Direction of wrap...

[montana_charlie]

I thought somebody asked about which direction a patch should be wrapped when considering the twist of the rifling. Apparently it was buried within a discussion of other things, so I started this thread to concentrate on the question..because I have a newly acquired theory.

I fired a sequence of four bullets into a snowbank last spring. I used no fouling control measure other than the fact that there was a lube cookie in the load stack.
The cookie did not provide any detectable benefit, and the three subsequent bullets came out looking very cruddy.

But, they all shared a feature with the first one fired...fired from a clean barrel...and that feature was confusing to me. I didn't know what caused it.
Now, I think I do...

In this picture is the 'good one' from last spring (on the left) and a truly 'nice one' from last week. Note the slanted wrinkle dug into the 'old' one. The three which followed it had similar wrinkles, but they were much nastier.

The wrinkle on the left one happens to be at an angle which is almost perfectly perpendicular to the angle of my rifling...which has a right twist.
I think the patch (or at least the outer wrap) got shoved backward when it was being forced against the lands in the leade. Since that was occurring as the bullet moved forward, the gouging of the shank is at a point which is lower than the mouth of the case when the bullet is fully seated.
I think it was happening at the mouth of the case, but affected that part of the shank which was passing the mouth.

The bullet was patched in a clockwise direction (when viewed from the base). I believe the paper was loosened enough to crumple backward because the rifling was trying to 'unwind' the patch from the bullet.

The bullet on the right was wrapped counterclockwise. The patch was tightened by the rifling, and remained in position as the package passed through the leade.

Both bullets are from the same mould, and wrapped with the same paper. And, both were seated in the case to a depth which placed the leading edge of the patch in firm contact with the lands.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1700

[docone31]

Charlie, I appreciate it.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
I will bet, also, they do not tumble in flight.

[montana_charlie]

I will bet, also, they do not tumble in flight.
Over the course of the past summer I have shot some groups that were certainly nothing to write home about. But, I saw no indication of tumbling...even in the worst ones.

Judging by the shape of the grooves and ridges on the 'new' bullet, it's about the softest alloy I can get away with at that powder charge level.
CM

[RMulhern]

Direction of wrap!

Charlie

" And, both were seated in the case to a depth which placed the leading edge of the patch in firm contact with the lands."

As you have informed me of previously when I had asked you about whether you were patching to bore diameter or groove diameter.....the above comment tells me you're still sticking with the 'groove diameter'. I have no problems with that; do whatever you think works best for you. I wrap to bore diameter myself and also wrap the bullet in such a manner that the patch is 'tightened' as it is propelled through the tube. Initially I started using my method because when I researched about shooting PP I took the method being used by those that appeared to have more knowledge and success about shooting PP than I did and having done so I have had great success with employing said methods. As for your patch being possibly 'curled rearward' and leaving an undesired scar or mark upon the bullet.....I considered this possibility when attempting to decide whether to go the bore diameter or groove diameter route and I took the bore diameter route just because I figured that there was this possibility. The other deciding factor was that if patching to groove diameter.....the bullet has to be seated quite deeply into the case vs the bore diameter route whereby a heavier charge can be put into place without undue over-compression of the powder. All of the charges that I shoot in the .45/110 and .50/90 using Swiss 1F have no compression or at the most only about .125". Results have been received quite well!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to you sir...and the remainder of this board!!

[montana_charlie]

As you have informed me of previously when I had asked you about whether you were patching to bore diameter or groove diameter.....the above comment tells me you're still sticking with the 'groove diameter'.
Yessir, I am, Mr. Mulhern.
The factors which made me decide to try patching to groove are still present, so my experiments remain in that direction.

I wrap to bore diameter myself and also wrap the bullet in such a manner that the patch is 'tightened' as it is propelled through the tube.
I suspect that a bullet lying well up in the bore would be less likely to have 'wrinkle damage', but I think you are wise to ask the rifling to tighten the patch.
Patches glued to the bullet, starched with eggwhite, or laminated with lube, may not be so prone to unwind...so wrap direction may not be terribly important. But I haven't seen any clean recovered bullets that were fired using those practices...so who knows?

If I were to judge only by group size, I would have said that 'wrong wrapping' works fine...sometimes...so it's probably okay all of the time. Then I would run the gamut of variables, trying to find out why groups don't stay uniform.

Now, being able to see the difference in bullet appearance caused (I believe) by wrap direction, I hope to move on to developing a 'good load'...knowing that the bullet being launched is in good enough condition to be dependable.

I'd like to verify this wrapping thing with some more snowbank examples, but right now the drifts are sheathed in a thin layer of ice. I'm thinking that might cause enough impact distortion to mess up the results...

CM

[TwoTone]

The bullet was patched in a clockwise direction (when viewed from the base). I believe the paper was loosened enough to crumple backward because the rifling was trying to 'unwind' the patch from the bullet.

The bullet on the right was wrapped counterclockwise. The patch was tightened by the rifling, and remained in position as the package passed through the leade.



Hi Montana Charlie,

I've been lurking for quite a while and this is my first post. I've been reading all I can about paper patching and have read many of your posts.

With a bullet wrapped in a clockwise direction as viewed from the base and a barrel with right hand twist, the patch is being grabbed by the rifling and as the bullet travels down the bore the patch and therefore the bullet that its wrapped around is forced to accelerate in a clockwise direction as viewed from the base, which is the same direction of as the wrap.

The bullet's angular momentum resists this clockwise spin from the inside of the patch.

To me, this would be a tightening force on the patch, not an unwinding force.

Maybe I've got it all wrong but if I do I need to have it explained to me.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

[docone31]

I do not argure with the two contributions above. Not only are they decent folks, but they are the big boys!
However, I am not that uncertain it makes much difference. I do know however, results are consistant with the direction of wrap theory.
However, I have done the wrap in both directions. To clarify, I wrap for smokeless powder.
I have wrapped left, right, and have gotten the same results.
However, I also use a cigarette roller to wrap with. I get such a tight wrap with the roller it is amazing. That might be a factor.
I love it when those two guys pipe in. I have learned so much from them it is great!
I think, once the patch is in the rifleing, it has nowhere to go. The jump to leade is only a fraction of a second. I doubt there is much movement once in the rifleing, and if there is that much open space from case to rifleing, no patch is going to help it.
However, the results they have shown definately show, paper patching works!
That I am sure of.
I also only do smokeless.

[Don McDowell]

Looks to me like the bullet on the left wasn't patched as far up the ogive as the bullet on the right, and looking at the seperate engraving starts of the bullet on the left, I'ld also say it wasn't rolled as tight as the bullet on the right.

[leftiye]

Could it be possible that there are more variables here? I'm just guessing that the exposed edge of the patch should maybe be the trailing edge rather than the leading edge as it it forced through the barrel, so that friction doesn't tend to wad it up. And further that the direction of the angled end of the patch might better be across the rifling, or also trailing - rather than directly in line with the rifling where it would seem to be more likely to wad up? Or would the opposite maybe be true?

[303Guy]

Thank's for the thread, montana_charlie.

I had a thread asking that very question. I concluded that at the time, since there was no evidence one way or the other and therefore the choice was arbitrary, that I should patch in a direction that would assist in the unwrapping upon exit at the muzzle which also happens to be the direction that tightens rather than unwinds in the bore.

Something else I have found is that with dry wrapping the patch, even though stretching of the paper is greater than with wet wrapping, there is no bonding between the two wraps with dry wrapping and that wet wrapping tightens onto the casting way better. Dry wrapping is my preferred method but I may be forced back to wet wrapping (this being 303 and 25 cals). With the 25, I have difficulty seating the boolit without the core moving in the patch (no problem with unsized necks but I can't use those in the magazine).

[montana_charlie]

I'm just guessing that the exposed edge of the patch should maybe be the trailing edge rather than the leading edge as it it forced through the barrel, so that friction doesn't tend to wad it up.
I think your way of saying it is an excellent answer for Two Tone.

As the bullet is forced to spin, the end of the patch 'trails' the spin...which means it points away from the direction of rotation. That calls for a CCW wrap (viewed from the base) if the rifling is a right twist.

CM

[docone31]

Charlie,
What about the pressure of the powder charge?
You would have the drag back, but you will also have the patch retaining its mass, shape and weight during the firing cycle.
Once engraved, the projectile moves easier, while the pressure remains constant. This would force the patched load to keep its shape in regards to its base.
It is like a jacketed round. Once the copper in the jacket is engraved, it is not engraved further.
I suspect, the base paper around the perimeter gets rather solidly forced into shape.
Just a thought, and I have no way to validate this.
I am wondering also, if bore diameter is not an influence.
My little .30s, and .303s are some of the most forgiving wraps, once I got the diameter. Above, and below the diameter, it was a best guess where they landed.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie,
What about the pressure of the powder charge?
You would have the drag back, but you will also have the patch retaining its mass, shape and weight during the firing cycle.
Once engraved, the projectile moves easier, while the pressure remains constant. This would force the patched load to keep its shape in regards to its base.
It is like a jacketed round. Once the copper in the jacket is engraved, it is not engraved further.
I will say you are right in one thing. Whatever your package looks like once it has fully entered the bore...that is what is going to get pooped out through the muzzle.

As I said earlier, a patched to bore bullet lying up in the bore is unlikely to be so tormented by wrap direction.
But most of you guys...and I...are shooting patched to groove bullets that are seated fairly deeply in our cases. The only real difference between us is...I am using black powder. That may change how my alloy bumps up, but mostly it just means I have to deal with powder fouling that you guys can ignore.

The important part is...we all need a bullet to jump out of the case and through the 'throat' (whatever comprises that area you want to call 'throat').
So there is a point in the acceleration sequence (for you and for me) when the bullet is being 'introduced' to the lands, and they make it start to spin. During that introduction, the patch is not really supported by anything solid.
It's sliding through the neck of the brass (which has opened up to release the bullet)...and it's moving through the freebore (or whatever)...and it's being 'wedged' into the leade. It is not really 'welded' to the bullet's side until it's firmly in the bore.
If a wrinkle has formed before that point, it is going to gouge into the bullet and ride on out through the muzzle.

Try this...
Wrap a patch on a bullet using your normal technique, but don't use anything (lube and such) that causes the paper to stick to itself. Once it's dry, turn the bullet with the fingers of one hand by it's nose, while letting the fingers of the other hand cause a drag on the body of the patch.

If the bullet is turned in the same direction as your rifling makes it spin, see if the 'drag' smooths the trailing angle down on the bullet...or if it causes that angled end to lift off.

If your 'drag' fingers try to lift the angle, bear down hard enough to see if you can encourage the patch to unwind. (You can bet the rifling is going to exert that much pressure.)
If you can make the patch shift just a little, that will cause a wrinkle...especially when it happens at the speed and pressure during a firing sequence. Once the wrinkle starts, it will get worse until the bullet has fully entered the rifling.

From there on, what you have is what you launch.

Like I said when I started this...
I didn't know what caused those wrinkles in all of my bullets...and in some bullets I have seen from others.
As soon as I wrapped a bullet in the other direction...the wrinkle disappeared.

Looks to me like the bullet on the left wasn't patched as far up the ogive as the bullet on the right, and looking at the seperate engraving starts of the bullet on the left, I'ld also say it wasn't rolled as tight as the bullet on the right.
Yes, Don, the patch did not cover enough of the ogive. The right-hand pictured bullet was fired to see if I had that corrected.

Funny...I showed a bullet wrapped with the longer patch in a thread in a different discussion, and somebody (maybe you) said it was too far forward over the ogive. As it happens, it's just about right.

The 'old' bullet was wet patched...and therfore considerably tighter than the 'new' one. But, according to my new theory, the patch gets tighter when fired if it's put on in the right direction.

So...while the bullet was fired to test patch length at the ogive, the most valuable information it yielded was the absence of 'wrinkle damage'.

CM

[docone31]

Charlie, you present some great thoughts on patching. When I read Paul Mathews work, I couldn't communicate to present my ideas, questions, thoughts.
I love it.
Charlie, it is an honour.
Hope you and everyone else here has a Merry Christmas, and times find your family and people close to you in good health with hope in their hearts!
An Honour, and Merry Christmas, EVERYONE!

[Don McDowell]

Enlarging the photo also shows that the leading patch edge(left bullet) wasn't square with itself and left two impressions.
I don't recall saying anything about your patch being to far up the ogive, I do recall Kenny W telling somebody that in a thread about one of the BACO bullets tho.
Would really be interested in seeing a target and what sort of groups your getting with that bullet.
The BACO bullet I've been messing with in the 40's, the 40-65 shoots better patched to groove with black and the 405 is plumb happy with the bullet patched to the same .408 which is .003 under groove and useing smokeless. Neither rifle has turned up match quality accuracy with the bullet but certainly adequate for hunting to 300 yds.

[oso]

Try this...
Wrap a patch on a bullet using your normal technique, but don't use anything (lube and such) that causes the paper to stick to itself. Once it's dry, turn the bullet with the fingers of one hand by it's nose, while letting the fingers of the other hand cause a drag on the body of the patch.

If the bullet is turned in the same direction as your rifling makes it spin, see if the 'drag' smooths the trailing angle down on the bullet...or if it causes that angled end to lift off.

If your 'drag' fingers try to lift the angle, bear down hard enough to see if you can encourage the patch to unwind. (You can bet the rifling is going to exert that much pressure.)
If you can make the patch shift just a little, that will cause a wrinkle...especially when it happens at the speed and pressure during a firing sequence. Once the wrinkle starts, it will get worse until the bullet has fully entered the rifling.

CM

Try this . . .
Hold the boolit as inertia would and twist the patch each direction. Then ask the chicken and egg question: Does the rifling turn the patch first and the patch turns the boolit or does the rifling turn the boolit first and the boolit turns the patch?????

[montana_charlie]

Then ask the chicken and egg question: Does the rifling turn the patch first and the patch turns the boolit or does the rifling turn the boolit first and the boolit turns the patch?????
That's easy, oso.
The lands should never be able to touch the bullet. So, the patch is turned by the rifling and the bullet goes along for the ride.

The question being explored is whether the patch is tightened on the bullet by the rifling...or loosened enough to create wrinkle-caused damage on the bullet's shank.

A gouge in one side of a bullet means it can't be expected to fly straight.

Does that squeeze the egg out of your chicken?

CM

[Woodtroll]

Certainly not to argue with you Charlie, but I have wrapped both ways when I did more smokeless shooting, and never could tell much difference. I wrap clockwise (from the base of the bullet) for a right-hand twist, thinking the rifling would tighten the patch because...

As the bullet hits the rifling, it is moving forward, but inertia will try to keep it from rotating initially. The rifling is grabbing and trying to twist the patch to the right/ clockwise, and the bullet at least for a minute portion of travel is resisting this twisting, so I'm thinking that the patch will be twisted tighter initially. My opinion is that once it gets into the rifling, it is crushed in and can't twist or unwrap in any direction, as the bullet is still swelling under the gas pressure to the confines of the chamber and bore.

That's my logic, as poor as it may be, but I honestly don't think it matters much, as far as my testing can tell (but then, I'm not the world's best bench shot!). I think as long as the patch is not "glued" or stuck to the bullet, the many serrations are going to help the patch off no matter which way it is wrapped, so I don't think the wrap direction as an aid to patch shedding is an issue in rifles with strong rifling, anyway.

Just my thoughts...

[oso]

Woodtroll, you beat me!
The inertia of the patch is less than that of the boolit and the rifling turns the patch in the same direction as it will turn the boolit. So if the rifling is to tighten the patch the leading edge of the patch should face the direction of the spin.
I've wrapped both directions over the years and my target can't tell the difference; the confetti blows off either way. There hasn't been enough boolit left to examine in my rocky back stop. If have wrinkles in my patches, sometimes they don't roll on smoothly, I'll rewrap. I keep the base of the patch in the neck and seat to the lands. I worry more about damage to the patch if below the neck and if there is any jump to engagement than I do about the direction of the wrap.
I like chicken and I like eggs and I don't expect one from the other after cooking.

[docone31]

The pretense also, is, the wrapped item is of parallel sides, thereby offering no resistance during transition from static to engaged.
Once, the rifleing engages, rotation seperate from the wrapped item is minimized to almost -0-. One of the reasons I twist the tail, it provides a base. If the powder produces a power column, that will be a constant sans cavitation within the container. In other words, it provides a constant, void filling, ram effect.
Once again, I employ smokeless powder. I have not done Black Powder. I also do not yet wrap the size of those mentioned here.
I size to .314, the rifleing through the layers of the patch does indeed cut all the way through. Same with the one wrapped in .309.
I believe, the patch is cut and pushed into the casting, providing a cushion between the rifleing and the lead. There is an opening however for side forces to contact lead.
I suspect, there is a staggering force between ignition, and engraveing the rifleing. The patch does travel with the casting into the rifleing itself. Not only is there Kinetic energy, there is parasitic resistance of the patch itself. Wetting the patch does seem to have a bonding effect, if only lightly. The base also keeps the patch intact. Whether folded, or twisted, it will provide resistance to opening.
Now, that is not to say there is no effect of "cross patching". Where the rifleing, and the patch are at opposite purpose. I wonder, if perhaps, it is more of a vibration, rather than an unwrapping, that makes wrapping to rifleing needs more efficient.
Barrel harmonics, and projectile vibrations, or galling, has to have some effect on the projectile in motion. Coupled with the transition from being contained, to carrying the motion in an uncontained manner, vibration from transit might make a large difference.
I have also wrapped both ways. I have had wrinkles, short patches, long patches, they all seemed to do real well, once I got the sizeing in order. I have wrapped "backwards", I have wrapped with the patch inside out. I started with the base rather than the nose. They still performed better than jacketed. Some of my early wraps actually had the nose wrap start to come apart. I had wrapped them backwards! My twist locks it in, the backwards ones, the open end went to the ogive.
They did well, even with an "ear" up front.
This is absolutely fascinating. Shades of the 1800s. Jules Verne, the Rifle Club, pioneers in projectiles.
I love it.

[Lead pot]

Charlie I have a couple questions.
Both bullets loo like the patch was just about at the edge of the case mouth. I see two rings right at the bottom edge of the ogive where the shank starts.
The left bullet did you cam it into the throat with a cartridge seating tool?

As far as direction of wrap I have found no evidence of a patch slipping using Black powder in all bullets I recovered.
Drill a 1/16" hole through the case mouth before setting a bullet and look at it when you find it next spring and it will tell you just how far that bullet moved when the powder charge went off.
Also take a sharp knife and make a cut through the patch deep into the bullet right at the case mouth that also will tell you a lot just what is going on when a BP charge goes off about what that patch is doing.
That wrinkle in the left bullet I have never seen that low with all the recovered bullets I dug out of a snow bank that filled a 3 gallon bucket full.
I have found wrinkles close to the top of a bullet caused from a paper ring or lead ring. also when I patched to groove with a deep seated bullet and the patch caught the chamber end when I used a case seating tool that might have wedged between the case mouth and chamber end.
But that wrinkle looks more like it happened when the patch was applied and it happens more if the bullet was wet patched or you will find some like that when you patch the bore and a thread from the patch is left behind or seating a tight fitting bullet in the case and the patch gets pushed up.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie I have a couple questions.
Both bullets loo like the patch was just about at the edge of the case mouth. I see two rings right at the bottom edge of the ogive where the shank starts.
The left bullet did you cam it into the throat with a cartridge seating tool?

As far as direction of wrap I have found no evidence of a patch slipping using Black powder in all bullets I recovered.
I was hoping you would chime in, Kurt. Your practice of reading snowbank bullets has always seemed like a useful expenditure of time.
You've had opportunity to 'read' many more than I, so I've been hoping to hear your take on 'my theory'.

To answer the questions you asked...
The patch on both bullets was exposed by about .240" (perhaps .010" less on the left one).
The left bullet was less deep in the case, because of the shorter length of it's patch. It did not come so far out on the ogive. so the bullet had to seat out further to contact the lands. The difference in OAL was almost a tenth of an inch.
Both were seated so the paper firmly contacted lands (somewhere up inside the leade angle) when chambered.

The 'old one' looked about like this...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1707

The extra 'engraving' on the left bullet (ahead of the patch) is the result of bump up in the nose of the bullet. You can technically call that 'slump', but since it slumped straight back (visually even on all sides) I just call it bump up.
The right hand bullet (same alloy) did the same thing, but the patch was long enough to prevent steel/lead contact.

As for the 'stutter' at the leading edge of the patch, I suppose...
- The edges of both wraps were not quite even when wrapped.
...or...
- The leade angle shifted the outer wrap back a bit when chambered.

My other loaded rounds look nice and even, so I tend to suspect the latter.

I read everything else you had to say on the subject of 'direction', and will keep your remarks in mind as I continue the experiment...especially those which relate specifically to patched to groove loading.

CM

[303Guy]

... the many serrations are going to help the patch off no matter which way it is wrapped, so I don't think the wrap direction as an aid to patch shedding is an issue in rifles with strong rifling, anyway.Speaking of strong rifling brings to mind 'weak' rifling. Have a look at the rifling impressions left on these boolits!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-438F.jpg The leetle one is a 25.
The middle boolit is a 246.5grainer - with 99% weight retention.
The R/H one is also a 246.5grainer but at lower velocity and did not expand - until it hit the bottom of the wet sand pot! Fantastic penetration!

The rifling/bore on this rifle is so badly rust damaged that the chamber end is so large that a boolit that fits can be hand pressed into an unsized neck which then actually needs some force to chamber because it presses against the chamber wall! The bore is also tapered toward the muzzle where the rifling becomes better defined. OK then. There is no slip and the patch makes it to the muzzle where it comes apart just fine! (With soft alloy). The marvels of the paper patch!8-)

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-436F.jpgThat little sliver in the bottom R/H corner is the only bit of patch recovered.

[Lead pot]

Ok Charlie.

The bullet on the right is a good looking bullet. The patch rode with the bullet in fine shape and very good engraving. The only thing I would change is raising the patch a little more.

As far as slump, I don't see any.
A cast bullet will have some amount of bump up especially in the nose, even cast at 1/18 with your type of bullet when it is patched to bore diameter that bullet will shorten as much as .065, more with 1/30 alloy. the trick with your nose profile or longer you need to find the right alloy temper so that upset does not bend that ogive. When that happens you will have bullets plowing the ground in front and behind the target at the longer ranges.

When I patch to groove diameter I cant seat my bullet as deep as you do even with my .243 long taper. It will be seated right where the ogive taper ends at the case mouth.
I find that point by necking down a case to point that the bullet has a little drag but still moves then I measure the over all length or I will drop a bullet in the chamber and go the measuring rout.
But I seat my bullet patched to groove .010 deeper for a hunting load and that round will drop right into the chamber with out thumb pressure. When the throat starts to foul I just push in a dry bore mop and I'm good to go again for several shots.
Patching this way for a hunting load you can carry the rounds in a belt with out loosing a bullet and you can put a sealer on the patch to protect it from rain.

For target I patch my bullets .002-.004 over bore diameter depending on the rifle I'm using with the .005 degree tapered throat and I also patch to right at bore diameter.

Kurt

[montana_charlie]

As far as slump, I don't see any.
Yeah, I agree. No slumping to the side. That's why I just call it 'bump up'.

When I patch to groove diameter I cant seat my bullet as deep as you do even with my .243 long taper. It will be seated right where the ogive taper ends at the case mouth.
My ogive is well above the case mouth. So, I'm thinking you meant to say you can't seat out as far as I do...No?

When the throat starts to foul I just push in a dry bore mop and I'm good to go again for several shots.
Is that a load that has lube someplace in the stack...or does your fouling stay soft on it's own?

Happy to read your comments...

BTW - while out to feed cows, I 'deposited' two more in a snowbank.
Tomorrow, I'll see if I can 'withdraw' them...

CM

[303Guy]

while out to feed cows, I pumped two more into a snowbank.
Tomorrow, I'll see if I can find them...I love it!:D

P.S. That's one handsome cartridge!
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1707

[RMulhern]

Hey guys

If there's ANY ONE PERSON on this forum that you need to take seriously as far as PP bullets are concerned and using BP.....it's LEAD POT!! He's been doing it a while and knows what he's doing!!

[303Guy]

RMulhern, I'd say you know what you're doing too. 1000yd ten shot groups take some doing! Did I mention the ten shot groups?:mrgreen:

[Lead pot]

303

You should see him shoot when the Louisiana Skeeters and gnats aint flying up his nose!!:D

[montana_charlie]

Visited the 'bank' today, as planned.

My metal detector was considered top-of-the-line when it was built back in '78. I bought it used about ten years ago, after wanting one all my life. It's the original version of White's 6000 D.

I've never spent enough time with it to really test it's true capabilities, until today. These two bullets were so far down in the drift, I had to read the directions until I figgered out how to make it do more than just 'find my Zippo in a vegetable garden'.

Anyway, I am still happy with having reversed the direction of wrapping patches. You guys can go ahead and believe that it makes no difference, but I never got shanks this clean wrapping the other way.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/CCWII.jpg

Also seem to have got away from the 'stutter' at the leading edge, but I did nothing in the way of corrections.

CM

[Southern Son]

Charlie, I am having trouble imagining which way to wrap (benifit of being punched in the head too often). When you lay the patch on your patching board, then put the boolit on top of the patch to roll it (I am guessing you roll going away from your body), which way is the boolit pointing?

[Lead pot]

Charlie if I didn't see the ring from your case mouth I would have said that you breach seated those bullets.
now get rid of that slight crimp or maybe the case is a tat long and is getting rolled in from getting pulled and getting jammed up with the chamber end or that ring on the bullet nose from the seating stem, might have had the seating die set to close but you have that patch job down pat.
I blew the photo up to 600% and the Alloy and everything looks very good but I see something I have never seen on my bullets and that is the land when it cut the groove in the bullet is deeper at the start of the ogive. usually you will see a very light cut on the nose getting deeper as the bullet moves forward. That makes me want to look at some of the bullets I have left to see if I might have missed something.

Now shoot a group and post that.

Kurt

[Lead pot]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0223-1.jpg http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0223-5.jpg
I guess maybe the hardness of the alloy and how tight the bullet is patched makes the diff.

Kurt

[montana_charlie]

When you lay the patch on your patching board, then put the boolit on top of the patch to roll it (I am guessing you roll going away from your body), which way is the boolit pointing?
The bullet nose points to the left, and the bullet is rolled away from you.
CM

[montana_charlie]

Charlie if I didn't see the ring from your case mouth I would have said that you breach seated those bullets.
Breech seating groove diameter bullets would be a neat trick...

that ring on the bullet nose from the seating stem, might have had the seating die set to close
Bullets are finger seated in a slip-fit mouth. That ring on the nose is not what you think.

The left bullet had three punch marks on the nose, and the right one had the ring put on with the end of a small tube.
They were identification marks...in case I couldn't tell (from location) which was first and which was second. Both were marked in case one smacked something hard.

The right hand bullet was the second one through the bore, and the 'wiping' was a single stroke with two, stacked, barely damp, patches...not even wet enough to 'drip' in the chamber...speared by a brass jag.

I did not dry the chamber for the second shot (though I usually do) and that might have allowed the second case to 'stretch' into the chamber step. That may account for the crimp ring on the bullet's shank.

I see something I have never seen on my bullets and that is the land when it cut the groove in the bullet is deeper at the start of the ogive.
I think it's a function of alloy hardness.

Now shoot a group and post that.
I have four of those left. I'll see if I can toss them through something made of paper...

CM

[Lead pot]

Breech seating groove diameter bullets would be a neat trick...
CM

It's no trick if you have a breach seating tool.
This particular setup is for my .45-90 Sharps or the low wall and the bullet is a .449 unpatched swagged bullet I make patched to .456.
This tool seats a .458 diameter with ease to any depth you need with out any damage to the bullet base and then load the case with a wad seated flush with the case mouth.
The case on the tool stays with the tool it just carries the bullet till it is in the throat.

Kurt

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_1186.jpg

[montana_charlie]

It's no trick if you have a breach seating tool.
I'll pass on that setup. Operating one lever to load a fresh round is about all I can keep up with...

While I have your attention, could you run back to Post #25 and answer my question about lube?

CM

[Lead pot]

Sure,
On #25 I use a 1/8" lube wad I make from Deer Talow.

[Southern Son]

Thanks, Charlie, that was what I thought and just happens to be the way I do it.

Lead pot, that breach seating tool is a work of art.

[RMulhern]

This ensures a way to have the patch 'tightened' as it travels down the bore. I patch to bore diameter or slightly under. This method satisfies me that there is no danger of a patch becoming 'wrinkled' due to curl-back which can happen if patching to groove diameter.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/Bullets%20and%20Paper%20Patches/RollingandDrying.jpg

[montana_charlie]

This ensures a way to have the patch 'tightened' as it travels down the bore.
Your bullets are wrapped CCW. Which way does your rifling turn?
CM

[RMulhern]

Charlie

Call it what you will but by 'tightened'.....I MEAN that the outside angle of the patch is 'tightened' by being held in place by the direction of rotation! The DOR is right hand! I'm not worried about the under-lying wraps because after wet wrapping I can assure you they're tight but....I don't want the exterior angle to be folded back! Just my own little personal quirk!!:drinks:

[Woodtroll]

Charlie,

Photographic proof beats conjecture any day, and I appreciate you posting these pictures. I guess I can't shoot well enough to tell the difference, or maybe for some reason my gun and loads don't react the same way, but I honestly cannot tell the difference. I do sometimes get flyers that are wider than expected, though not very often; perhaps it may be due to intemittent wrinkling (?). Now that I've found a decent combination, I will give CCW wrapping a try and see if that eliminates the flyers. I had thought it was just me, but you never know...

I hope you did not take my input as argumentative. I was just throwing out my logic behind why I thought the patch would tighten CW, to see if it made sense to anyone else. The other part of the question, though, is what happens after the bullet has fully entered the bore, and then the gas is driving the bullet and torquing the patch; perhaps then it makes a difference?

Always so much to learn, especially if like a child you want to know, "Why?".

Thanks, y'all!
Regan

[montana_charlie]

The DOR is right hand!
A few of your bullets in the wooden block show the seam clearly enough to know which direction you are wrapping.
Since you are loading for a barrel with a right hand twist, you are following the same practice that I have been promoting in this thread.

Your method, added to my photos, reinforces my theory enough to keep me convinced...until some other quirk jumps into my fickle brain.

I hope you did not take my input as argumentative.
Well...maybe I did, and maybe I didn't.
But, you'll hav'ta work harder than that ta make me mad...
...Pilgrim.

CM

[303Guy]

Some confusion is arising in my mind.:veryconfu Not hard to achieve but .....

This is a right hand rifling direction, errr... right? OK, no question, it is a right hand twist. My Lee Enfield has a L/H twist, again no question.

I wrap in the direction shown by RMulhern - for my L/H twist Brit! See my confusion?

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/CCWII.jpgR/H twist.

I would have called the direction of wrap L/H or counter-clockwise - clockwise being R/H.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/WrapDirection.jpg

This is my L/H wrapped 25-303 for a L/H twist rifling.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-428F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-363F.jpg

I am rolling the casting in the opposite direction to what the rifling will do so that the wrap trailing edge will be in the direction the rifling drives the boolit.

What am I missing here?:confused:

[Nrut]

The boolit in the photo below is being wrapped CW, looking at from the base.. Yes?
I look down my bore from the breech end and I see that the twist is CW... OK?
So I wrap my boolit just like the one in the photo and when the boolit travels down the bore the patch "tightens" if that is possible...
Also the outside seam of the patch is the "trailing edge"..

How simple is that ?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/WrapDirection.jpg

Easy rule: Patch your boolit in the same direction as your twist "if" you think that is important to accuracy and the only way to find out if it is important is to test it..

[Nrut]

Your bullets are wrapped CCW. Which way does your rifling turn?
CM
montana_charlie
Looking from the base RMulhren is wrapping his boolit clockwise not CCW... Correct?
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/WrapDirection.jpg

[rhead]

Until you try both in your rifle with you wrapping them using your paper you will be guessing and still will not know.

M C is right in most of the cases where it makes any difference. I lack sufficient data to say a percentage but would suppose (from my own experience) that it would be well over half. I can also state that there are some exceptions.

[montana_charlie]

montana_charlie
Looking from the base RMulhren is wrapping his boolit clockwise not CCW... Correct?
Rick's bullet rolls clockwise as it moves up the patch...so the patch is wound on in a counterclockwise spiral, when viewed from the base.
After twenty bullets are patched and dried, the bullets are motionless. So, the bullets are neither CW nor CCW. They're just 'round'.

But the patches (even though motionless) still have a counterclockwise spiral...so they are CCW patches.

Since his bullet will spin clockwise when it is fired, the angled end of the patch will be trailing the rotation...not leading into it.

That statement gives me an idea.
Let's just say that when you are applying the patch, the bullet should roll along on the paper in the same direction the rifling will make it spin when fired.

That way, those among us who have grown up with digital timepieces...who have to resort to a dictionary to explain CW and CCW...can just monkey see - monkey do to get their patches on in the right direction.

That description will also result in a CW patch for the left twist rifle.

CM

[montana_charlie]

Some confusion is arising in my mind.:veryconfu Not hard to achieve but .....

This is a right hand rifling direction, errr... right? OK, no question, it is a right hand twist. My Lee Enfield has a L/H twist, again no question.

I wrap in the direction shown by RMulhern - for my L/H twist Brit! See my confusion?

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/CCWII.jpgR/H twist.

I would have called the direction of wrap L/H or counter-clockwise - clockwise being R/H.
You appear to understand CCW (LH) and CW (RH) adequately when referencing the direction of the paper wrap. If you will reverse the direction of wrapping your bullets (to accomodate a left twist barrel) your confusion will melt away like bullet lube on a hot sprueplate pivot...leaving a hard crust of solid fact.

On the other hand...
I started this thread to advertise the discovery of a cure for a problem. I thought the problem was caused by something else...and had no certain idea of what that 'something else' might be.
I reversed my wrap due to some logical thinking...not in an attempt to cure anything. The discovery was purely serendipitous.

So, keep one thing in mind, 303.
If you don't suffer from the disease...you don't really need the vaccine.

CM

[303Guy]

Thanks folks. The disease I suffer from is confusion!:mrgreen:

Even moreso now that it's been 'cleared up'.:bigsmyl2:

I do sometimes dry wrap so the possibility of unwrapping at throat entry is real (I've had it happen) so I gotta get the right (or left?) direction!:grin:

I'll work through it till I get my head clear.:coffee:

[Nrut]

Thanks folks. The disease I suffer from is confusion!:mrgreen:

Even moreso now that it's been 'cleared up'.:bigsmyl2:

I do sometimes dry wrap so the possibility of unwrapping at throat entry is real (I've had it happen) so I gotta get the right (or left?) direction!:grin:

I'll work through it till I get my head clear.:coffee:

If you want the outside seam of your patch to be the trailing edge of your boolit as it is traveling down your barrel that's all you need to know (plus twist direction).. I disagree with CM's description as to what is CW and CCW and twist direction but we are coming up with the same end result and that is what is important..:shock:

[montana_charlie]

I disagree with CM's description as to what is CW and CCW and twist direction but we are coming up with the same end result and that is what is important..:shock:
Well, if you don't want to fight it out, I'll just have to let you believe what you feel comfortable with.

I was out today chopping snow. The plan was to cut a 'bed' to set up my portable target stand so I can fire the group that Lead Pot asked for...and capture the bullets in the drift, as well.

Being in a spot where I don't usually punch tarhets, I had to establish the 100 yard distance. That means I got a chance to actually use my new rangefinder...and I really like the way it works.

Too damn cold today to mess with 'damp patches', but everything's set for the first decent day...

CM

[Woodtroll]

Well...maybe I did, and maybe I didn't.
But, you'll hav'ta work harder than that ta make me mad...
...Pilgrim.

CM

Well, at least I am glad I didn't make you mad! ;)

I hope everyone here has a great New Year! Y'all take care,
Regan

[RMulhern]

montana_charlie
Looking from the base RMulhren is wrapping his boolit clockwise not CCW... Correct?
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/WrapDirection.jpg

Nrut

Let's put it this way! When I apply a patch....the bullet..nose left side....is being rolled away from me or...in a CLOCK-WISE direction...however the patch is going on in a COUNTER-CLOCKWISE direction! My 'quirk' is....that I do this to have the trailing edge of the patch being rolled into the twist rather than away from whereby in my opinion....there is likely-hood that the trailing edge could be curled back thereby causing a kink within the patch![smilie=w::castmine::mrgreen:

[docone31]

I wrap the same way in my rollers.
With my smokeless rifles, it does not seem to matter what direction I wrap in.
I have left hand rifleing in my Smelly, I wrap for right hand, with my Mauser, I have right hand rifleing, I wrap right hand.
It is a toss up which fires the best, on what day.
Same powder charge also.

[303Guy]

...however the patch is going on in a COUNTER-CLOCKWISE direction!I had finally figured this out!:mrgreen: Yup, so I am in fact doing it correctly for my rifle for dry wrapping!:coffee:

[montana_charlie]

Charlie if I didn't see the ring from your case mouth I would have said that you breach seated those bullets.
I blew the photo up to 600% and the alloy and everything looks very good.
Now shoot a group and post that.

Kurt
Here you go, Kurt.
I only had four, and lost one in the snow.

Wind was 15 to 20 from 10 o'clock, and it was chilly...uncomfortable to shoot in. So I probably hurried a bit, but I tried to hold steady enough to make a group.
It was fired at 100 yards.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1736

This is the 1000 yd. target, scaled down for 100 yards.
The black is 4.4 inches wide.
I usually shoot with the wind coming from the opposite direction, and forgot I had all that right windage cranked on.
Would've been mad if I had fallen clear off the side of the target...

Oh, yeah! I had the target set in front of the snowbank to catch the bullets. They smacked into each other so bad, they aren't worth taking a picture...but the shanks look clean.
CM

[longbow]

303Guy:

I know why you are confused... your toilets flush in the wrong direction down there!

Yeah, I know that wasn't much help. True but not much help.

Longbow

[6.5 mike]

Montana charlie & RMulhen, i've been following this thread from the start & you have answered a question that I had. From time to time I would get flyers in my pp'ed groups that I couldn't account for with my hiwall & sharps. They were never really wild just out when it seemed the shot broke good. I'll have to try wrapping some the way your saying & see if this removes them, thanks for the info & a great post.
303 guy, driving on the wrong side of the road doesn't help either.

[Zeek]

"Better confused than refused!", I always say.
Zeek

[303Guy]

I know why you are confused... your toilets flush in the wrong direction down there!:mrgreen:

"Better confused than refused!"Then I have no worries!:veryconfu Or do I? Oh shucks - now I'll have to go ask again!:confused: :bigsmyl2:

This may mean something to someone.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-499F.jpg
I found this fragment of patch. On closer examination I saw it was wrinkled (on one side only). I can only imagine the patch twisted on the boolit at some point in the bore.

Something else; (I posted this same pic on another thread today).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-497F.jpg (Bad Pic - sorry!:oops:)
The patch overlap bond was stronger than the paper itself! With wet wrapping it would make no difference which direction I wrap.

[montana_charlie]

I can't say anything about the top picture...can't even really tell what I am looking at.

But, Shoo Fly, 303Guy...!
That second picture is a sight!
If I'm not mistaken, the entire original patch is laying there.

No slicing by the lands...no dirt, scorch, or wrinkling.
It didn't come off as confetti...it came of as an entire page from the paper patch book.
Looks like you used compressed air to shoot it through a smoothbore.

It almost makes me wonder if the bullet squirted out the front...and the patch came blowing out after the bullet was gone.

CM

[303Guy]

Oh, no no! The second patch was a bad one I pulled off the boolit.:mrgreen:
I striggled a bit to get the corner to lift so I could unwrap it and lo, it tore around the circumferance of the boolit and the two halves stayed 'glued' together! That's the part that intrigued me, that the bond between the two wraps can be so strong!

As for the top pic, well I could try to zoom in further. It is a composite pic showing the two sides of the same fragment. The side against the bore is smooth as would be expected but the inside shows little coorigations from the patch slipping under torque against the boolit. The fragment is likely two layers of patch.

[303Guy]

Here is closer look at the inside of that fragment.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-501F-1.jpg

[montana_charlie]

Still can't make any statement about it.
Do the wrinkles run parallel to the bullet, or across it?
CM

[303Guy]

Parallel. They are very confusing because initially, they were not visible on the bore side of the fragment and now they are! I am beginning to think these wrinkles or corrogations form after the boolit leaves the barrel! (I gotta do away with dry fine sand as a catch medium - damages the nose end of the boolit!)

[Joe C]

Charlie .

Very interesting thread .

Looks like the bullets i sent you might be wrapped backwards..............:o:o

I was thinking that instead of re - wrapping them in the other direction , you could just

1 - Seat them in the case backwards.......... (that would look kind of silly ) :-):-)

or

2 Just go down to where you set up your target and shoot back toward the bench .........:grin::grin::grin: :groner::groner:




Yeah , Yeah , i know , lot of help i am .........:smile:

Joe

[montana_charlie]

Charlie .

Very interesting thread .

Looks like the bullets i sent you might be wrapped backwards..............:o:o

Not a problem, Joe.

One of my main 'curiosities' is how your bullet diameter might fit my cases when wrapped with my paper. So.....I have to unroll some of yours, anyway (if I can find the seam).

However, I fired five of yours yesterday, and two were sent off into a 'one shot groups' so they can be recovered without damage. We'll see if my 'clockwise problem' was actually caused by a difference in wrapping technique.
Who knows? Yours may come out with clean shanks...just like my ccw's have been.

I'll try to dig them out tomorrow. If I was patient enough to wait a few days, they would probably melt out. The snow is disappearing pretty fast, right now.

CM

[montana_charlie]

Hey Joe,
I had some trouble with my metal detector, but it worked well after replacing the batteries (the durned old thing holds fourteen double A's).

I fired fifteen bullets, and found eleven. Five of those were your 'fatter' (.454") Money's.

The first thing I noticed, on all of the bullets, was that the surface covered by paper was 'blotchy' looking. The grainy paper impression was there, but the coloration was not 'silvery' like my two most recent posted pictures.
I put this down to the fact that they were all wet patched.
I guess some oxidation occurs under the paper while it is drying...especially if it has heat helping to speed up the process.

Your patches were put on clockwise, but there was no shank damage. I'm thinking this is due to the diameter of your bullets being bigger than mine. My theory is that yours require much less 'bump-up' to get the patch tightly trapped between the lead and steel, so the patch never has time to start to unwind as the bullet pushes into the leade.

That could also explain why many shooters see no importance in wrap direction. Their bullet/case neck/chamber/(whatever) fit is so tight the patch has no room to 'wrinkle up'.
This modifies my general thinking on wrap direction, but doesn't change my belief that it is important for my particular bullet/paper/rifle combination.

If I changed to .454" (or .455") bullets, wrap direction may disappear as something for me to worry about.

For your own shooting, Joe, you may want to move your patch .070" forward on the bullet.
There is evidence that the nose bumps enough to get engraving that far ahead of your current patch edge.
If you want an illustration of what I mean, look at Post #1 of this thread. The 'damaged' bullet I fired last spring shows similar engraving ahead of the patch...although yours is much less than that one shows.
You can't know this is happening unless you can look at gently caught fired bullets.

Your current base fold completely covers the bullet base. You can move the patch forward .070" and leave a small circular opening...which is commonly seen...with no need to change the dimensions of the patch when you cut it.

Thanks for the sample bullets, Joe.
I have three experiments I want to run, and you sent enough for all of them.

CM