smokeless in an encore

[charger 1]

Now before I get the "pipe bomb "speech, let me say there are a he11 of a lot of people with into the 1000's of shots fired with smokeless. Rather than the neh sayers who've never picked up an encore I'd like to hear from those who have. Thompson admits the same steel goes into every single barrel,muzzle or cartridge

[Potsy]

I've always maintained that pressure is pressure regardless of propellant used. Just bear in mind that unless you've bought a lot more equipment than I have, you may have no idea what that pressure is.
If I get the urge to shoot smokeless in a muzzleloader, I'll buy a Savage, just because it says it can. Buddy of mine's got one, it took a little fiddling to find a sabot that could stand what that gun can do, but it does shoot flat and put holes close together now.
I don't doubt that you could get by with shooting smokeless in an Encore (at least up to a point); it would just kinda give me the willies to actually do it.
If you do do it, remember, even with an upper end charge of 777 or whatever, that rifle is made to sling 250-300 grn. saboted bullets around 2000fps. I would not want to exceed that performance with smokeless. The Savage will offer another 400 fps.

[lastmanout]

I have beeen tempted many times to try a low end pistol load - 12-18000 CUP as used in 45 Colt for a clean plinking load in my CVA Electra, (supposed high tensile steel). The chance of double charges, 100 grains of IMR power, etc. by backyard experiment (from guys like us) would be deadly , so I can understand why manufactures would never recommend it. The Lead alloy steels common to normal replica BP arms is NOT up to the stress of modern Nitro based powders, so they are out. I did hear once that Ruger shot smokeless to proof their Old Army cap and ball, but Ruger cylinder is heat treated, high tensile alloy steel, of excellent quality. I value my eyes and fingers too much to try it .

[Willbird]

I'm sure about everybody has thought about it. The problem to me is the complete lack of any data. If I were to do it I think I would invest in a strain gauge setup and see exactly what is going on inside there. I think fairly conservative loads should be fairly easy to develop....but going beyond that is where your on thin ice.

Consistent ignition could be a problem, this could give erratic pressures.

Blackhorn 209 data indicates around 30,000 psi of pressure.

Bill

[Dragon 31]

OK, I'll give you my real world experience. A number of years ago when the Encore Muzzle loader first came on the market I bought one, used it with the various black powder substitues and absolutely hated the clean up. Blow back in my gun was terrible and clean up required taking the entire frame apart. So being a well educated smart guy I said "pressure is pressure lets use smokeless powder. No clean up" I started low and of course soon added more powder. In one nano second my life got real exciting. If you have ever had case seperation in a bolt gun you should experience a 209 primer blowing apart in an encore.
I now shoot a custom Encore barrel made by SMI that is made to shoot smokeless and a Savage. ML II. There is a lot of information on smokeless muzzle loading on the net and I know a lot more about it now than all those years ago and I would never recommend that anyone shoot smokeless in a gun not build for that purpose. By the way I would never go back to shooting black powder substitute again.

[StarMetal]

I've read where the steel used in the Savage smokeless muzzle loader is proofed very very high. Can't remember the exact figures but looking at 150K to 200K.

Stands to reason that if you can use safe smokeless loads in BP cartridge guns that there is a load somewhere for use in your smoke pole.

Joe

[Willbird]

I've read where the steel used in the Savage smokeless muzzle loader is proofed very very high. Can't remember the exact figures but looking at 150K to 200K.

Stands to reason that if you can use safe smokeless loads in BP cartridge guns that there is a load somewhere for use in your smoke pole.

Joe

Well the whole nature of the ML system leaves lots of openings for problems.

Poor bullet pull to get proper ignition..
Lots of potential users who have no respect for the horsepower of smokeless powders..


I'm sure a lot of us have read PO Ackley's destruction tests of a lot of guns, and there were others too like the guys who wrote books on bolt actions.....modern barrels in the breech area might take 150,000 to 200,000 psi. In some of those tests actions like the arisaka took a full load of any powder they could get in the cartridge.

Bill

[charger 1]

How many calibers does thompson make that have the encore design. The cost of stopping and intentionally picking a weaker material for one bore is a lot higher than just making them all the same. Spoke from the mouth of a setup man in a production shop. Why wont they rate it thusly? Cause for BP they leave out that final proof step. That being said are we going to approach proof and how many guns grenade at proof? My guess is not to dammed many

[BABore]

Since Savage has a smokless design on the market, do you really think T/C would leave that meat on the table if the Encore was capable of smokeless loads. I think not. There is no free lunch. Pyrodex, 777, and Blackhorn 209 all shoot at high end 45-70 velocities. If you want more speed, go to the 45 caliber bbl and shoot 40 cal sabots at 2,600 fps. Want more, spend the big bucks and gat one of them $1,200 muzzleloader's that shoot 150-200 grains of Pyro. Otherwise, get a 30'06. I've had no problem with my Encore 209x50 and Pyro or BH209 out to 300 yards. Just have to learn the curve.

[Willbird]

The savage has it's problems too. SEALING has always been a problem when a cartridge cases is not used, and in that a muzzle loader is not so different than trying to make a gun to fire caseless ammunition.

The encore breech plug as I recall uses piston rings like the ones used on an ar-15 bolt head ?? Expecting that to work at 30,000 PSI and expecting it to work at drastically more pressure are two different things.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=193806&utm_source=bizrate&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=254674

With the "turn 90 degrees and remove" feature it only has 1/2 of it's threads left too :-).

Then figure that with the new BH209 powder we can get 2000 fps from a 300 grain bullet/sabot............

Bill

[charger 1]

Since Savage has a smokless design on the market, do you really think T/C would leave that meat on the table if the Encore was capable of smokeless loads. I think not. There is no free lunch. Pyrodex, 777, and Blackhorn 209 all shoot at high end 45-70 velocities. If you want more speed, go to the 45 caliber bbl and shoot 40 cal sabots at 2,600 fps. Want more, spend the big bucks and gat one of them $1,200 muzzleloader's that shoot 150-200 grains of Pyro. Otherwise, get a 30'06. I've had no problem with my Encore 209x50 and Pyro or BH209 out to 300 yards. Just have to learn the curve.


Slow down BA
In this thread BP shall be the acro for black powder, not blood pressure
Got a savage.Had it for years. Ya their a great smokeless gun. But if you dont drag it in and sit their akward as he11. I dont mean weight. Weight dont bug me, but their like carrying one of thos big plastic kids bats full of cement. I mean we're talkin klunky. Oh and they all blow up. Well thats what Toby Bridges says, must be true

[45r]

I think Babore is right and T/C would go after the smokeless crowd if they could.My encore will put 3 shots into an inch at 100 yards using 110 grains T7 and 300 grain SST's if I clean after every shot.I clean the plug out real well after shooting also cause T7 will leave crud that needs to be removed.I use a couple drill bits by hand to keep from removing any metal but it is easy after coming out of hot water.That is all that needs to be done along with the barrel.The encore is so easy to clean and so accurate I haven't seen a need for a Savage yet but they are interesting and wouldn't mind having one but they seem way more expensive compared to what they charge for a bolt gun so I'll wait.The BP subs are too expensive and I hope B 209 comes down.T7 is good but B 209 sounds like it might be better.

[BABore]

Slow down BA
In this thread BP shall be the acro for black powder, not blood pressure
Got a savage.Had it for years. Ya their a great smokeless gun. But if you dont drag it in and sit their akward as he11. I dont mean weight. Weight dont bug me, but their like carrying one of thos big plastic kids bats full of cement. I mean we're talkin klunky. Oh and they all blow up. Well thats what Toby Bridges says, must be true

No BP problems here, but common sense is learned, not issued at birth.:Fire::mrgreen:

[StarMetal]

No BP problems here, but common sense is learned, not issued at birth.:Fire::mrgreen:

Bruce,

When they set the first atomic test bombs off they had no idea what was going to happen. They were even told a chain reaction would occur and the world would be destroyed. They took their precautions and did the test....the rest was history. Most, not all, people know you're not suppose to shoot smokeless in BP firearms. If nobody ever took a chance in life the human race wouldn't be here today. Another example? The world is flat. If you sail past the horizon you fall off the edge.

Joe

[Dragon 31]

I've been shooting smokeless for long time. My Savage is a great gun and had over 1000 rounds down range. Many of those rounds exceeded the power level of 458 winchester and the .375 HH. All safely done.
The Encore is an excellant frame for a smokeless barrel. It is lighter and more compact than the Savage. In a .45 or .50 caliber it will shoot flat past the 200 yard range using MPBR. The barrels that I use come from Smokeless Muzzle Loading Inc here in Indiana. You can Google them and learn a lot or go to Doug's web site and really enlighten your self with real scientific data not speculation that I see in this thread.

[405]

All this has evolved to a pretty advanced state, beginning in the late 1800s! Called smokeless, high powered cartridge guns. Is all this to improve the survival of or advancement of humankind or is it more to take advantage during primitive weapons hunting seasons?

[10 ga]

I love my hammer guns and "The Holy Black". However to make 200 to 300 yard shots consistently and not have to use a 15+ lb gun I also have a Savage ML II. OK the gun, scope and sling weigh 12#. Custon Encore ML barrels capeable of shooting "smokeless" are available and are reasonably priced. SMI is just one of many sources. If you want to really reach out and touch with a ML just check out "Bad Bull Muzzleloaders". Be wary of using smokeless in standard ML barrels. Smokeless powder is much harder to ignite than BP and subs and building pressure and heat is very critical to smokeless ignition. Shotgun primers are much weaker than rifle primers and that is the source of many of the problems as blown primers are very serious. The other problem is failure to ignite the smokeless powder even with shotgun primers. Unless you are into serious custom guns just get something designed for the job. 10 ga

[Willbird]

Well direct from the smokeless muzzle loader webpage

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/loadingchart.html

FEDERAL 209A PRIMER
SMI BLACK SABOT
300 GRAIN BARNES XS BULLET .458
POWDER XMR 2015
67 GRAIN = 2300 FEET PER SECOND
MUZZLE ENERGY 3550 FOOT POUNDS

That is the highest energy load they offer data for, and it uses a 209 primer. Also worthy of interest is that the smokeless system ONLY works with sabots.


THE SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING SYSTEM IS DESIGNED TO USE LOADS WITH SABOTS ONLY!
LOADS WITHOUT SABOTS MAY BE USED ONLY IF YOU USE BLACK POWDER OR ITS EQUIVALENT

he does not say on the webage but the savage system most users say the vent liner needs changed every 30 rounds........

all things considered there is some wisdom in what one gun writer said about the BH209 powder making the whole smokeless bit a lot less of an attraction.

A lot of the interest in high performance ML in general is driven by the fact that it is the closest thing to a high powered rifle some of us can hunt with where we live.

Bill

[Dragon 31]

Actually Willbird a number of people are shooting without a sabot. Try this site and look at what they are doing. http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless It takes a lot of reading because there is a ton of information to absorb, expecially when you consider they are shooting not only .50 cal but also .40 and .45 cal with replacement PacNor barrels. I've been told, that Ron Name of SMI does not recommend shooting SMI barrels sabotless.. There is really no need to as most peoples tolerance for recoil kicks in before sabots give it up.
My experience has been that the breech plug, its construction, vent holes and primers are the primary weekness in shooting smokeless Muzzle loaders not the barrel steel. Think USA made not imported firearms. Also I think there is a patient involved that may prohibit TC from over coming these problems. Of course there is always resistance to change.
Yes, vent liner can wear fast if you are shooting a lot of really hot loads or small grained powder that gets into the vent liner. If my memory is correct the vent liners cost a little over a $1.00 to replace.

[Underclocked]

I've owned Encores and own several other inlines. My advice to anyone contemplating smokeless in a muzzleloader not specifically rated for same, is don't do it. If you want to walk on the wild side, make sure your life and health insurance are paid up.

http://picasaweb.google.com/tfprocter/GunDamage?authkey=Gv1sRgCLGz3rj1-N6LvQE&feat=email#

That's a Savage.

[45r]

The BH209 is a lot safer but some people won't use it because they say it doesn't ignite sometimes and has cost them a big buck or bull elk in the field.I want to try it but am waiting for all the kinks to get worked out first.That guys hand sure looks bad.I don't think I'm in any hurry to buy a smokeless muzzleloader after seeing that.

[charger 1]

I've owned Encores and own several other inlines. My advice to anyone contemplating smokeless in a muzzleloader not specifically rated for same, is don't do it. If you want to walk on the wild side, make sure your life and health insurance are paid up.

http://picasaweb.google.com/tfprocter/GunDamage?authkey=Gv1sRgCLGz3rj1-N6LvQE&feat=email#

That's a Savage.

Thats another of Toby bridges found blown savages. Throughout the world in 6 years he's been able to find aprox 6. Thats not bad really when you consider he's made it his world wide mission. I can count almost that many cartridge guns that have went fowl in those years without going worldwide. Do we scrap them too?

[Willbird]

Actually Willbird a number of people are shooting without a sabot. Try this site and look at what they are doing. http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless It takes a lot of reading because there is a ton of information to absorb, expecially when you consider they are shooting not only .50 cal but also .40 and .45 cal with replacement PacNor barrels. I've been told, that Ron Name of SMI does not recommend shooting SMI barrels sabotless.. There is really no need to as most peoples tolerance for recoil kicks in before sabots give it up.
My experience has been that the breech plug, its construction, vent holes and primers are the primary weekness in shooting smokeless Muzzle loaders not the barrel steel. Think USA made not imported firearms. Also I think there is a patient involved that may prohibit TC from over coming these problems. Of course there is always resistance to change.
Yes, vent liner can wear fast if you are shooting a lot of really hot loads or small grained powder that gets into the vent liner. If my memory is correct the vent liners cost a little over a $1.00 to replace.

The biggest issue with sabots to me is COST, and that is not directly related to HUNTING, but rather with the practice shooting that I would like to do with the rifle I hunt with, just the sabots alone coast more than Sierra BULLETS did when I started reloading :-).

$10 per hundred for the sabots...

Then factor in the poor BC of the bullets (saboted or otherwise) and the 2600-3000 ft lbs at the muzzle dies off to 1500 by the time we get to 150 yards.

I'm willing to explore the lead tin alloy conical bullet story a bit myself and see where it goes...

Actually I have always thought along the lines of a naked bullet .375 ML of some kind, and either MV has to come up to 2400-2500 fps or so, or the BC of the bullet must be a but higher but I think one or the other, or some of both is not out of reach....and that would allow putting just as much energy on target at say 150 yards...with less recoil.

The deal with the savage IMHO is they should not have built in that gas chamber in there like he shows.....the less "cylinder area" or whatever the gas has to work on the better..................but those guys shooting those rifles are purely nuts some of them.....they just pour powder in, including duplex loads having NO idea what pressures they are dealing with....they just take it as a given that the gun will contain whatever charge they can drive in there with a ramrod.

If I were to go on a hunt for huge trophy animals and was afraid BH209 would not ignite (I'd love to know what primer they were using) I would just use a tiny pinch of ffg right against the breech plug.

Bill

[Potsy]

Willbird,
My friend who shoots the Savage shoots a plastic tipped, .35 caliber, swaged lead boatail that weights somewhere around 180 grains. It fits in a double sabot. They are not cheap, and I don't know what exact BC is, but the shape looks a lot better than anything else I've seen. They will trash deer innards out to 150 yards. We do know that.
I THINK he gets these from PRB.
I'm with you though, most saboted bullets look like a giant boob with a "ballistic tip" stuck on the end of it. Just cause the tip is pointy, don't mean it's aerodynamic.

[45r]

The misfires I've read about are on the Cabela's reveiw section of BH209,most were quite happy but some were not at all happy.I would use CCIM 209's if I try it out.I'd hate to lose or wound anything when the T7 I've been using works OK in my Encore.Most of the BH209 reveiws shows it to be quite good when it doesn't misfire and it would be great not to have to spitpatch between shots.I like the Encore a lot because it isn't too heavy or too long.I got a buck with it at 20 yards last week and I was glad I had a light short gun in my treestand with me.I had to hold it in the ready while 4 deer went pass me down wind before he came out thinking the coast was clear.It was hard to keep still while the big doe keep looking my way because she was down wind and knew something wasn't right.A heavy gun would have been hard to hold up that long.

[Underclocked]

charger, just don't hurt yourself or a bystander. Lots of folks are experimenting with smokeless in lots of different guns not made for it. I just won't be one of them.

But that's just me.

[John Taylor]

I thought I would throw a few thoughts out here. My experience in building muzzle loaders dates back before inlines or I should say I was building rifles that used 209 primers way before the inlines hit the market. I was converting H&R shotguns to muzzle loaders. The breach plug was designed so the primer was crimped in when the action was closed making for a good seal. Also used an ejector to get rid of the spent primer. These rifle had barrels made from 12L14 steel which was standard for most muzzle loader. While these rifle were strong enough to take 200+ grains of BP I never thought of using smokeless in them.
The draw back from using smokeless is that the powder does not burn right till it reaches its intended pressure. A cartridge rifle builds up a lot of pressure swagging the bullet into the bore. This pressure allows the powder to burn at the intended rate. A slow burning powder without the proper pressure can have pressure spikes at the most inopportune time. A muzzle loader does not build the pressure the same way a cartridge rifle does. Consider that BP burns at about the same rate whether it is in the barrel or out.
There was a small rifle made about 30 years back that would use ether BP or smokeless. It was a little 22 that used a 25 cal. round ball and swagged it down when firing. If memory serves, it use 2 grains of bulls-eye. I would think if you are planning on using smokeless in a muzzle loader then it should be a fast burning powder designed for shotguns or light loads in pistols. A tight fit of the projectile would be a must, patched round ball maybe. If you check the books you will find that 15 grains of Unique will equal velocity of 60 grain of BP in a 50 cal with a 500 grain bullet. I am not recommending that anyone should try this.
I have seen more than a few blown up muzzle loaders over the years. Most caused by the bullet moving away from the powder charge or not being rammed all the way down to start with. Most times it just rings the barrel but there are times when the barrel will let go like the pictures in another post.

[Willbird]

The scheutzen rifle shooters used smokeless when it came out, at times with a muzzle loaded bullet (with false muzzle) and a breech seated catridge case filled with powder, they often used duplex loads with a kicker of black due to the primers back then that were made for BP.

They were often probably using so called "bulk" powders....that were intended to be bulk loaded like BP. Honestly 777, pyrodex, and BH209 are nothing NEW...they are merely a rebirth of the smokeless "bulk" powders that were made when smokeless first came out.

Bill

[45r]

The new fad seems to be getting a 45 cal ML and using the blue sabots with smokeless but Savage thinks the 45 isn't worth bringing out.Pac-nor barreled 45's seem to give the best accuracy at long range.I wouldn't mind having a light weight 45 ML if it could give the tack driving accuracy and range some claim to be getting.There sure is a lot going on in ML's and I've been reading some interesting stuff.If I was to get a smokeless barrel for an Encore it would be a 45 cal.

[charger 1]

The BH209 is a lot safer but some people won't use it because they say it doesn't ignite sometimes and has cost them a big buck or bull elk in the field.I want to try it but am waiting for all the kinks to get worked out first.That guys hand sure looks bad.I don't think I'm in any hurry to buy a smokeless muzzleloader after seeing that.

Some folk get carried away with how nice and smooth a bullet/sabot combo loads. Dont get me wrong,I dont want to fight crud, that being said I like a nice tight combo. It can be said of all powders (not only bh209) that if you got a loose combo that hefty 209 blast will bump it forward where it will then sit and fizzle. Thats why PRESICIONRIFLE up here has made so much money changing out 209 breech plugs for ones that take a small rifle primer. Not only has that got a lot of guns to quit misfiring, its also tightened up accuracy on most guns. I got some bh209 comming (I think) and I figure if my loads tight enough to stay put till the full fury of the 209 hits, she'll lite up. Going to get 3 full cans through her before she gets pointed at game anyhoo

[Willbird]

I think the BH209 situation might evolve a bit. If you think about it the breech plugs out there now in most inlines are designed for 777 to avoid the "crud ring".....they work fine with BP pr pyrodex which is not nearly as picky. But the shape that best avoids the crud ring with 777 may not be the best for BH209 ignition.

I have fired nearly 50 shots so far in my Omega with BH209, and a dozen or more that were left in the gun overnight in a fouled bore and never a hint of a hangfire...all of them were fired with WW 209 primers...which as I recall are not the hottest out there.

Also somebody said on another thread that the BH209 is not as likely to bump forward from primer energy, my guess is the powder charge has more free space....a charge of 777 is almost a solid mass any time I have pulled the breech plug with a charge in the bbl.


One OTHER factor in favor of smokeless powder ir RECOIL....the weight of the powder charge actually counts as bullet weight when calculating recoil...because powder IS ejecta, just like the bullet.....so 15 grains of powder making energy equal to 84 grains of powder would result in less recoil.

My guess is that the smokeless muzzle loader using conventional reloading powders will continue to be a niche market...just because they are a bit finicky...and because unlike say 4831 powder in a 30-06 it is FAR easier to be able to seat an overload in the ML than in a cartridge gun.

Bill

[45r]

I like my Encore but I've been reading about the Savage and other custom smokeless ML's on Dougs and they all say they won't go back to BP subs.I wish somebody would bring one out in 45 cal.I'd like to try the 45 cal sabot loads and smokeless to see if they are accurate way out there.I would be very carefull with smokeless in a ML but one should be be very carefull with any handloading in any firearm.I guess it is a niche market so far but I wonder if that is because most people don't know how well those ML's can perform yet.2600 fps with a 200 sst in an accurate ML could take a deer a lot further out than my Encore with it's favorite load.Some say they're getting MOA out to 300 yards and that is very good performance from a ML.

[Willbird]

I have yet to hear of anybody getting 3/4 moa accuracy with a 2600 fps load :-).

The 200 grain SST does have a .265 BC however...............

Running the ballistics for 2600 fps it looks like that bullet/velocity would add about 50-75 yards effective range over a Barnes spitfire tmz 290 grain at 2000fps MV.


Bill

[Dragon 31]

Willbird
A number of loads with 200 sst reach 2600 ft per sec from a .45 cal barrel.
These loads as well as many more are listed at http://h1.ripway.com/dougsboard/pdfs/45.pdf.
I'm sure if you adjust the loads that sooner or later you can find one the shoots MOA or less in many PacNor barrels. DO NOT TRY THESE IN A REGULAR ENCORE BARREL.

[45r]

The higher BC. and reduced recoil of the 45 smokeless loads are some of the things that are interesting to me.When the MK85 came out it changed the way people used ML's.Now I hear they are out of the ML business.I wonder if it is because long range performance and the cleaner burning smokeless powder is beginning to be the future of modern ML's.I wonder if a 200 grain boolit from a 40 cal mold say something like BRP's 300 45 boolit could go 2600 fps and shoot 3 or 4 inch groups at 300 yards.If you could get 2600 fps out of a 300 grain boolit it would probably kick very hard and a 200 grain boolit would be better in recoil and more retained velocity at long range.The 50 cal is the most popular now but some that are wanting the most range from there ML are going to the 45 and it wouldn't surprise me to see the 45 become THE modern long range ML.I bet Babore could make a sleek 40 cal boolit made for the blue sabots that could shoot very close to MOA at 300 yards in a custom ML.There aren't any good molds so far for the 40.I like my 50 but the 45 is got my attention for some reason.I guess I'm getting the Modern ML bug.I wish Savage would make a 45 ML.I get one mainly to get the performance without the heavier recoil.

[Willbird]

Willbird
A number of loads with 200 sst reach 2600 ft per sec from a .45 cal barrel.
These loads as well as many more are listed at http://h1.ripway.com/dougsboard/pdfs/45.pdf.
I'm sure if you adjust the loads that sooner or later you can find one the shoots MOA or less in many PacNor barrels. DO NOT TRY THESE IN A REGULAR ENCORE BARREL.


Well the really high velocity results those guys get often say such as "well only about 1/2 the sabots make it all the way out the barrel with this load", "accuracy is nothing to write home about with this load" etc etc.

I want to build a .375, if going smaller to 45 from 50 is the answer, well then going even smaller to .375 may be even better :-).

[Dragon 31]

Willbird
I don't think the smokeless will ever totally replace Black powder, but I do know that my Gonic Arms 15 in. barrel .45, my TC Hawkins .45, my Ruger OLd Army and my Encore .50 sit in the safe. While I hunt with my Savage and my SMI Encores.
I should confess that I hunt with all female hunting partners (spouse and grand daughters). The deal that I made is "I don't cook, wash dishes or make beds. You don't clean firearms". On the night that they all three shot deer and I had to pull the deer out, find the check station and hang the deer till I could get in from work the next day to butcher it, that was the night that I went smokeless, because by the week end when I got around to cleaning guns rust was already forming from the snow in the barrels. Not only that the look of disappointment in my grand daughter's face when the Hawkin misfired was not something I want to experience again.
We Hoosiers can not legally hunt with a .375 bore, bullet yes, bore no.
Since this is a cast bullet web site I would be interested in what others think about a bullet that fits a .45 or .50 caliber barrels, has a gas check, huge lube holding capicity. driving bands small enough that we can use wheel weights and still push the thing down the barrel and has a total weight of around 200/250 for .45 and 250/300 for .50. The weak spot in smokeless is the sabot if you shoot more than once and the barrels gets hot in the summer the sabot get soft and accuracy goes away. With a gas check, lots of lube and a proper sized bullet we maybe able to reach the same velocity as the boys shooting cast bullets from a brass cartridge. I doubt 2600 ft per second is reachable thought.

[mooman76]

Don't really know about the GC thing but it sounds like something you could try. The Lee REALs run in the weight you are talking about and might be doable. One thing the T/C lube 1000 and the wonder lube claim you can shoot BP and subs while using this lube and it krrps the corrosin from happening right away. I tried it and kept a close eye on my gun for a week and it didn't start to corrode/rust. You can also wipe this on your gun and it helps water proof it. Of coarse you are not going to get any where near 2600 but it might be something you can think about. There are also things you can do to help water proof your MLs too.

[45r]

I would let the rifle cool down between shots to preserve the sabot.I shoot on my property so waiting is no big deal. Might not get 2600 fps accuracy load but if I could get more than 2200 I'd be happy and the recoil would be better than a 50.At least there is no leading with a sabot and no need for brass in a ML.There are many things I haven't tried with a smokeless type ML.Seems like it might be worth the effort.I already have the powder,primers,etc.Just need the rifle and a mold.Gives me an excuse to get another gun and mold for it.

[Willbird]

There too is the option of paper patched bullets, something I am fiddling with right now for my gun.

Ohio law says "38 caliber" for the muzzle loaders, in correct terms that means a .380 bore size, and a larger groove size...in actual practice I do not know how they decide.

But building a .375 using say an Adams and Bennet unturned barrel blank will sure provide some information anyway..

Some very avid BP shooters shoot EVERY day and do not clean their guns every day. But then they are taking them inside too........

Bill