Handcannon killed another scope base

[geargnasher]

I need some opinions from some people with a little REAL LIFE heavy-recoil experience.

I can't seem to keep an Ultradot sight screwed to my FIL's M29-3 Silhoutte. Before attempting to mount the sight, I called S&W and confirmed the application of base I had, as the 29-3 topstrap wasn't supposed to be drilled for a mount and I was supposed to use a "rear sight replacement" base.

This particular gun IS drilled in three places (#6-42) in the topstrap, but I haven't found a base to use those screws yet. S&W is so far no help on this.

I settled on B-Square's mount for the M29 and proceded to use the "pre-93" mount arrangement using only the sight mount #3 screw and ther rear sight post screw. The Ultradot flew off and hit me in the face on shot #3 due to shearing of both screws.

Ok, figured the base settled after shot 1 or 2, got loose, and shot 3 sheared the screws. My bad.

Purchased another base locally, seated the base better, checked topstrap contact with prussian blue, fired one shot, removed sight to retorque screws, fired a cylinderfull, removed again to check mount screw torque, fired 37 more shots before the poi went all to hell. The base was loose again, this time it appears that the front screw head beat it's way down into it's countersunk hole in the weaver base. The bottom of the #3 screw head is flat, or perpendicular to it's axis, while the bottom of the countersink is ROUND!!!!???. How stupid is that. I discovered that the supplied front mount screw was also bottoming on the top of the barrel (right above the forcing cone) because it was too long. Thought I was never going to get it out of the topstrap after mushrooming the threads. Again, the rear post screw was stripped from the base lifting in the front.

So I give up. I have the rear sight post, 3 #6/42 tapped holes, and a #3 tapped hole in the topstrap. The pre-'93 B-Square mount has proven, as it appeared to me with my engineering background, to be woefully inadequate to handle .44 magnum stresses. Any recommendations on a mount that will use more/all of these available mount screws and maybe actually keep optics and gun in one piece?

This gun really likes 20 grains of 2400 under a 229 Gr Ideal 429421HP, plenty hot but NOT excessive for the gun in any way, and shouldn't be killing scope bases designed for it.

Gear

[redneckdan]

Do you want the base on for the long haul? If so, epoxy the bugger on there. Otherwise I'd say go to 8-40 screws, use acra-glass to bed the bottom of the screw holes for best contact. Shoot a couple rounds, torque it; shoot a couple more, torque it and then use a wicking grade loctite on the screws.

[Frozone]

Seen This?
http://www.mountsplus.com/miva/merchant.mvc?page=MSP/PROD/SMITH_WESSON_ACCESSORIES/WCS-SWH-PMB

[geargnasher]

AHAA! I knew I should have asked you guys first!

Found my way to the Weigand site and then to the Youtube video Mr. Weigand put up showing the details of installing his base on the S&Ws and I think the holes mine has will match.

That Weigand mount is elegant and streamlined, and ONE PIECE too, unlike the roll-pinned recoil lug on the B-square. And it actually uses the three large screw holes like it ought to.

Thanks.

Gear

[crabo]

Gear, I use the Weigand on my Smiths. I have never had a problem with them.

[kingstrider]

Leupold also makes a 1-piece base that utilizes all three factory drilled & tapped holes. I have one mounted on a 629 Classic and have never had a problem with the setup. It only allows 2 scope rings but 3 rings is overkill on a little .44 anyway ;-)

[44man]

Weigand is the best.
The Leopold and Burris pistol bases put rings too close together and some red dots will not fit. I have one on my SBH and I had to be careful what I bought.
I could not keep the base screws tight on my BFR .475 so I bedded it on with Accra Glass and I put it on the screws too. Loc-Tite was a waste of time.

[GLynn41]

CCi Outers-- or Weaver anyway I have their bases on 2 Redhawks - one is a normal .41 with 18 gr of AA#9 and 208 gr Keith HP and then the other is a 41/44 mag=230 wfngc with 27.5 gr of H110 or the Keith HP with 27 gr of H110 -- nothing has ever moved period in hundreds of rounds in this wildcat--with bullets up to 255 and 305-- mine have worked exceedingly well-- you might consider one of those

[MtGun44]

My Wiegand shot loose in about 50 rounds, with loc-tighted screws. The problem was
the aluminum getting hammered by the rear face of the steel frame at the rear sight
location. I milled out the aluminum about .090" and made a chrome moly steel insert,
epoxied it in place on the scope base with a small c-clamp holding it. Reinstalled with
red loctight on the screws, no problems since. Need heat to remove red loctight, other
than that it is fine.

Basically, I made a steel recoil shoulder on the sight base so the recoil is transmitted
steel against steel. Mine is a 6.5" Powerport barrel and load is 21.0 2400 under a 429421
250 gr boolit. Nothing excessive.

Bill

[anachronism]

If it's security you want, Send the revolver out to SSK Industries, and have them fix you up with a T'SOB. This is THE mount for heavy kicking guns. I believe SSK even licensed Freedom Arms to install them on their guns.

[geargnasher]

Gear, I use the Weigand on my Smiths. I have never had a problem with them.

Thanks, Craig, I seem to remember that picture from somewhere!

I contacted Midwayusa (where I purchased the first B-square), told the nice lady who answered the phone what happened, and she checked with (someone) and then cheerfully offered to exchange it for a Weigand base plus refund me the three bucks difference. I spent a lot of money with them this year so I guess that helped.

Thanks again everyone for your input, Mtgun I have an idea to machine a "plug" to fit the rear sight base post slot and fill the gap in the bearing surface at the rear of the frame, I had the same thoughts about it eating the aluminum recoil lug.
We'll see how this one goes....

Gear

[geargnasher]

Weigand is the best.
The Leopold and Burris pistol bases put rings too close together and some red dots will not fit. I have one on my SBH and I had to be careful what I bought.
I could not keep the base screws tight on my BFR .475 so I bedded it on with Accra Glass and I put it on the screws too. Loc-Tite was a waste of time.

Jim,

You were right about the Ultradots, my FIL and I shopped several scopes and holo sights, but after checking out the 30mm, 4moa Ultradot I understood why you use them. This one even took bouncing off my hard forehead in stride after being jettisoned from the first base! Remounted it on the new one and shot a 3-1/2"" group at 100 yards with my floater-filled and blurry eyes. I noticed ZERO eye fatigue after over 30 carfully aimed bench shots, usually I have trouble completing the last 2 in a cylinder without the front sight blurring out. I'm VERY pleased with your recommendation.

Ian

[Groo]

Groo here
+1 on the T'SOB from SSK.
I have a few HANDCANNONS and have yet to loose a mount.

[MtGun44]

No real need to go to the trouble to make a plug to fill the rear sight area. Just make
a steel plate to span the sight adjust screw cutout and spread the load into the aluminum.
Use a fairly hard steel, I used 4130 chrome moly.

Just happened to think (DANGER!) - that is the pistol with the mount we are discussing
in the pic at left.

Bill

[geargnasher]

Ok, all that helped me with this, just and update. Midway came through as promised and the new Weigand mount is a real work of art. Unfortunately, as I said in my OP, this 29-3 has a very uniqe pattern to it's scope base screw holes. Thought it might be a fluke with the B-Square dual-pattern base not lining up, but the Weigand is the same: only the rear hole lines up with any of the three pre-drilled holes. But the Weigand base has nice, 90* countersinks that won't let the screw heads burrow like the others did.

I decided my best bet was to just make it work, so I redrilled the middle and front holes in the base, the front is about 1.5 diameters to the rear and the middle is about .75 diameters to the rear making a peanut-shaped hole, but that's ok by me. I milled new countersinks of identical depth to the originals and mounted the base with JB Weld filling the hollow rear corners of the base and filling the slack near the forward sight screw to reduce lateral stress on the screws. Blue Loctite, proper torque, and two boxes later zero problems!!!!

Mtgun, I'm not shunning your idea, I think it's a really good one, but I didn't have a good way to precisely mill the back of the base 90* across, so I figured the epoxy is as hard as the aluminum and I at least increased the bearing surface to use all of the frame, anyway. The way the Weigand base is made it barely contacts any of the rear frame at all. I know the back of the frame only bears on half of the area your method does, but the epoxy is twice as good as nothing, and seems to be working so far.

Again, thanks all for the input.

[44man]

I'm glad you like the Ultra Dot, I could not hunt without them anymore.
Whitworth had a stand collapse under him in FLA and his gun bounced off the stand and fell to the ground, about 15 feet. It did not even change the sight setting. We have been using them for a long time on .475's and my 45-70 without a hitch.
Now if a base is getting beat at the recoil lug, the screws are coming loose. There should be no movement to start with. Don't be afraid to epoxy base screws. They are easy to remove if you ever have to.
Just take a brass or copper rod the size of the screw heads and heat the end red hot. Hold it on the screw head a short time and the screws will come right out.
Now I only use two rings on my guns with the Ultra Dot, I like the Warne rings but one gun has the rings on it that came with the red dot and it has never moved after thousands of shots.
The amount of rings you need will depend on the weight of a scope, some are very heavy. The inertia is what wants to make a scope stay in place as the gun recoils under it.
The revolver in most cases has less recoil then a Contender so if you shoot one of those with heavy recoil, more rings might be needed.
How you shoot even changes that, if your gun is allowed to come back fast, more stress is put on a scope.
If you look at my avitar, you will see how mine are mounted on some pretty fierce guns. You just don't hold these guns loose and let them rock and roll.
If a barrel will do this to a fellas head, what does the gun do to a scope?

[44man]

That's not me, by the way, I will not shoot that gun without a grip change or a hard hat! [smilie=l:
This is the gun and how it comes back.
The .44 is a real pleasant gun to shoot and after something like this, you will think it is a .38! :holysheep

[buck1]

Old school scope mounting....
Tighten mt screws. Put screwdriver in slots and tap screwdriver with a hammer and retighten the now looser screws. I use a tad of boiled linseed oil under the mt , on the screws and in the rings(less is more). They "TAC" in nicely and set, and the dry hard oil comes off with a bit of #9 if you ever change things up.. Thats some OLD school advice from my granddad/and dad. Its been working well for us since the 40s on all sorts of iron. FWIW>>>>Buck

[44man]

Old school scope mounting....
Tighten mt screws. Put screwdriver in slots and tap screwdriver with a hammer and retighten the now looser screws. I use a tad of boiled linseed oil under the mt , on the screws and in the rings(less is more). They "TAC" in nicely and set, and the dry hard oil comes off with a bit of #9 if you ever change things up.. Thats some OLD school advice from my granddad/and dad. Its been working well for us since the 40s on all sorts of iron. FWIW>>>>Buck
Should work on most guns but I don't know about a revolver.
I have a heck of a time getting the cap off my jug of linseed oil but it takes sooooo long to dry.

[geargnasher]

:holysheep OUCH!

You guys do realize that they make shoulder-mounted firearms in those calibers, right?:kidding:

Gear