Sharps 50-90: effect of slower twist rates on accuracy

[dcwilliams29id]

I am interested in getting a Shiloh 50-90 with a 14lb heavy 30" barrel, and a 1:36" barrel. And am intending to use lighter 400 - 550 gr bullets like the original 50-90 for hunting. I do not shoot competition.

Does the slower turn rate on the barrel adversely affect accuracy at longer ranges (over 200 yards, etc.)? Is there a down side to shooting the lighter .50 bullets? I figure a 15.5lb gun with only a 400 - 500 gr. bullet would produce very manageable recoil (I regularly shoot 7mm win mag, .308, etc).

The other question is would I just be better off getting a .45-110, as it will stabilize the same weight bullet (500gr) out to much further distances. I have a 600+ yard range at my house, so bench time is not a problem.

Any advise \ suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[martinibelgian]

Those bullets in a .50 will be light for caliber, so probably OK for hunting purposes - but not so good for longer-range shooting. Then again, looking at the rainbow-like trajectories, there's no use in trying to shoot game at longer ranges with one of the BP rounds. Recoil with that bullet won't be an issue in a 15+lb rifle - lugging it around is another thing...
When reading your post, I seem to be getting mixed signals - a rifle for hunting - but also for longer-range use?
Which brings us to another thing - will you be using BP or nitro?

[dcwilliams29id]

I would be using BP only. I would never shoot at anything over about 400yds (with my modern rifles, however I bang steel targets at 600+ for fun). Just too many variables come into play for me when hunting at anything over that distance (wind, angle of shot, animal movement, etc.). Realistically, I have never killed an animal much past 200 yards. When I hunt out west, there are opportunities past that, but I am generally able to stalk well within 200 - 300 yards to get a good shot - sometimes much closer. Longer distance shooting would be for fun only.

Would the .50 be much easier to get up and running than the .45-110?

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Boz330]

The 45 will take anything in North American, the 50 will probably kill it deader.:kidding: The big thing is that past 200yrd, range estimation and knowing sight settings or holdover gets critical. On something like a whitetail size animal a mistake of 25yd can be a miss or worse a wounded animal. Trigger time at different distances is the key along with a range finder for precise settings.
As far as a 15lb rifle goes I would hate to pack that when I was in my prime let alone now. :shock: On the other hand that is why there are Fords and Chevys.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

For what you've described a 45-70 weighing in at 10 lbs would fit the bill nicely.
But maybe ol Leadpot will chime in here , he's a 50-90 shooter of exceptional ablity, so's Mulhern so you should get some good 50-90 advice shortly. Those big 50's don't kick all that bad even with the 600 + bullets.

[dcwilliams29id]

Thanks for the feedback so far, it is greatly appreciated. I wanted to attempt to mimic a historical caliber rifle for the early buffalo hunting years. Thats why I was thinking about the Shiloh Hartford in .50-90 with 30" 14lb barrel (or 16 perhaps if it would help with the bite of the military butt) with straight stock, military butt, pewter tip. Something like the Sharps on pg. 220 of Sellers book that shows the .50 sold in 1872. Or possibly a Shiloh #3 with a Shotgun stock and metal shotgun butt, in the same configuration as above minus the hartford collar and straight stock.

I read on several forums that the .50's with the 1:22 twist don't like the lighter weight bullets (Like the original big .50 457 grain grooved bullets), and you must use the heavier bullets to get them shooting well (which increases recoil substantially). I am used to shooting lighter weight bullets (350gr) out of my .50 front stuffer with 100 - 150 grains of powder, but am not quite sure what to make of how the recoil will be on the .50-90 with 700 gr bullets (I imagine QUITE stiff... even out of a 16lb rifle).

As far as weight, I don't move around much when hunting here in the east. When I hunt out west, I usually pack in and stay for a week or so, and have typically done so on foot carrying over 70lb's of gear on my back. Obviously, a heavy rifle can make things more challenging, but there is some additional weight I can trim out of my setup to makeup for a few pounds if necessary.

Again, I greatly appreciate the help as this is a new foray into BPCR's for me. I have shot .45-70 before, and shot percussion BP quite a bit, but never gotten into BPCR's, and am excited about getting back into cartridge rifles that offer a challenge (I also bowhunt and love the challenge).

[Lead pot]

Mr williams I shoot the .50-90 but mine has the 1/22 left hand twist so my bullets are 650 grain +, I use the 718 grain bullet and with it I can stay on the white plate on a 1200 yard buffalo that is about 20" in diameter.
I cant give you any reliable information on a 1/36" twist other than hear say and I wont do that. I have shot one rifle with that slow twist and it was a sweet shooting rifle.
I would suggest you talk to Orville Loomer on the Shiloh site he has the rifle I shot and I have watched him shooting this rifle from the kneeling position using barrel sights and making good hits at a 600 yard target using a light PP bullet that you are asking about.

If I was to get another .50 I think I might take a twist between what I have and a 1/36 so I could use a heavy or light ball.
But for hunting I would not want it above 12 pounds. mine weighs right at #13 with a 34" barrel.
Kurt

[Lead pot]

By the way.

The .50-90 did not have much play on the Buff Range till the end, more were shot I think with a 44-77 or .44-90's or the 45's

Kurt

[Boz330]

The slower twist barrels were designed as an express rifle. Lighter bullet at higher velocity to flatten the trajectory. Sounds sort of like what you are looking for, for hunting. But it still doesn't compare to a modern HP rifle. If you look at the hunting rifles of the 1800s in the popular calibers of today their twist rates were much slower than what you see now.
I have hunted deer with nothing but BPCR or ML for quite a few years now. Adds a bit of a challenge to it and I would like to try Pronghorn with one someday for a real challenge. Unfortunately I didn't get these things done before 2 bad knees and lower back came along. The dues of a miss spent youth thinking I was bullet proof.[smilie=b:

Bob

[Bullshop]

I dont know about that lead pot. The Bill Dixon shot was with a 50/90. Jim White one of the most productive hunters used a 50/90 as well as others that were true Buff hunters not wanabees.
Maybe your thinking 50/140 which would be true. The buff were gone by the time it came out.
I have a book that lists some of the records kept by hunters as to how many shots fired in a stand to take what number of buff and by far the 50/90 stands out as the closest to one to one. As caliber goes down the shots fired per buff harvested goes up.
I may even have a couple spare copies given to me by my friend and the author of the book, The encyclopedia of buffalo hunters by Leo Remiger and Miles Gilbert.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[StrawHat]

I agree the 50-140 was a buffalo latercomer but I thought the 50-90 was late in the game also. I thought the 50-70 was the premier 50 caliber buffalo cartridge.

In the 45 calibers I thought the availability of the 45-70 cartridge would have placed it in the forefront of that caliber.

[dcwilliams29id]

I appreciate all of the great feedback. Lead Pot, How relatively difficult is it to get the .50 up and shooting well compared to the other calibers (.45-70, .45-90, .45-110). I have heard individuals say that the .50-70 was one of the easiest BPC's to get to shoot well, but have not heard a lot about the 50-90.

Also,

I wonder if the 50-90 could have been much more popular early on than we suspect. .50-90 cases were found in the excavation at the adobe walls site where Billy Dixon made his famous shot, and in Sellers book he notes a letter dated Oct. 1875, in which Lee and Reynolds out of Texas ordered 16,000 .50-100 cartridges, only 8,000 of each .40-90 and .44-75, 4,000 .44-90 and 3000 .50-70. Don't know if this is a typical order for the era, but they ordered 2:1 50-100 over any other cartridge they purchased. I think later during the hunt on the Northern herds that a shift occurred towards the .45's according to what I have looked at.

[Lead pot]

I don't have a .45-110 so I cant talk about that one but I had a 120 (3.25)
But the .50-90 (2.5) will shoot just about any combination of a powder load with the bullet I use.
I have loaded it with 90 grains of 1F goex to 120 grains even 115 grains of 3F goex express and I shot them all good.
I have two .45 90 sharps that will not shoot as well as the 50 and 3 45-70's that shoot good the .40-70 was a little tempermental when I first got it but it also shoots very good.
But for the last five years at the quigley I used the .50 also at the Alliance shoot I used the 50 because it is the most consistently shooting rifle I have and it has done good for me at the last two shoots.I cant say enough good about the .50.
But it will bite you if you dont watch how you handle it.

Kurt

[BruceB]

My Shiloh, a very early one built in Farmingdale NY, was originally a .50-90, although it was bought (and marked) as a .50-140. Early measurements showed that it had a 2.5" chamber, not the 3.25" marked on the outside.

The chamber was of the "paper-patch" design like the original Sharps' rifles (a very long, gradual slope leading to the rifling origin). I could NOT seat any grooved-bullet design long enough to reach the lands.

In addition, the barrel was rifled with a 1:38 pitch, and accuracy was never good in any attempt I made over quite a few years.

Shiloh themselves has changed their .50-90 barrels to a conventional chamber, and the rifling twist is now 1:22 I believe. D'you think maybe they know something?

Shiloh (Kirk Bryan himself) offered me a half-price rebarreling job for any chambering they make, and I took him up on it. The rifle is now a .45-2.1 (.45-70, for most purposes) and I'm a much happier camper. I don't hold out much hope for a .50-90 with that sloooow twist.

[dcwilliams29id]

I wonder if that poor accuracy was ultimately a result of all of that freebore that plagued most early farmingdale sharps. I just was reading over on the shiloh forums where Orville has apparently gotten his 1:36 to shoot pretty well with the lighter weight PP bullets. I am going to try to put in a call to Kirk tomorrow to discuss.

[NickSS]

The 50-90 (or 50 2.5") is a great caliber and can be made to shoot extremely well. It was used extensively during the big buffalo hunt as were the 50-70 and 44-77 sharps cartridges. Actually just about any cartridge around was used to kill buffalo including shotguns and pistols at one time or another. Many of the old records refer to the Sharps big 50 but there are some who think this term was used for both the 50-70 and 50-90 cartridges. I personally know that a 50-70 iis a good buffalo killer having used an original 1866 Springfield musket to kill one last year in Wyoming. I used a lyman 425 gr bullet except with the 30-1 alloy I used it weighed 440 gr. It went clean through the critter and it only traveled 5 steps before falling over. From personal experience any of the buffalo calibers will shoot to 600 yards with ease given a good load. I shoot 45-70s more than any other caliber and have scored well all the way out to 1200 yards in bulls eye shooting with it and 535 gr bullets. I have killed an antilope several years ago with one shot from a bp driven 45-70 at a measured 375 yards. In preparation for that hunt I had fired test groups all the way out to 500 yards in 25 yard increments and had a chart of sight settings pasted to my stock. I used a lazier range finder to read the range. It worked but I must admit it was more of a stunt than anything else.

You hear a lot about Billie Dixon shooting an indian at something like 1500 yards and I have no doubt he did it but I am also sure of two things. Dixon was very lucky and the Indian was very un-lucky.

[EDK]

I wonder if that poor accuracy was ultimately a result of all of that freebore that plagued most early farmingdale sharps. I just was reading over on the shiloh forums where Orville has apparently gotten his 1:36 to shoot pretty well with the lighter weight PP bullets. I am going to try to put in a call to Kirk tomorrow to discuss.

You might want to talk to Orville about his 50/90 reamer, in addition to slower twist rate in his rifle. One of the high points of going to the Quigley shoot is to hear what Orville, Lead Pot aka Kurt, and Powderburner aka Dean have to say. . They have forgotten more than I can ever learn

My 50/90 Shiloh is a Long Range Express with a recoil reducer in the butt stock. You DO NOT want a curved butt plate on any serious caliber rifles!

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Bullshop Junior]

Nickss
According to the book Dickson himself claimed it was a scratch shot.

[Southern Son]

One of the guys I shot with at Milmerran had a Shiloh 50/90 (bought second hand) and he had to get it rebarrelled so he could shoot the longer boolits. The only Shiloh I have seen and it was stunning, pity it didn't shoot how he wanted.

[powderburnerr]

DC williams .
I have and shoot a 50-2&1/2, it has a 1-36 twist and I shoot a 473 gn bullet out of it with very good results .The bullet Orville and I use is a copy of an origional pp bullet and with 100 gns of powder it will shoot very well to the quigley buffalo ,about 800 yds , . I shot mine side by side with Orville and we used the same settings on our barrel sights . I wouldnt shoot animals further than 150 to 200 just because but the load hits a metal target with authority at 800 ......Dean

[RMulhern]

As for the 'Dixon shot' which was reportedly at a distance of 1537 yards.....in later years when Dixon was scouting for General Miles.....he had an occasion to meet up with Quanah Parker who led the raid at Adobe Walls. Dixon's shot came up in conversation between the two and Parker advised that the Indian that was knocked off his horse had been hit in the leg and that he recovered fully! Also...there was some info that would lead one to believe that the shot glanced off a rock before striking the Indian. At any rate....Dixon called it a 'lucky scratch shot' and if the truth be known....he could have probably shot a boxcar full of ammo in trying to make the shot over again....without much luck!!

[dcwilliams29id]

"Luck" I'm sure had something to do with it, but Benjamin Franklin said that diligence is the mother of good luck. Obviously, Dixon was a heck of a shot anyways and I think we are quick to discredit a shot like that on luck (as the army did at the time as well), when most of us would be "lucky" to hit a semi-truck at that distance with that round in 1 shot, in a borrowed rifle. Hitting an Indian sized target certainly had "lucky" elements, but I have a sneaky suspicion that Dixon was no slouch with a rifle (especially since his livelihood depended on it).

I am certain after I get my first there will probably be a second and a third rifle down the line, but I am leaning towards the 1:36 50-90 at this point. Especially since there are others that are shooting this setup well (I only should have to work on the wheel as opposed to reinvent it).

[montana_charlie]

When we lived in Dodge City, Kansas, I was in the fifth grade. Though I had never fired anything bigger than a BB gun, I was a pretty good rifle shot.
My BB gun was the least expensive model produced by Daisy in those days, but I had put a 'ton' of BB's through it.

A friend got a new one for his birthday, and it was the fancy model that looked exactly like a Winchester 94. We went 'hunting' in a field near his house, and he allowed me to shoot it.

Looking around for a 'first target' with this truly wonderful rifle, I spied a bird (crow?) on a power line.
Today, I have no idea of how far that shot was. But, I clearly remember holding 'several birds' high, and 'four or five birds' to the left because of a light wind.

You can imagine my surprise when the bird jumped straight up, fluttered, and fell straight down to the ground. He wasn't dead, but he was fatally hit.

I would guess I felt (that day) the same way Billy Dixon felt at Apache Wells.
That would be 'head-wagging amazed and stutter-talking astounded'...

CM

[dcwilliams29id]

CM,

I've had a couple of those shots that surprise myself over the years, I imagine he was shocked when that indian fell over. I guess I was trying to say he had some extremely solid fundamentals going for him to even have a chance at being that lucky with with a borrowed gun :)

DC

[doubs43]

When we lived in Dodge City, Kansas, I was in the fifth grade. Though I had never fired anything bigger than a BB gun, I was a pretty good rifle shot.
My BB gun was the least expensive model produced by Daisy in those days, but I had put a 'ton' of BB's through it.

A friend got a new one for his birthday, and it was the fancy model that looked exactly like a Winchester 94. We went 'hunting' in a field near his house, and he allowed me to shoot it.

Looking around for a 'first target' with this truly wonderful rifle, I spied a bird (crow?) on a power line.
Today, I have no idea of how far that shot was. But, I clearly remember holding 'several birds' high, and 'four or five birds' to the left because of a light wind.

You can imagine my surprise when the bird jumped straight up, fluttered, and fell straight down to the ground. He wasn't dead, but he was fatally hit....
CM

CM, my father once shot a hawk (legal at the time) that had carried one of the family chickens to the top of a tall tree on a wooded hill. My father worked his way as close as he dared and took a shot with his 8" barrel Artillery Luger from roughly 100 yards. He used a tree to steady his aim. The hawk tumbled to the ground along with the chicken. My father walked up to the chicken that was lying on it's back with it's feet in the air. To all appearance it was dead. A nudge with a foot and the chicken leaped straight up in the air and flapping it's wings went squawking down the hill as fast as it could go!

[rockrat]

FWIW, I have a 50 Alaskan with a 1-22" twist and it shoots 450gr slugs just fine

[dcwilliams29id]

From my reading it appeared as thought the slower twist rate of 1:36 would stabilize the lighter bullets much better, but your comments do make me wonder how much is better. Will the 1:22 give OK performance at 100-200 yards with a 450 to 550gr bullet (2 to 3 MOA if everything else is tuned)?

[Don McDowell]

You can get by with a faster twist if you're jamming bullets thru the barrel at higher velocity.
Google up twist rate and there'll be a couple of online calculators you can use to see what might happen.

[herbert buckland]

i have a armi sports spencer rifle 56-50 with a 1-20 twist rate it will stabilise a .512 lyman 515-141BV 450gr boolit very well at 100meters,i belive this is the abolut fastest twist rate for the .975 inch long boolit as if i youse a shorter bullet acuracy goes to hell,and over 100meters acuracy dropes of quickly

[Lead pot]

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0311.jpg

Ok I swaged up some bullets today, had nothing better to do, been kinda cold today.
These are .50 cal from L-R 443gr, 660gr, 718gr, and 760gr.
I used my 44 cal GG bullet and swaged it to .493 and some of the 718 GG that I use in my 50 so I ran them through the .493 swage die to make shape and diameter the same.
I will put the scope back on the .50-90 so there wont be a sighting error because of my failing eyes.
If the snow aint falling to hard tomorrow I will use my 130 yard target see how they print.
That little 443 grain kinda looks like a round ball so we will see how it stands up in a 1/22 twist barrel.
Shot some 500? some grain bullets once and they looked like they were shot from a shot gun.

Kurt

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0314.jpg

Ok I shot 6 at the lower target with the 433 grain bullet using 110gr of 1.5 Swiss with a .023 card under the powder and a .023 over the powder 1/18 lube wad and a .023 under the bullet.
The top target I used the same load except I used the smaller 660gr and fired 5 rounds at it.
All bullets were patched to bore diameter at .500"
The 718 normally does better.
This kind of surprised me that it shot that tight with that light bullet because when I shot a 500+? it would not stay on the paper.

Kurt

[Boz330]

Here is a site that you can run the numbers on.
http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/twistrate.htm

Bob

[herbert buckland]

That sight explaines why my spencer shoots so well with with the lyman 450gr bullit ,i had it down to bullit lenth but it velocity or lack of it that is making it work in the 1in 20 twist barell,and it makes it very clear what twist rate i will need in a new barell to stabilise a .733 inch long bullet at 1100fps

[Don McDowell]

Kurt you sure you ought to be shooting that dear ol gal so soon???????

[Lead pot]

I'm about ready to climb the walls Don.
I cant remember if I told you that the Doc. decided to try therapy first because of the many old injuries and arthritis higher up the spinal column thinking it might cause more problems by pinning the two blown discs. So they been working on it and I was told if I wanted to shoot I could with a light caliber like a .22:holysheep
I shot the .45/2.5 a few days ago from the hip and got along just fine with that.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Do you even know what a 22 is?????

[dcwilliams29id]

Kurt,

I greatly appreciate the help! That 443gr. does look pretty anemic compared to that 718gr. bullet. Don't go shaking any more disks loose with that .50-90 though ;)

[Lead pot]

:lol: Yes Don, I bought a case of .22 standard velocity target sometime in the late 70's or early 80's and I'm still working getting rid of them:lol: They are the best shooters in the Win low wall.

[Lead pot]

That little 443gr round ball wont shake anything loose:D

Kurt

[Lead pot]

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0311.jpg

Ok I swaged up some bullets today, had nothing better to do, been kinda cold today.
These are .50 cal from L-R 443gr, 660gr, 718gr, and 760gr.
I used my 44 cal GG bullet and swaged it to .493 and some of the 718 GG that I use in my 50 so I ran them through the .493 swage die to make shape and diameter the same.
I will put the scope back on the .50-90 so there wont be a sighting error because of my failing eyes.
If the snow aint falling to hard tomorrow I will use my 130 yard target see how they print.
That little 443 grain kinda looks like a round ball so we will see how it stands up in a 1/22 twist barrel.
Shot some 500? some grain bullets once and they looked like they were shot from a shot gun.

Kurt

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0314.jpg

Ok I shot 6 at the lower target with the 433 grain bullet using 110gr of 1.5 Swiss with a .023 card under the powder and a .023 over the powder 1/18 lube wad and a .023 under the bullet.
The top target I used the same load except I used the smaller 660gr and fired 5 rounds at it.
All bullets were patched to bore diameter at .500"
The 718 normally does better.
This kind of surprised me that it shot that tight with that light bullet because when I shot a 500+? it would not stay on the paper.

Kurt

Ok dc Williams

there is the data from today, I must say that little 433 grainer sure is a powder puff to shoot:-D

Kurt

Forgot, the range was only 130 yards.

[dcwilliams29id]

Kurt,

Thanks for testing that for us all to see. Looks like the lighter weight bullets didn't do terribly within 100 yards which would be fine for hunting, but you do still have the option to use the much heavier rounds if desired with the higher rate of twist. Interesting. I would have expected the light bullets to perform much more poorly as well.

[Lead pot]

Perhaps they might have shot better if the load was cut down some to slow it down a little. The upper left three are very tight and they were shot #2,#3 and#6 in that order.
I might work with this size bullet a little more using a slower powder like regular Goex 1F and a different wad combination to slow the velocity down some.

Kurt

[dcwilliams29id]

Those 400 grainers probably did feel like shooting a Red Ryder after those big 'ol 700 grain cannon projectiles :)

[appleseedgunsmith]

I have owned a 50-90 for some time. My load consists of a 745 gr. bore riding spitzer bullet (my CAD design & cut by steve brooks) on top of 90 gr. of Goex fffg and 2 beeswax discs. I am getting 1150 fps. Recoil is substantial even from a 12 lb rifle. Accuracy is hovering at 2.5"@ 100yds and it will shoot through just about everything!

[Multigunner]

Has anyone heard of Mercury being used to surface harden .50 Sharps bullets?
I'd read a list of items taken on the Stanley/Livingston expedition and they carried several Sharps rifles. Among the list of loading supplies was Mercury to be used to harden cast bullets for their Sharps rifles.

I figured this was some sort of heat treatment to allow heavier powder charges while avoiding stripping into the grooves.

[Lead pot]

You would have a hard time getting a properly fitted lead bullet to strip using black powder.
I shoot my 718 grain bullet at 1304 1327 if I compress 2f tight cast with 1/40 alloy and I have never seen any signs of stripping with all the bullets I recovered. But I have found bullets that stripped when I cast them at 1/16.

The .50 will shoot very good if you can swallow the recoil. Learn to roll with the recoil and don't shoot it in the dark (closing your eyes) and it will put the bullet where it belongs.
I read a lot that the .50-2.5 is no good for shooting in long strings at a match well that might be true for some that are recoil sensitive but dont you ever let my .50 hear you say that. When I go to a long range shoot I take 400+ rounds just to shoot a few days before the match because I don't have a place to shoot past 200 yards so I take advantage of the time I'm at a long range. I end up loading more rounds just so I can shoot the match. After 5-600 rounds fired in a few days I still have placed very good with 600 other shooters on line at the Quigley shoot with the extended recoil my Calamity will give me.


Kurt

[appleseedgunsmith]

with 90 grs? goex? what is your seat depth?

[Lead pot]

90 grains is minimum in my cases or I have to add more wads to put a little compression on the load. My load is 110 grains of 1F and 2F goex express using the Star line brass or 118 grains for the Bell brass to keep the same compression.
My bullet from a Brooks mould is 1.497 long and it weighs 720 grains with 1/40 alloy that I mostly use in the .50 and that bullet takes the whole block with just maybe 3/32" left on the bottom of the block and it is seated in the case about .640"

Kurt

[appleseedgunsmith]

that is serious compression. mine goes to .680 with 3f. im gonna have to try the coarser stuff

[Lead pot]

No not really. I compress .380

[appleseedgunsmith]

never heard of mercury being used but it is possible. would be hard to duplicate now since mercury is soooo.. not politically correct and is regulated. old timers used to drop a silver dime in the pot as well. i have done this and it has some merit. a silver dime will melt in my 900 degree pot, but then i use a turkey fryer with a 75 pound capacity dutch oven on it.

[Multigunner]

I found this passage in an old Encyclopedia Britanica Dictionary of Arts and Sciences at google books.



The bullets of sporting rifles, and particularly those of Express rifles, are often lighter than military bullets, and made with hollow points to ensure the expansion of the projectile on or after impact. The size and shape of the hollow in the point vary according to the purpose required and the nature of the game hunted. If greater penetration is needed, the leaden bullet is hardened with mercury or tin, or the military nickel-coated bullet is used with the small-bore, smokelesspowder rifles

Some of the Sharps Cartridges were very much like the British "Express" cartridges, a light bullet compared to the load, to give maximum velocity for the bore size and propellant.

Use of Mercury to harden the bullet seems intended more to reduce deformation and let the bullet drive deeper into meat and bone, so it could be used on heavy game.

Haven't found just how they used mercury yet.

[Rifledude]

I have a Farmingdale 50-90, and did a chamber cast only to find as described above as a VERY long throat. The twist measured out as 1-28" best as I can figure out. I had wondered if it was a PP chamber, and have a friend that has the twin to mine that also has the long throat.
What bullet would you be looking a to make this one shoot a group? I couldn't keep it on paper @ 50 yds w/ conventional grooved and lubed bullets of 515 gr and 450 gr.
Thanks in advance for your input.

[Don McDowell]

Rifledude your best bet would be to do a chamber cast and then use a 550 or 600 grain bullet the diameter of the measurement of the throat.