RD265Gr COL VS Powder charge?

[JesterGrin_1]

Okay here is the question that I would like to ask :)

If I seat the RD 265 Gr in the crimp groove of which would give me a COL of 1.55 in my .44 Mag Marlin 1894 it does not cycle well as it is just a bit too short. So I thought I would seat the bullet in the next 1 or 2 down grease grooves as these are the Lee Groove type of bullets to give me a COL of 1.620 to 1.625. By doing so can I increase the powder charge or must the Max powder charge remain the same even when I have more case volume available for powder use?

I use H-110 or W-296 Same stuff really. :)

Thank You for any help.:bigsmyl2:

[longbow]

Are you sure the problem is because the OAL is too short? It may be meplat size.

The Marlin is set to handle 1.610 OAL. Mine was picky, some are not. Make sure the longer OAL will feed out of the magazine or you will be disassembling the gun. I modified the cartridge stop in my Marlin to allow longer OAL.

I was having some feeding problems with SWC's and found that at least one of the reasons was that the carrier was rising a little too high putting the edge of the meplat about in line with the edge of the chamber mouth resulting in frequent jams and having to jack the lever again.

The RanchDog design has a large meplat so I suggest checking the carrier height to see if the nose of the boolit is properly lined up with the chamber mouth.

I filed the groove in my carrier deeper to line things up better.

Coincidentally, I have a RanchDog mould on the way so will find out how it feeds shortly.

Longbow

[JesterGrin_1]

Thank you for the reply Longbow but I am positive it is too short. As it will feed a longer OAL cartridge at 1.610 to 1.625 just fine. :)

[HammerMTB]

As to any change in powder charge, this is easy to determine.
If you have a chrono, just check the loads against each other. If there is no significant difference in vel, there's no difference. If there is, you have a basis for some small adjustment. As always, increase in small increments, and for me, I always measure and take notes along the way, so whatever I find I can later correlate without too much consultation of my failing memory.
My gut instinct tells me there's not enough difference to matter.
BTW, I have that RD 265 mold, too, and it works well in my SRH

[JesterGrin_1]

Sorry I do not have a Chrono. I know with the RD 265Gr in the .44 Mag case I can load to 23.0Gr of H-110 or W-296. So I guess I will just stick with that as a Max charge.

[fredj338]

You will have slightly less pressure by seating the bullet out firther. How much is a guess, but w/ a near max charge of H110, you should be fine, I would leave the powder charge alone. Without a chrono, it's tough to guess how much more powder to add to make up the diff.

[JesterGrin_1]

So even if the bullet remains the same weight then the powder charge can increase or decrease depending on the available case capasity for the cartrige?

[44man]

So even if the bullet remains the same weight then the powder charge can increase or decrease depending on the available case capasity for the cartrige?
The safe powder increase would be so small you will not notice much change. Not worth fooling with.
I still need to work with the boolit more in my Marlin, I kind of gave up on the gun. But the boolit is wonderful in my SBH with 22 gr of 296.
I shot up a pile of beer cans at 100 yards, had to stand them back up after each shot but I was averaging 1-1/4" on the cans. 3/4" at 50 yards is easy.
My Marlin can't even come close and I miss the paper a lot, cans are safe and it is a waste of lead to shoot at them.
Some day I will clamp it in my vise and use a pipe wrench to wind up the rifling! :bigsmyl2:

[longbow]

JesterGrin_1:

Sorry, I had a longer reply but thought it was getting off topic so made it much shorter which included getting rid of the powder charge comment. Oops!

Depending on how much further you seat the boolit out you should be able to increase the powder charge accordingly. The amount may not be significant but you work up just like working up any load ~ .5 gr. at a time and look for pressure signs like flattened primers and sticky extraction. If you are only seating out another 0.025" or so it likely won't make much difference.

As a point, Hornady used to publish "hot" loads for .44 mag rifles which exceed anything I see in loading manuals now. Also, I seem to remember factory ammunition for rifles from long ago that were like +P.

The rifle should be able to take more pressure than a revolver but I have increased powder charges until I get flattened primers and it about matches max loads listed in manuals so I have not gone any further. Also, if you load for handguns as well (unless Freedom Arms or other really strong ones) it would not pay to have hot loads for a rifle unless they were well identified or used a different boolit or...? You would not want the hot load in the wrong gun.

A few comments on accuracy though (especially for 44man). Before you take a pipe wrench to yours to increase rfiling twist (not a bad idea by the way!), you might want to slug the bore.

I'll start by saying I can't match the accuracy you get from your handguns with my rifle... but it shoots a lot better now than when I got it.

I was having leading problems and mediocre accuracy. Some boolits shot not bad but most leaded. I tried paper patching which seemed to improve accuracy and eliminated leading but I find it tedious so looked for other solutions. While surfing the internet for Marlin info I found the Marlin site (you'd figure I might have looked intentionally eh). One of the first posts I read mentioned tight spots in the barrel under dovetails, inaccuracy and leading. Hmmmm, sounds familiar.

I slugged my barrel and sure enough, tight spots. Possibly fire lapping would work but with microgroove rifling I was hesitant so decided to hand lap, concentrating on the tight spots. That worked well and leading is gone and accuracy has improved.

I should also point out that Marlins tend to have generous bores. My groove diameter is 0.4315" so large boolits are also essential. My Lyman 429421 casts about 0.429"/0.430" so needless to say is a poor performer. It also doesn't feed well. SInce it doesn't feed well anyway, I haven't bothered to lap the mould out.

You might have a read here if you haven't already seen Glen Fryxell's articles:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm

Where Glen talks about oversize Marlin barrels.

And here where he has some boolit and loading info:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin1894.htm
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/marlin_1894.htm

Also, contrary to what Glen says, I have been largely unsuccessful at getting any kind of consistent long range accuracy with any boolit I have tried that weighs much over 265 grs. In fairness, I have not tried WFN or RanchDog 300 gr. so it may be as much a boolit design issue as slow twist issue.

Some people claim stability and good accuracy well past 100 yards with heavy boolits if pushed hard. RanchDog claims stability to 300 yards with his 300 gr. in 1:38" twist and I am not arguing as I have not tried his 300 gr. design.

My experience is that up to 265 gr. work just fine with my loads in my gun but heavier boolits I have tried (even "J" bullets) do not stabilize past about 75 yards ~ again, with my loads in my gun. Faster twist would be a big help here. In any case, I am quite happy with 265 gr. and have a RanchDog 265 gr. mould coming this week I hope.

Oh, and another Marlin quirk. Take it apart, take all the screws out, clean the threads and reinstall with Loctite Blue. I have read that Marlins shake loose and I have had some screws to tighten but until I started carrier mods so had to disassemble the whole gun I had not realized just how many screws were loose (that's in the gun, everyone knows I have loose screws).

Okay then I guess that is a longer post. Sorry if I rambled a bit.

Longbow

PS: Even longer! Another link to microgroove barrels ~

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

[44man]

A few comments on accuracy though (especially for 44man). Before you take a pipe wrench to yours to increase rfiling twist (not a bad idea by the way!), you might want to slug the bore.
Believe it or not my groove to groove is .431" and the rifling with the Ballard is only .003" deep. I found no tight spots. I made molds and use RD boolits up to .434" with no improvement. I can't even get lighter boolits to shoot.
I get some tiny groups at 50 but at 100 it is just a guess to where the boolit will go.
Push the boolit too hard and it skids, reduce the load and it goes unstable from lack of spin.
It is a head scratcher when every one of my revolvers will shoot circles around a scoped Marlin. I have more faith hitting a deer off hand at 100 with a revolver then I do with the Marlin off the bench.
I have burned a lot of powder and lead and find nothing I want to hunt with, with confidence except at close range.
I consider the gun a waste of steel.

[longbow]

44man:

While I don't consider mine a complete waste of steel, I have to agree that for a rifle I have to work hard to get even reasonable accuracy. I like the gun but I do wish it shot better.

Oddly, some people seem to do real well with both the .44 and .444. I had an 1895 in .45-70 with microgroove rifling and it was a tack driver so why the difference ~ who knows?

Maybe tolerances, sloppy chambers (mine is sloppy), loosenes. I don't know. Mine is definietly better since being lapped and tightened but I still doubt I could match your handgun groups (in fact I am sure I couldn't).

I wish we could pack handguns here but in Canada that is a no go. Private property or range shooting only with handguns. So, I will keep working on the Marlin... at least for a little while longer.

I am hoping the RanchDog 265 gr. helps but I guess the proof will be in the shooting. I may have some answers on that by next week.

Longbow

[JesterGrin_1]

LongBow both 44Man and Myself have worked on our Marlins to a GREAT extent lol.

I think I have put over 600 rounds through my Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag and I think I am looking for something that can not be found with the Marlin and that is a great shooting rifle lol.

As said the RD 265Gr with the COL of 1.55 is just a bit short to feed well in my rifle. But if I extend the COL they will feed fine.

With the RD 265 Gr and the COL of 1.55 I can load 23.0Gr of W-296 or H-110 but that is the Max I am told by RanchDog ( Michael )

So since it did not function well and did not give good results I looked at other designs.

One was the 300Gr TC/GC that would shoot under 2 in at 100 yards but I hunt with my guns and did not feel the frontal area of the bullet would be all that great for hunting.

Then I moved to the Lee 310Gr with a Load of 21.0Gr of H-110 in a Rem case and a Standard CCI LPP and I would get 2 to 2 1/2 in groups at 100 yards. But that is the best I can do with the bullet. This one is a COL of 1.620 to 1.625

I also took a shot with the MiHec 44/444 group buy which is a 300Gr HP/GC that in my alloy comes out to 308Gr ready to go. And also found the best groups with 21.0 Gr of H-110 with the same Rem Case and CCI LPP. And the groups were about the same between it and the Lee 310Gr. This one is also at 1.620 - 1.625

Back to the Ranch Dog 265Gr lol. I also shoot a Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley Hunter in .44 Mag and the 310Gr Lee is a bit much and wished to be able to cast one bullet even if I do have to size the one for the Marlin at .432 and the Ruger at .431. I will still have the same bullet cast for both.

[JesterGrin_1]

44man:

While I don't consider mine a complete waste of steel, I have to agree that for a rifle I have to work hard to get even reasonable accuracy. I like the gun but I do wish it shot better.

Oddly, some people seem to do real well with both the .44 and .444. I had an 1895 in .45-70 with microgroove rifling and it was a tack driver so why the difference ~ who knows?

Maybe tolerances, sloppy chambers (mine is sloppy), loosenes. I don't know. Mine is definietly better since being lapped and tightened but I still doubt I could match your handgun groups (in fact I am sure I couldn't).

I wish we could pack handguns here but in Canada that is a no go. Private property or range shooting only with handguns. So, I will keep working on the Marlin... at least for a little while longer.

I am hoping the RanchDog 265 gr. helps but I guess the proof will be in the shooting. I may have some answers on that by next week.

Longbow

You are correct the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 is a tac driver but the reason for this is it has a 1-20 twist.

Also Marlin in there Lack of wisdom did replace the 444 twist from its 1-38 twist to the 1-20 so now they shoot as well as the 45-70 but they did not change the .44 1894 from the 1-38 to the 1-20 twist. If they do my rifle is headed straight to them for a barrel change lol.

What does worry me is that when I post my results and findings people say that is great shooting and in my mind I think what horrible shooting lol. It is a Rifle after all and should do at least 1 in or better groups at 100 yards just as my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 will do 3/4 groups and better at 100 yards and my Marlin 1894 Pre Safty .357 mag will do under 3/4 groups at 100 yards. Most of the time it will do right at 1/2 groups.

So LongBow if you wish We will keep you informed of what we find and what I find out in my quest. :)

I am new at the loading game and I am sure I have worn out 44 Man on this Marlin or shooting with the .44 Mag more than anyone should lol. But he has been a GREAT help.

[JesterGrin_1]

Ruger Super BlackHawk Bisley Hunter in .44 Mag. This is only at 50 yards with my Lyman 431244 Keith / GC sized .431
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0069.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0053-1.jpg

This is the Lee 310Gr in my Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag at 100 yards.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0051.jpg

This is my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 at 100 yards with the RD 350Gr with 52.0Gr of H-322 Rem case Fed 210 Primer. Bottom two were sighters and top three for group.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0005.jpg

This is from my Marlin 1894 .357 Mag but these are Jacket Hornady 180Gr at 100 yards. Bottom three I made a boo boo and pulled one into the bull. Top two was after sight change.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/Marlin357.jpg

The Marlins lol. Now the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 has a scout scope set up after the scope that is on it contacted my head one too many times lol.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0002-1.jpg

[longbow]

You are certainly doing better than I am for the most part, though I am using open sights with old eyes.

I am still working on loads and have a couple that have done reasonably well at 50 yards but I have not tried them at 100 yards yet.

I would certainly be interested in your results. I like the gun but I would really like it to shoot better!

I never could get decent accuracy with the Keith style boolits in mine and they do not feed well either as mentioned. The new Mihec H&G 503 does seem to be showing some promise though with regards to accuracy but feeding is still a bit of an issue. I find they hang up on the shoulder now.

So far my home made moulds have given best results. Still not great but better. I am hoping the RD mould works well.

I guess I should also qualify this by saying I have also shot only plain base or "J" bullets so a gas check may also tighten groups up some.

Maybe rebarreling to a faster twist is the answer.

Longbow

[JesterGrin_1]

To rebarrel would be great. But the price to do so on a Marlin would be so high it would be cheaper to sell the .44 Mag Marlin and get the 444 Marlin or the 45-70.

The beauty of the 444 is you can use the same bullets that you used for the .44 Mag.

Sorry I do not have a 444 Marlin but as you can tell I do like the Marlin in 45-70 :)

[longbow]

I wish I still had my 1895 but it was a victim of my need for money to go to school many years ago.

Mine was 1970's vintage with the straight grip like yours, 1/2 mag and 22" or 24" barrel.

I loved that gun but have never replaced it. It was a good shooter too.

Maybe one day. Now however, I am financing my kids through school so dad can't afford toys. Seems like education is keeping me gun poor!

Maybe one day again.

Longbow

[kelbro]

Maybe blasphemy here but before you give up on the rifle, try some jacketed bullets. My 1894 44 shoots 240gr JHPs into consistent 2" or less groups at 100 with open sights. I just got a set of Skinner apertures and hope to tighten it up even more.

I am trying several cast boolits/loads hoping to find one that clicks. A lot of fun granted, but I'm not about to spend a whole lot of time, effort and components trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Yep, I prefer cast and the hollow points are not my favorite for hogs or even whitetails.

I once found a ahem factory round for my 243 that shot and killed so well, I bought several boxes of the same lot and haven't reloaded for it since.

It's like when they asked the guy why he kept hitting himself in the head with a shovel and he said, 'Cause it feels so good when I stop.' :) :)

[longbow]

In my case, I have only shot maybe two boxes of factory jacketed 240 gr. about 25 years ago and did not record group size nor do I remember. I have had mediocre to poor accuracy with most cast boolits I have tried and really unitl the last 3 or 4 years have not worked hard at solving it.

I did buy some Hornady 300 gr. TC bullets and loaded those up with really poor results. Buckshot groups at 50 yards with some oval holes and all over the countryside at much past 50 yards. Even worse than 300 gr. cast.

Since I lapped the barrel and tightened all the loose bits and lapped moulds to drop boolits of 0.433" to 0.434" groups are much improved ~ not good but in comparison to what I was getting there may be hope yet.

I am of the opinion that cast allows more options to custom fit to the gun. I just need to work a little harder and play with a few more boolit designs.

Anyway, this is JesterGrin_1's thread so I should quit gabbing.

Longbow

[JesterGrin_1]

LongBow it is not my thread as in all threads they are not only to help the person with the question but anyone on the board or off the board looking for information. So please by all means say anything you may wish.

I have read the Speer Gold Dot 270Gr does well but nobody in my neck of the woods has them and to be honest I would rather cast or purchase bullets local. That way I will have them available when I need them. :)

[dmdracer]

Just a comment... A friend purchased a Marlin 44 ss 1894 last april...very nice rifle but it would not shoot consistenly with anything we tried. We did the usual stuff...tried diff loads.. you name it.
Purchased the Rd 265 mold and again tried diff loads, etc....same old same old..notta !

We discovered a problem with the thingy that holds the tube on and sent it back to Marlin for repair with notes and targets for there info. They only repaired that and did not look at anything else, kinda dissapointed with that service

Received it back and again went thru all the above... and the same results :(

Long story "longer" I called Marlin and explained all this, he sent me a shipping label and off it went, we received it back... they had to replace the barrel.

We started over in load development... it has made a world of difference in the "few" we have shot, all around 2"moa @ 100 the best were Hornady 200 gr xtp's, we ran out of g/c's for the RD molds so we have not retried the 265 yet... he actually bought a Ruger 77/44 in the time the Marlin was gone.. he lost confidence with the Marlin, we worked a load up for deer season and he used that this year... with good results.

The Marlin is sitting right now but plan on developing a load this spring... too many other irons in the fire right now.

Just a thought on the barrel.... yes I'm with you all on the twist rate.... should be faster.

Regards
Dave

[JesterGrin_1]

The sad thing is from everything I have read the best groups are right around 2 in at 100 yards. Sad to say.

But we are working on it and working on it and working on it lol. :)