Need some perspective!

[helice]

:?:I have a nice angle eject 94 Win with the trapper barrel. Thanks to Lead melter's generocity I have been shooting only cast in it. (Ranch Dogs, Lazer casts and Lees) I keep hearing about the Ackley Improvement but can't quite figure out why one would "Improve" that short barreled rifle. Is there something there that I don't see? Keep writing Guys. I'm learning'. Helice

[jimkim]

I'm thinking of doing it to my and my son's rifles. My reason is because it extends case life. At least that is what I've heard.

[longbow]

I got to assume you are talking .30-30 improved.

If so I had a Savage .30-30/20 ga. reamed to .30-30 improved to get a little more poop out of it. In that case, I could also use spitzer bullets because there were no tube magazine issues.

Seemed to shoot very well but since I didn't have a chronograph in those days I have no idea what the increased velocity may have been. I believe it is typically about 100 FPS.

The two benefits are increased velocity and potentially longer brass life but just neck sizing should extend brass life.

FWIW

Merry Christmas and happy New Year!

Longbow

[pmeisel]

There have been a lot of write-ups on it over the years... unfortunately I lost a lot of old stuff in the move and can't quickly find the articles. A couple were in Gun Digest.

My take is that in some calibers it is an effective way to get a little more velocity, and 30/30 is one that will do it. But I don't think it would matter at all at cast boolit velocities. The reduction in case taper inhibits brass growth but makes the case a little less feed-friendly.

If I was shooting jacketed at full velocity and wanted the last little bit of range I could get I would consider it, but if I was mostly shooting cast at moderate velocity I wouldn't bother. YMMV.

Found this thread from not long ago on the subject:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=713151

If you want to read some more, try finding articles by Sam Fadala, I think he has written more about it than most, and his stuff is good reading anyway.

[Bass Ackward]

The biggest weakness on a lever is action is the strength and wear to hold the back thrust generated by the cartridge.

A tapered cartridge has more back thrust with the more taper the more back thrust. A straight case has virtually no back thrust so it's the pressure that the barrel can handle. The barrel is plenty strong enough to hold more pressure. And this is part of the increase in brass life as brass doesn't flow forward under pressure. If you ever read *** books, you knew he uped the pressure to generate the increased velocity levels he was observing.

So, if you can cut back thrust, you can run higher pressure and or increase gun life. And the sharper shoulder holds powder in the case better that improves ignition and burn rate. It is also supposed to cut throat wear from powder impact, but that's iffy from what I have seen. It still depends on the burn rate you use and the powder type more than anything.

[NickSS]

The improve chamber gives you slightly more case capacity and the cases do not stretch as much as the standard chamber but I do not think it will give you much advantage if you only shoot lead bullets in your rifle and in a carbine length barrel you probably will not reap as much extra power and you would with a longer tube.

[largom]

Would not gain much if anything with that short barrel.

Larry

[pls1911]

The beauty of the stock and standard 30/30 is that it's inexpensive to load and shoot... Brass included. Prior posts are absolutely correct regarding the marginal benefits in this case regarding powder capacity, velocity potential, and reduced case stretching.
However, I'd recommend a purchase of 500 or 1000 cases and don't worry about it.
Cases are resonably cheap, and with full house cast loads you'll still get several reloads before it's time to discard. I bought 1000 Shiny Remington once fired last year for $100 and tossed'em behing the other bags of 30-30 brass on the shelf.
I use the 30-30 and lead bullets for silhouette and casual competition as well as hunting, and don't sweat the loss of a few pieces from stretch or to brush bunnys.

I prefer to have a caliber I can go into any gas station or bar in remote areas and either buy a box from the shelf or trade the attendent a beer for a few rounds... the 30-30 and 30-06 are about it.

Ackley improved offers a MARGINAL improvement, but the inconvenience and expense just isn't worth the trouble to me...IMHO

[helice]

Thanks fellows

Great posts. I'm just keeping it just as it is. Totally satisfied with a Ranch Dog at 1950'/s. I'm saving my $$$$s for cases. Keep writing Guys. I'm Learning. Helice

[Bret4207]

Some of Ackleys Improved cases really boosted velocity, but then the case was radically reformed in those instances gaining large amounts of capacity. Read his books if you get a chance.

[NHlever]

I took a different path with added performance. I found a very light .308, and load it somewhere between 30-30, and .300 Savage velocities. It makes a very pleasant gun to shoot, and is quite accurate. The 20 inch barrel made it a bit muzzle light, but I drilled a couple of holes in the butt for balance.

[MtGun44]

If I remember correctly, 4% increase in case volume gives 1% increase in velocity.

For most examples of Ackley Improved any real, measured increases in velocity were
due to running at higher pressures. A very few gained more than the 4% in case
volume, or 1% in vel with the same pressures. Mostly done in the days when nobody
had a chrono, so you were free to believe the hyped numbers with no way of proving
what you had.

Bill

[EDK]

Thanks fellows

Great posts. I'm just keeping it just as it is. Totally satisfied with a Ranch Dog at 1950'/s. I'm saving my $$$$s for cases. Keep writing Guys. I'm Learning. Helice

Gunbroker.com. Seller is Nuts4Bolts. I bought 500 once fired 30/30 for $50 (or less) and he combines shipping in flat rate boxes. All clean, polished and not a bad one in the bunch. 45/70s were some higher, equal quality. (One of his stock photos is a grain bin full of brass and a scoop shovel!) Check him out for what you need in once fired brass.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Bret4207]

If I remember correctly, 4% increase in case volume gives 1% increase in velocity.

For most examples of Ackley Improved any real, measured increases in velocity were
due to running at higher pressures. A very few gained more than the 4% in case
volume, or 1% in vel with the same pressures. Mostly done in the days when nobody
had a chrono, so you were free to believe the hyped numbers with no way of proving
what you had.

Bill


Very true Bill, some of his numbers bear review. But in cases like the 25/35 Win Imp you got some very large changes. Of course the case and neck were blown way out and they had a large increase in capacity.

[pmeisel]

Ackley himself said in his writings that a lot of cartridges weren't worth "improving". But like Bret said, some of them gave large increases that were worthwhile.

I have wanted the opportunity to try a 30/30 AI ever since I read a Sam Fadala article about it, maybe close to 20 years ago, he made it sound so good..