmmmm.....I NEED TO SEE that in writing from an Idaho Game brochure!!:brokenima

I think the word "suitable" needs to be changed from legal.

[RMulhern]

I guess we'll have to over-look all the elk, deer, and recent buffalo that have been eaten by hunters shooting BPCR and dumb enough to be using Postell & Creedmoor bullets...which just happen to be very accurate for the long range game aka 1000 yd shooting!!

[Nobade]

I don't know about Idaho, but 45 caliber muzzleloaders aren't legal here in NM for elk hunting. Has to be 50 cal. or bigger. I know a 45 would kill one DRT, but the game laws are what they are.

As for smooth vs grooved, for hunting who cares? They both shoot better than most people can see and the Lee mould is under $20. Personally I have both, the Lee and the NEI I mentioned above. They both work, the smooth sided NEI is a little more accurate but both would kill game just fine. For long range target work smooth sided is the only way to go, but that is a whole 'nuther game than what Idahoron started out this thread with.

[idahoron]

Idaho is the same way.
RMulhern, You have to use a 50 cal muzzleloader or larger for elk. Look for your self on page 67
Like Nobade has said this is getting WAY off topic. If you want a thread about smooth vs groves you can start another thread.
Ron

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/rules/bg/full_booklet.pdf

[RMulhern]

Idahoron

This was NEVER about caliber; rather about LEAD cast bullets being sufficent for killing game!

[idahoron]

The original thread was about paper patching muzzleloaders now your talking about BPCR's. I gave facts that supports that cast lead bullets do take game. If you would like to discuss smooth sides and groves, or appropriate calibers for game or BPCR's you need to start another thread. Ron

[nanuk]

.....Those GG create a lot of drag ....

as long as they remain supersonic, I don't think the GG would create MORE drag.

I have read studies that show disrupting a laminar flow (if that is the correct term) actually can reduce the drag, albeit slightly

[RMulhern]

Idaho is the same way.
RMulhern, You have to use a 50 cal muzzleloader or larger for elk. Look for your self on page 67
Like Nobade has said this is getting WAY off topic. If you want a thread about smooth vs groves you can start another thread.
Ron

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/rules/bg/full_booklet.pdf

I don't think so! I believe it fit quite well...right in this post! Apparently a couple of other posters seemed to think so as well.

[RBak]

I don't think so! I believe it fit quite well...right in this post! Apparently a couple of other posters seemed to think so as well.

At the same time, just as many are trying to make do with what they have in a GG and are not interested in shots over two zip codes, or who won the latest Championship.

I think Ron is right, this seems to have become a thread about smooth versus GG, and that is not how it started, or even what it's about.

Russ

[10 ga]

RMulhern and other jarheads,
It's a STICKY! Read the title and stick to the subject matter! It's called a sticky cause you need to stick to the subject, which is "paper patching the ML" and that is refering to boolit. 10 ga

[RMulhern]

10ga.

It's a STICKY.....because it has to stay here and be read over and over cuz some of these jarheads.....have to read multiple times for it to SINK IN!!:kidding:[smilie=1:

[bigted]

well im just as impressed with the fact that one can and obviously do hunt with a patched gg boolit and that it seems more accurate in hunting ranges then a regular patched ball or a gg boolit in a muzzleloader. personally i dont know a hunter woth a damn that would ever shoot at a game animal that is farther away then 200 yards anyway. this is still at muzzleloader velocitys and needs to be stated that the strange behaviour of some that want to lob boolits from 4 to 8 hundred yards to hunt game thusly are not sportsmen to my thinking as the loss versus find of the game shot at these ranges are well documented.

the begining of this thread/stickie was "PAPER PATCHING THE MUZZLELOADER". i have a hunch that the patching will do both jobs.....both paper shooting as well as game shooting/hunting. the difference is the humane arena. paper targets will not [hopefully] bleed...nor will they run away and hide to die later from a wound that didnt kill them fast and prudently....however the paper is also a good "judge" as to what is the very most accurate and at a cost of simple experimenting whitch is the fun stuff for a bunch a guys.

the hot tempers of which boolit is most accurate should be tempered by all and embraced by all with no stuborn "my way or the hiway" attitudes. this kinda atittude kept us in the dark for so many years and left only a few to keep experimenting to "improve" our sport whether it is my way or yours. please cool the jets as there are still us who read to learn and not to jump on a side.

lets leave the politics to the idiots in washington and various gouvernment places and help our sport to continue to grow........"TOGETHER"

[nanuk]

back on topic

is it necessary to have a grease cookie if on PP in the ML?

I quickly swab after each shot, I use the technique refered to in the Accurate Reloading site.... lick a patch run it down wet side out, flip it and run it down dry side out, load, shoot. (use short strokes increasing depth each time)

I easily get pie plate at 100yds, most often much better, with Hornady plains, or Rem FbFp 365gr.
these come greased.

[idahoron]

Some barrels want a little lube some don't. My stainless rifles don't like or need lube. The blued barrels like lube on the over powder wad. One rifle that I built likes a dab of lube between the bullet and over powder wad. The lube I am using is Hornady Great plains lube. If that lube stays on the paper too long it will compromise the strength of the paper. If I am target shooting I can add lube and not worry. I don't like to add lube on the paper if I am hunting because I don't know how long that bullet will be loaded. I try to work up the most accurate load without that I can. So far I have built and shot 10 rifles with this load. All I can say is each is and individual. Ron

[jeepman133]

I was wondering, why you shoot the 500 S&W 440 gr paper patched and not naked ? is the bullet not designed for it. poor accuracy.. Thank you.

[danyboy]

Idahoron,
The papermillstore link you refer to in this topic refers to 9 lb 100% cotton paper instead of 25 % cotton like you said you were using. So, what are you using exactely: 25% or 100% onionskin paper ?

[idahoron]

Jeepman, The 500 S&W bullet is too small for my barrels. That bullet would fall back out if I tipped it muzzle down.

I have been using "airmail" paper. I got it from a second hand store. It is 25% cotton. The Papermill paper works just as well as the airmail paper. Cotton paper is very hard to find.
Ron

[corey012778]

all I am going to say is thanks idahoron

he is helping on another site with paper patching, I will post my results later. still having some issue but not wrapping the bullet now.

[Buckshot]

..............I've successfully shot MANY GG boolits paper patched in my 45 cal fast twist muzzle loaders (Whitworth, and a Rigby long range match rifle) but not at long range.

http://www.fototime.com/46E3692ACF17580/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

In the LEFT photo, the 2 boolits 2nd and third from the left are patched GG slugs. Probably one of the best for a 45 cal cartridge rifle would be the Lyman 475gr Whitworth design. Patched is (left photo) 2nd from left and unpatched far right. Unpatched it's a bit small for a .458" groove, but is easily sized down to .452" for patching. With pure lead it drops from the cavities at .454" from my blocks.

In the RIGHT photo are sixty 577-450 Martini's loaded using the Lee 457-405-F as cast and then patched with 20lb typing paper to give the correct .472" OD for my MkIV Martini Henry. In our clubs' short range silhuette match, over 38.0grs of IMR3031 they'll handily fetch the 200 meter ram. Off the bench using the Lyman 457121-PH cast of pure lead, sized to .452" in a push through die, weighed and paper patched to .459" and fired from a 45-70 Sharps (or any other 45 cal rifle) with it's barrel sights and smokless powder I can get 4" five shot groups at 200 meters. I'm in my late 50's and have worn glasses since the 5th grade :-)

http://www.fototime.com/4C9F502AC298773/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

However, for successful long range work you DO want a smooth slug for paper patching. LEFT photo, 560grs swaged cup based .443" for patching to .450". RIGHT photo, the same swaged slug only HP'd and weighing 530grs. These are fired in the Whitworth and Rigby.

.................Buckshot

[Chill Wills]

Do you have a group of Long Range Muzzle Loader to shoot with ... meet and shoot a match of just shoot? West of the Mississippi I do not think there is a match to be had.
I shoot a P. Gibbs. .... by myself mostly. I have to go to Oak Ridge TN to get a match with like minded riflemen.
I shoot both GG and PP bullets. The GG is cast to the correct size of .448 and is shot as cast. the PP bullets are cast at .443-444 and are patch to .448+ 89 gr FF Swiss.

[Underclocked]

I think the great thing about Ron's method is he is showing proof of a way to get an inexpensive mold dropping bullets that, with only slight effort, shoot quite accurately from barrels in which the bullet would otherwise be undersized. Given the scarcity of such molds for .50 caliber muzzleloading rifles (at least readily available molds), that alone is a great contribution.

Honestly, I don't understand why Lee doesn't add a somewhat oversized rifle bullet for .50 caliber muzzleloaders to their product lineup (and I mean a straight-walled rifle bullet at about .505 diameter, not a mini or maxi). I believe it would be a nice seller.

I'm lucky enough to have an inexpensive Lee mold of my own design that was bought in a group buy elsewhere and I size it down a bit for use in my rifles. (my avatar pic) I also have several friends that have more expensive custom molds and are willing to share their produced bullets. And there is always Dan the man at Bullshop. :) By they way, I take issue with the notion that pure lead won't behave well as I've shot too many sub-moa groups to buy that one.

[Dryball]

This is great stuff and peaked my interest for use in my Savage 10ML2. I don't understand, though, how the paper does not get torn off loading into a ML and if it's sized to easily go down the barrel how would the paper provide an adequate seal? What would you want the PP'd boolit to be sized to? And, do you use BP, exclusively, to bump up the boolit? Thanks, in advance, for the help all.

[idahoron]

I have not used the wood only paper but others have. The 25% cotton paper is tough. I use an over powder wad to help seal the gas. The sizing depends on your rifle. One of my rifles likes the boolits to slide down with the weight of the range rod. My 50 likes them a little tighter. In my 50 I am sizing with paper on to .501. In my 45 I am pouring the bullets to .446 and wrapping. then I size to .446. Ron

[bigted]

well Ron I promised that id post pic's of the baco boolit I used to test my inline. looks like I get to try it in a TC renegade as well. this is a very nice load and id think it will rival the 50-70 which nobody argues is a HUNTING ROUND!

load is 70 grains GOEX cartridge powder... wax paper over powder ... .120 inch lube cookie ... .060 inch vegi wad ... patched .492 inch boolit with 9 lbs onion skin paper ... fired with a cci shotgun 209 primer ... in a TC encore 209x50 magnum rifle.

I wanna thankyou again for inspiring me in this line of thought in patching a muzzleloader. I woulda never thought of it on my own.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/10_zps265c5460.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/10_zps265c5460.jpg.html)

boolit is a 450 grain hollow base swaged bullet from BACO at .492 inch before patching.

boolits in background that have tails are for my 43 Spanish...Remington's "other" 44-77.

[Nobade]

In my 45 cal. Gonic inline I shoot nothing but paper patched boolits. Any more, it is the 400gr. .442" slick from Accurate molds. I have finally (I think) settled on a wad stack I like. Dump powder, seat a .030" LDPE wad and compress it as hard as I can with the range rod. Then a 1/8" felt wad, lubed with Gatofeo #1 (mutton tallow, beeswax, and Gulf wax) and then a thin card wad. All wads are seated slowly to allow them to scrape the bore. Then the boolit is seated on top, it slides down with the weight of the ramrod and is given a gentle push to seat. Loaded this way, I can easily fire 15 shots before it starts to get sticky to load. Today it was holding just barely over MOA at 100 and 200 yards, using 85gr. of my ho'made powder or 65gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F. It has taken me a while to be able to consistently be able to make it do this, but I think I am finally there - at least the last four outings with it produced similar results. I messed around with so many different wads over the years and so far this is the best I have tried.

-Nobade

[Fly]

In my 45 cal. Gonic inline I shoot nothing but paper patched boolits. Any more, it is the 400gr. .442" slick from Accurate molds. I have finally (I think) settled on a wad stack I like. Dump powder, seat a .030" LDPE wad and compress it as hard as I can with the range rod. Then a 1/8" felt wad, lubed with Gatofeo #1 (mutton tallow, beeswax, and Gulf wax) and then a thin card wad. All wads are seated slowly to allow them to scrape the bore. Then the boolit is seated on top, it slides down with the weight of the ramrod and is given a gentle push to seat. Loaded this way, I can easily fire 15 shots before it starts to get sticky to load. Today it was holding just barely over MOA at 100 and 200 yards, using 85gr. of my ho'made powder or 65gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F. It has taken me a while to be able to consistently be able to make it do this, but I think I am finally there - at least the last four outings with it produced similar results. I messed around with so many different wads over the years and so far this is the best I have tried.

-Nobade

Dude I did not know you were making your own BP.That,s really cool.

Fly

[Nobade]

Yep, about a year now. It was your writing about it that finally pushed me over the edge to start accumulating the tools to start doing that. Works great now! I am even getting other guys around here into it so several of us are all learning.

-Nobade

[yeahbub]

If anyone's interested, 100% rag drafting vellum is available in big sheets or by the roll from various places. Hobby Lobby has 24" rolls. I prefer the E-size sheets or rolls intended for J-size drawings. There's a lot of patches in a few E-size sheets.

[bigted]

well itz bean a bit since this STICKY got an addition. so here is the addition.

was inspired to go shoot my encore the other day ... while I shot it I longed for a more traditional feeling rifle so the next day I brought two rifles ... the 50 renegade and the encore 50x209.

I had this Lyman 370 grain muzzleloader mold so as I had never even cast 1 boolit with it ... I took it out and cast around 30 boolits with it ... they are very pretty and shiney in the pure lead boolits. I pan lubed them with my bee wax/vasoline mix to take out for a run with em. I also had some of the 450 grain Baco hollow base boolits patched up and took them for the occasion too.

the 370 grain Lyman loaded very nice with little effort in either rifle ... however ... having been accustomed to the patched boolit accuracy ... the Lymans scattered all over the place ... like an idjit I chased the boolit holes with the sight adjustment for a bit. both rifles just hated the boolit so I stopped shooting it when I ran out of them ... LOL ... nobody said I was normal or terribly smart.

in addition ... when I got the renegade home and did my deep clean on it I see that I had a lead miner and the bore took some effort to get it cleaned up from the lead in there. too soft I recon.

next I loaded the patched boolits and walla the accuracy came back in the encore ... however I now was outta powder sooo ... will have to take the renegade out when I get some more boolits papered for the occasion.

just smiled at myself when I chased the hole position with sight adjustment as I really couldn't accept that the greasers would scatter so badly. spent a lot of time and burned some powder but I got em outta my system. now on and forward with the patched boolits in my muzzleloaders. what a nice way to spend the afternoon. and fairly cheap to boot.

there ... now that we are back on the radar in this STICKY ... I can rest and watch for other posts on the subject.

[idahoron]

Hey ted what Paper patched bullets are you using in the renegade? Ron

[bigted]

Ron ... the boolit is from a mold that I had Tom at Accurate molds make ... # 492325P. [EDIT... the number at accurate is 50-325P ... the mold I got from him as requested is a .492 diameter special on the 50-325P mold thus the number on my mold is 492325P which I see is not listed on his web site] ... it is a fairly short boolit and seems to be liked in the Renegade as well as the faster twist Encore. if I can get the bucket to work tonight I will post pic's of my procedure.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/7_zps29a1a6bc.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/7_zps29a1a6bc.jpg.html)

I wrap wet ... maybe wet is not the word but {SOAKING WET} however showin is better then tellin.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1_zpse536de4f.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/1_zpse536de4f.jpg.html)

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/2_zps21d0ca4b.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/2_zps21d0ca4b.jpg.html)

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/3_zps70b9fdf6.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/3_zps70b9fdf6.jpg.html)

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/4_zps3c9b9139.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/4_zps3c9b9139.jpg.html)

then I twist the tails only because I hate finding pieces of paper on my wiping stick after I have the boolit/vegi wad solid against the powder. usually I only fold over the base enough to just barely cover the base but then those are for cartridges with blackpowder.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/5_zpsf6d9c790.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/5_zpsf6d9c790.jpg.html)

then after being in a 120 degree oven for a half hour they are ready to snip the tail off.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/6_zpse2ea43b3.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/6_zpse2ea43b3.jpg.html)

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/8_zps8a8d50e7.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/8_zps8a8d50e7.jpg.html)

then all that is left is shoveling in 70 grains of GOEX 2F powder followed by a .060 card and then the paper patched boolit ... then ram it home and take the shot.

I swabbed the bore between shots just to see where I was accuracy wise and the Renegade with peep sight rear and blade front AND my old cloudy eyes shot into around 2.5 inch at 75 yards. the Encore now ... way different story ... scoped with a nice Leopold scope very clear I managed to be able to cover the first 2 boolit holes with a quarter at the same 75 yard range. ran outta the 337 grain accurate boolits then and switched over to the 450 grain Baco slicks ... but they do not do as well in either rifle.

these little short 50 cal slick boolits beginning at .492 inch and being patched with Baco's onion skin to .499 inch really do well in my rifles. now to see if they will repeat themselves ... maybe tomorrow ... I will try for some target pic's but no guarantee.

[Nobade]

Ted, thanks for the pics! That Accurate boolit looks a lot like the NEI one I use in my 50 cal. rifles. You might try tailless patching them, I have done them both ways and leaving the base flat with no tail always shoots better. That dent in the base seems to unbalance them I think. I like the tubes for storing your boolits! I have been using 45 ACP boxes but the tubes are a lot more compact and easier to get them out of.

-Nobade

[bigted]

I will try the tailless next time ... but ... when I wrapped the 450 grain hollow base from Baco ... I occasionally shucked the outside layer of paper ... too tight and with no size push thru to ensure the correct diameter is the reason I suspect. these however cast so nice and the diameter is just rite it seems ... so ... I will revisit the tailless patching with them.

been awhile since I let my hair down so to speak and played with the muzzleloaders that I forgot the lazy fun day to be had with them. the old ways are so much more comfortable to me that when I get back to basics ... I wonder what took me so long getting back to it.

I don't believe these patched boolits are any where close to traditional ... but ... accuracy wise they are the shiz niz when hitting tiny groups is a desire at the longer yards. ... RON ... I see that you posted on the "traditional" site and got accepted there with your brave attempt. I ... in the past ... have attempted some off traditional subjects and soundly got spanked for it. GOOD ON YA. :drinks:

[idahoron]

First off Ted, those are great looking bullets. I have never even shot any of my original barrels. All of mine were purchased knowing that they were rusted out. I got them just for the stocks. I am super curious about how the deeper groves handle those bullet.
It is funny, I have had to fight off the PRB boys there and believe me it was tough and still remains tough at times. But a large group of guys there have accepted my ways. One moderator there gives me grief and we but heads a lot but I don't post there as much as I used to.
Can you post a picture of those 450's that you say didn't shoot well? Have you thought about them not shooting well because of the softness of the lead? I have alloyed my bullets over the last few years just a pinch and have seen my groups do better and they work better on game. Ron

[Nobade]

If they give anybody grief, just tell them to read Ned Roberts' The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle. This is about as traditional as it gets, at least post 1840 or so. OK, maybe not with inlines.....

-Nobade

[bigted]

Ron ... yes I will get a couple photo's of the Baco 450 grain boolits. the alloy thing is worth a try as well. I have my cartridge boolit mix that seems like a 20 or 30 to 1 mix so maybe I will cast a few of those of that mix and shoot them to see if the accuracy is on par. as to the Renegade barrel ... it is borderline rough in the rifling edges. it seems like the edges are chipped somehow and has been so when I purchased the rifle used ... but it seems to want to shoot well and the peep sight is a bit better on my eyes so I will try to post a couple targets of these accurate boolits patched up and shot thru the Renegade.

the inline Encore seems to like em very well and shoots to point very well ... must confess I have a scope mounted on the Encore so this is a reason for the better accuracy with it.

I very much like the way these load. very easy down the barrel and seem to snuggle up on the powder well and I hope that they will stay put on a walk about. have to load one and do some hiking around for a few hours and see if they move ... shouldn't move as they are dry unlubed boolits and squeak a bit going down the bore. it is getting very shiny and smooth also a lot easier to clean and swab out after the shot.

[bigted]

so here is the photo's of the buff arms .492 inch 450 grain hollow base boolits I began messing with. they are slick as can be seen and I worry that they are too pointed for hunting ... what with the chance of marring or molesting the nose section on loading and thusely ruin accuracy. im all out of them so these are the last few I have so I may have to order another box for further experimenting as I think that if they will perform and withstand the loading pressure ... they should be great hunters ... if the mix is soft enough to expand proper at these velocity's. I always figured that shooting these with 70 grains BP pushing them along ... they should equal the old 50-70 round that was no slouch in the game getting arena.

I posted them beside my new 337 grain slicks that seem to be casting very well and shooting equally well in my rifles. the final patch boolit diameter of both boolits comes out at .499 with the onionskin paper.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/2_zps80b5f69d.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/2_zps80b5f69d.jpg.html)

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1_zps4b447450.jpg (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/bigted1956/media/1_zps4b447450.jpg.html)

[idahoron]

I think you might be right. The front end might be a bit too sharp for hunting. A bullet that pointed and long is going to need alloy to keep from slumping in my opinion. I do like a wide meplat for slamming game. That said I bet they would be wicked accurate in my fast twist with 8 or 9 BHN hard lead. They look great!

[Rattus58]

At the same time, just as many are trying to make do with what they have in a GG and are not interested in shots over two zip codes, or who won the latest Championship.

I think Ron is right, this seems to have become a thread about smooth versus GG, and that is not how it started, or even what it's about.

Russ
I use gas check bullets frequently in my muzzleloaders... the first was a 470 grain bullet closely resembling the Lyman 457121 called at the time.. the Mose Copper Cruiser. He also has a 50 he made for my Austin Halleck at .499 bore... and both just super shooters... I've also a copper gas check .410... here is the deal with gas checks in MY OPINION. Charge is no problem, leading is non-existant, and fouling is reduced overall. I also use card wads for all shooting, whether a patched ball or gas check bullet without the gas check or anything else... it helps me with my load consistency... powder, wad and tamp.... bullet/ball

[Silence is golden]

This is what my Lyman GPR likes it is a LEE .540-415M mold that drops a 425gr. Bullet and it is patched with standard 8.5"x11" copy paper and when powered by a 40gr. Charge of 3f it is very accurate.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p482/Silenceisgolden94/image_zpsc3d3449e.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/Silenceisgolden94/media/image_zpsc3d3449e.jpg.html)

[newton]

Ron sent me some PP because I am gonna try this system out this year, and in return I told him I would make a PDF of the patches so others could print off and have a template to go from. Well, it was not as easy as I thought to make one so I just got the measurements put on paper instead. Should allow someone a quick way of getting a patch template up and going for use with the boolits he uses. The measurements were hard to get on a piece of paper, but should be pretty close.

I don't have time to mess with the system I was doing, so I feel confident that his is right on. Even got me 3 cans of pyro P to work with. I'll be using a greyhawk mainly, and while its 1:48, I still feel like the S&W boolit will be fine in it. I do have a GM LRH barrel also, but would rather try the greyhawk for now. I know for sure it will work in the GM barrel as its the same as you use Ron, but its blued not stainless. The greyhawk is stainless. Thanks again for the help.

114246

[bigted]

nice to see this thread rise again. i just moved to Oregon so will be a bit to get everything back in workin order. nice of ya to post those patch's for copy.

[idahoron]

newton, Thanks for posting the template. I will be interested to see how the 1-48 twist handles the 460 gr bullets. Ron

[newton]

I will be too. I did the calculations and the GH formula does not favor it, but got to try it anyways. Looks like I would need to be pushing it at 2400 fps to get the formula to be right for a 1:48 twist. lol. I aint about to try that. It will be a while, but I'll give a short report back on here how it goes.

[Fly]

Just how much can you size down a bullet after PP with out tearing the paper?

Fly

[C. Latch]

How much smaller than bore size can your bullets be to start with?

I patched some .533 Lee minies this afternoon (two wraps of damp typing paper followed by a few minutes in the toaster oven to dry) and they were way too tight. I managed to get them loaded and shot, but they were simply too tight. It piqued my curiosity, though.

Can I patch up a .452 bullet to work in a .50? I realize that it wouldn't be legal in every state, but here in TN it would be legal, and I'd mainly be doing it for fun, at least until I learned the ropes well.

[Nobade]

Well, the thickest paper I have that is practical to patch with is 25# laser printer paper. It adds .015" with two wraps around (a normal parallelogram patch) so that would be my minimum diameter for the boolit. Trying to make a 45 work in a 50 likely won't work because the rifling isn't deep enough to slice the patch and the core would tip inside the bore at the shot. That's where those modern plastic sabots come in.

My usual patching paper adds .007" with two wraps, so I normally use a boolit that is .008" under bore size. They load easily and shoot exceptionally well.

-Nobade

[C. Latch]

I did some crude measuring and it seems that two wraps of printer paper added right at .02" for me. I'm going to try and find some thinner paper, but this has definitely captured my interest.

[Nobade]

I did some crude measuring and it seems that two wraps of printer paper added right at .02" for me. I'm going to try and find some thinner paper, but this has definitely captured my interest.

Make sure you wrap it wet and let it dry, to get a precise measurement.

-Nobade

[idahoron]

Just how much can you size down a bullet after PP with out tearing the paper?

Fly

That depends a lot on how soft the lead is.

[newton]

Well, I am gonna be shooting my first round tomorrow. I am going to start with the LRH because I need to have a gun ready to go next week and don't want to be frustrated with trying to get the 1:48 to work. But soon as I have the LRH set, I'll work on the Greyhawk.

Question though. I guess I need to snip the tail off the boolit, but then wondered if putting a small dab of glue on the bottom of the boolit to attach a wad to would be a bad idea? It would make it easier to keep the wad and boolit together for hunting in the field I feel. The PP seems to slip off fairly easy, but would a wad somewhat attached to the back cause an imbalance when it left the barrel? I guess I will try it if no one else has yet, but if someone has and it does not work please let me know so I don't waste time.

[newton]

Oh, one more thing. I was lazy and did not get the onion skin paper offline. So I am hoping that it will not be too big of a kink in the plan. I was wondering if the 100% rag(cotton) vellum from Hobby Lobby or other places would work good?

[zooly]

I am trying to size a pure lead 50 cal pistol bullet to .492". My small RCBS press doesn't have enough leverage. My neighbor has a Rock Chucker press, but thinks that "swaging" a bullet this much will somehow damage his press. Is that possible?

[Nobade]

If that is hard to do, the geometry of your sizing die isn't right. It shouldn't take more than a gentle push on the lever to accomplish it. Make sure the entry to the die is a gentle taper without any steps, it's bigger than the boolit to start, and has a nice high polish. Of course lube the boolits with something. I like the RCBS case lube pad and their water soluble lube, you can wash it off afterward.

-Nobade

[Nobade]

Downsizing .008" is too much. Can't you try a smaller bullet then paper patch it up to .492 " ?

Who says? I regularly take .458" bullets to .442" in one pass with no difficulty. Your sizer just needs to be made correctly and use the right lube.

-Nobade

[danyboy]

I Guess I was wrong cause I coule never size down a bullet by that much. My sizing dies must not be proper for it or I must be doing something wrong.

[RoyEllis]

Downsizing .008" is too much. Can't you try a smaller bullet then paper patch it up to .492 " ?

News to me.....I size Lee .312-155 down to .301 for smokeless PP loads, literally by the hundreds. They shoot darned good too......

[danyboy]

Sorry, I was wrong, could Never do it. Doing something wrong.

[crossxsticks]

Newton Thanks for the PP templant measurement's wondering if i click on them to enlarge are they correct size to trace ? :D

[newton]

Newton Thanks for the PP templant measurement's wondering if i click on them to enlarge are they correct size to trace ? :D

Sorry, just saw this.

Every printer puts them out different. So I would not count on it, but worth a shot. ;)

[weeble]

I've been wanting to try this for a while, and decided to make a project of it this year. My intent was to duplicate the equipment that others have used with success. Now I find that Green Mountain no longer makes fast-twist barrels, so it looks like I will have to custom order one. The question is, what bore/groove dimensions will work best? I've read that a shallower dimension works best, like .50/.508, yet the GM barrels were deeper at .512.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
W

[idahoron]

My GM's measure .508 My Knight rifles also measure the same. But those bullets patched and sized work in the TC white mt carbine, the lyman great plains hunter and the knight. They are tight going down and shoot very well in all of them. Here is a video I made on wrapping bullets.

https://youtu.be/RmARVEFJbr0

[RBak]

Thanks Ron, I enjoyed the video.

Russ

[weeble]

Ah, that's great! The (few) references I found to the GM barrels listed a groove depth of .005-.006, which would equate to .510-.512 across the grooves. If they actually measure .508, then everything makes more sense. It means that the information I've read here and on other boards is very consistent. I will proceed with .50-.508.

Thanks Ron, and also to Johnson1942 who responded privately. Great video too!

[MaxJon]

Has anyone tried the Hornady #6617 bullet in their 1/60t PRB barrel?? I would like to try this bullet or similar 240gr in my 1/60 GPR, sized to bore and patched up maybe?? Simply something different to PRB. I do love PRB too though.

[TCLouis]

bigted
I have some (a BUNCH) of Minie that I wanted to try and wondered about the tail and the HB of the boolit. Guess the picture you posted solves that.

[idahoron]

This thread hasn't been updated in a long time.
I'm still paper patching the same way after many years. Some rifles and boolets I do a little different but the Lee 500 S&W boolets are still the same.

This Bull was my 2020 bull. Had some bad luck health wise and got to go only a couple times. Not seeing much for elk, when I saw this one I went after him.
I ranged the shot, set the sight, and dropped him in his tracks.

https://i.imgur.com/EG7ElWF.jpg

The boolet was a Lee 500 S&W hardened to about 7 BHN. It weighed 458 grains. I wrapped them with 9# onion skin and sized to .501

https://i.imgur.com/H1Jkg7v.jpg

This is the Boolet I took out of the bull.

https://i.imgur.com/V71Mr4N.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9a42XIw.jpg

I held for a high shoulder/spine shot. The elk was very close to private land and had to be anchored where he was to keep him from entering private.

https://i.imgur.com/jEVvUcQ.jpg

This load has been so consistent that I have never looked for any other load. It just works.

[Nobade]

Congratulations! That looks like a nice bull and a successful hunt.

[Edward]

You use that pretty regular for killing stuff as usual ,congrats /Ed

[todd9.3x57]

nice!!!!!!!!!!!

[fiberoptik]

Whole lot of meat [emoji3052]!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[idahoron]

There are times I think what would have happened if I had not ever developed this bullet for a muzzleloader bullet. I honestly don't know where I would have landed. I'm just glad I got to here with it.

[Buckshot]

...................Excellent!

Buckshot

[pull the trigger]

BTW, the Lee 405 HB still has a fair amount of grease grooves on it after being sized down to bore size, so could be shot naked and lubed if you like. - Nobade
Should this is have a wad under it ? I know nothing about black powder, is the hole in the bottom small enough to not worry about? I just got a .45 from a member here and have nothing else to put in it yet. Thanks

Beautiful bull and great story, also thanks for all your contributions here, I really enjoy it and appreciate you all!!

[Nobade]

BTW, the Lee 405 HB still has a fair amount of grease grooves on it after being sized down to bore size, so could be shot naked and lubed if you like. - Nobade
Should this is have a wad under it ? I know nothing about black powder, is the hole in the bottom small enough to not worry about? I just got a .45 from a member here and have nothing else to put in it yet. Thanks

Beautiful bull and great story, also thanks for all your contributions here, I really enjoy it and appreciate you all!!

I'd try it both ways and see which worked better but would suspect that no wad would be best. If the wad sometimes sticks in the hole and sometimes doesn't, it won't be accurate. BTW, lube it first before sizing down so you don't collapse the grooves.

[pull the trigger]

Thanks a ton! Ever use the Lee REAL boolits for muzzleloaders? I have limited experience with them, tumble lubed in white label 45-45-10, they worked fine, very easy clean up. I really want to try paper patching. Thanks again

[Gtek]

Been following this for years and have been thinking about something for a while. What if one were to set up on mill/drill and open GC area up almost to band on one of the holes to or at a couple over to be sized up during final push. Throw center of gravity off to tail of Boolit even though made for check? I think we all know and seen what bad tails can do, does this act like a kind of boat tail as cast or would a square tail fly well? Guess I need to get me on of them there molds.

[idahoron]

I would only be guessing if I told you that I know what would happen. I thought about doing just what you are talking about. What I ended up doing is nothing. The bullet is a fantastic game bullet as it is. It is accurate, and consistent, both on game and on target as it is.
I have shot a ton of big game with muzzleloaders. This is the only bullet that I know for a fact works every time.
I have shot deer with Hornady bullets and they died, but with the Lee 500 S&W bullets they die in their tracks not at the end of a long trail.

[DanWalker]

Hi guys. Just finished reading this thread and am chomping at the bit to try PP handgun boolits in my 45 hawken. Can any of you gents who have one of them and have done this, enlighten me as to what paper and size die I will need for this endeavor? I'm thinking I'm supposed to size down to .451 and then patch up to .459. Am I ok to use regular (12bhn) alloy for these boolits, or will they be too hard to push down the bore? Thanks for your help.

[idahoron]

All of my rifles shoot best with a bullet that is slip fit. Use 9# onion skin or Strathmore tracing paper works great in my 45's. You will want a finished size of .446 to .448
The hardness you will want is between 8 and 12 bhn. You can tweak that to your needs.

[HWooldridge]

Many moons ago, I owned a Mowrey .45 ML with a fast-twist barrel (1-28) and shot a 380gr PP bullet which was originally designed for the 45-70. I recall that it was accurate but oh my Lord, the recoil was horrible with that thin, curved butt plate. I wound up selling it to a friend who carried more than shot...

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, I recently purchased an H&R inline .58 ML, along with some round balls - so I'll have to figure out a good diameter in the bigger caliber. I'm probably going with a modified Minie ball, since a long design will consume a huge amount of lead and probably kick like a bay mule.

[DanWalker]

Yeah, I'm not eager to pummel myself senseless with the brass buttplate on this hawken. Been down that road many years ago with a 50 and 54 hawken. I'm thinking of using 200-250 grain SWC's at moderate velocities, for medium game and cheap plinking.

[idahoron]

I cut the Cresent plate off mine and put a limbsaver pad on it.

[Keith]

I have been PP my cartridge guns for a while using a BACO slick flat base and the patch just turned over the edge.
All the posts I have read on here have had a tail on the patch and usually a hollow base slug.
I would like to use the same bullet and patch combination in my ML target rifle 1-16 twist.
Has anyone used a folded base and does it load OK without coming off? I thought about sitting it on a wad when loading and the wad might stop the base unfolding.
Keith

[Nobade]

I treat the muzzleloaders just like a cartridge rifle. Bullets are patched using the Hythe method, with a spot of lead showing on the base. As long as the bore is clean and the bullet/patch combo fits correctly they don't come off.

[Keith]

thanks

[idahoron]

This is the latest rifle I have to paper patch. This one was my last stainless steel 1" across the flats Green Mountain 1-30 twist.

https://i.imgur.com/z0J2J4L.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/S68ByV4.jpg

I found the donor rifle online and put a Lee Shavers mid range sight with a Hadley eye cup.

https://i.imgur.com/xB6kvBr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/W5nyCr3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HIdrmgW.jpg


I also add a Lee Shavers Ferriss front sight.

https://i.imgur.com/iZKjOSm.jpg

I decided on a Accurate mould.

https://i.imgur.com/BXhxKJ5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WRCVT89.jpg



This is a 200 yard group

https://i.imgur.com/Eg7yAJY.jpg

500 yard group

https://i.imgur.com/4qNak3E.jpg

[Nobade]

Way to go Ron! You certainly have this stuff figured out now. I'm glad you post these, I bet you have been inspiration to quite a few shooters out there. Not many know what is possible when we go back to cutting edge technology for the 1880's, that stuff worked then and it still does now. Keep it up!

[idahoron]

Thanks!!