Lead Hardness for Auto's

[greg1]

What is the minimum hardness for lead when casting for the .45 ACP and the 9mm? I have read that a BRN of 22 is required due to the beating the round takes going from the magazine to the chamber. I load only for plinking and velocity is kept low. I use Lee TL molds.

[lwknight]

Sounds like bunk to me. Fire your gun, then remove the next chambered round to see if it looks beaten up.

[Springfield]

I shoot my 45 with bullets cast from my soft(brinell 10) alloy intended for BP and they work fine.

[David2011]

Agreed. Hard lead is not required and will not obturate at .45ACP pressures. My alloy is only a very little harder than straight WW and doesn't deform on chambering. It works fine in
9mm as well.

The "Glen E Fryxell Fans" thread will lead you to some really good info on the subject.

David

[sagacious]

Lead bullet manufacturers/dealers often claim that very hard bullets are the only way to go. In order for bulk lead bullets to be shipped or transported, they need to be hard enough to not be 'beat up' by the time they reach their destination..... but that has nothing at all to do with what works best in your gun.

I often cast my 45ACP bullets from salvaged range lead, or 50/50 range lead and ww's. It's not very hard, but it works very well, is extremely accurate, and leaves zero leading. Harder is not always better for the lower-pressure calibers, and very often, harder is much worse. Most people have to learn this through trial-and-error, since the advertising of the bullet manufacturers is so strident and widespread.

Straight clip-on ww lead work well for me in the 9mm. You'll do yourself a service if you start out with softer bullets and see how they work for you-- in your guns. The arbitrary assumption that you always need very hard lead, especially in the case of auto calibers, is simply not correct.

Hope this helps, good luck. :drinks:

[greg1]

I appreciate all the information. I am new to casting and looking for all the advice I can get.

[Bob Krack]

Greg,

The .45 ACP at 800 to 1000 fps should be very happy with a properly sized, properly lubed boolit with 8 to 10 BHN alloy.

At least it works for me.....

Bob

[Edubya]

And, belive it or not, you'll find that casting/loading for the .45 much easier than the 9mm! The pressure is concentrated to a very small area behind the .356 boolit. But start at the lowest velocity on both calibers and work up. Size to .001 or .002 larger than the barrel and expect good results.
It will try your patience, but keepgoing and the rewards are many.
EW

[Lloyd Smale]

ill fly against the wind here. It depends on what your looking for. I can get decent accruacy with ww but if im really wringing out a 1911 for its best accuracy i will just about allways find its sweat spot using lead thats 18 bhn or harder. I think its partialy to do with the feed ramp but a good gun with a well polished feed ramp will take care of alot of this. I mainly think the reason hard shoots better is the shallow rifling used in the 1911. We once did a test with 6 1911s and 4 smith 25s (45acp) and hands down the harder bullets shot better at about every pressure level. this test was done with lyman round nose and swcs and with h&g swcs using bullseye and 231. Alloys used were 5050 ww/pure, ww, 5050 ww/lino, and linotype. the 5050 ww/lyno and the straight linotype allways gave the best accuracy. Sometimes one would win over the other but it was allways close.

[Bob Krack]

Yep Lloyd,

You're right there. I stand by my post for my uses and certainly do in reply to greg1.

Several here are capable of much more than most and I'm a thinkin you are one of them, I just don't think greg1 is at the skill and experience level to go as deep (today) as you can.

Here's hoping to get him - and many others - to the advanced stages.... Or like me, to the stage where it is just lot's and lot's of fun!

Bob

[chris in va]

I have an issue with my 9mm keyholing at 50+ yards, and I suspect water dropping might be the culprit. Haven't had a chance to test them yet but I towel dropped some and hope they are a lot more accurate. The last target looked like I hit it with buckshot at 25 yards, hardly what I call a 'group', especially as my CZ 75 and HiPoint carbine are quite accurate with FMJ.

[Bullshop Junior]

I have an issue with my 9mm keyholing at 50+ yards, and I suspect water dropping might be the culprit. Haven't had a chance to test them yet but I towel dropped some and hope they are a lot more accurate. The last target looked like I hit it with buckshot at 25 yards, hardly what I call a 'group', especially as my CZ 75 and HiPoint carbine are quite accurate with FMJ.
What kind of gun do you have, and what are you sizing at?

[Winger Ed.]

I've got a Colt Gold Cup I saved & sacrificed for, and finally bought new, in the mid- 80's.
The slide rails have been 'slicked' a little, the trigger is 'right',and the barrel was fired lapped/polished-
by firing 10 soft/pure Lead rounds, coated with diamond dust rubbing compound,
and pushed with 3 gr. Unique, 20-odd years ago.. but that's all that's been done to it.

I've probably shot 50,000, or more rounds through it ----
all cast, and all pushed by 6gr. of Unique.
Not one single one has ever been checked with a hardness meter.

As to the pistol itself:
(It does get a new 11-12lb. main spring every few years)
"Some" bullets are from a 200 gr. Lee mold,
but "most", are from that 'squatty looking' 195gr., semi-wadcutter, RCBS mold.
The alloy is "whatever I have",,,
adjusted with 95/5 solder, or more wheel weights,
until it works fast and well in the casting process.

I lube them with whatever was in the sizer from the last time I used it- until it ran out.
Then if I had a few thousand .45s left to do:
I usually poured in my (melted) mix of old crayons & candles, contaminated axle grease,
and enough motor oil to thin it til it was 'just right'.

After firing 3-4-600 rounds one day, I clean it,
and punch the bore with a nylon brush dipped in Hoppes #9- that I buy by the quart.
Before it gets stored in the safe until next time:
I blow it off with a air hose, run a dry patch through the bore--
I'll look in there,,,,,,, and after doing that all these years- its fine. No Leading.
Then it gets 'mopped down' with motor oil, 'hosed' inside with WD-40, and put in the safe until 'next time'.

Accuracy wise:
If ya really sit down and concentrate on what you're doing-
the thing will always shoot as many as 50-60 rounds into one ragged 2" hole at 75 feet..

Sure, they're slow, and don't 'stress' the weapon.
But: Its practice/target ammo.
I've clocked this stuff at 7-something to about 800 fps on my Oehler 33.
(No, I didn't get it free because Kenneth Oehler is my cousin.
The new wife got it for me as a Christmas present a few years ago.
In all her (unknowing/independant) research- she thought it was the best, and just wanted me to have one).

Last thing:
When people tell me, "For a .45, this ammo doesn't kick much, does it"?
I just say, "No, but how hard do you really need to hit that sheet of paper to tell if you're 'any good', or not"?


One of these days:
I think I'll change my 'signature' to-
"Don't complicate things, or make extra work for yourself.
There are plenty of folks in your life who are more than willing to do that for ya".


.

.

[DLCTEX]

For my1911 45 ACP I have just used straight WW for years, air cooled until a couple years ago I tried water dropped. Both worked well, with no leading. More recently I have cast with 50/50 WW/pure and still no leading. I lube all with 50/50 alox, but have tumbled with LLA with good results. The boolits have ranged from 185-200-255 gr. SWC 230 RN, and 230 RF. Oh, and 451 round ball. As for damaging the boolits during cycling, none was observed and accuracy to 25 yds. has been excellent with everything but the 185 SWC, never got it to shoot for beans. If you are concerned with deformation, simply water drop WW from a hot mould and size same day to .452.

[helg]

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

In the intervening years, extensive experimentation has revealed the empirical correlation of 3 x 480 x Brinell Hardness Number (BHN) (or more simply, 1440 x BHN) as an estimate of the minimum peak pressure required for bullet obturation (the reason for the "3 x 480" format is the number "4 x 480" also has significance, and this format makes it easier to remember both formulae)
... commercial cast bullets are usually cast to a BHN of 24 as a means of damage control, not because hardness makes for a better projectile.


Ok, we have the formula, and need chamber pressure for the rounds. Here is it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP - Maximum pressure 21,000 psi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum - Maximum pressure 34,084 psi

Loading to max pressure needs the following BHNs
45ACP 10.9-14.6
9mm 17.7-23.7

Assuming the load is not edge hot, say 70% of the max pressure (this reduces muzzle speed only by about 10% of the max), acceptable BHN intervals are

45ACP 7.6-10.2
9mm 12.4-16.6

Per my experience the above numbers look adequate.