Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[StarMetal]

Here is a picture of a milk jug filled with water and shot with my Swede at 300 yards. As you may remember from before the rifle has a 2.5x10 Burris Mil Dot scope on it. I have it sighted in at 100 yards with the 6.5 Kurtz group buy. You may remember too I shoot the 6.5's at high velocity. Little more on that later. I places a cardboard behind the jug incase I had to take more then one shot to see where the bullets were going at that distance. Seems I didn't have to as the first mil dot below the crosshair was dead on for my load.

Now more about the high velocity. Some, or should I say many, question why shoot high velocity with the 6.5 Swede. Some are bona fide, but others I feel are sarcasm because they can't do it. Whatever I don't care. My reason is look at the damage to the jug. You can clearly see this wasn't any slow moving 6.5 bullet even at 300 yards. Further more the hole in the cardboard behind the jug showed very good expansion which surprised me. The alloy is 50/50 lead/wheelweights air cooled. Also I feel had I been shooting the bullet at say 1600 fps my drop would have been considerably more. I now have a pretty decent flat shooting cast load for my Swede which in my opinion is still pretty devastating at 300 yards.

Joe
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Jug65.jpg

[crabo]

What was the velocity?

[Jayhem]

That is a very soft alloy to be shooting over 1600 fps. I even felt that my handgun boolits were too soft with only 2% Antimony or 50% ww/50% lead. But if you are getting that kind of accuracy why change a good thing!

[StarMetal]

No it's not too soft an alloy. The velocity was little over 2300 fps. Much has to do how you load for the Swede. There is a very controversial loading technique that myself and a few other know about and use.

The proof is in the shooting and groups that have been done, again by myself and the few others. Water dropped or oven treated the alloy is much much harder.

Joe

[Shiloh]

Nice.

How many mills did you hold ever??

SHiloh

[StarMetal]

Nice.

How many mills did you hold ever??

SHiloh

Well I had to look to make sure I posted that and I did, but will repeat it for you. The first mil dot under the normal crosshair. I'd estimate maybe a 2-3 inch drop in the bullet from the 100 yard setting. I was quite surprised how flat it shot. I'll have to work up a load with BaBore's remake of the Lyman 266469 and see what it does as it's a tad heavier and longer for a even higher BC then the Kurtz. Remember that Kurtz is pretty much a flat nose.

I knew I had something at the shot because the jug literally exploded and kind of disappeared at the shot. I was expecting to see slight movement and some water spray.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

Joe, why the mystery? Why the "only a few others and me know"?

Kinda weird....

[StarMetal]

Joe, why the mystery? Why the "only a few others and me know"?

Kinda weird....

Been gone over in the other 6.5 posts numerous times. I'm not explaining it anymore. The only reason I mention it is so that one doesn't think they can normal load the Swede and achieve superb accuracy at high velocity and waste their components. I may do a test and waste my components and see if I can match these loads with conventional means. Final note: I believe there's been pretty much the whole technique described in many posts and also told about long ago.

Joe

[SciFiJim]

There is a very controversial loading technique that myself and a few other know about and use.

So what is it, a duplex load or something?

[nighthunter]

Heck .... anyone can hit a yellow milk jug. Don't they have the clear ones where you live? Just kidding ... good shooting. 6.5 is a nice caliber. I have 2 6.5 Japs that were my fathers. They both shoot cast very well.

Nighthunter

[geargnasher]

I changed an egr cooler on a 6.0L F-250 in under three hours on Monday. That requires a controversial and secret technique, too. Oh, wait! Sorry, wrong forum!!!

Gear

[waksupi]

Joe, why the mystery? Why the "only a few others and me know"?

Kinda weird....

The reason is, they are using unsafe loading practices.

[Bass Ackward]

There is a very controversial loading technique that myself and a few other know about and use. Joe


Very controversial? Really?

Sounds ...................... rebellious.

Somebody goin to have to teach me this some day.

Ahhhh, never mind if it is unsafe.

[StarMetal]

Heck .... anyone can hit a yellow milk jug. Don't they have the clear ones where you live? Just kidding ... good shooting. 6.5 is a nice caliber. I have 2 6.5 Japs that were my fathers. They both shoot cast very well.

Nighthunter

Actually we don't have the clear ones. They have the white and the yellow you saw. The yellow is from a premium dairy company here.

Joe

[buckweet]

Been gone over in the other 6.5 posts numerous times. I'm not explaining it anymore. Final note: I believe there's been pretty much the whole technique described in many posts and also told about long ago.

Joe




oh ? really ? you should, what about us noobes ? i have a swede, i'ed be interested in what you haves to say.

[StarMetal]

Very controversial? Really?

Sounds ...................... rebellious.

Somebody goin to have to teach me this some day.

Ahhhh, never mind if it is unsafe.

It's controversial because either the posters get PO'ed because I won't tell them, some mad because they can't get the HV with accuracy, others with the excuse they don't need HV loads for the Swede, the list goes on. One member, although he won't admit, left the forum...but has since returned over fighting with me in the 6.5 threads.

Waksupi, just firing a firearm can be dangerous. The loading technique is/only dangerous if not done correctly....I guess you could say that about any kind of loading huh? Like too much of the wrong powder? Once again....no it's not duplex loading.....which I have done with some pretty good results.

All I know is thanks to the technique my Swede has become one of most enjoyable rifles firing cast bullets with the accuracy and velocity rivaling jacketed loads. Now I know with the mil dot scope and the load I have that I can nail what I'm shooting at from 0 to 300 yards pretty well. Seems the energy is still there at that distance too. Might have to chrono the velocity at 300 yards to figure up the energy.

It's still rifle season here in TN for deer and the Swede is what I'm using for the next deer.

Joe

[Cadillo]

oh ? really ? you should, what about us noobes ? i have a swede, i'ed be interested in what you haves to say.


Don't play into his hand. The less attention you pay, the sooner this will go away. [smilie=b:

[StarMetal]

My my, the 6.5 Swede is such a touchy subject here. :coffeecom

Joe

[robertbank]

If you think this was a good shot say so, if not say so but leave it at that or the thread will get closed. We have been here before and we aren't going there again, are we? It is Christmas so I will leave it at that.

Take Care

Bob

[WHITETAIL]

Good shooting![smilie=w:

[Wally]

Good shooting---years ago I used my .444 Marlin at 350 Yards using a 4X Weaver scope on an innocent water filled one gallon milk jug--I head it dead center with the 240 JHP bullet (I was not inspired yet to use cast with it)..I hit the jug dead center and it was a spectacular explosion...nothing much left--I still feel guilty what I did to that innocent milk jug.

[Jaybird62]

I'm surprised that everyone is dancing around the "real" issue here: The TWRA hasn't opened a season on milk jugs.

[Jim]

I'm surprised that everyone is dancing around the "real" issue here: The TWRA hasn't opened a season on milk jugs.

A little illegal huntin' goin' on here, huh? Shameful, absolutely shameful.

[44man]

My my, the 6.5 Swede is such a touchy subject here. :coffeecom

Joe
It is a touchy subject with me! :groner:
My 1919 Swede has a pitted bore even with the take off barrel I put on it. It shoots bullets into 1/2" at 100 but I don't want to try cast in it. How I wish I had a smooth bore.
How a pitted barrel can shoot so good baffles me.
What do you think Joe, would it work with cast?

[StarMetal]

I had a special permit for jug hunting. Took me years to get it.

As for the shot, Mr Banks asked me to say whether I thought it was a good one or not. Actually the purpose of my post wasn't the shot. It was how flat and how much energy that really not good BC Kurtz 6.5 bullet had at 300 yards. As for the shot...heck probably all of you could have done that easy. I didn't mention I had a black bullseye on the jug and my shot was at the outer 1 o'clock position edge or that bull. That's what I was happy about that the first mil dot down under the regular crosshair put rifle pretty much on target without having to dial anything in.

Well I have to get that jug to the taxidermist.

Joe

[StarMetal]

It is a touchy subject with me! :groner:
My 1919 Swede has a pitted bore even with the take off barrel I put on it. It shoots bullets into 1/2" at 100 but I don't want to try cast in it. How I wish I had a smooth bore.
How a pitted barrel can shoot so good baffles me.
What do you think Joe, would it work with cast?

Jim,

I've had more then one military rifle that had some bad looking bores that shot surprisingly well. To me the fun is in shooting it, to see what it will do. If it doesn't shoot with everything tried, relegate to those 1/2 inch groups you shoot with jacketed. By the way that's pretty good too.

Joe

[rummy64]

Wow! this is so ironic! I 'm getting ready to go shoot a 6.5 Swede that I just picked up.
I honestly had no idea there were heated debates on the Swede! This board just keeps getting better!
Starmetal looks like you hit a nerve with quite a few people! I haven't been here long enough to know the history, but I'm sure if I stick around, it will come out.
I for one would be interested in knowing anything I can find out about loading the Swede.
I have long been impressed with the caliber, and now I finally own one.

[StarMetal]

Wow! this is so ironic! I 'm getting ready to go shoot a 6.5 Swede that I just picked up.
I honestly had no idea there were heated debates on the Swede! This board just keeps getting better!
Starmetal looks like you hit a nerve with quite a few people! I haven't been here long enough to know the history, but I'm sure if I stick around, it will come out.
I for one would be interested in knowing anything I can find out about loading the Swede.
I have long been impressed with the caliber, and now I finally own one.

rummy,

All I can say is make sure you have a milk jug permit. I'm getting hounded about that pretty good. :kidding:

Joe

[rummy64]

Well, I quit shooting milk jugs a long time ago! Hated having to dispose of the bodies. I'm pretty sure they're still open season here.

[Trifocals]

StarMetal: If you and .45 2.1 have discovered a reloading method of shooting relatively soft cast boolits at higher velocities with great accuracy from a 6.5 Swede (and perhaps other calibers), why keep dangling the information like a carrot in front of a donkey. If I am not mistaken, this forum's purpose is to share knowledge and technology re: cast boolits. Please....just post the "secret" and let those on this forum form their own opinions as to the feasibility of the info. :coffee:

[44man]

OK, Joe, I don't hunt with a rifle and haven't for a long time. Revolvers tug me into the woods.
But I might as well put the Swede to use. What would be my best choice of boolit to buy a mold for or to make?
Here is what the old girl looks like. The cherry came out of my woods, slabbed with a chainsaw.

[44man]

The other end.

[Dutchman]

I make it a point to know all I can about anything concerning 6.5x55 and/or the Swedish Mauser.

I've also [tired] of wading through the several message threads previous in this forum on this subject and witnessed the [extremely] contentious interaction, to the point of it being seen as highly dysfunctional behavior. As yet, I've not seen any technique described anywhere. Are there links to this previous discourse?

From this tap dancing act I could ascertain the reason for the subterfuge may lie in loading practice outside the norm, or considered unsafe. But, of course, this is just speculation based on no information shared.

Dutch

[StarMetal]

The other end.

Jim,

That's a mighty fine looking rifle. I'd recommend BaBore's remake of the Lyman 266469. Don't buy a new Lyman mold because they are undersized. That Swede needs a .268 bullet..that's the sized size. To squeeze out the last ounce of accuracy you'll have to use reformed 06 cases. Couple things you'll have to do if you use 06 brass...first I'm talking military...not commercial. Try to use LC or WRA 53 brass. You'll have to length trim them and neck turn them. What you are after are those thick necks to better center the bullet with the bore. Make sure to leave at least, at least, .001 expansion. Now here's the other tip for the brass. Rather then shoot them over and over to get the web to swell out uniformly to center the rear of the case do this. Cut a strip of Scotch Tape about 1/8 wide and about 5 inches long. Now warp that strip of tape around the web right in front of the extractor groove. In fact I align the one edge of my tape with that body/groove edge. You may have to adjust your tape length depending on how fat the rear of your chamber is. Put the tape on after you have reloaded the brass. Now to use you have to be careful to feed them into the chamber without scuffing the tape off. To do that remove your bolt, slide the cartridge rim up under the extractor onto the bolt face. Now while holding the bolt release lever fully open slide the assembly into the rifle being careful of the magazine floor plate. What I do when fireforming these the first time is remove the magazine guts. Then ram home and shoot. Jim this sounds like a lot of work, but honestly it's not too bad. Couple more things. After firing just lighty anneal the necks and shoulders. The other thing I should have mentioned in case prep and that is make an expander ball that's about .002 smaller then your sized .268 bullet.

Have fun Jim.

Joe

[semtav]

How a pitted barrel can shoot so good baffles me.


I hope they all do 44.
I just got my 30-06 back from my brother and it is pretty rusty. sure the barrel is pitted.

[swheeler]

Joe what power setting was the scope on?10X

[beemer]

StarMetal,
How is your rifle set up? I have a Swede that I had set up with a scope and the bolt turned, other than that it is in military dress.

Dave

[StarMetal]

StarMetal,
How is your rifle set up? I have a Swede that I had set up with a scope and the bolt turned, other than that it is in military dress.

Dave

Beemer,

It's a stock 96 Swede with a birch stock, has the turned down bolt handle, a Timney trigger, and of course the scope. Nothing else, no bedding or anything.

swheeler

The scope was set to 10 where it's always set. I made the shot from my pc room window off a pillow. I can tell you it wasn't the steadiest of setups.

Joe

[swheeler]

Just wondering Joe since the B-plex reticle is in the first focal plane. I wasn't aware of this many years ago and was shooting over 300 yd gong on lower power, cranked it up to 9x anmd it worked like it was supposed to. All my variables are kept set on lowest/lower power until needed, they are hunting rifles. Even with a BC of .350 and a 100 yd zero that bullet should be dropping about 2 feet and have an impact velocity of 1600+. Looks like time to hang some 300 yd targets, maybe 3 stacked vertical and use the cross hair, see what it is dropping to center of group.

[StarMetal]

Just wondering Joe since the B-plex reticle is in the first focal plane. I wasn't aware of this many years ago and was shooting over 300 yd gong on lower power, cranked it up to 9x anmd it worked like it was supposed to. All my variables are kept set on lowest/lower power until needed, they are hunting rifles. Even with a BC of .350 and a 100 yd zero that bullet should be dropping about 2 feet and have an impact velocity of 1600+. Looks like time to hang some 300 yd targets, maybe 3 stacked vertical and use the cross hair, see what it is dropping to center of group.

Scot,

Which bullet and caliber you shooting that has a BC of .350? I was told by 45 2.1 when I was shooting this before at that distance not to hold over so much. He was right. I've done this same thing with my AR15 in 6.5 Grendel too. Except with the Grendel I was shooting five shot groups. It was grouping 1.5 inches at 300 yards with that Saeco 140 grain bore rider. That bullet has a lot higher BC. Too bad the Swede is picky on bullet diameter and that it has that loooong throat or I'd try that Saeco bullet. It's a very accurate bullet.

Joe

[swheeler]

Scot,

Which bullet and caliber you shooting that has a BC of .350? I was told by 45 2.1 when I was shooting this before at that distance not to hold over so much. He was right. I've done this same thing with my AR15 in 6.5 Grendel too. Except with the Grendel I was shooting five shot groups. It was grouping 1.5 inches at 300 yards with that Saeco 140 grain bore rider. That bullet has a lot higher BC. Too bad the Swede is picky on bullet diameter and that it has that loooong throat or I'd try that Saeco bullet. It's a very accurate bullet.

Joe

I am taking a guess at a .350 BC for the 6.5 Kurtz YOU are shooting at 2300 fps, that's why I said determine amount of drop from 100-300 and use that to calculate BC for the Kurtz.

[StarMetal]

I am taking a guess at a .350 BC for the 6.5 Kurtz YOU are shooting at 2300 fps, that's why I said determine amount of drop from 100-300 and use that to calculate BC for the Kurtz.

Scot,

I'm just going to shoot across the chrono at 300 yards. My rifle shoots plenty good enough to do that. Then we'll find out.

Joe

[44man]

Jim,

That's a mighty fine looking rifle. I'd recommend BaBore's remake of the Lyman 266469. Don't buy a new Lyman mold because they are undersized. That Swede needs a .268 bullet..that's the sized size. To squeeze out the last ounce of accuracy you'll have to use reformed 06 cases. Couple things you'll have to do if you use 06 brass...first I'm talking military...not commercial. Try to use LC or WRA 53 brass. You'll have to length trim them and neck turn them. What you are after are those thick necks to better center the bullet with the bore. Make sure to leave at least, at least, .001 expansion. Now here's the other tip for the brass. Rather then shoot them over and over to get the web to swell out uniformly to center the rear of the case do this. Cut a strip of Scotch Tape about 1/8 wide and about 5 inches long. Now warp that strip of tape around the web right in front of the extractor groove. In fact I align the one edge of my tape with that body/groove edge. You may have to adjust your tape length depending on how fat the rear of your chamber is. Put the tape on after you have reloaded the brass. Now to use you have to be careful to feed them into the chamber without scuffing the tape off. To do that remove your bolt, slide the cartridge rim up under the extractor onto the bolt face. Now while holding the bolt release lever fully open slide the assembly into the rifle being careful of the magazine floor plate. What I do when fireforming these the first time is remove the magazine guts. Then ram home and shoot. Jim this sounds like a lot of work, but honestly it's not too bad. Couple more things. After firing just lighty anneal the necks and shoulders. The other thing I should have mentioned in case prep and that is make an expander ball that's about .002 smaller then your sized .268 bullet.

Have fun Jim.

Joe
Thanks Joe, I have to look at his boolit. Babore makes the best molds going.
I made a lot of 6.5 brass from 06 new cases when I could not buy the brass. I annealed, formed, trimmed, turned and reamed them, then annealed the necks again.
Trouble was after sitting loaded for a year or so, all the necks split. Not from shooting, just in the MTM box.
I started with a .250 die before going to the 6.5 die.
Have you had any trouble with split cases?

[StarMetal]

Thanks Joe, I have to look at his boolit. Babore makes the best molds going.
I made a lot of 6.5 brass from 06 new cases when I could not buy the brass. I annealed, formed, trimmed, turned and reamed them, then annealed the necks again.
Trouble was after sitting loaded for a year or so, all the necks split. Not from shooting, just in the MTM box.
I started with a .250 die before going to the 6.5 die.
Have you had any trouble with split cases?

Jim,

You end up with necks only slightly thicker then factory 6.5 brass using commercial 06. A step in the right direction, but not as good as the military.

When you size form them and neck turn them is what work hardens the necks. Like I mentioned shoot them that first time and then give them a light annealing.

Joe

[John Boy]

I cast no dispersions about anyone's targets but, I witnessed a shooter using a scoped 6.5 x 284 Winchester rifle hit an egg (dead center) at ... 1000yds on the 3rd pull of the trigger with gusting winds of 21mph! The 1st two shots were within inches of the egg. Then I tried with my iron sight 7.5x55 and best I could do was about 3 feet. Hats off to the 6.5 caliber!

[StarMetal]

I cast no dispersions about anyone's targets but, I witnessed a shooter using a scoped 6.5 x 284 Winchester rifle hit an egg (dead center) at ... 1000yds on the 3rd pull of the trigger with gusting winds of 21mph! The 1st two shots were within inches of the egg. Then I tried with my iron sight 7.5x55 and best I could do was about 3 feet. Hats off to the 6.5 caliber!

John,

Those 6.5-284 are real long distance shooters. 6.5 bullets have a very high BC too which helps lots.

Joe

[gray wolf]

That Mill.dot (mill radiant) spelling--is set to function at ten power. From center cross hair to
the next dot upper or lower should be close to 3.5 inches at 100 yards.
So with a dead on hold zeroed at 100 yards the bullet dropped 10.5".
Does that sound correct?
Mill dots are fun and great for getting the correct distance if you know how to use them,
I love my Ziese 2.5-10x50.

GW.

[swheeler]

Scot,

I'm just going to shoot across the chrono at 300 yards. My rifle shoots plenty good enough to do that. Then we'll find out.

Joe

That'll work just fine. Let us know how fast it is still moving, like someone here says "there are no flys, on the 6.5's"

[StarMetal]

That Mill.dot (mill radiant) spelling--is set to function at ten power. From center cross hair to
the next dot upper or lower should be close to 3.5 inches at 100 yards.
So with a dead on hold zeroed at 100 yards the bullet dropped 10.5".
Does that sound correct?
Mill dots are fun and great for getting the correct distance if you know how to use them,
I love my Ziese 2.5-10x50.

GW.

I was dead on center bull at 100. Using the first lower mil dot I struck approximately 2.0 inches high at 300 yards.

Joe

[Calamity Jake]

"To squeeze out the last ounce of accuracy you'll have to use reformed 06 cases. "


Is the above a must? or can I use the Lapua 6.5 brass?

I have C. G. 1906 that is short throated enough that I can use the Saeco 264 and touch the lands. I think I might try this high speed stuff.

[rummy64]

StarMetal,
where did you find 30.06 military brass? Unless I'm missing something, our military hasn't used the 06 since Veitnam! Is somebody else using it, or did you find an old stock somewhere, or have you had it for 30 some years?
Also, why do the 06 cases work better for the swede? I've never fire formed, and I'm new to the caliber. I've always heard that this was a very accurate round.
:shock:

[Uncle R.]

I think it was a good shot for a high velocity load in a Swede.

[StarMetal]

I think it was a good shot for a high velocity load in a Swede.

Thanks Uncle R, but I really don't think it was that great. I honestly believe I could hit that jug with many of my other military rifles and I know I can hit it with a couple of my 45 Colt revolver. We know 44man could nail that jug. Went one gets those Swedes shooting they are like sniper rifles.

Joe

[rummy64]

It was a great shot, but I'm lokking at a 6.5 Swede loaded round next to a .270 loaded shell.
The very end of the 6.5 neck only comes to the base of the neck/ beginning of the shoulder.
That's about a 1/4 inch difference. I don't have an 06, so I'm basing the comparrison on a .270. Unless I've got it confussed, the .270 is based on the .06 case, right? (be nice to me if I'm wrong;))

[StarMetal]

It was a great shot, but I'm lokking at a 6.5 Swede loaded round next to a .270 loaded shell.
The very end of the 6.5 neck only comes to the base of the neck/ beginning of the shoulder.
That's about a 1/4 inch difference. I don't have an 06, so I'm basing the comparrison on a .270. Unless I've got it confussed, the .270 is based on the .06 case, right? (be nice to me if I'm wrong;))


rummy,

Yes the 270 is among one of the first 06 off springs. Came along around 1925. Many don't realize it's that old. Fine cartridge. For me when a cartridge gets up around 06 capacity I don't like them for cast work. Too much powder space. Jacketed wise they are great. I'll tell you another cartridge just about as great as the Swede and that is the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur. It too has it's share of fame including big game hunting in Africa and also as a military round.

Joe

[rummy64]

Joe (I can call you Joe, right?)
It just seems like a long way to push that 06 shoulder down. You guys know your stuff, and I'm sure it can be done. As I mentioned, I don't have any experience with reforming cases.
But what is it with the Swede brass, that the reformed brass works better for accuracy?

[StarMetal]

Joe (I can call you Joe, right?)
It just seems like a long way to push that 06 shoulder down. You guys know your stuff, and I'm sure it can be done. As I mentioned, I don't have any experience with reforming cases.
But what is it with the Swede brass, that the reformed brass works better for accuracy?

Rummy,

I explained it in the post to 44man in this same thread. The Swede has a very generous neck portion of the chamber. The body section of the chamber can be overcome by neck sizing only. Then the case fits the chamber like a glove except for the neck. The case neck must be smaller then the chamber or it can't release the bullet which can cause very high pressures. With the military 06 brass you get a thicker neck and with the right military brass, too thick of a neck. Then you must neck trim it down to a size that is at the minimum .001 inch smaller then the chamber neck area. With good reloading dies and the thicker necks trimmed to the right thickness, in conjunction with the neck sizing....give you the optimum centering of the bullet in the bore. It's very important to start the bullet into the bore as straight as possible. You can see what can happen if the bullet is started crooked. I've taken loads that shot very small groups with my prepared military 06 brass and shot them in commercial brass...same exact powder charge, same bullet, primer, etc.. The always shot much larger groups. My 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur is another rifle that requires the same treatment. With more modern rifles you can often get away with commercial brass because the neck area of the chamber isn't as larger as some of these old military rifles.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Too bad the Swede is picky on bullet diameter and that it has that loooong throat or I'd try that Saeco bullet. It's a very accurate bullet. Joe


The Swedes were chambered for military use...... they used a 156 gr. RN jacketed bullet. The throat was for that bullet, with deep rifling with some relief, just as several other governments did in that time period. You go with whats given in this caliber and make allowances for it.

Almost everything has been posted on how to make this run, if you take the time to read my back posts on accuracy and the 6.5 Swede. The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.

[rummy64]

Joe,
Sorry it took so long to get back. I had to run last nite before you replied.
I've got it now! I had no idea that there was so much room in the chamber of these gun. The Swedes took a great deal of pride in these guns. And of my military guns, this one seems the best made. I knew that the actions had to be sloppy in military guns to allow them to work in sand, mud, etc.
My particular gun is a husky that's been sporterized. They did a pretty nice job on it.
And by the way, it shot pretty well yesterday. Unfortunately (as I suspected) the old Tasco scope on it was junk! Some how the gun grouped, but I couldn't get the thing to focus. So instead of a nice round circle, I was shooting at a blob on the paper. Needless to say, after I'm done licking my wounds from x-mas, I'll be scope shoping.
Your tricks for this load aren't anything I'm ready to try(yet). But I apreciate you posting them, as I'm finding it pretty fascinating to learn about this stuff!

[StarMetal]

Joe,
Sorry it took so long to get back. I had to run last nite before you replied.
I've got it now! I had no idea that there was so much room in the chamber of these gun. The Swedes took a great deal of pride in these guns. And of my military guns, this one seems the best made. I knew that the actions had to be sloppy in military guns to allow them to work in sand, mud, etc.
My particular gun is a husky that's been sporterized. They did a pretty nice job on it.
And by the way, it shot pretty well yesterday. Unfortunately (as I suspected) the old Tasco scope on it was junk! Some how the gun grouped, but I couldn't get the thing to focus. So instead of a nice round circle, I was shooting at a blob on the paper. Needless to say, after I'm done licking my wounds from x-mas, I'll be scope shoping.
Your tricks for this load aren't anything I'm ready to try(yet). But I apreciate you posting them, as I'm finding it pretty fascinating to learn about this stuff!

Well it's not that the Swedes are sloppy, they aren't. I think the actions are pretty tight for a military. The chambers aren't all that huge or sloppy, it's just that the neck area is, let's say, a little generous.

I'd like to see you get a new scope on that rifle. Sounds like you can get it shooting.

Joe

[rummy64]

Thanks! The gun is probably more capable of a shooter than I am. I'm hoping to get a chance to use it on woodchuchs with some light boolits this summer. I definitely want to work up a good deer load for it too. I live in town, and therefore belong to a local rifle range.
So I'm limited to 200m. But I'm going to work on getting it dialed in to that distance.
The bore was not as clean as I thought it was. I got a lot of **** out of it when I cleaned it.
I'm guessing the accuracy will improve with a cleaner bore. Not that I was dissapionted in it to begin with!:D

[StarMetal]

Thanks! The gun is probably more capable of a shooter than I am. I'm hoping to get a chance to use it on woodchuchs with some light boolits this summer. I definitely want to work up a good deer load for it too. I live in town, and therefore belong to a local rifle range.
So I'm limited to 200m. But I'm going to work on getting it dialed in to that distance.
The bore was not as clean as I thought it was. I got a lot of **** out of it when I cleaned it.
I'm guessing the accuracy will improve with a cleaner bore. Not that I was dissapionted in it to begin with!:D

Practice will only make you better.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Almost everything has been posted on how to make this run, if you take the time to read my back posts on accuracy and the 6.5 Swede. The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you would care to cut through the chaff and say what the filler is (material, substance, etc. is all I'm asking)?

I do not claim to be an "expert" but I can measure pressure accurately in 2 different excellent condition 6.5 Swede milsurp barrels. One is original on my M38 and the other is with a new Swede replacement barrel on a SR Mexican M98. With the actual filler known I could conduct a series of tests to determine the pressures involved and how they climb. I could use several powders and different amounts of the filler.

If you don't want to post the info here a PM would do nicely. Thanks for the information and cooperation, it is very much appreciated.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

I am just hoping to find a load for my 260 Rem with Lyman's 266673 150 gr FN. The only other 6.5mm I have is the 6.5mm BR in both rifle and pistol for my Encore that I will also start to work with as soon as spring comes.

[StarMetal]

I am just hoping to find a load for my 260 Rem with Lyman's 266673 150 gr FN. The only other 6.5mm I have is the 6.5mm BR in both rifle and pistol for my Encore that I will also start to work with as soon as spring comes.

How does the nose of that bullet fit in your bore at the muzzle? Also what velocity are you wanting to shoot it at?

Joe

[cbrick]

The SAECO #264 140 gr 6.5 mentioned in this thead is an outstanding bullet. I bought this mould for a custom 6.5 BR XP that I had. Another really good boolit is the RCBS 140 GR 6.5. The main difference between the two is the length of the driving band bearing surface. The SAECO bearing surface is a bit longer and in the custom XP's short chamber had to be seated deeper (below the shoulder).

This is the SAECO, sorry . . . no photo of the RCBS but it is very similair.

http://www.lasc.us/SAECO264_6-5mm140gGC-9.jpg

Rick

[NHlever]

Well I had to look to make sure I posted that and I did, but will repeat it for you. The first mil dot under the normal crosshair. I'd estimate maybe a 2-3 inch drop in the bullet from the 100 yard setting. I was quite surprised how flat it shot. I'll have to work up a load with BaBore's remake of the Lyman 266469 and see what it does as it's a tad heavier and longer for a even higher BC then the Kurtz. Remember that Kurtz is pretty much a flat nose.

I knew I had something at the shot because the jug literally exploded and kind of disappeared at the shot. I was expecting to see slight movement and some water spray.

Joe

Let's see, with a ballistic coefficuient of .560, and a velocity of 3100 fps the bullet will drop 9.7 inches at 300 yards with a 100 yard zero. That is one monster cast boolit load you have there for sure. It's off my charts! That my friend is a secret worth keeping........ I don't need it anyway.

[Doc Highwall]

StarMetal, just got the mould I will be casting some soon so I will have time to work on the mould if I have too. Hopefully I will not have to lap it or beagle it to get the dimensions I need. I spent this year working on my 308 Win and got great results with it at 100-200 yards. I am going to do a little tweaking at 300 yards next year and should be done with it. This is a Browning 1885 Lowwall in 260 Rem that I am going to make the load for.

[StarMetal]

Let's see, with a ballistic coefficuient of .560, and a velocity of 3100 fps the bullet will drop 9.7 inches at 300 yards with a 100 yard zero. That is one monster cast boolit load you have there for sure. It's off my charts! That my friend is a secret worth keeping........ I don't need it anyway.

Well I'm positive my load doesn't shoot like the one you just described.

Joe

[StarMetal]

The SAECO #264 140 gr 6.5 mentioned in this thead is an outstanding bullet. I bought this mould for a custom 6.5 BR XP that I had. Another really good boolit is the RCBS 140 GR 6.5. The main difference between the two is the length of the driving band bearing surface. The SAECO bearing surface is a bit longer and in the custom XP's short chamber had to be seated deeper (below the shoulder).

This is the SAECO, sorry . . . no photo of the RCBS but it is very similair.

http://www.lasc.us/SAECO264_6-5mm140gGC-9.jpg

Rick

cbrick,

That Saeco is the only bullet that will fit my 6.5 Grendel. The freebore is about 1/16th inch. The nose on that Saeco just slides into my bore. It's as though it were made for the Grendel and it shoots just fantastic out of it.

Joe

[Doc Highwall]

StarMetal, what powder did you use in your 6.5mm BR and 6.5mm Grendel. Just trying to shorten the learning curve and not reinvent the wheel.

[StarMetal]

StarMetal, what powder did you use in your 6.5mm BR and 6.5mm Grendel. Just trying to shorten the learning curve and not reinvent the wheel.

Doc,

In the Swede I'm using 4350. The other cartridges are the 6.5 Grendel that I shoot it from my AR15, and the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur. I use H4198 in the 6.5 Grendel, and I use 4895 in the 6.5x54MS. I have a 260 Rem also and I use mostly 4895 in it. Soon as my supplier gets in some powders I'm going to be testing another powder.

Joe

[geargnasher]

45 2.1

Almost everything has been posted on how to make this run, if you take the time to read my back posts on accuracy and the 6.5 Swede. The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.

Perhaps you would care to cut through the chaff and say what the filler is (material, substance, etc. is all I'm asking)?

I do not claim to be an "expert" but I can measure pressure accurately in 2 different excellent condition 6.5 Swede milsurp barrels. One is original on my M38 and the other is with a new Swede replacement barrel on a SR Mexican M98. With the actual filler known I could conduct a series of tests to determine the pressures involved and how they climb. I could use several powders and different amounts of the filler.

If you don't want to post the info here a PM would do nicely. Thanks for the information and cooperation, it is very much appreciated.

Larry Gibson[/QUOTE]




--------------------------------------

Have I just managed to miss the reading, or has there been a distinct shortage of good, safe, published methods of filler use?

Sure, like many of you, I've dinked around with cornmeal/COW and Shotshell filler over a tamped cotton tuft when using mild Unique loads in cavernous .45/70 cases and .30-30 and many others with cast, but when it comes to bottlenecked cases and higher charges of slow powders, (where one can really get into deep poo quickly with pressure), research either isn't happening with qualified folks or they aren't talking/writing.

I am to the point of experimenting with filler in .30-'06, 270, and the Swede trying to get decent accuracy and huntable velocity/trajectory with SOFT boolits and SLOW powders, just seems I can't get there any other way, but I really don't want to make my bride a widow over a hobby. I've tried Dacron in the '06, but wasn't convinced that the amount I was using helped.

I'm convinced that longer pressure curves with slower powder and a nice shock absorber (filler) is the ticket for HV cast in most any rifle where one wants softer expandable boolits, plus ES (and thus accuracy) would surely be improved by the positive location of the powder charge in the case the same way it usually is with the faster powders.

Larry, if you or anyone else can shed some light on some guidelines for the use of granular fillers in bottleneck cartridges I would be eternally grateful.

Gear

BTW Joe, good shot on the jug. I only dream I could get fast enough with my Karlina to shoot that flat to 300. I can do it all day with J-words and the right brass, but so far not with cast.

[felix]

There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves. ... felix

[StarMetal]

[/I]

Perhaps you would care to cut through the chaff and say what the filler is (material, substance, etc. is all I'm asking)?

I do not claim to be an "expert" but I can measure pressure accurately in 2 different excellent condition 6.5 Swede milsurp barrels. One is original on my M38 and the other is with a new Swede replacement barrel on a SR Mexican M98. With the actual filler known I could conduct a series of tests to determine the pressures involved and how they climb. I could use several powders and different amounts of the filler.

If you don't want to post the info here a PM would do nicely. Thanks for the information and cooperation, it is very much appreciated.

Larry Gibson




--------------------------------------

Have I just managed to miss the reading, or has there been a distinct shortage of good, safe, published methods of filler use?

Sure, like many of you, I've dinked around with cornmeal/COW and Shotshell filler over a tamped cotton tuft when using mild Unique loads in cavernous .45/70 cases and .30-30 and many others with cast, but when it comes to bottlenecked cases and higher charges of slow powders, (where one can really get into deep poo quickly with pressure), research either isn't happening with qualified folks or they aren't talking/writing.

I am to the point of experimenting with filler in .30-'06, 270, and the Swede trying to get decent accuracy and huntable velocity/trajectory with SOFT boolits and SLOW powders, just seems I can't get there any other way, but I really don't want to make my bride a widow over a hobby. I've tried Dacron in the '06, but wasn't convinced that the amount I was using helped.

I'm convinced that longer pressure curves with slower powder and a nice shock absorber (filler) is the ticket for HV cast in most any rifle where one wants softer expandable boolits, plus ES (and thus accuracy) would surely be improved by the positive location of the powder charge in the case the same way it usually is with the faster powders.

Larry, if you or anyone else can shed some light on some guidelines for the use of granular fillers in bottleneck cartridges I would be eternally grateful.

Gear

BTW Joe, good shot on the jug. I only dream I could get fast enough with my Karlina to shoot that flat to 300. I can do it all day with J-words and the right brass, but so far not with cast.[/QUOTE]

Ian,

I have more then one rifle that shoots cast kind of like jacketed. Below is a picture of a five shot 300 yard group with my 6.5 Grendel AR15. This rifle too wears a Burris mil dot scope but the high power is 14.5. It too is also sighted in dead on at 100 yards. The bullet is the Saeco 140 grain and it too is moving about the same speed that the Kurtz does in my Swede. I set a big cardboard up with white papers on it with the aiming reference. Been a while back and I don't remember which mil dot I used for the group, but I'm thinking it two was the first one below the main cross hair. Before we get to the picture my 6.5x54MS has a load with the Kurtz that I'm shooting a tad faster then the load for the Swede. I only have a 3x9 scope on it, but I'm positive I can hit that jug with it as it's a pretty good shooter. I cut the group out of the cardboard for the Grendel and saved it. This is it below:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/7385Grendel300.jpg

This is nothing compared to what the boys on the Grendel forum are doing with jacketed and their Grendels beyond, way beyond, 300 yards.

Joe

[StarMetal]

There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves. ... felix

Felix,

Great write up. You hit the nail on the head. You have the figures down pretty pat too.

Joe

[geargnasher]

I've been playing the brass game for a while, for example my '06 has a tight but long neck for it's caliber and I use .270 brass and turn it a bit to achieve thinner and longer-necked brass. No potential catastrophies with the headstamp, either.

I just purchased a .308 sizing die to aid in reforming for the Swede, but so far haven't found it has added enough thickness with civilian brands to justify the tedious fireforming process with the small head brass. I have three boxes of old milsurp '06 brass from WWII, but haven't tried reforming those yet.

I'm no expert on fit, but I know how to cast a chamber and fit the brass to the gun within reason, and I usually get between .0013-.0009" loaded neck clearance when I'm done. Does marvels for accuracy.

I've played with powders enough to see I can't get there from here as far as lowering the pressure curve enough to shoot softer alloys very well in '06, .270, or the Swede. What I keep running into is ignition issues when using a slow enough powder to almost fill the case. Seems to be a catch-22 with good ignition versus too-high launch pressures. I'm thinking more of a medium-slow powder and a slightly compressed filler. I've also learned from the many posts here since joining how to heat-treat low-antimony alloy to be hard enough to "launch" well but soft enough to expand, and it's a very good idea which I have put to use, but I believe my results could be improved still.

My objective with granular fillers is take something that already works well with hard lead or J-words and make it work near the same with softer, hunting-grade alloys. Not everyone's tack on that objective, but it's something I haven't tried yet and I think it would work. Bob and others figured this out years ago, but I want to know how to do it safely.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Joe, thanks for the pics. There are folks in lots of places doing great things with accuracy and smallbore cast, most of them way ahead of me. I'm just trying to add one more technique to my bag of reloading tricks to enable me to do something, like for example make a better, more packable, lightweight 30-caliber rifle that can still hit hard, hit predictably, and hit long enough to take elk. Or make my .270 actually shoot well with cast (I believe my big problem there is the case volume is too much for the caliber). Or make either of my M96s shoot cast at any kind of useful speed. Stuffing the case is the only thing I can think of besides clearing out and starting over with calibers more ideal for cast (not that the '06 isn't, but maybe not the best choice).

Gear

[StarMetal]

I've been playing the brass game for a while, for example my '06 has a tight but long neck for it's caliber and I use .270 brass and turn it a bit to achieve thinner and longer-necked brass. No potential catastrophies with the headstamp, either.

I just purchased a .308 sizing die to aid in reforming for the Swede, but so far haven't found it has added enough thickness with civilian brands to justify the tedious fireforming process with the small head brass. I have three boxes of old milsurp '06 brass from WWII, but haven't tried reforming those yet.

I'm no expert on fit, but I know how to cast a chamber and fit the brass to the gun within reason, and I usually get between .0013-.0009" loaded neck clearance when I'm done. Does marvels for accuracy.

I've played with powders enough to see I can't get there from here as far as lowering the pressure curve enough to shoot softer alloys very well in '06, .270, or the Swede. I've learned from the many posts here since joining how to heat-treat low-antimony alloy to be hard enough to "launch" well but soft enough to expand, and it's a very good idea, but I believe my results could be improved still.

My objective with granular fillers is take something that already works well with hard lead or J-words and make it work near the same with softer, hunting-grade alloys. Not everyone's tack on that objective, but it's something I haven't tried yet and I think it would work. Bob and others figured this out years ago, but I want to know how to do it safely.

Gear

Ian,

I played with various dies in forming the 6.5x54MS out of 06 brass. The first one is a swaging down die I made to take the case head down to the Mannlicher's size. After that I tried a 308 sizer and it buckled the body, not the neck or shoulder because the swage die made the entire body skinnier then the interior of the 308 die. So I switched that out for the 7x57 mauser die. All I wanted to achieve in this step was push the shoulder back. After I accomplished that I ran them in the standard Mannlicher sizer die.
On the Swede I just formed them on Swede sizer die with no other steps. I use a Dremel cut off wheel to cut off the excess length so I don't have to trim as much on my trimmer. I found commercial cases didn't give me the thicker necks I wanted and to me that was amazing because some of the shoulder becomes the neck after forming. One would think the brass is much thicker then in the neck but apparently not.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Ian,

I played with various dies in forming the 6.5x54MS out of 06 brass. The first one is a swaging down die I made to take the case head down to the Mannlicher's size. After that I tried a 308 sizer and it buckled the body, not the neck or shoulder because the swage die made the entire body skinnier then the interior of the 308 die. So I switched that out for the 7x57 mauser die. All I wanted to achieve in this step was push the shoulder back. After I accomplished that I ran them in the standard Mannlicher sizer die.
On the Swede I just formed them on Swede sizer die with no other steps. I use a Dremel cut off wheel to cut off the excess length so I don't have to trim as much on my trimmer. I found commercial cases didn't give me the thicker necks I wanted and to me that was amazing because some of the shoulder becomes the neck after forming. One would think the brass is much thicker then in the neck but apparently not.

Joe

I don't have an MS yet, maybe someday if I'm lucky. Not to be confused withMS, which I sincerely hope I don't get!

I though the same thing about the '06 brass surely making super-thick Swede necks, thing is the body of the case actually draws up the neck, like hot cheese on a slice of pizza pie, while the shoulder is being set back. We end up with essentially the same thickness in our new neck as the original case was at that point in it's body. I have had better luck setting the shoulder back first, then squeezing down the neck to caliber, but that's just me. I have had a lot of problems with creases trying to do it in one step. I trim the fully -sized necks with a tubing cutter, Lee trim tool base, and a drill, finished off with a bushed 6.5X55 Lee trim guide and cutter (I need cases about .022" longer than SAAMI minimum to fit the one Swede I'm trying this on).

I used to think only br guys (one of which I used to be 15 years ago) dealt with precision case prep, then I started messing with cast in rifles and learned it ain't for half-wits if you want results. Now I've had to buy a few more case prep accesories. That's why I play mostly with pistols and cast nowdays, but some techniques still carry over: I get strange looks from folks at the range when they ask to see what I'm shooting and I hand them a .45 Colt round and they say "how'd you get that headstamp on a .44-40?" because evidently they never heard of neck-sizing to get an oversized-chamber revolver to shoot straight!

Gear

[45 2.1]

My objective with granular fillers is take something that already works well with hard lead or J-words and make it work near the same with softer, hunting-grade alloys. Not everyone's tack on that objective, but it's something I haven't tried yet and I think it would work. Bob and others figured this out years ago, but I want to know how to do it safely.

Gear

PM me.....................

[45 2.1]

There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves. ... felix

Well done Felix.....a very good synopsis of whats already been posted in detail many, many times.

[mike in co]

i have been watching this thread...cause i have not shot cast out of my swede yet, and......i have been collecting "shot" buffer for a while with intent to use it as a filler..if it helps and can be done safely in bottleneck cases......so keep it up..i'm listening

mike in co

[Jim]

......so keep it up..i'm listening. mike in co

Yeah, me too. I'm VERY interested to see where this thread's gonna go.

[longbow]

While I can't claim fantastic accuracy, so far I have found that filler is improving performance of my Lee Enfield No. 5 with cast boolits.

I know it is a controversial subject and there are pros and cons but I decided to try filler and so far am quite happy with it. My thoughts were to protect the base of the boolit, seal the bore and fill the cartridge so no chance of double charging with light loads.

Having said that, so far I have not used powder charges of less than half full cartridge so really, I am just ensuring 100% loading density.

In short, I was getting buckshot like groups at 50 yards even with "J" bullets. I slugged the bore and got 0.314" groove so lapped out my Lyman 314299 that cast at 0.312". The now better fit boolit helped improve accuracy. I also read several articles on using fillers so decided to try that. Here are two good articles on use of filler:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

So far, no problems with filler (mostly Cream 'O Wheat) and I am getting the same level of accuracy with plain base or GC boolits without GC over filler as I am using GC boolits and no filler.

I certainly don't have all the answers and am still working on loads and learning but I like what I see so far.

I would be interested in other's results and loads using fillers.

Longbow

[45 2.1]

"i have been collecting "shot" buffer for a while with intent to use it as a filler..if it helps and can be done safely in bottleneck cases......so keep it up..i'm listening"

"Yeah, me too. I'm VERY interested to see where this thread's gonna go."

"I would be interested in other's results and loads using fillers."

Some things to think about:
1. Case fillers reduce case capacity. What was a starting load in an unfillered case might, and probably will, become a maximum load in the reduced case capacity caused by the filler.
2. Fast powders shouldn't be used with filler.
3. Medium burning powders might not be a good choice for fillers either. Think narrow safe range here.
4. Slow burning powders work best. Think slow for the cartridge here.
5. There are quite a bunch of fillers out there. They DO NOT work the same and differ in their characteristics depending on how much they are compressed and how much is used. What you have and use is for it only. Don't think it applies across the board to other fillers.
6. Success and safety depend on you and your reloading technique, which BTW is completely different than what someone else's technique is.
7. Some natural grain/bran fillers absorb moisture from the powder itself and change the powders burning rate. This can be quite a surprise down the road after you've stored it properly and tried it out 8 months after you loaded it.
8. The compression of the filler can cause it to bridge and produce a lot more pressure if it is compressed too much from a light to heavy compression.
9. Case capacity changes the way fillers act and work. The technique for a smaller case capacity might not produce the wanted results in a case of larger capacity.

Now, how do you get around these pitfalls?
1. Pick a slow for the cartridge powder, one which is a single based powder. High nitroglycerine content does not help here at all.
2. Determine its safe starting load (there is data out there, Dupont used to show all its powders and pressures for quite a few jacketed loads which is excellent data BTW).
3. DO NOT go below 80% density with slow burning powder unless useing filler with which you have some history with. "Lets try this" can be a dangerous game here.
4. Use a strong rifle for this until you can determine the practice is safe for a lesser strength rifle (like the Swedes, Argentines etc.).
5. Heavy for caliber boolits help here.
6. Have some sense about what your doing. If the bolt handle lifts hard, you've went way to far. If it is weak sounding, your underloaded and that can cause many problems itself.
7. Fillers work well in a fairly narrow range of loads. What you choose determines what you'll end up with.
8. Finding that happy midroad load to experiment with, for the powder and setup your trying can be difficult to find at the start.

[StarMetal]

Well finally I broke the ice. Now we're talking about doing things with the Swede and some even at high velocity. Just think, the other day a moderator got snotty with me threatening to close this thread...which he may still do out of spite.

I'm going to tell you just don't go filling your cases with buffer or you will run into big trouble. You need to know and understand what you are doing.

Maybe a light is coming in some of your heads. The name of the game is for buffer is cushioning and keep the heat off the bullet.

Joe

[Jim]

..... these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing.... felix

Not only true, but wise on the part of the posting experienced loader. However, without hard data, I'm where the original poster was before he learned what is being discussed.
I'm not exactly new to this game of casting and handloading, but I AM new to getting a 6.5 Swede to shoot cast boolits over MACH II. Without the data that was established to achieve this feat, I have no choice but to experiment until I either find the answer or give up from repeated failure.

Refering back to Felix's statement, if you're not willing to post the data on the forum, would you be willing to PM it on request? The other side of that, however, is, if things go south in my attempt to replicate your results by using your data, what's the difference between it happening to me versus a lurker that you don't know or never see?

Fellas, I swear on my Father's name, I'm not trying to start something here. I'm just thinking out loud. If I developed data that could be potentially dangerous, I'd have my reservations about mentioning it at all, never mind sharing it. As God in Heaven is my witness, there are things I have done and some things I still do that I would NEVER tell anybody about for that very reason. "My husband's in the emergency room with only two fingers left on his right hand because you said.....".

Put the gun down. I didn't mean this the way you think I did.

[StarMetal]

Don't try it on what you think you know. Many here think because they've tried just about every filler known to man that what can happen besides a bulged barrel. Well a lot more, let me tell you. How can I tell you, it's like explosives..if you don't put the explosive in the right exact place it won't do much but go boom. But in the right place it's deadly. Same with the filler. You can get away with doing it this way and that way nothing extraordinary happens. But if you do it exactly right...bingo.

Joe

[swheeler]

I think I remember seeing many, hundreds maybe, of loads using Grex as filler in Cast Pics R&D in bottleneck cases by Buckshot. I still have a partial bag of PSB from Midway tucked away somewhere.

[Dutchman]

Almost everything has been posted on how to make this run, if you take the time to read my back posts on accuracy and the 6.5 Swede.

That's not quite as easy to do as it is to say. Using the search function in a forum like this with a gazillion (or gigazillion) posts to wade through just doesn't cut it when the message has been a bit cryptic. My initial note in this thread reflected the frustration of the cryptic nature of it all. It wasn't what you thought :).

However, it seems today the secret is a lot less of a secret and I understand far better why...


The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.

Your hesitancy to get into this is now understood. Thanks for that.

And thanks to Felix....

There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves.


This was the most important part of what you said, Felix:

...because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing.

And I highly respect the caution behind it. I've done the same thing on other handloading issues for the exact same reason.

Where 45 2.1 said:

4. Use a strong rifle for this until you can determine the practice is safe for a lesser strength rifle (like the Swedes, Argentines etc.).

This was really the root of my concern. When you talk 6.5x55 it may be assumed that you're also talking about the m/1896 Swedish Mauser. It would be an automatic assumption as the two just go together like bread & butter. I'm very glad to see here that you make the distinction. I kinda wish you'd make it #1 instead of #4 though :).

There are two areas in the vintage rifle world that I've taken on as personal crusades. 1- m/1896 Swedish Mauser safety and to promulgate continued stewardship in the study, research and use.
2- m/1889 Swedish rolling block 8x58R Danish to safeguard limits of safe and prudent handloading and use, moreso than study & research on this one as safety takes priority especially concerning new owners and shooters in their seeking out information as their search most often leads them into areas of incorrect information... that could be fatal.

So, in summary: What you're doing with high velocity (relative term) with cast bullets in the 6.5x55 (not exclusive to the Swedish Mauser) is you're walking a very narrow corridor from Point A to Point B with very little room for error. Small errors in a small ring pre-98 Mauser can, and do often, result in catastrophic failures of the receiver and/or bolt and/or barrel. These failures can also, sometimes, kill the shooter when the receiver grenades. Your hesitation to post an Alpha-Omega instruction guide is hereby understood. Thank you for that. I may now wave off potential experimenters when I'm asked about this practice with the m/96 Swede. Indeed, it should be something done only with experience and a 98 action in the least.

Dutch

[Jim]

Joe, I got your PM. Thanks, but I think I'll pass.
Shoot safely.

[StarMetal]

That's not quite as easy to do as it is to say. Using the search function in a forum like this with a gazillion (or gigazillion) posts to wade through just doesn't cut it when the message has been a bit cryptic. My initial note in this thread reflected the frustration of the cryptic nature of it all. It wasn't what you thought :).

However, it seems today the secret is a lot less of a secret and I understand far better why...



Your hesitancy to get into this is now understood. Thanks for that.

And thanks to Felix....



This was the most important part of what you said, Felix:


And I highly respect the caution behind it. I've done the same thing on other handloading issues for the exact same reason.

Where 45 2.1 said:


This was really the root of my concern. When you talk 6.5x55 it may be assumed that you're also talking about the m/1896 Swedish Mauser. It would be an automatic assumption as the two just go together like bread & butter. I'm very glad to see here that you make the distinction. I kinda wish you'd make it #1 instead of #4 though :).

There are two areas in the vintage rifle world that I've taken on as personal crusades. 1- m/1896 Swedish Mauser safety and to promulgate continued stewardship in the study, research and use.
2- m/1889 Swedish rolling block 8x58R Danish to safeguard limits of safe and prudent handloading and use, moreso than study & research on this one as safety takes priority especially concerning new owners and shooters in their seeking out information as their search most often leads them into areas of incorrect information... that could be fatal.

So, in summary: What you're doing with high velocity (relative term) with cast bullets in the 6.5x55 (not exclusive to the Swedish Mauser) is you're walking a very narrow corridor from Point A to Point B with very little room for error. Small errors in a small ring pre-98 Mauser can, and do often, result in catastrophic failures of the receiver and/or bolt and/or barrel. These failures can also, sometimes, kill the shooter when the receiver grenades. Your hesitation to post an Alpha-Omega instruction guide is hereby understood. Thank you for that. I may now wave off potential experimenters when I'm asked about this practice with the m/96 Swede. Indeed, it should be something done only with experience and a 98 action in the least.

Dutch

You're overrating it Dutch. Yeah it can get you into trouble. What 45 2.1 meant was if you know nothing about it and are going to dive into it, practice on a strong action. It will tell you when you over stepped the limits. A lessor action may not. Now with that out of the way to say you are walking a thin line using it...BALONEY. Both myself, 45 2.1, and others have been blasting away with this technique with many different rifles and calibers. Like I've said before in another post you take your life in your hands everytime you fire a reload you loaded, so in my opinion the technique done correctly (as reloads should be done correctly...no??) it's no more dangerous then a proper reload or factory round. Don't make it sound like a Cobra charmer.

Joe

[NHlever]

There have been long, and pretty detailed articles in reputable magazines / books about using super grex, etc. for fillers. I would find one of those articles before proceeding too far. The "Cast Bullet Annual" that was published some time ago is one. There were three of the annuals published if I remember correctly, and one of them had quite a bit of info on fillers.

[Dutchman]

You're overrating it Dutch. Yeah it can get you into trouble. What 45 2.1 meant was if you know nothing about it and are going to dive into it, practice on a strong action. It will tell you when you over stepped the limits. A lessor action may not. Now with that out of the way to say you are walking a thin line using it...BALONEY. Both myself, 45 2.1, and others have been blasting away with this technique with many different rifles and calibers. Like I've said before in another post you take your life in your hands everytime you fire a reload you loaded, so in my opinion the technique done correctly (as reloads should be done correctly...no??) it's no more dangerous then a proper reload or factory round. Don't make it sound like a Cobra charmer.

Joe


I'm having mind transference with this topic that you can't appreciate because you're not here. Its the failure of a typed word to translate the entire thought.

Think of it as if we were talking about young sweet tender 21 year old wimmin and the inherent dangers of inadvertent baby making. It can either be lots of fun or a lifetime of misery.

Apparently you've never known one of those innocent [looking] sweet Catholic school girls who could charm the cobra?

How do you tell a Catholic nun and a Hollywood Blvd. hooker apart?

(if the Catholic nun is on Hollywood Blvd at night she's a hooker)


Dutch

[45 2.1]

So, in summary: What you're doing with high velocity (relative term) with cast bullets in the 6.5x55 (not exclusive to the Swedish Mauser) is you're walking a very narrow corridor from Point A to Point B with very little room for error. Dutch

Not exactly like that, kinda akin to walking down a viking knarr versus a U.S. destroyer (you can still fall into the sea on either one though). A lot less room to walk in, but your not going thru fat mans squeeze in a cave either. Done within resonable limits, it's quite easy (and safe) to do....... if one follows directions (which few people seldom do). Felix described the problem quite well.

I've made the offer several times to actually teach someone to do this safely, one on one, but most people here seem to proud to do that. Several have though. It requires you know how to safely experiment with the proper components. Just like going to school to learn something you didn't know.

[PAT303]

Well my next step with both my 6.5 and 25/303 was to use fillers,I have a bottle of Puff-Lon to try with AR 2209 powder,sold in the states as Hodgden 4350,I have already had success with slower powders,AR2217(Hodgden H1000) simply by filling the case up to the top and seating a 225grn boolit over it in my 303's and it does work,the recoil is toey though.Reading through the Puff-Lon website they actually say to use slower powders with reduced loads and fill the case totally full.Just a question,what causes the danger?,does trying to squeeze the filler through the neck spike pressures?,I really do agree that slow is better in regards to that.Joe I'm glad you have posted this up,the trouble with the internet we can only talk with words,not face to face. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

I've made the offer several times to actually teach someone to do this safely, one on one, but most people here seem to proud to do that. Several have though. It requires you know how to safely experiment with the proper components. Just like going to school to learn something you didn't know.

So I'm not too proud at all. I am quite willing to take the lessons and and I do know how to safely experiment given the proper componants. I also can measure the psi including a visual of the time/pressure curve via the Oehler M43. I've a very good milsurp M38 barrel in a Mexican SR M98 action that is very accurate all set up for the M43. I would really like to hear from you either here or via PM. I believe we, by working together, can confirm your work in this area with hard data. Everyone here may then know of the real psi dangers exhistant or not. I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Larry Gibson

[longbow]

I would very much like to learn what other people have tried with fillers and what their results were.

I have been using fillers for about 3 years so far with positive results, or at least positive results in my view and no negative results. I am certainly no expert though.

I am sure there are many reasons that people want to use fillers. 100% loading density is one good reason and I have read many comments stating if you want 100% loading density then use a case full of slow burning powder.

True enough but that doesn't address reduced loads. Not everyone wants to shoot full loads all the time.

Also, if the powder is slow burning then wouldn't it act as its own granular filler with unburned powder being rammed past the shoulder and through the neck? I doubt the slow powders completely burn in the cartridge and if that is true then they are no more than a granular filler as the unburned powder exits the cartridge to burn on its way down the barrel.

Another comment was to use black powder as filler but again, if the charge is not completely consumed in the cartridge then the black powder would be an awful lot like COW or other granular fillers as it was compressed going through the shoulder and neck then burning further down the barrel.

Correct me if I am mistaken here.

All in all, I suspect that if there was a lot of friction involved in extruding the filler past the shoulder then brass would stretch at an alarming rate and I haven't seen that.

I welcome corrections, comments ~ or best more information.

Longbow

[swheeler]

I'm still trying to figure out how that 130gr flatnosed lovern style bullet @2300 fps shoots flatter than my 140 gr Hornady spire point@ almost 3200 fps! puzzled

[Tazman1602]

I'm just posting 'cause I'm a Swede Mauser guy and I want to see where it's going. I still have a few of these from the day.

Art

[StarMetal]

Well my next step with both my 6.5 and 25/303 was to use fillers,I have a bottle of Puff-Lon to try with AR 2209 powder,sold in the states as Hodgden 4350,I have already had success with slower powders,AR2217(Hodgden H1000) simply by filling the case up to the top and seating a 225grn boolit over it in my 303's and it does work,the recoil is toey though.Reading through the Puff-Lon website they actually say to use slower powders with reduced loads and fill the case totally full.That sir is the wrong use of the filler. Just a question,what causes the danger?,does trying to squeeze the filler through the neck spike pressures?,I really do agree that slow is better in regards to that.Joe I'm glad you have posted this up,the trouble with the internet we can only talk with words,not face to face. Pat

That's exactly one of the things we don't want to see the reloader do and I'm quite unhappy that it was mentioned. To all who will attempt this procedure behind the scenes, please do not just fill your case up entirely with filler.

To answer your question just what is the danger? For one the filler reduces the capacity of the case. What might be a real mild load of a certain type of powder in the case without any filler, can be a magnum load with the filler. Think to the powder is not only pushing the bullet it's pushing the filler. You're on track with pushing the filler through the bottle neck too.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I'm still trying to figure out how that 130gr flatnosed lovern style bullet @2300 fps shoots flatter than my 140 gr Hornady spire point@ almost 3200 fps! puzzled

Scot,

Next time out I'll shoot at 100 yards first using the normal crosshairs, then I'll shoot the next group using the first mil dot down and give you the measurement between the two. My bullet is definitely not shooting flatter then your spire point. All said in order to hit right above that bull on the jug at 300 yards I only had to use that mil dot. The rifle is sighted in dead center bull at 100 yards.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I would very much like to learn what other people have tried with fillers and what their results were.

I have been using fillers for about 3 years so far with positive results, or at least positive results in my view and no negative results. I am certainly no expert though.

I am sure there are many reasons that people want to use fillers. 100% loading density is one good reason and I have read many comments stating if you want 100% loading density then use a case full of slow burning powder.

True enough but that doesn't address reduced loads. Not everyone wants to shoot full loads all the time.

Also, if the powder is slow burning then wouldn't it act as its own granular filler with unburned powder being rammed past the shoulder and through the neck? I doubt the slow powders completely burn in the cartridge and if that is true then they are no more than a granular filler as the unburned powder exits the cartridge to burn on its way down the barrel.

Another comment was to use black powder as filler but again, if the charge is not completely consumed in the cartridge then the black powder would be an awful lot like COW or other granular fillers as it was compressed going through the shoulder and neck then burning further down the barrel.

Correct me if I am mistaken here.

All in all, I suspect that if there was a lot of friction involved in extruding the filler past the shoulder then brass would stretch at an alarming rate and I haven't seen that.

I welcome corrections, comments ~ or best more information.

Longbow

I don't believe slow powders burn completey in the case. I doubt not many powders do.

You asked about the slow burning powder acting like a filler. No, not like the filler we use. It lacks keeping the heat off the bullet and lacks the cushioning.

Joe

[Tazman1602]

You're overrating it Dutch. Yeah it can get you into trouble. What 45 2.1 meant was if you know nothing about it and are going to dive into it, practice on a strong action. It will tell you when you over stepped the limits. A lessor action may not. Now with that out of the way to say you are walking a thin line using it...BALONEY. Both myself, 45 2.1, and others have been blasting away with this technique with many different rifles and calibers. Like I've said before in another post you take your life in your hands everytime you fire a reload you loaded, so in my opinion the technique done correctly (as reloads should be done correctly...no??) it's no more dangerous then a proper reload or factory round. Don't make it sound like a Cobra charmer.

Joe

Ditto. If you have a GOOD quality Swede Action (Gustaf's etc...) it will take an AMAZING amount of pressure before it goes "boom". And that's ALL I'm going to say on the subject 'cause I know a LOT about these actions.................

Art

PS -- Got a Mex 1910 SR in .308...........................................

[303Guy]

HOLY C .... Ummmm..... MOLY! I just turned my back for a few days and .... !

Fun and interesting thread, Joe!

(My interest in the Swede is that I think it is a great caliber!)


Think to the powder is not only pushing the bullet it's pushing the filler ...I use cotton wool balls as a bore cleaner (as well as a filler) and what happens is the stuff compacts and increases resistance some - a lot, actually. Might be a factor? As for taking up case volume. Not sure since there is a lot of free space between the fibres. Just how tightly is the stuff being packed?

I only use a filler when the expected pressure is lower than starting loads (or at least a lot lower than max!) Careful consideration is given. (The 25-303 would have similar proportions to the Swede, I think). To me the bad about cotton filler is the fire hazzard!

[swheeler]

Scot,

Next time out I'll shoot at 100 yards first using the normal crosshairs, then I'll shoot the next group using the first mil dot down and give you the measurement between the two. My bullet is definitely not shooting flatter then your spire point. All said in order to hit right above that bull on the jug at 300 yards I only had to use that mil dot. The rifle is sighted in dead center bull at 100 yards.

Joe

Let us know where the bullet strikes at 100 yds when using the first dot. It would be interesting to know the 300 yd velocity too, now DON'T shoot your chrony! I know on 270 win with 150 Speer at just under 2850 I had to use the second dot under the crosshair, scope on 9x(highest setting) for 300 yd hits on gong. All I can say is that is fine shooting, and at 221,000 rpm ta boot! RPM threshold, what threshold! These HV, fast twist Swede threads sure are interesting, keep it coming! Scot

[StarMetal]

Let us know where the bullet strikes at 100 yds when using the first dot. It would be interesting to know the 300 yd velocity too, now DON'T shoot your chrony! I know on 270 win with 150 Speer at just under 2850 I had to use the second dot under the crosshair, scope on 9x(highest setting) for 300 yd hits on gong. All I can say is that is fine shooting, and at 221,000 rpm ta boot! RPM threshold, what threshold! These HV, fast twist Swede threads sure are interesting, keep it coming! Scot

Gosh! I better not hit my chronograph after shooting all the small groups. Be my luck of the draw thought. Will have to wait a little while as some really cold nasty weather is here. The forecast doesn't look good but I'll get her done.

Joe

[swheeler]

We're -2 right now and looks like a little powder for the new year, keep the fires stoked.

[PAT303]

That's exactly one of the things we don't want to see the reloader do and I'm quite unhappy that it was mentioned. To all who will attempt this procedure behind the scenes, please do not just fill your case up entirely with filler.

To answer your question just what is the danger? For one the filler reduces the capacity of the case. What might be a real mild load of a certain type of powder in the case without any filler, can be a magnum load with the filler. Think to the powder is not only pushing the bullet it's pushing the filler. You're on track with pushing the filler through the bottle neck too.

Joe

Joe,can you see the problem?.On the Puff-Lon site they have in writing that you MUST fill the case so there is no air gaps,you say we shouldn't,can you see now why people are getting fed up with this.People will try fillers regardless,I was long before the swede threads started and will follow the manufactures instructions,if they are wrong and you are right which way do people go?.I'm after a 200m field rifle load,nothing more. Pat

[Doc Highwall]

StarMetal, if you are using one mil dot below the crosshair that equals a 10.8" drop from 100 yards or 3.43 min of angle drop.

[longbow]

Joe:

I agree that a slow powder would be somewhat different than a granular filler that packs as the powder is likely more dense and wouldn't pack as solid to seal and keep heat and gas pressure off the boolit base.

However, I do think it would pesent a similar resistance in compressing at the shoulder and squeezing through the neck. Might flow a little better due to large hard "granules" or might compress into a pretty solid lump, hard to say since one can't watch.

The puffy fibrous fillers would be a whole different ball game as they would hold the powder in place at the head of the cartridge but provide room for gas expansion as they compress where a granular filler is effectively removing more case volume so will increase pressure through both reduced volume and extruding filler through the neck.

Also, I have to say that my filler loads have been limited to straight wall cases and .303 British which has a pretty mild shoulder and relatively large neck when compared to 6.5's.

I am not trying to hijack the thread here as I am interested in the 6.5 Swede results and how you get them. We just got onto the filler subject and I am interested and looking to learn. There is a wealth of information in the member's heads here and I am all ears!

Anyway, this is interesting and I hope the info keeps coming!

Longbow

[Bret4207]

Well finally I broke the ice. Now we're talking about doing things with the Swede and some even at high velocity. Just think, the other day a moderator got snotty with me threatening to close this thread...which he may still do out of spite.

Joe


That doesn't help things Joe, leave it alone. You have the floor, use your time wisely.

[StarMetal]

Joe,can you see the problem?.On the Puff-Lon site they have in writing that you MUST fill the case so there is no air gaps,you say we shouldn't,can you see now why people are getting fed up with this.People will try fillers regardless,I was long before the swede threads started and will follow the manufactures instructions,if they are wrong and you are right which way do people go?.I'm after a 200m field rifle load,nothing more. Pat

Think about that Pat. Is there a situation where you can seat the bullet and there's still not an air space? Take it another direction. Fill the case with you Puff-Lon and you're telling me the bullet is just setting atop it? What's gripping the bullet? I'll let you think on that and you post back and tell me what you think.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Some interesting information. I have some clear plastic vials. I put some 860 ball powder in one and the very coarse 5010 in the other. I then topped those with a shot buffer. Then I proceeded to vibrate and tap them. Purpose of the test was to see if the buffer migrated the coarser powder. This question came up among my peers. The results is that it did not, not even in the slightest.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I don't believe slow powders burn completey in the case. I doubt not many powders do.

You asked about the slow burning powder acting like a filler. No, not like the filler we use. It lacks keeping the heat off the bullet and lacks the cushioning.

Joe


People would be astounded if they ever saw actual powder burn rates in popular length barrels with common loadings. And if it ain't in the case or up the pipe, then it went down range somewhere which means she was burning or attempting to burn the whole way.

I think that full cases of powder do have certain characteristics that act like filler. And as a result I often get good enough results, especially in warmer weather where lube is used up better and remains softer what is left behind.

And with the proper speed powders, my velocities don't change filler or not. That's how I know what the proper powder speed is. As a result, barrel length gives you more powder options too.

Not all filler is the same. The filler I use removes fouling and leaves a stable bore condition for each bullet coming after it. Well, up and until you pass it's capability. Filler isn't an open ended cure all as you do still have to think, compensate, and still deal with limits. Don't cry if your first attempt fails before 4000 fps.

Another advantage is in cold temperatures as it minimizes left over lube in the bore as frozen fouling is harder for a bullet to deal with. It does help in hunting season for me for that first shot that might be a week since you fired the fouling shot before season opened and now you are below freezing. I know people say to thin lube, but they still stiffen dramatically.

A stable bore condition is how I get to the promised land. And a light coat of relaid plastic lube can prevent metal to metal friction too. Sorta like slightly harder Carnauba.

[StarMetal]

People would be astounded if they ever saw actual powder burn rates in popular length barrels with common loadings. And if it ain't in the case or up the pipe, then it went down range somewhere which means she was burning or attempting to burn the whole way.

I think that full cases of powder do have certain characteristics that act like filler. And as a result I often get good enough results, especially in warmer weather where lube is used up better and remains softer what is left behind.

And with the proper speed powders, my velocities don't change filler or not. That's how I know what the proper powder speed is. As a result, barrel length gives you more powder options too.

Not all filler is the same. The filler I use removes fouling and leaves a stable bore condition for each bullet coming after it. Well, up and until you pass it's capability. Filler isn't an open ended cure all as you do still have to think, compensate, and still deal with limits. Don't cry if your first attempt fails before 4000 fps.

Another advantage is in cold temperatures as it minimizes left over lube in the bore as frozen fouling is harder for a bullet to deal with. It does help in hunting season for me for that first shot that might be a week since you fired the fouling shot before season opened and now you are below freezing. I know people say to thin lube, but they still stiffen dramatically.

A stable bore condition is how I get to the promised land. And a light coat of relaid plastic lube can prevent metal to metal friction too. Sorta like slightly harder Carnauba.

Bass,

I know lube is of interest to you and your tough testing of it really circles around cold weather use. One of my peers has been pushing me about my soap lube in cold temps. Well finally winter is here in TN and it's cold. I have been out doing some limited shooting with three different rifles and can happily report that so far the lube is holding up just dandy in cold weather...so far. I'll see what it does when it gets extremely cold.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

I know lube is of interest to you and your tough testing of it really circles around cold weather use. One of my peers has been pushing me about my soap lube in cold temps. Well finally winter is here in TN and it's cold. I have been out doing some limited shooting with three different rifles and can happily report that so far the lube is holding up just dandy in cold weather...so far. I'll see what it does when it gets extremely cold.

Joe


Soap might work with filler especially. But I do know that beeswax and petroleum products as well as most of the common additives thicken or freeze. Fat does too. I got stuck cleaning the freezer this year before season for that trial run.

People often misunderstand my criticism of lubes in cold weather. It's strictly for the first shot of which may be out there a ways. Many lubes will work well after the barrel has been warmed. And if you are shooting low velocities and harder than you need slugs, lube is less of an issue to observe what I test for.

Let's see what soap does. But I gotta tell ya that I've thrown a bar or two (along with the fat) in the freezer since you told me and I wasn't impressed enough to try it. So go for it.

Look, my test load for lube is my 150 grain LBT, 56 grains of RL19 in the 06 at 2600 fps. Above 80 degrees without filler it shoots like a champ. By 50 degrees it's a pie plate killer without filler. Add .5cc of ol #47 and back she comes down to about 10 and then things turn again. So that is what I have been testing lubes with to set my standards. I set the gun and ammo out for at least an hour and then shoot 1 hour between shots for group.

Not telling you how to do it or what to use. Just explaining to folks that think I am too far out there already so they will understand.

[StarMetal]

Soap might work with filler especially. But I do know that beeswax and petroleum products as well as most of the common additives thicken or freeze. Fat does too. I got stuck cleaning the freezer this year before season for that trial run.

People often misunderstand my criticism of lubes in cold weather. It's strictly for the first shot of which may be out there a ways. Many lubes will work well after the barrel has been warmed. And if you are shooting low velocities and harder than you need slugs, lube is less of an issue to observe what I test for.

Let's see what soap does. But I gotta tell ya that I've thrown a bar or two (along with the fat) in the freezer since you told me and I wasn't impressed enough to try it. So go for it.

Look, my test load for lube is my 150 grain LBT, 56 grains of RL19 in the 06 at 2600 fps. Above 80 degrees without filler it shoots like a champ. By 50 degrees it's a pie plate killer without filler. Add .5cc of ol #47 and back she comes down to about 10 and then things turn again. So that is what I have been testing lubes with to set my standards. I set the gun and ammo out for at least an hour and then shoot 1 hour between shots for group.

Not telling you how to do it or what to use. Just explaining to folks that think I am too far out there already so they will understand.

Bass,

First off you can freeze anything and make it hard if it's cold enough. Now for you test. I think my concoction of Ivory soap, beeswax, and Castor oil, especially after it's been cooked, is a different thing entirely they you just freezing soap. I'm about ready to make another batch and I'll have to send you some. I'm also thinking, since I have the ingredients, of making the soap lube but substituting the beeswas with micro crystalline wax.

Bass look at this link: http://www.starbrite.com/productdetail.cfm?ID=1451&ProductCat=Lubricants%20%26%20Greases%20%26%20Spec ialty%20Oils&ProductSCat=PTFE%20%26%20specialty%20Lubes&ProductSSCat=

Notice the temperature rating of the grease. Also isn't the name ironic?? [smilie=s:

Joe

[StarMetal]

Bass,

One more: http://www.polysi.com/dow%20corning%20msds%20sheets/DC%20Tech%20&%20MSDS%20Sheets/DC%20GREASES%20TECH%20SHEETS/DC%2033%20M.pdf

notice the temperatures in the chart and also notice that most of those are lithium soaps.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, the lube here is the Phenylmethyl silicone oil, not the lithium soap. The latter is for the viscosity required to hold that oil to such things as plastic parts without decomposing those parts over time. Our torque requirements are severe and require no shelf life, making the lube as shown more appropriate for what it is designed to do. ... felix

[longbow]

Coincidentally, I just made up a batch of lube using paraffin wax, Ivory soap and Lucas Red & Sticky Grease. Would have used beeswax if I had any but was impatient.

It turned out quite well and is really slick though quite firm (started out a little too soft so I added more wax). I haven't done a lot of testing yet but so far no leading.

Will be doing more testing in .44 and .303 Brit shortly.

Longbow

[StarMetal]

I apologize for this thread getting off topic. If you fellows want to talk more lube we can take it to a lube thread.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, try one of these with some low melt microwax. It should solve your and BA's cold weather shoots. ... felix

http://www.clearcoproducts.com/paintable_silicone_lub.html

[StarMetal]

Joe, try one of these with some low melt microwax. It should solve your and BA's cold weather shoots. ... felix

http://www.clearcoproducts.com/paintable_silicone_lub.html


Thanks for the link Felix. So far I don't have a cold weather problem. I'm still testing too. Another this too Felix, I don't have that first shot out of the group with my lube. That is with the barrel fouled already and the rifle set for days. Doesn't seem to matter, at least in my Swede and Mannlicher.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

One more: http://www.polysi.com/dow%20corning%20msds%20sheets/DC%20Tech%20&%20MSDS%20Sheets/DC%20GREASES%20TECH%20SHEETS/DC%2033%20M.pdf

notice the temperatures in the chart and also notice that most of those are lithium soaps.

Joe


Yea. I tried some of this. (not straight) It's in my 2nd Lyman lubrisizer set up for 35s at this point in time. (?) But I will tell you that it is a long way from something that needs lubrication in the cold and that of an accelerating slug pushing stuff ahead of it in a confined area that will NOT compress that it ultimately must pass. Kind of affects the holding of bore center don't you think?

Yea, this thread may at first appear to be off topic, but lube and bullet design which hasn't even been discussed yet enters into this for high velocity just as much as filler does. I have minimized fouling with bullet design too where filler only is needed for protection against obturation forces.

I applaud this effort. But I guess the question is, how do you separate the discussion of high velocity, which is what this is really about, by just discussing a single variable? Considering the time of year that it is and what people have to deal with, everyone is excited now and I guarantee that somebody is out there banging today. And they are still going to achieve varied results and blame it on filler failure or BS? HV in cold weather is the toughest thing for me.

I think the total package must be considered, but it is your thread and you are teaching so you drive the train. Just figured that some folks might now have wondered why some designs have clean out grooves or standard grooves clear up to the nose? :grin:

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

One more: http://www.polysi.com/dow%20corning%20msds%20sheets/DC%20Tech%20&%20MSDS%20Sheets/DC%20GREASES%20TECH%20SHEETS/DC%2033%20M.pdf

notice the temperatures in the chart and also notice that most of those are lithium soaps.

Joe


Yea. I tried some of this. (not straight though) (smells like Kacha) It's in my 2nd Lyman lubrisizer set up for 35s at this point in time. (?) But I will tell you that it is a long way from something that needs lubrication in the cold and that of an accelerating soft slug pushing stuff ahead of it in a confined area that will NOT compress and that it ultimately might have to pass.

Some barrels require the total package and then still others won't be able to meet certain levels. My new 16 twist, 35 Whelen is one of these as it leads at 1100 fps the ***. That is no typo either. But I still have the other one .... and my 35 Remmie. :grin:

I applaud this effort. Considering the time of year that it is and what people have to deal with, everyone is excited now and I guarantee that somebody is out there banging in the cold today. The result is going to be a verdict on Joe as much as the filler. :grin:

Hope some folks are encouraged.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

Well we know what the cold does to powder combustion and possibly primer ignition.

Joe

[leftiye]

Swheeler, It probly spends more time in the barrel, and is therefore pitched at a higher angle maybe????? You didn't say at what ranges, btw.

[PAT303]

Think about that Pat. Is there a situation where you can seat the bullet and there's still not an air space? Take it another direction. Fill the case with you Puff-Lon and you're telling me the bullet is just setting atop it? What's gripping the bullet? I'll let you think on that and you post back and tell me what you think.

Joe

I was going to neck size the case as usual,then I was going to start with 30grns of AR2209(4350) which is well under the starting load,fill the remainder of the case with buffer,loose fill then compress the buffer by seating the bullet.With the boolit and buffer the ''projectile'' will be around 165-170grns which is still under loaded for that amount of powder.I think I know what you are doing now as far as what your load is,or close to it.I don't feel it is dangerous to go that way by we'll see.I'm also going to try your lube. Pat

[PAT303]

I apologize for this thread getting off topic. If you fellows want to talk more lube we can take it to a lube thread.

Joe

I think the lube,filler,HV all go together,lets keep it all on this thread. Pat

[StarMetal]

I was going to neck size the case as usual,then I was going to start with 30grns of AR2209(4350) which is well under the starting load,fill the remainder of the case with buffer,loose fill then compress the buffer by seating the bullet.With the boolit and buffer the ''projectile'' will be around 165-170grns which is still under loaded for that amount of powder.I think I know what you are doing now as far as what your load is,or close to it.I don't feel it is dangerous to go that way by we'll see.I'm also going to try your lube. Pat

I believe there has been enough published here that tell one that you can't go by thinking about "being well under a starting load" thinking because it was said that the filler changes the case volume. It doesn't work that way. I think isn't good enough. You have to be 100 percent positive.

Joe

[PAT303]

So what I should do is find the exact amount of filler,then put that into a case and then find out how much powder then fills the case and then base my loads on a case that has the same capacity?. Pat

[longbow]

PAT303:

I had not heard of Pufflon so took a look at their website. How true the claims are I don't know but they basically state all the reasons I want a filler and I can't believe in this litigatious day and age we live in that they would sell a product that could damage guns or worse, hurt or kill people unless they were sure it was safe to use as directed.

From what I see, Pufflon is a granular filler that can be added to a load that is 10% below SAAMI max. That is a higher starting load than I am using with COW but then COW is likely denser as well.

I would be interested in your results with Pufflon and for that matter any other fillers you have tried.

If this is getting off topic for this thread then maybe another should be started or if you want to PM me with info I would be happy to discuss and share what I have as well.

I think it is all part and parcel with the reloading exercise and options especially for plain base boolits or working on higher than "normal" cast boolit velocities.

At this point I would be lucky to hit a milk jug at 300 yards with my .303. Groups are improving though and I credit filler with helping that.

So far, I am not pushing the envelope with heavy loads but I have not seen pressure signs so far with any load I have worked up using COW filler.

Longbow

[357maximum]

I am just sticking my head in here to :wink:APPLAUD :wink: all involved on this thread. It is about time all the facets of tru HV landed in the same spot. It is all coming together now.....lets keep it going.




I have not done the plastic filler work Joe has...I tend to stick with the easier HV cast cartridges out of mostly pure laziness on my part. I personally use slower than normal powders as a consumable filler on rifle cartridges that are realtively easier to a small degree with a matched tough/mallable alloy in a well fitted boolit with a proper lube for the task at hand. I would not set any records with my loads but for "small groups" capable of fine 300 yard hunting accuracy I am OK to head to the woods.


I would like to see at least one other fella jump in here....you know who you are.

[PAT303]

At the moment it's too hot here to do load work,I live in the desert and it's been 40+ degree's celsius so I can't cast and the heat makes it very difficult to shoot groups as the mirage is very bad,once it cools down I get back into it and post the results,as the above post said this is a really good thread and what CB is all about.All the info needed for HV is coming together in one thread. Pat

[357maximum]

At the moment it's too hot here to do load work,I live in the desert and it's been 40+ degree's celsius so I can't cast and the heat makes it very difficult to shoot groups as the mirage is very bad,once it cools down I get back into it and post the results,as the above post said this is a really good thread and what CB is all about.All the info needed for HV is coming together in one thread. Pat

If I sent you a flatrate box full of snow and 10deg F air would that help? :groner:

[mike in co]

If I sent you a flatrate box full of snow and 10deg F air would that help? :groner:


no, but making this a sticky was a great idea....thanks


mike in co

[StarMetal]

I am just sticking my head in here to :wink:APPLAUD :wink: all involved on this thread. It is about time all the facets of tru HV landed in the same spot. It is all coming together now.....lets keep it going.




I have not done the plastic filler work Joe has...I tend to stick with the easier HV cast cartridges out of mostly pure laziness on my part. I personally use slower than normal powders as a consumable filler on rifle cartridges that are realtively easier to a small degree with a matched tough/mallable alloy in a well fitted boolit with a proper lube for the task at hand. I would not set any records with my loads but for "small groups" capable of fine 300 yard hunting accuracy I am OK to head to the woods.


I would like to see at least one other fella jump in here....you know who you are.

Mikey,

I haven't shot nearly the amount of the stuff that 45 2.1 has....and he has jumped in here.

Joe

[PAT303]

If I sent you a flatrate box full of snow and 10deg F air would that help? :groner:

That would help,there is a couple of very bad bushfires around at the moment,40 houses were lost yesterday. Pat

[PAT303]

Mikey,

I haven't shot nearly the amount of the stuff that 45 2.1 has....and he has jumped in here.

Joe

I'm following his advice on page 5. Pat

[357maximum]

Mikey,

I haven't shot nearly the amount of the stuff that 45 2.1 has....and he has jumped in here.

Joe

Joe your "who" assumption is spot on, but he has not jumped in yet...he has merely stuck a toe in the water. That old codger ain't gonna live forever and I would dearly like to see more of his knowledge shared before they plant his ornery old butt down the road from his house.

^that is Michigan humor^ up there...no one should take it the wrong way:twisted: I owe about 85% of my HV cast success to that cagey old coot.

JOE: I/we understand the why to his method of teaching as we have been there. I would really like to see him right a book myself. He could reach the masses quicker and maybe make a few bucks writing a book.....not merely assembling one......it is not that hard to place a *caveat* in a post or on a page when the need arises.

BTW ... I want copy #1 and I want it signed.

[45 2.1]

Joe your "who" assumption is spot on, but he has not jumped in yet...he has merely stuck a toe in the water. That old codger ain't gonna live forever and I would dearly like to see more of his knowledge shared before they plant his ornery old butt down the road from his house.

^that is Michigan humor^ up there...no one should take it the wrong way:twisted: I owe about 85% of my HV cast success to that cagey old coot.

JOE: I/we understand the why to his method of teaching as we have been there. I would really like to see him right a book myself. He could reach the masses quicker and maybe make a few bucks writing a book.....not merely assembling one......it is not that hard to place a *caveat* in a post or on a page when the need arises.

BTW ... I want copy #1 and I want it signed.

I need a ghost writer.................... I can set you down at the bench, explain it to you, then show you how to load the cartridge correctly, then shoot a very nice group, BUT........ my writing skills along this line really suck. I write technical specs a lot, not the kind of writing skills needed here.

[StarMetal]

I need a ghost writer.................... I can set you down at the bench, explain it to you, then show you how to load the cartridge correctly, then shoot a very nice group, BUT........ my writing skills along this line really suck. I write technical specs a lot, not the kind of writing skills needed here.


Well forty five two point one, I'll be your ghost writer if you wish.

[smilie=w:

Joe

[PAT303]

One vote for Joe. Pat

[geargnasher]

I need a ghost writer.................... I can set you down at the bench, explain it to you, then show you how to load the cartridge correctly, then shoot a very nice group, BUT........ my writing skills along this line really suck. I write technical specs a lot, not the kind of writing skills needed here.

So what would you call that, if not technical writing? VOODOO??

Give yourself a little credit. I understand your writings and instructions posted here over the years perfectly, as do many others.

Gear

[mike in co]

So what would you call that, if not technical writing? VOODOO??

Give yourself a little credit. I understand your writings and instructions posted here over the years perfectly, as do many others.

Gear

i tend to agree...it is technical!!!
( or heck anyone could do it)

mike in co

[Eutectic]

Might have to chrono the velocity at 300 yards to figure up the energy.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx

Gosh! I better not hit my chronograph after shooting all the small groups. Be my luck of the draw thought. Will have to wait a little while as some really cold nasty weather is here. The forecast doesn't look good but I'll get her done.

Joe

Too much talk of milk jug permits, fillers, boolit lube........

I just want to see this 300yd velocity!

Eutectic

[StarMetal]

Too much talk of milk jug permits, fillers, boolit lube........

I just want to see this 300yd velocity!

Eutectic

I would too but I'm dealing with very bad weather and a very ill dog.

Joe

[StarMetal]

So what would you call that, if not technical writing? VOODOO??

Give yourself a little credit. I understand your writings and instructions posted here over the years perfectly, as do many others.

Gear

Academic vs. technical writing

Subject: Academic vs. technical writing
From: Chaim Chatan <chatan -at- IDI -dot- ORG -dot- IL>
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:29:29 +0200

Since there is a discussion of the differences between academic writing and
technical writing, let me give you the perspective of someone who has done
both. There are very important differences between academic and technical
writing. One must also realize that there are also different types of
academic writing and different types of technical writing.

First of all, the purposes and audiences are different between academic and
technical writing. The purposes of academic writing can be: 1) to present
the results of one's knowledge, 2) to present the results gained from one's
personal research, and 3) to present one's point of view. Of course, both
technical and academic writing is laden with jargon, but the jargon is used
for different purposes. As far as technical writing is concerned, the
purposes of technical writing can be: 1) to teach someone how to use a
specific product or service; and 2) to describe the procedures that are
employed by companies for carrying out various tasks.

The audiences are completely different. The academic is writing to fellow
scholars, and often, depending on the journal or publication, to the
general public. The technical writer is writing to the user of the product
or the service, or to government inspectors who need to see how the company
carries out certain tasks. Users, of course, differ from product to
product. In addition, technical writing differs from area to area. For
example, writing documentation for software is different from writing
documentation for hardware.

When I took a technical writing course as part of my professional
retraining, I had to unlearn a lot of what I had been doing as an academic
writer. We are dealing with different styles of writing altogether. Also,
there is good and bad academic and technical writing, and a good academic
writer may not become a good technical writer and vice versa. I have seen
downright awful academic writing, where the author wrote extremely unclear
and obscure prose, and I have seen extremely garbled technical writing,
where it was difficult to follow the instructions.

The important variable here is teachability. If an academic writer who
wants to become a technical writer is not teachable, especially coming from
the academic and liberal arts world, he/she will not be a good technical
writer. Good academic writing is not enough--teachability is the most
important factor. One of the most important tasks of interviewers of
candidates for technical writing jobs, especially candidates who have not
had professional experience, is not just simply to look at the writing
samples of the candidates, but to assess how teachable they are. If the
candidate has both academic and technical writing samples, the interviewer
should be able to assess whether the candidate has grasped the differences
between the two types of writing. This is one way to measure teachability.

Joe



__________________________________________________ _____________________

[geargnasher]

Too much talk of milk jug permits, fillers, boolit lube........

I just want to see this 300yd velocity!

Eutectic

Actually, this thread was stickied because of the relevant discussion regarding the tools, materials, and methods used to achieve accuracy with high velocity cast boolits.

I want to be able to impress myself with MY OWN 300 yard chronograph readings, and if you're reading this thread, that should be your goal as well.

Gear

[Eutectic]

Actually, this thread was stickied because of the relevant discussion regarding the tools, materials, and methods used to achieve accuracy with high velocity cast boolits. along with performance

I want to be able to impress myself with MY OWN 300 yard chronograph readings, and if you're reading this thread, that should be your goal as well.

Gear

Gear....

I've added words in red to your quote. Joe started this thread including performance in the equation by using the milk jug vs. paper for his 300 yard target.

Your second paragraph reads condescending to me. You have no idea of my knowledge or what my goals should be for that matter!

This forum is paramount in my definition as to shared experiences. Sure we can do OUR OWN testing and keep it to ourselves... or we can share it!

For your information then gear....

Joe is driving a rather soft boolit at 2300 fps. Add to that, the additional compressive longitudinal load from pushing into a very steep twist... Does Joe's 6.5 boolit take this in stride, or does it collapse some under load?

Therefore... my interest in Joe's 300 yard velocity reading is a measuring tool. Did Joe's bullet change in its coefficient of form during launch? If it collapsed much then a TRUE ballistic coefficient can be derived from Joe's 300 yard reading vs. his muzzle velocity. Joe's velocity at 300 yards will show a "slugged up" boolit if it has changed much. That's my interest.
Eutectic

[StarMetal]

Gear....

I've added words in red to your quote. Joe started this thread including performance in the equation by using the milk jug vs. paper for his 300 yard target.

Your second paragraph reads condescending to me. You have no idea of my knowledge or what my goals should be for that matter!

This forum is paramount in my definition as to shared experiences. Sure we can do OUR OWN testing and keep it to ourselves... or we can share it!

For your information then gear....

Joe is driving a rather soft boolit at 2300 fps. Add to that, the additional compressive longitudinal load from pushing into a very steep twist... Does Joe's 6.5 boolit take this in stride, or does it collapse some under load?

Therefore... my interest in Joe's 300 yard velocity reading is a measuring tool. Did Joe's bullet change in its coefficient of form during launch? If it collapsed much then a TRUE ballistic coefficient can be derived from Joe's 300 yard reading vs. his muzzle velocity. Joe's velocity at 300 yards will show a "slugged up" boolit if it has changed much. That's my interest.
Eutectic

Eutectic,

What do you mean by my bullet may have collapsed? Another way of saying compressed? Here's what I think. There is no doubt there's a difference in my bullet shape before and after firing. I'm sized at .268 and the groove on my Swede is .266-?. So no doubt it's being squeezed into those narrower groove not counting the even more narrow bore. With that said the metal has to go somewhere and that somewhere is length. The length would have to get longer then. So now we have a skinnier and longer bullet then the original unfired one. That should raise the BC I believe . If I'm wrong someone correct me.

Not saying anyone is stepping on any toes here, but let's keep our cool because this thread has done well. So if someone says something that doesn't go down your gullet quite right, try to swallow it and discuss it without a contest. God, nobody knows this more then me because I really get under many member's skin. I hope I'm past that now.

I forgot to say that I've recovered many of those bullets and have been able to get a diagnosis of what's going on in the bore and can definitely say the deep groove fast rifling twist isn't visibly stressing threm.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Eutectic

"Joe is driving a rather soft boolit at 2300 fps. Add to that, the additional compressive longitudinal load from pushing into a very steep twist... Does Joe's 6.5 boolit take this in stride, or does it collapse some under load?

Therefore... my interest in Joe's 300 yard velocity reading is a measuring tool. Did Joe's bullet change in its coefficient of form during launch? If it collapsed much then a TRUE ballistic coefficient can be derived from Joe's 300 yard reading vs. his muzzle velocity. Joe's velocity at 300 yards will show a "slugged up" boolit if it has changed much. That's my interest."

There is no doubt the bullet is compressing. As Joe mentions there is some tentency to lengthen but with the rapid accelleration and being forced into the fast twist the acts of lengthening is counteracted by the compression. The bullet does compress and it is back into the groove area where it can compress as the lube is forced out. The result is a shorter, squatter bullet shape with a lower BC. That softer cast bullets end up being more accurate at high velocity is, I believe, because they compress evenly whereas a hard bullet may compress more on one side or the alloy may chip off on the driving bands.

Thus the softer bullet at HV stays more balanced and is less affected by RPM. I attempted to explain all of this during the RPM threshold testing I conducted. I actually do measure the BC of the bullets (based on measured muzzle velocity and 100 yard velocity) with the M43 PBL. My tests so far with soft cast bullets vs hard cast bullets out of the same mould in the 6.5 Swede show the BC of the soft cast bullets decreases at a higher rate as velocity is increased vs the hard cast bullets. That is factual proof of the set back and compression of the softer bullets as evidenced by the smaller BC.

However, my factual findings were boo hooed to no extent and ignored during the tests. I imagine the same will happen here. Eutectic, bottem line is you are correct.

Larry Gibson

[Eutectic]

I forgot to say that I've recovered many of those bullets and have been able to get a diagnosis of what's going on in the bore and can definitely say the deep groove fast rifling twist isn't visibly stressing threm.

Joe

This quote may best describe my term collapse.... Shortening in length. I'm not talking torque forces, although they could be present with the Swede's twist rate. If you have fairly pristine recovered bullets one can look at lube groove wide/depth. Impact with anything hard can trick you as they will shorten then too. Mike the O.D. on recovered slugs as hard impact usually expands diameter as well.

In worse case scenarios. The nose can collapse some during acceleration. I doubt this is your case however.

Might be difficult in Tennessee, but I find a huge drift of fresh dry snow the best for checking fired slugs. (Easy to say here in the Rockies!)

I bought a hundred "Keith" boolits years'ago from a guy. They were 429421's that were hollow pointed. Supposed to be 1 in 16 alloy. Nicely cast, so I bought them, soft as they seemed. I should have hardness tested them but I didn't. They shot pretty decent; but I noticed some holes were "cut" sharper than others in the target. But they were just coyote loads. It was winter so I shot a cylinder full into a BIG drift out back on a whim. Forgot all about them come spring (this is a slow testing process!) I was walking towards my 70 yard target when I found a Keith boolit on the ground. Some searching found two more. THEY LOOKED LIKE SLIGHTLY MUSHROOMED WADCUTTERS!! I showed them to a buddy explaining how they had collapsed in the revolver.
"How do you know that!" He tooted.
"Look at them! The rifling goes their full length!" I returned.

Cast boolits can be full of tricks.

Eutectic

[felix]

Larry, you were not laughed at by me!! ... felix

[Eutectic]

I forgot to say that I've recovered many of those bullets and have been able to get a diagnosis of what's going on in the bore and can definitely say the deep groove fast rifling twist isn't visibly stressing threm.

Joe

This quote may best describe my term collapse.... Shortening in length. I'm not talking torque forces, although they could be present with the Swede's twist rate. If you have fairly pristine recovered bullets one can look at lube groove wide/depth. Impact with anything hard can trick you as they will shorten then too. Mike the O.D. on recovered slugs as hard impact usually expands diameter as well.

In worse case scenarios. The nose can collapse some during acceleration. I doubt this is your case however.

Might be difficult in Tennessee, but I find a huge drift of fresh dry snow the best for checking fired slugs. (Easy to say here in the Rockies!)

I bought a hundred "Keith" boolits years'ago from a guy. They were 429421's that were hollow pointed. Supposed to be 1 in 16 alloy. Nicely cast, so I bought them, soft as they seemed. I should have hardness tested them but I didn't. They shot pretty decent; but I noticed some holes were "cut" sharper than others in the target. But they were just coyote loads. It was winter so I shot a cylinder full into a BIG drift out back on a whim. Forgot all about them come spring (this is a slow testing process!) I was walking towards my 70 yard target when I found a Keith boolit on the ground. Some searching found two more. THEY LOOKED LIKE SLIGHTLY MUSHROOMED WADCUTTERS!! I showed them to a buddy explaining how they had collapsed in the revolver.
"How do you know that!" He tooted.
"Look at them! The rifling goes their full length!" I returned.

Cast boolits can be full of tricks.

Eutectic

[Tazman1602]

I need a ghost writer.................... I can set you down at the bench, explain it to you, then show you how to load the cartridge correctly, then shoot a very nice group, BUT........ my writing skills along this line really suck. I write technical specs a lot, not the kind of writing skills needed here.

Give yourself some credit here man. I've only been here a short while but your posts are extremely valuable. Nobody can be good at everything. My wife is a gifted accountant but you know how she passed English 202? I told her to give me her research paper and walk away then when she went to hand it in she wanted to read it and I told her just to turn it in. I've worked with PHD's who can't spell and I've worked with Engineers who are very good at what they do in the computer field, but have the personality of a tomato and couldn't instruct anyone to do anything.

The reason I write well, according to wife, is that I'm so full of poop I like to hear myself talk as well as write..............

Joe's volunteered and if he needs help just ask and I'll be happy to.

Art

[longbow]

The title of this thread caught my interest and I have been following along picking up bits of information here and there but there is still lots to learn.

I hope the thread keeps developing and the guys that know will share enough to help the guys who are eager to learn. Like I said, I am all ears and waiting for more details.

I have learned a tremendous amount on this site in the last few years and I read lots of posts by people like Larry Gibson, Starmetal, 45 2.1, Felix (to name a few knowledgeable people on this thread) and a host of others, always learning something.

This thread may be about the 6.5 Swede but the principles that allow Joe to get the results he does can be applied to other cartridges as well.

I am interested.

Longbow

[PAT303]

Larry, you were not laughed at by me!! ... felix

Me either. Pat

[PAT303]

Up to now I have always dropped my boolits into water from the mold as it is a common practice but reading Larry's line on soft boolits forming evenly into the bore makes a lot of sense,I can't wait for it to cool down and put theory into practise.This is the best thread we've had for a while. Pat

[StarMetal]

Up to now I have always dropped my boolits into water from the mold as it is a common practice but reading Larry's line on soft boolits forming evenly into the bore makes a lot of sense,I can't wait for it to cool down and put theory into practise.This is the best thread we've had for a while. Pat

You can make them shoot both ways. I shoot some that are air cooled and I shoot others that are water dropped. Recently I was shooting BaBore's remake of the Lyman 266469 and they were water dropped. I wasn't shooting the powders I would have liked for it, but with that said my first tests of it were 3/4 inch groups at velocity.

About the centering that is one thing using the 06 brass that is just neck sized and has the neck turned to minimum expansion clearance in the neck portion of the chamber does...centers the bullet. Someone explain to me how a soft bullet forms evenly into the bore if it's off center. Also is that to say if a soft bullet and a hard bullet are centered that the harder bullet won't form evenly into the bore? I'm a little confused with this one. One thing further...this technique also helps the bullet start and go more straight into the bore. It nulls, to a degree, some of the influences that want to make the bullet cant upon initial acceleration.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Eutectic

"Joe is driving a rather soft boolit at 2300 fps. Add to that, the additional compressive longitudinal load from pushing into a very steep twist... Does Joe's 6.5 boolit take this in stride, or does it collapse some under load?

Therefore... my interest in Joe's 300 yard velocity reading is a measuring tool. Did Joe's bullet change in its coefficient of form during launch? If it collapsed much then a TRUE ballistic coefficient can be derived from Joe's 300 yard reading vs. his muzzle velocity. Joe's velocity at 300 yards will show a "slugged up" boolit if it has changed much. That's my interest."

There is no doubt the bullet is compressing. As Joe mentions there is some tentency to lengthen but with the rapid accelleration and being forced into the fast twist the acts of lengthening is counteracted by the compression. The bullet does compress and it is back into the groove area where it can compress as the lube is forced out. The result is a shorter, squatter bullet shape with a lower BC. That softer cast bullets end up being more accurate at high velocity is, I believe, because they compress evenly whereas a hard bullet may compress more on one side or the alloy may chip off on the driving bands.

Thus the softer bullet at HV stays more balanced and is less affected by RPM. I attempted to explain all of this during the RPM threshold testing I conducted. I actually do measure the BC of the bullets (based on measured muzzle velocity and 100 yard velocity) with the M43 PBL. My tests so far with soft cast bullets vs hard cast bullets out of the same mould in the 6.5 Swede show the BC of the soft cast bullets decreases at a higher rate as velocity is increased vs the hard cast bullets. That is factual proof of the set back and compression of the softer bullets as evidenced by the smaller BC.

However, my factual findings were boo hooed to no extent and ignored during the tests. I imagine the same will happen here. Eutectic, bottem line is you are correct.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Why is it when we drastically size down a lubed bullet, as for example a when I sized those RCBS 124 grain TC nose 9mm's to 30 caliber, they grew quite an amount. Why is that in a luber sizer, or even the Lee pust through, and groove stays pretty much the same and the lube isn't pushed out? I will say that the groove does narrow somewhat, but is not proportional to the growth of the length. Doing what I just said is much more of a drastic sizing down of a bullet then when it's in the bore. I'll have to measure some bullets lengths before and after normal sizing. That is, for example take my 266469, lube it with my fingers and measure the length, then size it and measure it again. I want to be fair lubing it the first time because moving the metal can compress into the lube groove before the lube gets into them in luber sizer.

Joe

[StarMetal]

The title of this thread caught my interest and I have been following along picking up bits of information here and there but there is still lots to learn.

I hope the thread keeps developing and the guys that know will share enough to help the guys who are eager to learn. Like I said, I am all ears and waiting for more details.

I have learned a tremendous amount on this site in the last few years and I read lots of posts by people like Larry Gibson, Starmetal, 45 2.1, Felix (to name a few knowledgeable people on this thread) and a host of others, always learning something.

This thread may be about the 6.5 Swede but the principles that allow Joe to get the results he does can be applied to other cartridges as well.

I am interested.

Longbow

True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't.

Joe

[geargnasher]

True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't.

Joe

Ok, I was assuming it would be. Would you mind helping me understand why it can't?

If I'm trying to do essentially the same thing with a .270 Winchester with properly fit and tempered cases why can't I apply the same concepts that worked for the Swede with properly dimensioned brass? IIRC you have used this unconventional loading technique on more than one caliber with good success, and though I know it didn't help much in one instance, it could be tried none the less.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

Bullets do lengthen when sized down, that is not an issue. The cast bullet when accelerating is under terrific G forces, the faster the acceleration the greater the force. That G force is much greater than the simple force caused during sizing in which the lead flows in the direction of least resistance. The G force may well be much greater than the force of the bullet being sized down in the bore.

let us consider a WQ'd cast bullet with and air cooled cast bullet. When the cast bullet comes out of the mould it is still very hot. However it isn't the same temperature in or on all areas of the bullet. When WQ'd the various degrees of temperature cause various degrees of hardness in different locations on/in the bullet. An AC'd cast bullet cools down over a period of time and the hardness is pretty much the same all over in and out.

Now when we accelerate the AC'd cast bullet the tremendous G force will cause the bullet to evenly set back into the lube grooves as the lube is squeezed out onto the surface of the bore. This squeezing out and depletion of the lube leaves a small amount of space for the collapse of the bullet. The actual amount of collapse is going to be dependant on many things all inter-related. Lets look at a WQ'd bullet on the other hand. Say one side of the bullet is a little harder than the other side. The harder side may be hard enough to with stand the G force. The other side may not be so it collapses. It only takes a small amount of collapse to cause the balance of the bullet to become skewed; the center of form, center of spin and center of gravity do not coincide. Now comes the part you don't want to believe but it is what is happening whether you believe it or not. The high RPM (we're talking now about 200,000+ RPM) then has an adverse affect on that bullet while in flight. The farther the bullet flies the greater the adverse effect (groups get larger in a non-linear manner) on accuracy. The effect may be small or it may be large depending on the amount of imbalance and the RPM.

Now if you look at a cast bullet with a bore riding nose the nose itself has lots of room to collapse rearward and to the sides into the grooves or on one side of the nose into the grooves. This results in a very unbalance bullet and is why it is much more difficult to shoot such cast bullets with bore riding noses at higher velocity. This is why Lovern style bullets such as the one of BaBore's that you are using work much better at HV; there isn't a long nose. Yes I know of your claimes with bore riding nose designs. But remember you also claim a very tight fit with those noses. That helps to negate uneven set back.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

I'm still interested in the BC of that little flat nosed 130 gr bullet. I can't for the life of me figure out how that bullet started at 2300 fps can hit dead on at 300 yards when using the first dot under the crosshair when scope is zeroed at 100 yds? That dot should give about 1.5 moa elevation, or +4.5 inches at 300 yards, I don't own a gun that shoots that flat! Not my 6.5 @3200, 30 cal @3300+, or 22@3500, with a 100 yd zero I have to use the second dot down from cross hair to hit 300 yd gong. I must say I'm baffled??

[Bullshop Junior]

I'm still interested in the BC of that little flat nosed 130 gr bullet. I can't for the life of me figure out how that bullet started at 2300 fps can hit dead on at 300 yards when using the first dot under the crosshair when scope is zeroed at 100 yds? That dot should give about 1.5 moa elevation, or +4.5 inches at 300 yards, I don't own a gun that shoots that flat! Not my 6.5 @3200, 30 cal @3300+, or 22@3500, with a 100 yd zero I have to use the second dot down from cross hair to hit 300 yd gong. I must say I'm baffled??

My 7mm/08 drops 4.9" at 300 yards with 100gr bullets at 3400 FPS, acording to the Sierra book.

That is the closest any thing I have will come.

[longbow]

True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't.

Joe

I have the same question as Gear... why wouldn't the same principles apply? Please help me understand.

Longbow

[StarMetal]

Starmetal

Bullets do lengthen when sized down, that is not an issue. The cast bullet when accelerating is under terrific G forces, the faster the acceleration the greater the force. That G force is much greater than the simple force caused during sizing in which the lead flows in the direction of least resistance. The G force may well be much greater than the force of the bullet being sized down in the bore.

let us consider a WQ'd cast bullet with and air cooled cast bullet. When the cast bullet comes out of the mould it is still very hot. However it isn't the same temperature in or on all areas of the bullet. When WQ'd the various degrees of temperature cause various degrees of hardness in different locations on/in the bullet. An AC'd cast bullet cools down over a period of time and the hardness is pretty much the same all over in and out.

Now when we accelerate the AC'd cast bullet the tremendous G force will cause the bullet to evenly set back into the lube grooves as the lube is squeezed out onto the surface of the bore. This squeezing out and depletion of the lube leaves a small amount of space for the collapse of the bullet. The actual amount of collapse is going to be dependant on many things all inter-related. Lets look at a WQ'd bullet on the other hand. Say one side of the bullet is a little harder than the other side. The harder side may be hard enough to with stand the G force. The other side may not be so it collapses. It only takes a small amount of collapse to cause the balance of the bullet to become skewed; the center of form, center of spin and center of gravity do not coincide. Now comes the part you don't want to believe but it is what is happening whether you believe it or not. The high RPM (we're talking now about 200,000+ RPM) then has an adverse affect on that bullet while in flight. The farther the bullet flies the greater the adverse effect (groups get larger in a non-linear manner) on accuracy. The effect may be small or it may be large depending on the amount of imbalance and the RPM.

Now if you look at a cast bullet with a bore riding nose the nose itself has lots of room to collapse rearward and to the sides into the grooves or on one side of the nose into the grooves. This results in a very unbalance bullet and is why it is much more difficult to shoot such cast bullets with bore riding noses at higher velocity. This is why Lovern style bullets such as the one of BaBore's that you are using work much better at HV; there isn't a long nose. Yes I know of your claimes with bore riding nose designs. But remember you also claim a very tight fit with those noses. That helps to negate uneven set back.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I see what you're saying about WQ'ed. You are correct in that my bore riders nose fit the bore like a glove. That 140 Saeco fit's my Grendel barrel like Saeco designed it for that. Now when I shoot that Saeco out of my E.R.Shaw 260 Rem barrel, which the groove is the size...but the bore in not, it's too fat, no accuracy what so ever. Too back my 6.5x54 Mannlicher has such a long freebore that it prevents me from using that Saeco. Same barrel on that rifle as on the Grendel except that they are chambered for different cartridges and the Grendel barrel is a bull barrel.

Joe

[swheeler]

My 7mm/08 drops 4.9" at 300 yards with 100gr bullets at 3400 FPS, acording to the Sierra book.

That is the closest any thing I have will come.

Maybe with a 200 yard zero and about 8 inches with a 100 yd zero.

[Bullshop Junior]

Maybe with a 200 yard zero and about 8 inches with a 100 yd zero.

I meant 5.9. Also, I was looking in the wrong column, and that is 250 yards.
I feel so silly..............

I have not idea how that 6.5 boolit is dropping that little. I would like to know how he is doing it.

[swheeler]

"True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't" by starmetal

You are loading a slow powder to about 54% of case capacity and the remainder of poly shot buffer for filler to give 100%+density(compressed), yes? I would think this same principle or formula would work for other cartridges. You would just have to pick a single base powder of the correct speed for your target velocity that yielded 54%(or higher) load density. Then you would add the filler to achieve compressed load, NO?
As for forming brass with thicker necks to center the cartridge in the chamber, this is old time stuff, thinking back 20 years to forming 7.65 ARG and 8mm from surplus 06. If the chamber is of correct dimensions, throat not grossly over groove diameter, then same or similar effect should be accomplished by sizing to throat diameter and engraving on ogive or nose if possible. Please tell me why you cannot achieve the cushioning, anti ablation, sealing effect of the psb filler with calibers other than 6.5 Swede. Scot

[swheeler]

I meant 5.9. Also, I was looking in the wrong column, and that is 250 yards.
I feel so silly..............

I have not idea how that 6.5 boolit is dropping that little. I would like to know how he is doing it.

Junior; that still beats the ol 30/30 with a stick! Think of the new and improved 7RUM, a 140 faster than your 100 grain, we're getting close to "Ray Gun" Now I really like taking game with cast, never did it until about 5 years ago, but one of the biggest draw backs was always trajectory and terminal velocity, and now when Joe EXPLAINS it to us all that is no longer a concern.

[StarMetal]

I'm still interested in the BC of that little flat nosed 130 gr bullet. I can't for the life of me figure out how that bullet started at 2300 fps can hit dead on at 300 yards when using the first dot under the crosshair when scope is zeroed at 100 yds? That dot should give about 1.5 moa elevation, or +4.5 inches at 300 yards, I don't own a gun that shoots that flat! Not my 6.5 @3200, 30 cal @3300+, or 22@3500, with a 100 yd zero I have to use the second dot down from cross hair to hit 300 yd gong. I must say I'm baffled??

Scot and others,

In the first post I mentioned the scope as a 2.5x10 Burris with Mil Dot Reticle. Well I'm wondering about all this too so I went to the Burris site and they have a pretty extensive read on the Mil Dot. It was then a light went on in my head. I have a Mil Dot scope on my 6.5 Grendel, which I've shot lots more then my Swede, and as mentioned a Mil Dot on the Swede. The mix up is the Grendel wears the 2.5x14 Burris and the Swede wears the 2.5x10 Tasco Target Mil Dot. Went to the Tasco sight and their PDF of the mil dot was worthless, but I gathered that the first mil down from the main fine crosshairs on the Tasco is for a further distance then the Burris one, which Burris said is 200 yards. So that might explain why it appears the Kurtz shot so flat. Tasco did say use the fine main cross hair for 100 and 200 yards. So that first dot down has to be further then 200 yards. I'm also wondering how much a slower cast bullet as compared to very high velocity jacketed bullets affects the accuracy of mil dot too as they are calibrated for the jacketed load. Sorry for my mix up. At any rate the bullet still wacked jug of water pretty hard.

Forgot something on the Burris Mil Dot, which swheeler is figuring from: Burris says the first dot down is for 200 yards and it will print .80" at 100 yards. At the 2nd down dot for 300 yards will print 2.43". Remember now those are for high velocity flat shooting jacketed bullets.

Joe

[swheeler]

That explains some of it I believe. I am not that up on the different reticles but the B-plex is not a mil-dot, mil-dot is graduated in millradiant? and the balistic plex was st up to compensate for the modern hi-powered rifles and broke down in moa from 100 yd zero, except for the real flat shooters then cross hair is for 1 and 200 I believe? would have to look. Still want to see terminal velocity at 300 yds . Scot

[swheeler]

Joe; what do you say about the filler and similar load density of single base powder in different cartridges? Will it work, I don't see why not as far as safety goes, now accuracy we all know that has to be worked out.

[StarMetal]

Joe; what do you say about the filler and similar load density of single base powder in different cartridges? Will it work, I don't see why not as far as safety goes, now accuracy we all know that has to be worked out.

As cartridge and caliber changes so does the effect. Look at how close the 260 Rem, 6.5x54MS, and 6.5 Swede are and yet the loads and loading of them is vastly different for me. Only thing that stayed the same between them are the bullets. I also understand that it's different between same caliber and make of rifle. 45 2.1 got his excellent results in his Swede/Swedes with an entirely different powder then me. So that adds another variable..maybe the sweet spot can be found with different powders. If you and others remember little while back I posted that 10 one hole group I shot with my Finn 39 using the 314299 at what I'd call low end HV (i'll have to look up my records I believe it was around 2000 fps or slightly over) well I used the type of loading discussed here with it. That was the first load of that kind for it so maybe I'll play with that some and see if I can bump the velocity more.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Joe, I just took two nice whitetails yesterday evening with my CG Swede and (Gulp) softpoint J-words at an embarrassingly close distance. Due to having to shoot fast standing offhand (something I, like most hunters, never practice enough) I chose to shoot them both through the shoulders and punched the neatest little holes through them. Both jumped straight up in the air and ran 30-40 yards before collapsing (both heart-shot), but I think would have gone much further without broken shoulders as they required sidearm finishing shots for the sake of being humane. These little holes, even after hitting bone, is why I dislike j-words in small calibers for hunting deer. There was so little tissue damage that the hearts were edible and most of the shoulder meat wasn't even bruised.

Point is I really don't like to shoot something knowing it will take it two minutes to die. There are far more humane ways to stock the freezer, and that is the primary reason I want to shoot reasonably soft cast with the Swede and .270, it either needs to do to a deer's heart/lungs what your Swede did to that water jug or be so accurate I can take careful head/neck shots at long range, preferably both. Right now my .30-30 win and .30-'06 are the only guns I own that can come close to that goal, and I should have used one of them yesterday except I hadn't ever killed a deer with that particular Swede.

Soooooooo, you know where I am and where I want to be, how about throwing me a bone?

Gear

[StarMetal]

Joe, I just took two nice whitetails yesterday evening with my CG Swede and (Gulp) softpoint J-words at an embarrassingly close distance. Due to having to shoot fast standing offhand (something I, like most hunters, never practice enough) I chose to shoot them both through the shoulders and punched the neatest little holes through them. Both jumped straight up in the air and ran 30-40 yards before collapsing (both heart-shot), but I think would have gone much further without broken shoulders as they required sidearm finishing shots for the sake of being humane. These little holes, even after hitting bone, is why I dislike j-words in small calibers for hunting deer. There was so little tissue damage that the hearts were edible and most of the shoulder meat wasn't even bruised.

Point is I really don't like to shoot something knowing it will take it two minutes to die. There are far more humane ways to stock the freezer, and that is the primary reason I want to shoot reasonably soft cast with the Swede and .270, it either needs to do to a deer's heart/lungs what your Swede did to that water jug or be so accurate I can take careful head/neck shots at long range, preferably both. Right now my .30-30 win and .30-'06 are the only guns I own that can come close to that goal, and I should have used one of them yesterday except I hadn't ever killed a deer with that particular Swede.

Soooooooo, you know where I am and where I want to be, how about throwing me a bone?

Gear

About two years about I shot a doe that was about 100 yards and with her right side facing me at a quarter angle. I shot her in front of the shoulder with a 260 Rem with a 140 grain Rem Cor Loc. The bullet ended up right under the skin in her left ham and expanded pretty darn good. It was a total path of destruction through her. She went about 25 yards and I had to give her the coupe de gras. I'm convinced had the shot been with my 7mm08 Sako with the 139 grain Hornady she'd dropped in her tracks. I'm not all sold on heart shot. Seen too many of them go too far with totally destroyed hearts. I'm not discounting the 260 but I feel the 7mm08 hits them harder. I've seen some really downed deer with the 243 and 6mm and those are even smaller then the 6.5's. Just saying I don't believe a cast bullet is going to make a 6.5 Swede any better killer.

Joe

[swheeler]

OK but I'm talking purely SAFETY factor in cartridges other than 6.5x55.. Puflon has been around for years now and I have heard of no one blowing themselves up with it? Buckshot used a whole lot of grex with surplus powders, mostly double based powders if I remember correctly. You know we talked before about me trying psb in the 6.5 carcano, results were not what I wanted for accuracy but were completely safe, but I stayed with real slow powders and about 80- 90% powder and remainder compressed psb with heavy cast. Seems years ago I tried reduced loads of H110 and dacron in 223 with cast, about 4-5 shots scared me enough I pulled the rest down, spreads of 2-300fps IIRC, but never saw anything like that with the psb in the carcano. Just looking for a little more guidence like so many others here.

[geargnasher]

I wish I had a way of recovering those bullets from yesterday, even with Sierra Gamekings at just over 2600 fps they didn't do much. I'm not sold on the heart shot either, but that's the best choice I had under the circumstances. You may be right about cast not making the Swede a better killer, but I want to see what the wet phone books tell me. First gotta be able to hit one at more than 50 feet. I know it won't work very well at 1500 fps, either.

So you pretty much answered my question by answering SWheeler's, there is always extensive reworking of powder/primer/lube/alloy/temper/boolit fit/boolit style/neck tension etc. when changing cartridge styles/calibers, but much of the methodology for developing such high-velocity, accurate cast boolit loads could remain the same, even thought the "best" loads for even very similar cartridges may be wildly different. I would like to think that a slightly compressed load of IMR 4831 would be more ideal than, say, 80% density of AA 4350 with a stack of filler on top, but I know what works in one place often won't work in another.

Gear

[PAT303]

I've tried 4831 in the swede and it did a good job,36grns 2/3rds filled the cases and shot into 1.5'' at 100 yards every time.It will be the first powder I'll try with Puff-Lon,all I want is a good 200 meter load for field rifle comp. Pat

[geargnasher]

That's a fairly light charge of IMR 4831, Pat, do you know the velocity? I'm assuming you're shooting j-words?

Gear

[StarMetal]

OK but I'm talking purely SAFETY factor in cartridges other than 6.5x55.. Puflon has been around for years now and I have heard of no one blowing themselves up with it? Buckshot used a whole lot of grex with surplus powders, mostly double based powders if I remember correctly. You know we talked before about me trying psb in the 6.5 carcano, results were not what I wanted for accuracy but were completely safe, but I stayed with real slow powders and about 80- 90% powder and remainder compressed psb with heavy cast. Seems years ago I tried reduced loads of H110 and dacron in 223 with cast, about 4-5 shots scared me enough I pulled the rest down, spreads of 2-300fps IIRC, but never saw anything like that with the psb in the carcano. Just looking for a little more guidence like so many others here.

Look at how many years myself and others have been shooting Dacron and Kapok. Look at how many poster here post about using Dacron and tamping it down tight over the powder like a wad and leaving an air space between it and the bullet. Then look at how many times they have gotten away with it. Things have to be exactly right for a disaster. The powder tech at Hodgdon doesn't believe the old 148 grain hollow base wad cutter blow up with a minute 2. some grains of Bullseyes. He said if we could go back in a time machine we would find the real culprit and being a double or triple charge of it. But yet it happens.

Against 45 2.1's better advice I messed around with the filler in my 6.5x54MS. Thank God it's on a strong action. I didn't load it right with like 30 grains of 4895 and ended up having to pound my bolt open on my Savage.

Well you use a filler think of your cartridge becoming the 9mm Parabellum and we all know how touchy that cartridge can be because most often the powder fills the entire case capacity up the bullet base and think of the seated bullet as the filler. Seat the bullet little too deep and the pressure sky rockets.

There are major performance differences between the poly type filler!

Joe

[StarMetal]

I wish I had a way of recovering those bullets from yesterday, even with Sierra Gamekings at just over 2600 fps they didn't do much. I'm not sold on the heart shot either, but that's the best choice I had under the circumstances. You may be right about cast not making the Swede a better killer, but I want to see what the wet phone books tell me. First gotta be able to hit one at more than 50 feet. I know it won't work very well at 1500 fps, either.

So you pretty much answered my question by answering SWheeler's, there is always extensive reworking of powder/primer/lube/alloy/temper/boolit fit/boolit style/neck tension etc. when changing cartridge styles/calibers, but much of the methodology for developing such high-velocity, accurate cast boolit loads could remain the same, even thought the "best" loads for even very similar cartridges may be wildly different. I would like to think that a slightly compressed load of IMR 4831 would be more ideal than, say, 80% density of AA 4350 with a stack of filler on top, but I know what works in one place often won't work in another.

Gear

I'm sure the 4831 load would work. But there is something that I, 45 2.1, and others that use this technique are accomplishing. That is HV and extremel accuracy. So you can't really get enough 4831 in that case to give you the HV and I doubt you're going to put the bullets all in one hole. With the filler you make that slow powder produce more pressure at the same time enhancing accuracy pushing the bullet more straight into the bore.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I've tried 4831 in the swede and it did a good job,36grns 2/3rds filled the cases and shot into 1.5'' at 100 yards every time.It will be the first powder I'll try with Puff-Lon,all I want is a good 200 meter load for field rifle comp. Pat

You're getting on track Pat. 4831 is one of the powders I want to try and haven't been able too because my supplier, Wideners, is just about out of every powder.

I can tell you Puff Lon isn't anything like the filler I use.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I was the Puff Lon website. I read what they said about using it in gas operated rifles. Well been using my filler right along in my AR's and MAS 49/56. So we have a group that thinks "Wow, cast in an AR?, won't that plug up the gas tube, etc.?" NO, it doesn't nor does the lead. For one if you're loading cast right you shouldn't be getting any leading, right? So how's it going to plug up anything? Of all the fillers I've tried in my AR's, that is Dacron, Kapok, the filler spoke of in this thread.....I find nothing in my AR's gas system. In fact I find my carrier cylinder much easier to clean the powder carbon from it. The bullet lube makes it softer and and not like the hard caked on carbon shooting HV jacketed loads.

Joe

[geargnasher]

You're getting on track Pat. 4831 is one of the powders I want to try and haven't been able too because my supplier, Wideners, is just about out of every powder.

I can tell you Puff Lon isn't anything like the filler I use.

Joe

I take it you use something with less "lubricity" than Pufflon that creates more restriction at the case neck and thus higher chamber pressures?

Gear

[Eutectic]

Starmetal

Bullets do lengthen when sized down, that is not an issue. The cast bullet when accelerating is under terrific G forces, the faster the acceleration the greater the force. That G force is much greater than the simple force caused during sizing in which the lead flows in the direction of least resistance. The G force may well be much greater than the force of the bullet being sized down in the bore.

let us consider a WQ'd cast bullet with and air cooled cast bullet. When the cast bullet comes out of the mould it is still very hot. However it isn't the same temperature in or on all areas of the bullet. When WQ'd the various degrees of temperature cause various degrees of hardness in different locations on/in the bullet. An AC'd cast bullet cools down over a period of time and the hardness is pretty much the same all over in and out.

Now when we accelerate the AC'd cast bullet the tremendous G force will cause the bullet to evenly set back into the lube grooves as the lube is squeezed out onto the surface of the bore. This squeezing out and depletion of the lube leaves a small amount of space for the collapse of the bullet. The actual amount of collapse is going to be dependant on many things all inter-related. Lets look at a WQ'd bullet on the other hand. Say one side of the bullet is a little harder than the other side. The harder side may be hard enough to with stand the G force. The other side may not be so it collapses. It only takes a small amount of collapse to cause the balance of the bullet to become skewed; the center of form, center of spin and center of gravity do not coincide. Now comes the part you don't want to believe but it is what is happening whether you believe it or not. The high RPM (we're talking now about 200,000+ RPM) then has an adverse affect on that bullet while in flight. The farther the bullet flies the greater the adverse effect (groups get larger in a non-linear manner) on accuracy. The effect may be small or it may be large depending on the amount of imbalance and the RPM.

Now if you look at a cast bullet with a bore riding nose the nose itself has lots of room to collapse rearward and to the sides into the grooves or on one side of the nose into the grooves. This results in a very unbalance bullet and is why it is much more difficult to shoot such cast bullets with bore riding noses at higher velocity. This is why Lovern style bullets such as the one of BaBore's that you are using work much better at HV; there isn't a long nose. Yes I know of your claimes with bore riding nose designs. But remember you also claim a very tight fit with those noses. That helps to negate uneven set back.

Larry Gibson

To all,

I don't know why Larry's few paragraphs above haven't gotten more response... A wealth of info is in these few paragraphs. We should 'bookmark' this page; even hard copy it for future reference.

Good job Larry!

As I listen to the "sizer" comments though, I also wonder if the "G" force in Larry's post is understood?

Please let me add some comments on the force our boolit sees. In the sizer, most of the force applied to change our bullet diameter is a circumferential or 'squeezing in' type force. Only enough longitudinal force 'or squeezing shorter' is applied to push our boolit through our sizing apparatus. The boolit will probably lengthen some in the process.

What does our boolit see upon firing? There is enough circumferential force applied for rifling engraving, then circumferential force increases as a result of longitudinal force.... but it is contained by the configuration of our barrel. This goes on concurrently which is why throat/chamber configuration becomes even more important for cast vs. the "J" word applications!

Things happen in microseconds upon ignition of our primer. Pressure behind our boolit climbs rapidly to several thousand pounds per square inch. We need to overcome inertia to get our boolit moving... "G" forces are tremendous, especially at launch. This isn't a slow motion space shuttle launch either! It is probably better to think our boolit is 'hammered out' at launch! "G" forces tremendous enough that longitudinal force on our boolit is also tremendous. IF these forces become higher than the structural integrity of our boolit, then our boolit will shorten/change shape in the process. I've already pointed out how 40,000 psi of a high energy powder (2400) and a buttery soft Keith HP changed shape to almost a lead cylinder! This re-shape phenomena may or may not be bad in a less extreme case. As Larry points out.... if collapse (shortening) occurs EVENLY for a balanced projectile all is good, maybe even better!

90% if not more, of the downrange accuracy capability of our boolit occurs in the first few fractions of an inch travel in just microseconds of time during launch. This has been my experience for over a half century now. Many mechanical things can be 'worked' on both in boolit and gun to achieve the best result; that's the fun of it for this ol' boy!

Maybe the oldtimers had something by "breech seating" their cast boolits over a hundred years' ago, huh?

Eutectic

[StarMetal]

To all,

I don't know why Larry's few paragraphs above haven't gotten more response... A wealth of info is in these few paragraphs. We should 'bookmark' this page; even hard copy it for future reference.

Good job Larry!

As I listen to the "sizer" comments though, I also wonder if the "G" force in Larry's post is understood?

Please let me add some comments on the force our boolit sees. In the sizer, most of the force applied to change our bullet diameter is a circumferential or 'squeezing in' type force. Only enough longitudinal force 'or squeezing shorter' is applied to push our boolit through our sizing apparatus. The boolit will probably lengthen some in the process.

What does our boolit see upon firing? There is enough circumferential force applied for rifling engraving, then circumferential force increases as a result of longitudinal force.... but it is contained by the configuration of our barrel. This goes on concurrently which is why throat/chamber configuration becomes even more important for cast vs. the "J" word applications!

Things happen in microseconds upon ignition of our primer. Pressure behind our boolit climbs rapidly to several thousand pounds per square inch. We need to overcome inertia to get our boolit moving... "G" forces are tremendous, especially at launch. This isn't a slow motion space shuttle launch either! It is probably better to think our boolit is 'hammered out' at launch! "G" forces tremendous enough that longitudinal force on our boolit is also tremendous. IF these forces become higher than the structural integrity of our boolit, then our boolit will shorten/change shape in the process. I've already pointed out how 40,000 psi of a high energy powder (2400) and a buttery soft Keith HP changed shape to almost a lead cylinder! This re-shape phenomena may or may not be bad in a less extreme case. As Larry points out.... if collapse (shortening) occurs EVENLY for a balanced projectile all is good, maybe even better!

90% if not more, of the downrange accuracy capability of our boolit occurs in the first few fractions of an inch travel in just microseconds of time during launch. This has been my experience for over a half century now. Many mechanical things can be 'worked' on both in boolit and gun to achieve the best result; that's the fun of it for this ol' boy!

Maybe the oldtimers had something by "breech seating" their cast boolits over a hundred years' ago, huh?

Eutectic

Probably less response to Larry's theory because of the bug holes I've shot with my 6.5 Grendel at HV with WQ'ed bullets. In other words I'm not totally buying the theory. The bug holes I shot with the Finn 39 were with WQ'ed bullets. I've shot both kinds of bullets in my other three 6.5's with same results. It's not proven and from the shooting I've done, along with 45 2.1, and other's ..it's kind of unproven too.

As for the breach loading of the bullet back in the old days I believe they knew about starting the bullet straight and engraveing the rifling. If you don't believe that maybe this will convince you ...the false loading muzzles on muzzle loaders for starting the bullet straight into the bore and also protecting the crown.

How about jacketed bullets? They have more G's upon them like in the super HV rounds clipping over 4000 fps. Don't tell me the copper jacket is that much protection.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I take it you use something with less "lubricity" than Pufflon that creates more restriction at the case neck and thus higher chamber pressures?

Gear

I haven't nailed it down exactly yet but I did start out with the wrong filler and got mighty discouraged fast. There's no doubt the bottle neck configuration of the cartridge plays a big role in this technique.

I thought 45 2.1 told you to pm him? Did you get anything out of that?

Joe

[geargnasher]

Quote "Maybe the oldtimers had something by "breech seating" their cast boolits over a hundred years' ago, huh?

Eutectic"

....And that's also why the ASSRA and other Schuetzen fans still do. It eliminates a ton of variables.

Gear

[geargnasher]

I haven't nailed it down exactly yet but I did start out with the wrong filler and got mighty discouraged fast. There's no doubt the bottle neck configuration of the cartridge plays a big role in this technique.

I thought 45 2.1 told you to pm him? Did you get anything out of that?

Joe

I did. I await his reply.

You beat me to it on the breech seating comment above, I gotta learn to type faster!:killingpc

BTW I'm beginning to realize why you took the direction you did with lube development recently.

Gear

[StarMetal]

I did. I await his reply.

You beat me to it on the breech seating comment above, I gotta learn to type faster!:killingpc

BTW I'm beginning to realize why you took the direction you did with lube development recently.

Gear

Because they took our shop away when I was in high school due to merging with our rival school and not having enough space...I took a few years of typing class. Best thing I have done. Who would have known back in my prehistoric days they would invent the pc and keyboard in the future...which by the way has virtually destroyed the typewriter. By the way straight A's and up to 120 wpm (that's not wevolutions either) by graduation.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Eutectic

"Probably less response to Larry's theory because of the bug holes I've shot with my 6.5 Grendel at HV with WQ'ed bullets. In other words I'm not totally buying the theory. The bug holes I shot with the Finn 39 were with WQ'ed bullets. I've shot both kinds of bullets in my other three 6.5's with same results. It's not proven and from the shooting I've done, along with 45 2.1, and other's ..it's kind of unproven too."

There in lies the problem with some here. They talk of all the variables and how things don'e happen all the time. Joe even mentioned in a recent post that many have gotten away with things and something about it taking the right circumstances. Yet I did not state that WQ'd bullet always collapse or that they always collapsed unevenly. I also did not say it always happens. What I gave is the scenario for uneven collapse which happens often enough and is proveable. There are variables to most of what we do. The hard part is to control the variables in a positive way.

What is "good" to some perhaps is not so good to others. I'll give a simple example, both involving cast bullets at HV. I'm not looking for an argument here because the examples are "good" in their context. However, I did not consider them "good" in my context. The first is Joes targets he posted on the MAS semi auto. He and others though them "good". On the other hand they were not what I get or expect to get with that same bullet out of my rack M1A. With that rifle I expect 311314 to shoot into less than 3 moa on a regular basis at 2000+ fps without any magical or "dangerous" loading technique. I also shoot much better groups with 311466 at 2200+ fps simply because it has a 12" twist which helps control the RPM. It does not need any "technique" and they are proven loads loaded by most here all the time. The other example was BaBore's groups posted of his 22 Hornet loads at 2500+ fps (as I recall). They were basically 2 moa groups. BaBore considers that "good" and so did others. Perhaps it was if you are shooting PDs out to 150 yards or wood chucks. However, 2 moa is not "good" to me as I shoot picket pins (Columbia graound squirrels) with my 22 Hornet. When lying down they give a 1" tall target and when standing up that target isn't much more than 1" wide eighter. Thus a 1 moa load is pretty much maxed out at 100 yards and may give 70-80% hits out to 150 yards. A 2 moa group gets you maxed out at 75 yards. Thus "good" is relative, what is "good" to some is not "good" to others.

I also shoot 311466 into 10 shot 2 moa groups at 2600+ fps out of a 14" twist barrel with normal loads because the RPMs are controlled and below the RPM threshold. The first 5 shots almost always go into 1 moa. That is at 100 and 200 yards. To me that is "good". To Joe and a couple others it isn't worth mentioning. See what I meen about "good" being relative?

But back to the main point; Joe has his doubts and that is fine. After all, he is one who says there are no rules and yet doubts my "theory" because it doesn't happen all the time, i.e. a rule. It is not a rule nor is it theory, it is merely an explanation as to how set back or collapse happens when it happens. It is proven, you proved it with the .44 bullet. Glad you understand even if Joe doesn't.

Larry Gibson

Joe; this is all I'm saying on the subject here so say your piece and let's just let it go, you have your theories, I have mine...fair enough:-)

[swheeler]

Probably less response to Larry's theory because of the bug holes I've shot with my 6.5 Grendel at HV with WQ'ed bullets. In other words I'm not totally buying the theory. The bug holes I shot with the Finn 39 were with WQ'ed bullets. I've shot both kinds of bullets in my other three 6.5's with same results. It's not proven and from the shooting I've done, along with 45 2.1, and other's ..it's kind of unproven too.

As for the breach loading of the bullet back in the old days I believe they knew about starting the bullet straight and engraveing the rifling. If you don't believe that maybe this will convince you ...the false loading muzzles on muzzle loaders for starting the bullet straight into the bore and also protecting the crown.

How about jacketed bullets? They have more G's upon them like in the super HV rounds clipping over 4000 fps. Don't tell me the copper jacket is that much protection.

Joe

That's the problem with theories, you can shoot them full of holes.

[StarMetal]

Eutectic

"Probably less response to Larry's theory because of the bug holes I've shot with my 6.5 Grendel at HV with WQ'ed bullets. In other words I'm not totally buying the theory. The bug holes I shot with the Finn 39 were with WQ'ed bullets. I've shot both kinds of bullets in my other three 6.5's with same results. It's not proven and from the shooting I've done, along with 45 2.1, and other's ..it's kind of unproven too."

There in lies the problem with some here. They talk of all the variables and how things don'e happen all the time. Joe even mentioned in a recent post that many have gotten away with things and something about it taking the right circumstances. Yet I did not state that WQ'd bullet always collapse or that they always collapsed unevenly. I also did not say it always happens. What I gave is the scenario for uneven collapse which happens often enough and is proveable. There are variables to most of what we do. The hard part is to control the variables in a positive way.

What is "good" to some perhaps is not so good to others. I'll give a simple example, both involving cast bullets at HV. I'm not looking for an argument here because the examples are "good" in their context. However, I did not consider them "good" in my context. The first is Joes targets he posted on the MAS semi auto. He and others though them "good". On the other hand they were not what I get or expect to get with that same bullet out of my rack M1A. With that rifle I expect 311314 to shoot into less than 3 moa on a regular basis at 2000+ fps without any magical or "dangerous" loading technique. I also shoot much better groups with 311466 at 2200+ fps simply because it has a 12" twist which helps control the RPM. It does not need any "technique" and they are proven loads loaded by most here all the time. The other example was BaBore's groups posted of his 22 Hornet loads at 2500+ fps (as I recall). They were basically 2 moa groups. BaBore considers that "good" and so did others. Perhaps it was if you are shooting PDs out to 150 yards or wood chucks. However, 2 moa is not "good" to me as I shoot picket pins (Columbia graound squirrels) with my 22 Hornet. When lying down they give a 1" tall target and when standing up that target isn't much more than 1" wide eighter. Thus a 1 moa load is pretty much maxed out at 100 yards and may give 70-80% hits out to 150 yards. A 2 moa group gets you maxed out at 75 yards. Thus "good" is relative, what is "good" to some is not "good" to others.

I also shoot 311466 into 10 shot 2 moa groups at 2600+ fps out of a 14" twist barrel with normal loads because the RPMs are controlled and below the RPM threshold. The first 5 shots almost always go into 1 moa. That is at 100 and 200 yards. To me that is "good". To Joe and a couple others it isn't worth mentioning. See what I meen about "good" being relative?

But back to the main point; Joe has his doubts and that is fine. After all, he is one who says there are no rules and yet doubts my "theory" because it doesn't happen all the time, i.e. a rule. It is not a rule nor is it theory, it is merely an explanation as to how set back or collapse happens when it happens. It is proven, you proved it with the .44 bullet. Glad you understand even if Joe doesn't.

Larry Gibson

Joe; this is all I'm saying on the subject here so say your piece and let's just let it go, you have your theories, I have mine...fair enough:-)

Larry,

Let me say this first. We're not going to argue anymore. Have you realized we're been giving a lot of bored and hungry members a free show? Yup..we have Larry. No more shows boys!! For the record I don't hate Larry either.

Okay...Larry I'm fine with you having your theories and me mine. There's probably truth in both of them. Gun nuts like us are set in our ways and also very determined. Perhaps that instilled thing is what has made the figthing men of our country feared and respected. We beat the best in the past. Yes we couldn't beat the politicians in D.C. over Nam.

Now I did think the group with the MAS was good for what it was. I think the 312284i s a bit much bullet for the 308 especially one with a 19 inch barrel. I didn't have the powders I wanted to use in it so just started off with the 4895 wanting to see really what the new scope mount and scope would do on this rifle. Actually I've shot almost the same groups with the peep sights on it and the Lee 312 155. As you know the MAS has a four groove left hand twist of 1 in 11. I reckon the French seen that as a compromise between what an 06 and 308 run. Am I satisfied with that group? No way no how. I want a hole or close too it. I also don't think I'm going to get that big heavy 311284 up to any blistering velocity...do you? Thus another reason for a lighter bullet. I'm fascinated with the rifle and I'll do somemore work on it. One thing about the technique...I use in where ever I can for one of many reason. One main one is it sure keep your bore as clean as possible. I wasn't expecting to make that particular rifle shoot a bug hole with the 311284, although that bullet does out of my 06 and Krag.

So you can keep on posting Larry to what I post. No hassle from me anymore.

Regards
Joe

[Eutectic]

As for the breach loading of the bullet back in the old days I believe they knew about starting the bullet straight and engraveing the rifling. If you don't believe that maybe this will convince you ...the false loading muzzles on muzzle loaders for starting the bullet straight into the bore and also protecting the crown.

How about jacketed bullets? They have more G's upon them like in the super HV rounds clipping over 4000 fps. Don't tell me the copper jacket is that much protection. ??

Joe

I thought I brought up breech seating as a good idea? Glad it pleased you and others Joe! Have you tried it by the way? It does work rather well if your breech seating tooling is sized correctly and CONCENTRIC. I suppose if I still shot in any shoots I would still do it... But it is SO inconvenient in the field where most of my load development goes these days.. I have another method almost as good. I have a .375 Winchester single shot. The groove diameter is .3755" I size 375449 boolits to .377". I usually cast out of wheel weights with tin upped to 2%. I cut a long throat in this barrel that mikes .3777" The boolit touches the lands with only 1/8" seated into the case! YES they are fragile and a pain in the field with all lube basically exposed as well but it is doable with care. I load them hot... probably about 40,000psi and they shoot! Do they experience longitudinal shortening as we have discussed?? I am rather certain they do! But they are held concentric by design! Your load may have the boolit shortening up too Joe. I think I've said more than once a load can shoot most excellently with this taking place!

I've attached Speer's take on this of what we speak. With jacketed no less! The jacket is the ONLY thing that kept deformation from going "wild" in the photo! The core material is 2 or 3% Sb I would imagine... 3150fps is faster than we shoot boolits.... well... at least most of us!

If your load is shooting great I'm happy for you Joe but it in no way proves shortening isn't taking place. Consider yourself blessed it is happening concentric and balanced if in fact it is happening.

Eutectic

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/inertia2.jpg

[45 2.1]

I did. I await his reply.


You said: I'll give you the details of what I've done later but bedtime calls.

Still waiting on the details................

[StarMetal]

I thought I brought up breech seating as a good idea? Glad it pleased you and others Joe! Have you tried it by the way? It does work rather well if your breech seating tooling is sized correctly and CONCENTRIC. I suppose if I still shot in any shoots I would still do it... But it is SO inconvenient in the field where most of my load development goes these days.. I have another method almost as good. I have a .375 Winchester single shot. The groove diameter is .3755" I size 375449 boolits to .377". I usually cast out of wheel weights with tin upped to 2%. I cut a long throat in this barrel that mikes .3777" The boolit touches the lands with only 1/8" seated into the case! YES they are fragile and a pain in the field with all lube basically exposed as well but it is doable with care. I load them hot... probably about 40,000psi and they shoot! Do they experience longitudinal shortening as we have discussed?? I am rather certain they do! But they are held concentric by design! Your load may have the boolit shortening up too Joe. I think I've said more than once a load can shoot most excellently with this taking place!

I've attached Speer's take on this of what we speak. With jacketed no less! The jacket is the ONLY thing that kept deformation from going "wild" in the photo! The core material is 2 or 3% Sb I would imagine... 3150fps is faster than we shoot boolits.... well... at least most of us!

If your load is shooting great I'm happy for you Joe but it in no way proves shortening isn't taking place. Consider yourself blessed it is happening concentric and balanced if in fact it is happening.

Eutectic

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/inertia2.jpg

After reading Larry Gibson post on how they would get short and thinking about it, I do believe they get short. Now I'm one of the largest fired bullet collectors you've ever known. A fascination habit carried over from my childhood. Take my 6.5 Grendel using that 140 Saeco. That bullet is dang near 3/4 bore rider. I've shot it to little over 2500 fps. That's about the limit for that small case especially in the AR15. I've recovered fired bullet and the only place there are land marks on the bore riding nose are just right there in front of the first bearing band. The marks go just a little ways up the nose...not far at all, be lucky to make 3/32th's of an inch. So it's squatting some, not a lot.

Yes I have breach seated bullets. In fact my 140 Saeco in my 6.5x54MS because that rifle has a god awful long freebore. The result were mediocre.

Joe

[swheeler]

Eutectic; That photo of the bullet looks like a LIFE RAFT, see the wakes and turbulence behind it.

[Eutectic]

Eutectic; That photo of the bullet looks like a LIFE RAFT, see the wakes and turbulence behind it.

That turbulence you see behind the bullet in this old spark photo is lessened with a boattail bullet thus improving the long range performance as a point of interest.

Eutectic

[swheeler]

That turbulence you see behind the bullet in this old spark photo is lessened with a boattail bullet thus improving the long range performance as a point of interest.

Eutectic

Almost would bet it could be lessened even more with a rebate boat tail bullet or maybe even a Brenneke torpedo tailed looking slug, whatever they call them.

[45 2.1]

How to determine what granular filler does in your particular cartridge:

Take a funnel with about a 30 caliber hole in the spout and time how long it take to flow thru it for a standard volume (you determine what that volume is and use it for all filler tests). If it does not flow, take a poker and help it while timing it or note the difficulty in doing so. Record your results in a chart for your use.
Any filler that flows thru the funnel will likely not increase the pressure a lot by bridging in a bottle neck case. Straight walled cases are a different story as they seldom have to big of pressure increase due to filler bridging.
Any filler that wouldn’t flow thru the funnel will likely bridge in a bottle necked case and will have an effect on raising pressure according to how it compacts and flows thru the case neck. Fillers with larger grain sizes may bridge more and raise pressure faster.
How rough or smooth a filler is determines how it acts under pressure. Fillers with a lubricant coating or that are smooth and round will have less effect on pressure than those that are irregularly shaped or that are rough in texture.
Keep in mind you are still reducing cartridge case capacity anytime you are using filler. Data for the cartridge you’re using will probably be over pressure. Compare that data for a like caliber cartridge that has less capacity. The filler should occupy remaining space in the case regardless of the compression used.
Fillers can act quite differently depending on the amount they are compressed. Rough non-flowing fillers especially.
A lot of things have been used for fillers and there is quite a list of available fillers presently. Do you really want to run some of these thru your rifles bore? Some relatively soft fillers will polish the bore very bright and smooth which can be a good thing sometimes, BUT too much of a good thing can be bad carried to extremes. Rough fillers can have the opposite effect.
Use good judgment here as guessing can sometimes give you a big surprise. Use of any filler will probably increase the cartridges pressure. Don’t add it as an afterthought. Work up your load starting at a reasonable starting point.

[243winxb]

CAUTION: The following post may include loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The castboolits.gunloads, nor the staff of assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. 38 year old Lyman data-129gr cast w/gas check bullet #266455 #2 alloy. IMR 4895 start- 23gr. Max is 31gr @2105fps 18" bbl .No filler needed. Redding http://www.redding-reloading.com/ makes custom BR bushing dies/seaters. Lyman "M" die. Need brass, plenty here. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390109581 Making brass out of 30-06 to make tight necks? Not for the average guy, as neck turning might be needed. PLUS Huntington http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_caseform.html tells you NOT to do it.
The base diameter of this caliber(6.5mmx55) is much larger than the .30-06 or similar cases and therefore cannot be safely used for forming. Norma cases or ammunition in the respective caliber is recommend. As far as killing water jugs or 1gal paint cans, did that with a 1903 Springfield (new GI Bbl.), cast bullets, flip up GI sights @300 yds. IMR 4895. And no i dont load the 6.5mm [smilie=l:

[243winxb]

I like this post, direct and to the point.
There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves. ... felix

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=243winxb;767139]CAUTION: . Need brass, plenty here. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390109581 Making brass out of 30-06 to make tight necks? Not for the average guy, as neck turning might be needed. PLUS Huntington http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_caseform.html tells you NOT to do it.

did you actually read WHY he used the '06 brass, and the cautions he listed ?



some time i think people just like to see thier names in print.


mike in co

[StarMetal]

How to determine what granular filler does in your particular cartridge:

Take a funnel with about a 30 caliber hole in the spout and time how long it take to flow thru it for a standard volume (you determine what that volume is and use it for all filler tests). If it does not flow, take a poker and help it while timing it or note the difficulty in doing so. Record your results in a chart for your use.
Any filler that flows thru the funnel will likely not increase the pressure a lot by bridging in a bottle neck case. Straight walled cases are a different story as they seldom have to big of pressure increase due to filler bridging.
Any filler that wouldn’t flow thru the funnel will likely bridge in a bottle necked case and will have an effect on raising pressure according to how it compacts and flows thru the case neck. Fillers with larger grain sizes may bridge more and raise pressure faster.
How rough or smooth a filler is determines how it acts under pressure. Fillers with a lubricant coating or that are smooth and round will have less effect on pressure than those that are irregularly shaped or that are rough in texture.
Keep in mind you are still reducing cartridge case capacity anytime you are using filler. Data for the cartridge you’re using will probably be over pressure. Compare that data for a like caliber cartridge that has less capacity. The filler should occupy remaining space in the case regardless of the compression used.
Fillers can act quite differently depending on the amount they are compressed. Rough non-flowing fillers especially.
A lot of things have been used for fillers and there is quite a list of available fillers presently. Do you really want to run some of these thru your rifles bore? Some relatively soft fillers will polish the bore very bright and smooth which can be a good thing sometimes, BUT too much of a good thing can be bad carried to extremes. Rough fillers can have the opposite effect.
Use good judgment here as guessing can sometimes give you a big surprise. Use of any filler will probably increase the cartridges pressure. Don’t add it as an afterthought. Work up your load starting at a reasonable starting point.



Well there you go guys....thanks 45 2.1. Now I know what he's talking about. Not to be arrogant or smug...some of you will not get that.

Joe

[StarMetal]

[QUOTE=243winxb;767139]CAUTION: . Need brass, plenty here. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390109581 Making brass out of 30-06 to make tight necks? Not for the average guy, as neck turning might be needed. PLUS Huntington http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_caseform.html tells you NOT to do it.

did you actually read WHY he used the '06 brass, and the cautions he listed ?



some time i think people just like to see thier names in print.


mike in co

Thanks Mike...but not to worry. Both myself, 45 2.1, and 44man (and others) can hit that milk jug with a revolver with open sights. My revolver being my Smith Model 25 45 Colt.

Joe

[swheeler]

"IMR 4895 start- 23gr. Max is 31gr @2105fps 18" bbl .No filler needed." by 243wxbr
Try that load in Swede and report back how it groups, get a big target.

[Larry Gibson]

Well there you go guys....thanks 45 2.1. Now I know what he's talking about. Not to be arrogant or smug...some of you will not get that.

Joe

Would be nice if you two would take the "guessing" out of all this and just name the filler you are using.

From the above description I've just wasted $38 and a weeks time getting a non-useable filler. It does not flow well at all and that information was not on the makers site.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

"IMR 4895 start- 23gr. Max is 31gr @2105fps 18" bbl .No filler needed." by 243wxbr
Try that load in Swede and report back how it groups, get a big target.

swheeler is quite correct; going well past the RPM threshold will eat that load's accuracy alive, been there, done that, several times and so have a great many others.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Assuming what can or can't be done because of a supposed unproved idea is basically a lack of good technique and assuming you know what is actually happening (which is problematical by the results that you have shown). If I named the filler, it still wouldn't do you any good because of your technique. Several people who actually know the filler and method used couldn't make it work their way, until they followed the directions I gave. Several fillers can be used to gain HV and accuracy, the technique needs to be adjusted for each though because they each react differently. You might actually have the right filler, give them a try. Felix posted an excellent synopsis of what the situation is, read it for enlightenment.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Thank you for responding....finally. I have been in contact with a couple of the "several people" who know. I have the filler and am following your directions to the "T". Yes felix is right, there are no "secrets". I do believe I and others have been telling you that for some time.

I'm sure if I succeed you will take all of the credit and if I fail you will proffer some excuse such as "technique" for for the reason. It seems as if you are already seemingly doing that. Reminds me of witch doctors and medicine men making warriors imune to bullets. They gave the magic potions or spells but always had that caveat; don't drink , don't fornicate or don't be afraid. Then when all the warriors were killed by bullets the witch doctor could say; they must have drank, fornicated or were afraid. Who is to argue, eh?

At any rate this old warrior ain't afraid (not admitting to anything about the other two;-) ) to run the test. As the Mex M98 SR with Swede M38 6.5 barrel on it is all hooked up to the M43 Oehler PBL we shall also have velocity and a lot of pressure data to look at. My first test will be with the 2 powders starmetal said he used. The cases are as discussed and of which I mention having done for years in the Cast Pics article. Should prove interesting, just waiting for the rain to stop.

All that aside I really do appreciate your assistance, I think we all do. With all of us working together on projects such as this and sharing information we can advance our knowledge of cast bullets and shooting them. I would ask that you take starmetlal up on his offer to write the "how to's" of what you do for all of us.

Larry Gibson

[Russel Nash]

So this whole thread has been about someone's super secret squirrel use of filler in a rifle case to boost velocity?

:confused:

Would somebody please send me a PM with the secret handshake or decoder ring?

:bigsmyl2:

[Bass Ackward]

Sometimes it is best to go away and then come back to get the best impression. And this is my last word because this is supposed to be a narrow thread.

Filler is NOT a cure all. And it will work less or not at all depending upon if you understand why you are using it.

I would say that most people have trouble determining the "beginning" powder speed to try. I NEVER found HV accuracy in any cartridge with a powder faster than RL15. Not that I didn't try, but faster powders are like smaller case capacities, they destabilize bore conditions faster than larger case capacities and slower powders do. In other words, accuracy windows are smaller, they are much more finicky, and come with a bigger RPM monster at lower levels. Or fewer shots.

So filler will only be effective if you let it be. My formula for determining powder speed is the powder that produces the highest velocity with a jacketed bullet of the same bullet weight minus two IMR powder classes. If that jacketed powder is 4064 , then the powder speed ceiling is 4350. The world is open to you if you stay below 4350. And a general rule is to stay away from balls at these really low pressures.

Now I understand this establishes limits for allot of calibers. If your caliber or barrel length will not permit the velocity level that you crave with the proper speed powder, then you either need a lighter bullet, lower your expectations, or a different gun. You will only ever achieve marginal results if you have to push the pressure curve.

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with Bass as that has been my finding throughout the years also.

I'll add just one thing; that is, with powders at or slower than 4895/RL15, if the powder is below 85% loading density (to base of cartridge neck, not the case mouth) then a filler most often (not always but most often) improves ignition consistency. That isn't saying that the filler always increases accuracy either but most often it does.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Sometimes it is best to go away and then come back to get the best impression. And this is my last word because this is supposed to be a narrow thread.

Filler is NOT a cure all. And it will work less or not at all depending upon if you understand why you are using it.

I would say that most people have trouble determining the "beginning" powder speed to try. I NEVER found HV accuracy in any cartridge with a powder faster than RL15. Not that I didn't try, but faster powders are like smaller case capacities, they destabilize bore conditions faster than larger case capacities and slower powders do. In other words, accuracy windows are smaller, they are much more finicky, and come with a bigger RPM monster at lower levels. Or fewer shots.

So filler will only be effective if you let it be. My formula for determining powder speed is the powder that produces the highest velocity with a jacketed bullet of the same bullet weight minus two IMR powder classes. If that jacketed powder is 4064 , then the powder speed ceiling is 4350. The world is open to you if you stay below 4350. And a general rule is to stay away from balls at these really low pressures.

Now I understand this establishes limits for allot of calibers. If your caliber or barrel length will not permit the velocity level that you crave with the proper speed powder, then you either need a lighter bullet, lower your expectations, or a different gun. You will only ever achieve marginal results if you have to push the pressure curve.


John,

Maybe you should have tried the faster powders. My 6.5 Grendel reaches HV accuracy with 4198 and that 6.5x54MS done it with 4895. So I don't concur with you on that point. I might add you're off base on what you said of the ball powders.

There is no gaurantee to accuracy even if we are discussing jacketed bullets because each gun is a law into itself.

Joe

[StarMetal]

So this whole thread has been about someone's super secret squirrel use of filler in a rifle case to boost velocity?

:confused:

Would somebody please send me a PM with the secret handshake or decoder ring?

:bigsmyl2:

Rus,

It's more then just the filler....haven't you noticed, for example, using the 06 brass for thicker tunable necks? So filler, powder, thicker case necks, alloy....and gee probably more.

Joe
P.S. Rus ship 10 UPC symbols from Kelloggs Corn Flake boxes to
me for your filler decoder ring. :kidding:

[243winxb]

Larry Gibson
Quote:
Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
"IMR 4895 start- 23gr. Max is 31gr @2105fps 18" bbl .No filler needed." by 243wxbr
Try that load in Swede and report back how it groups, get a big target.
swheeler is quite correct; going well past the RPM threshold will eat that load's accuracy alive, been there, done that, several times and so have a great many others.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson[/QUOTE] But in your article you say this about the 266455.:confused:
My experience with numerous of them has narrowed my choice down to 266455 which is a Lyman Lovern design with no bore riding nose. That 266455 design fits the case neck and throat of all 4 of my 6.5 Swedes perfectly and with no bore riding nose to contend with it has proven to be the most accurate design for the 6.5 Swede up through 2000 fps. Cast of most alloys it runs from 125 -130 gr in weight with GC and lube. It has provided me with the best accuracy across a broad spectrum of velocity in the fast twist Swede. Many find good accuracy with the other designs but most often it is in or below the RPM threshold. The Lyman Lovern design gives the best accuracy at higher velocities from the 6.5 Swede and also the same basic design gives the best accuracy in other calibers as well. [smilie=l: http://www.castpics.net/

[243winxb]

What fps is the RPM threshold at for the 266455 with a 7.5 twist bbl when using correct brass prep and powder. Never mind, i know.
I was not able to consistently duplicate any consistently accuracy load above 2000 fps. I am glad you did all that work/testing for us, it sure will help new shooter. Thank you Larry Gibson. P.S. Now if we just knew the secret filler and how much to use??

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Gibson But in your article you say this about the 266455.:confused: [smilie=l: http://www.castpics.net/[/QUOTE]

Note in the article I said "it has proven to be the most accurate design for the 6.5 Swede up through 2000 fps". Take it up to 2100 fps, especially without a filler of any sort, as is suggested by swheeler, and accuracy gets bad very quick as indicated. At 2000 fps that bullet out of the 6.5 Swede is already being pushed above the RPM threshold. Most find best accuracy down within the RPM threshold in the 1500-1700 fps range as I stated. Does that answer the question/:confused: or am I missing something?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

What fps is the RPM threshold at for the 266455 with a 7.5 twist bbl when using correct brass prep and powder. Never mind, i know. I am glad you did all that work/testing for us, it sure will help new shooter. Thank you Larry Gibson. P.S. Now if we just knew the secret filler and how much to use??

The twist in the 6.5 Swede is actually 7.9" and the RPM threshold is around 16-1700 fps depending on numerous things. I was able, in the previous tests you thanked me for (you're welcome) to push the RPM threshold (remember it is not a fixed "barrier" as some want to think) to 2000 fps. In my previous tests I was not able to get above that regardless of the powder used with any consistent accuracy. Most everyone else hasn't been able to either which brings us to this discusion withthose very few who claim to be able to with medium/slow powders and certain types of fillers.

As I stated to 45 2.1 I have a series of test loads ready to test. These are with the same type of bullet, same alloy, same fit, same lube, what is believed to be the same filler, same two previously mentioned successful powders and the same loading technique. The rifle used is an accurate rifle with a very good and accurate 6.5 Swede milsurp barrel. I not only will test for velocity and accuracy but also will be measuring the MAP psi and the time/pressure curve along with other things. I am waiting for the weather to clear to conduct the test.

If I am successful and verify the accuracy/velocity claims I will give a complete and concise report here, including the specific filler used. If I am not successfull I will try a few more powders and one other filler of the same type. At anyrate, sucessful or not I will give a concise report of my tests here.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

The twist in the 6.5 Swede is actually 7.9" and the RPM threshold is around 16-1700 fps depending on numerous things. I was able, in the previous tests you thanked me for (you're welcome) to push the RPM threshold (remember it is not a fixed "barrier" as some want to think) to 2000 fps. In my previous tests I was not able to get above that regardless of the powder used with any consistent accuracy. Most everyone else hasn't been able to either which brings us to this discusion withthose very few who claim to be able to with medium/slow powders and certain types of fillers.

As I stated to 45 2.1 I have a series of test loads ready to test. These are with the same type of bullet, same alloy, same fit, same lube, what is believed to be the same filler, same two previously mentioned successful powders and the same loading technique. The rifle used is an accurate rifle with a very good and accurate 6.5 Swede milsurp barrel. I not only will test for velocity and accuracy but also will be measuring the MAP psi and the time/pressure curve along with other things. I am waiting for the weather to clear to conduct the test.

If I am successful and verify the accuracy/velocity claims I will give a complete and concise report here, including the specific filler used. If I am not successfull I will try a few more powders and one other filler of the same type. At anyrate, sucessful or not I will give a concise report of my tests here.

Larry Gibson


Wonder why Lyman, in their cast manual, state the twist of the Swede at 7.5 along with the 6.5MS too? Where'd they get that from?

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Wonder why Lyman, in their cast manual, state the twist of the Swede at 7.5 along with the 6.5MS too? Where'd they get that from?

Joe

I have no idea where that comes fro. I accepted it as gospel for years then Dutchman corrected me a few years back. I went and actually measured them (all 4 of my 6.5 Swede barrels) and damned if he wasn't correct! My guess is some "authority" made a mistake or a guess at the conversion from metric to inches and everyone went with that. I've no idea where the 7.5" twist got started from but I doubt we'll see it changed, just thought I'd throw it out in that last post to explain where the RPM threshold usually is for the Swede.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I have no idea where that comes fro. I accepted it as gospel for years then Dutchman corrected me a few years back. I went and actually measured them (all 4 of my 6.5 Swede barrels) and damned if he wasn't correct! My guess is some "authority" made a mistake or a guess at the conversion from metric to inches and everyone went with that. I've no idea where the 7.5" twist got started from but I doubt we'll see it changed, just thought I'd throw it out in that last post to explain where the RPM threshold usually is for the Swede.

Larry Gibson

That puts my 6.5x54MS very close to a Swede in twist then. My MS is 1in8.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

That puts my 6.5x54MS very close to a Swede in twist then. My MS is 1in8.

Joe

That would appear so.

Larry Gibson

[robertbank]

Larry did you happen to mesure the twist rate in centimeters per meter? Not sure if it would mean much to me or anyone else in N.A. I grew up using the English measurement system and while I now think temperature in C. and snow in milimeters everything else is in ounces and feet.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

Larry did you happen to mesure the twist rate in centimeters per meter? Not sure if it would mean much to me or anyone else in N.A. I grew up using the English measurement system and while I now think temperature in C. and snow in milimeters everything else is in ounces and feet.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

Not sure what you mean but one turn in 7.9 inches would be one turn in 20.066 centimeters, or one turn in .20066 meters, or one turn in 200.66 millimeters.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Larry did you happen to mesure the twist rate in centimeters per meter? Not sure if it would mean much to me or anyone else in N.A. I grew up using the English measurement system and while I now think temperature in C. and snow in milimeters everything else is in ounces and feet.

Take Care

Bob

Ok, now I'M confused. The ratios in twist rate refer to one revolution per "X" distance (in whatever unit designated).

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Larry did you happen to mesure the twist rate in centimeters per meter? Not sure if it would mean much to me or anyone else in N.A. I grew up using the English measurement system and while I now think temperature in C. and snow in milimeters everything else is in ounces and feet.

Take Care

Bob

Sorry Bob, I'm an inches sort of guy. Besides, the metric system is a communist conspiracy to corrupt the moral fiber of America's youth. We haven't won a war since we started thinking in meters and kilometers. Look at what we did in WWII using inches, feet and yards. We saved the free world.....[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

For S&Gs I just went out and remeasured the twist in the Swede barrel in the Mex action again, 3 times....yup it's 7.9".

[Russel Nash]

You guys sure do go through a lot of trouble to feed a 6.5mm Mauser.

Why not just buy the right brass from the get-go and use (gasp!) j-word bullets?

:mrgreen:

[StarMetal]

You guys sure do go through a lot of trouble to feed a 6.5mm Mauser.

Why not just buy the right brass from the get-go and use (gasp!) j-word bullets?

:mrgreen:

Rus,

There is no good commercial brass that has a thick enough neck. It's even hard finding commercial brass that's fat enough in the web area.

I did a test with my bug hole grouping 06 brass in my Swede and that test was to take that load and assemble it in commercial Swede brass. I did the same thing to the 6.5x54MS. God only knows I don't want to do all that work to prepare 06 brass, especially in the 6.5x54MS because I have to swage the web area down too in a special die I made. Results of the tests were accuracy went bye bye. Did I try tailoring the loads? Oh you betcha. To give you an idea of that I make my 6.5 gas checks from aluminum flashing. This past summer I went through a 12"x10' sheet of the stuff trying to get my commercial brass to shoot.

That why all the trouble to make the Swede shoot. This is shoot HV, not the lower range loads.

Joe

[Russel Nash]

So what you're saying then is you can't take commercially available 6.5 brass and load it with a copper jacketed bullet and make it zip out any faster than your lead pro-jo's.....because..... why again?

A case head will separate??

[Marlin Hunter]

So this whole thread has been about someone's super secret squirrel use of filler in a rifle case to boost velocity?

:confused:

Would somebody please send me a PM with the secret handshake or decoder ring?

:bigsmyl2:



I thought it was a about boolit obturation?

[StarMetal]

So what you're saying then is you can't take commercially available 6.5 brass and load it with a copper jacketed bullet and make it zip out any faster than your lead pro-jo's.....because..... why again?

A case head will separate??

Rus,

No, not saying that at all. Talking strictly cast here. They shoot good with jacketed and commercial Swede brass. No they aren't prone to head separation. The are very well made rifles with some weird dimensions here and there. They have a fat neck portion to the chamber and they have pretty deep rifling to name a few.

Joe

[robertbank]

Sorry Bob, I'm an inches sort of guy. Besides, the metric system is a communist conspiracy to corrupt the moral fiber of America's youth. We haven't won a war since we started thinking in meters and kilometers. Look at what we did in WWII using inches, feet and yards. We saved the free world.....[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

For S&Gs I just went out and remeasured the twist in the Swede barrel in the Mex action again, 3 times....yup it's 7.9".

Well you had a little help from your friends on the WW11 thing.

I just asked to see if anyone knew how the Europeans measure their rate of twist. I suspect it is in MM per meter but I don't know. The Swede most certainly was mesaured in metric that is why I asked. Not sure it matters to much but I would doubt the conversion would work out to the nearest tenth of an inch. Seldom does. Only matter I fgues if you are being really finicky.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

Bob

Don't get your dander up please, that was all in fun. Half of my relation are Canadians. Besides if memory serves me right Canada was still into inches and yards during WWII(?). I also have trained and served with the PPLI and your airborne outfit before it was stood down, all good men and soldiers.

Larry Gibson

[robertbank]

Bob

Don't get your dander up please, that was all in fun. Half of my relation are Canadians. Besides if memory serves me right Canada was still into inches and yards during WWII(?). I also have trained and served with the PPLI and your airborne outfit before it was stood down, all good men and soldiers.

Larry Gibson

LOL, All in fun. The PPCLI ar still active and are over in Afghanistan right now as you likely know. After the Liberals stood down the Airbourne the Conservatives have resurrected the outfit in all but name. They formed a Special Forces regiment which is not to be confused with the JT-F2 folks who operate in their own world.

I'll be interested to see how your tests turn out. I have used filler in my old .303 Brit with mixed results. I finally scoped my #4 to take my old eyes out of the accuracy equation. Now if I could do something about the rest of the body....

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

Well you had a little help from your friends on the WW11 thing.

I just asked to see if anyone knew how the Europeans measure their rate of twist. I suspect it is in MM per meter but I don't know. The Swede most certainly was mesaured in metric that is why I asked. Not sure it matters to much but I would doubt the conversion would work out to the nearest tenth of an inch. Seldom does. Only matter I fgues if you are being really finicky.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

I'm a member over on the French Board and of course the question comes up about the twist on various French rifles. A few of the members are French and they give it in millimeters, that one turn in so many millimeters.

Joe

[robertbank]

Thanks Joe. I knew there had to be a ratio of some kind.

Take Care

Bob

[Eutectic]

I just asked to see if anyone knew how the Europeans measure their rate of twist. I suspect it is in MM per meter but I don't know.
Bob

Bob,

As others have brought up... I as well am confused by your statement underlined in you quote above.... Millimeters per Meter might be a possible measurement I suppose if millimeters referred to advancement of an exact point (like a particular land location) around the circumference of the actual groove diameter of the barrel over a given length. But confusing and overly complex for me!

One turn or complete 360 degree revolution of the helix seems much more appropriate to me and works fine either in metric or inches. A gain twist could be an exception.

Looking at Joe's conversions maybe the Swede was engineered with a 1 in 20cm twist possibly? The point .066 is only about .030" or about 1/32" off from 7.9".

Eutectic

[robertbank]

Bob,

As others have brought up... I as well am confused by your statement underlined in you quote above.... Millimeters per Meter might be a possible measurement I suppose if millimeters referred to advancement of an exact point (like a particular land location) around the circumference of the actual groove diameter of the barrel over a given length. But confusing and overly complex for me!

One turn or complete 360 degree revolution of the helix seems much more appropriate to me and works fine either in metric or inches. A gain twist could be an exception.

Looking at Joe's conversions maybe the Swede was engineered with a 1 in 20cm twist possibly? The point .066 is only about .030" or about 1/32" off from 7.9".

Eutectic

Check Joe's post above. I think he confirmed it is one revolution per X millimeters.

Trying to get the exact conversion would give a rock a headache.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

If you look up the 6.5 Swede twist on the internet you get anything from 7.5 all the way up to 8.9. That's crazy. Interesting is that Lothar Walther sells barrels in two categories. One is American and the other European. The differences are the bores, grooves, and twist. With that said they list the European twist for the Swed at 8.9.

Yes above I gave the twist in mm's and cm's in one turn and also gave it instead of one turn, I gave it in one meter.


Joe

[robertbank]

Yes I googled it and got nowhere. YOu would think the twist rate would be on an European site but I couoldn't find it.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

Ask the Dutchman here, I'm sure he knows.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Ask the Dutchman here, I'm sure he knows.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Talked to my Lothar Walther friend. As you know on their website they have American barrels and European barrels. He told me the bores and twist for the European are official specifications to the original manufacturer. With that said the twist for the 6.5 Swede for their barrels is 8.9.

I told him I will have to get the cleaning rod and tight jag and see what mine reads. I'm not believing that.

Joe

[geargnasher]

I know both of my M96s come out to between 1:7.8-9", I just can't seem to get it much closer than that with a tight patch.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Talked to my Lothar Walther friend. As you know on their website they have American barrels and European barrels. He told me the bores and twist for the European are official specifications to the original manufacturer. With that said the twist for the 6.5 Swede for their barrels is 8.9.

I told him I will have to get the cleaning rod and tight jag and see what mine reads. I'm not believing that.

Joe

Unless someone cut an inch out of my ruler when I wasn't looking I'm not buying that either.

Larry Gibson