Flame cutting any Make or model ?

[Xcaliber]

My question here is about flame cutting of the strap on DW and Rugers when it was 1st observed . Knowing that light bullets and heavy charges of ball powders was causing this problem with the .357 Maximum in Revolvers. Does this still hold true for just any revlover today in a .357 Magnum of any make or model ? I like using Ball powders like 296 , 110 and the like in my .357 revolver. They aren't full blown loads but will that cut the strap on my DW .357 MAG . after so much time if any . I use 4227 in my .357 MAX now... but sure do love ball powders for ease of
metering purposes.

[Dale53]

I have used nothing but ball powders in my .44 Magnum revolvers for many years (H110, 296, and WC 820) without problems.

FWIW
Dale53

[S.R.Custom]

S&W to this day still cautions against light bullets and heavy doses of ball powder...

It's like this-- regardless of the caliber, a steady diet of flyweight bullets and 296 is going to burn up your gun. End of story. Is 4227 that much of a chore to use?

[Xcaliber]

No sir ..Supermag in fact I like 4227 just as much. Thats what I use in my DW .357Maximum. I just wanted to know if that held true today with any revolver regardless of make and model. ...4227 is a lot better than stick powder LOL..

[Xcaliber]

I like ball powders to ..and I noticed you have used them for years. Are they full blown charges you are using ? I'm using ball powder in my Magnum and using 4227 in my Maximum. But the charges are mild so my daughter won't be afraid to shoot. Mild loads if you will. I was just curious if using ball powders was still an issue in todays guns revolver made in any make or model.?

[9.3X62AL]

My first L-frame S&W (Model 586 x 6") went through roughly 12K of full-house 357 Magnum rounds stoked with WW-296 and 125-160 grain J-words.......plus another 10K-12K of various medium-high to firewalled castings, all this in about 8 years' time. The top-strap showed a little flame-cutting by that time, and a buddy of mine who later went to Lassen Community College's gunsmithing program (disabled deputy) took a real interest in the example.

That was circa 1988. He still has it, still shoots it, and it runs very well. The top-strap flame-cutting isn't a good thing, but I'm not sure it is as bad as we sometimes regard it as being. Having the time and wherewithal to shoot a revolver into a worn condition isn't all bad.

[Xcaliber]

Thanks...thats just what I wanted to know. The subject back in those days was about the DW's and Rugers in .357 Maximum (SuperMag ) chamberings for that point and time in Revolvers. Now more than 15 -20 yrs. later ..i was just wondering if that still held true BUT in reg. .357 Magnums using ball powders with todays modern guns . I didn't know if maybe they made the revolver stronger in metal strength or what . I still have a few cannisters of WW296 left and 1 of H-110
My daughter loves to shoot the Magnum but I don't load it full bore. I am working her slowly up to that point for now.

[Super38]

Okay, I have to jump in on this band wagon since I am newer to reloading and I was going to start loading up a few hundred magnums.

Those powders mentioned, are they the only ball powders or is Alliant Power Pistol included on this list. I am not loading to the max but to the higher end of the spectrum, shall I be concerned? What exactly should I be looking for on the revolver (especially since I am not the original owner)?

By the way, the gun in question is a Colt Trooper MK III (if this has any bearing on the stability of the strap.)

Thanks

Super38

[dale2242]

I see no reason ball powders would flame cut worse than any other. The only revolver that I have seen with much flame cutting was a Ruger SBH 44 mag. The forcing cone also had erosion. The owner said he had shot 20K rounds of heavy 2400 loads with cast boolits through it. The gun still shot well. Looked like normal wear for the number of rounds he had fired. I doubt most of you will ever put 20K rounds of heavy loads through a 44 Mag. Not to worry. Shootem if you gottem....dale

[badgeredd]

The flame cutting can be found on my 375 SuperMag also. I'd have to guess but I suppose I have fired maybe 5,000 rounds from it. Until fairly recently I have shot a 200 and a 220 grain jacketed bullet in it extensively. I wasn't aware the use of light projectiles was part of the cause of the flame cutting. I do recall reading (don't recall where though) the flame cutting stopped after a while because of the changes in the gas venting and metallurgy of the area. I now use a heavier boolit driven quite hard and it doesn't seem to continue to flame cut. BTW my main powder with J-words was H110. Knowing the primary reason for the flame cutting is the use of light bullets driven hard, I no longer do that with any revilver, regardless of powder.

Edd

[winelover]

Maximum charges of BlueDot, together with 158 grain J-word bullets, eroded the forcing cone of my Colt Python and left indentations in the recoil shield from the ejector. Barrel had to be replaced after approximately 6000 rounds but it sure did shoot up to that point.:bigsmyl2: That was the main reason I took up casting.

Winelover:cbpour:

[44man]

S&W to this day still cautions against light bullets and heavy doses of ball powder...

It's like this-- regardless of the caliber, a steady diet of flyweight bullets and 296 is going to burn up your gun. End of story. Is 4227 that much of a chore to use?
I used 4227 in my Ruger .357 max and it flame cut just like any other powder. I was surprised how few shots it took because I was using 200 gr rifle bullets.
I have never seen flame cutting in any other caliber but from what I hear, it might be a problem in the .460. Someone told me S&W uses some kind of insert that can be replaced.

[9.3X62AL]

I've seen similar inserts in the light-alloy S&W J-frame 357 Magnum revolvers.

I have a Model 686 x 4" now, and despite a lot of 1935-level Magnum loadings and whole lot more cast loads--est. round count +/- 7,000--not one bit of top-strap cutting or erosion has occurred to date. Same story with a Bisley Blackhawk in 357, and I REALLY stomp on the gas with that critter at times.

As far as WW-296 goes, I would not down-load that powder under 90% of a published load weight. It doesn't like low loading densities, and REALLY doesn't like being compressed, either. This was via a tech rep at Winchester circa 1990, and I've read similar cautions in other source materials. Just sayin'.

For down-loading the Magnums, I like Herco or Unique. A pound goes a LOT farther, and the pressure environment of 800-1000 FPS loads is far more appropriate for these faster fuels.

[Wally]

My Model 27 has had 25,000 cast bullet rounds shot through it---there is a sizeable groove cut into the top strap on the gun, so much so it makes me wonder why this is of such poor design. I should think it should have been designed to prevent this from occuring---I now slip in a piece of steel shim stock held in by the barrel to prevent further flame cutting--I have to replace it after 300~500 shots.

[Shuz]

I have a S&W Scandium frame 329PD that I've had to send back to the factory twice to have the steel insert top strap shield replaced due to flame/gas cutting. The 329PD is a .44 mag. I mainly use 2400 powder and boolits in the 225 to 230g range.

[376Steyr]

There is much talk about flame cutting, but has anybody ever actually seen a top strap cut all the way thru, or broken at the groove that was cut? I agree that flame cutting is unsightly, but it shouldn't impact the servicablilty of a revolver until the top strap actually separates.

[Wally]

There is much talk about flame cutting, but has anybody ever actually seen a top strap cut all the way thru, or broken at the groove that was cut? I agree that flame cutting is unsightly, but it shouldn't impact the servicablilty of a revolver until the top strap actually separates.

I have never seen one cut all the way through...but to me it is just unimaginable that a revolver could not be designed so that there is none.

[S.R.Custom]

It's not just top strap cutting that's an issue. High mileage K-frame .357 S&Ws were also known to suffer from perforated gas shield bushings on the cylinder.

And no, the new guns from S&W made from the latest tricky materials are not immune. Here is an interesting piece of paper included with my 386...

If loading light bullets really fast, the culprits are not just ball powders; Blue Dot, as has been mentioned, will do it too. In fact, any double base powder loaded to similar pressure levels will do it. If a steady diet of sizzling flyweights is desired, another good powder to use is SR4756. It, like 4227, is a single base powder and won't develop the flame temps that eat up guns.

[Wally]

It's not just top strap cutting that's an issue. High mileage K-frame .357 S&Ws were also known to suffer from perforated gas shield bushings on the cylinder.

And no, the new guns from S&W made from the latest tricky materials are not immune. Here is an interesting piece of paper included with my 386...

If loading light bullets really fast, the culprits are not just ball powders; Blue Dot, as has been mentioned, will do it too. In fact, any double base powder loaded to similar pressure levels will do it. If a steady diet of sizzling flyweights is desired, another good powder to use is SR4756. It, like 4227, is a single base powder and won't develop the flame temps that eat up guns.

Yes, I have that on my Model 27 as well...why don't they use a material that cannot be damaged from this?

[S.R.Custom]

Why don't the auto makers build cars that won't rust?

[Grapeshot]

My question here is about flame cutting of the strap on DW and Rugers when it was 1st observed . Knowing that light bullets and heavy charges of ball powders was causing this problem with the .357 Maximum in Revolvers. Does this still hold true for just any revlover today in a .357 Magnum of any make or model ? I like using Ball powders like 296 , 110 and the like in my .357 revolver. They aren't full blown loads but will that cut the strap on my DW .357 MAG . after so much time if any . I use 4227 in my .357 MAX now... but sure do love ball powders for ease of
metering purposes.

I read about flame cutting over thirty years ago when I got my first S&W .357 Magnum M-28. After doing some research, it seemed that all revolvers tend to flame cut the top strap slightly and then STOP. It has somethig to do with unburned powder particles spraying out through the barrel cylinder gap when the gun is firing.

[Multigunner]

I see no reason ball powders would flame cut worse than any other. The only revolver that I have seen with much flame cutting was a Ruger SBH 44 mag. The forcing cone also had erosion. The owner said he had shot 20K rounds of heavy 2400 loads with cast boolits through it. The gun still shot well. Looked like normal wear for the number of rounds he had fired. I doubt most of you will ever put 20K rounds of heavy loads through a 44 Mag. Not to worry. Shootem if you gottem....dale

Higher temperature and higher molecular weight of gases of combustion.
Bullseye for example has about 58% nitroglycerine, an energetic component.
Nitroglycerin produces Carbon Dioxide while Nitro Cellulose produces Carbon Monoxide. The heavier molecules carry heat and kinetic energy more efficiently so they erode steel faster.

I've seen erosion cutting of the thick cylinder arbor of a Colt Cap&Ball Revolver using only BP or pyrodex, so just about any propellant will cause gas cutting.

[NoDakJak]

I have a Colt Police Positive chambered to 38 Special that was manufactured in the early seventies. It exhibits very little use or wear except for rather severe flame cutting. Why? Darned if I know! During the forties, fifties and early sixties Herco was a rather popular powder for this cartridge. Somewhere during the mid to late sixties I read an article stating that the high flame temperatures of this powder was one of the main causes of flame cutting. I don't know if the author was right or not but I quit using Herco in revolvers at that time. I still have several pounds left in a eight pound canister and it is still my favorite in the 9mm.
Neil

[bobke]

any chance the flamecutting is a confluence of high flame temp powders, very high pressure, barrel cylinder gap or improperly fit bullets to chamber throat? seems the gap and potential blow by could have as much to do with this condition as any other factor. throw in very high pressure and burn temp and off you go.

something's contrary though. i'd resisted using h110 in my 45 colt for moderate plus loads because i didn't think it'd work well at the same velocity range as powders like hs6/hs7/blue dot/unique/aa5/etc, but to my great surprise-and thank you 44man for the shared wisdom- leading almost went away using h110 and std primers. what a relief, as i was losing faith this bisley could be made to shoot. all said, the theoretically higher flame temp of this ball powder shouldn't have done what it did, but seemed to burn cooler on bullet bases than the others mentioned. any comment as to why?

is there reference to burn temp anywhere, beyond burn rate charts or just assume that all double base powders will burn hotter than the single base variety? not meaning to take this off track, but think this all relates to the condition we're talking about here.

[44man]

A good point on gap measurements. Too small will allow higher gas pressure escaping in a narrow, high pressure squirt, like a plasma cutter.
I also wonder about soft boolits spreading out in the cone and allowing more gas to escape out of the gap before moving the boolit again.
Too much to think about and too much we don't know.
A revolver might live a longer life with a larger gap and since velocity loss is so low, it might be a better choice.
Have any of you read the latest test between revolvers and single shots? There was no difference in velocity between them to speak of. Some single shots were slower if I remember.
Compare it to a light bulb and a laser at the gap.

[missionary5155]

Good morning & Merry Christmas !!!
The common culprit I have seen over the years is the "NEED" some have for the Super - Velocity Underweight for caliber projectiles. Laser speed & no need to think about trajectory.
Well there are no FREE meals & every action has an equal corresponding reaction.
On tanks we called it "Wear Factor". Low velocity High Explosive Plastic (HEP) rounds had a wear factor of .5. Super high velocity Sabot ( 37mm tungstin core in plastic discarding jacket) flew at 5000+ fps and had a wear factor of 4.
So on revolvers there is that barrel gap culprit that gets the full force of all that "wear factor". Steel is only steel. Even Titanium will cut with enough concentrated heat. So it would not matter what matterial was used to build a frame. Something has to give.
Maybe the simple solution is a heavier boolit moving at a slower velocity. Seems to kill a critter as dead.
As far as waiting for a cylinder strap to burn through and FLY APART in my face ??? You have got to be kidding. There is no such thing as a "Nice polite firearm destroying event". You may escape without bodily harm... but can you garentee everyone will when the event happens? I find out you are willingly firing an unsafe firearm next to me and NOT advising me of that fact , I will react. Maybe you should have the privaledge of getting up each morning for 10 days and squiting an antibiotic into the blown away eye socket of a young man who was in the vicinity of some Idiot who no longer thought being responsible with high pressures was important. I do not mean to be gruff.... BUT think about what you are suggesting. There are some NEW shooters about who may think that is a safe action.
Unsafe firearms are UNSAFE !

[44man]

Is it the light bullet though? I was shooting 200 gr bullets and only shot a few 180 gr out of my gun. I was not loading to max with 4227 either.
It did not take many shots before I started to see the cut. It is why I am thinking the gap was too small.
I sold the gun years ago like a fool, it is a collectors item now.
I will say it was deadly accurate. I took it to an IHMSA shoot just to sight it in, fresh out of the box having only shot it at 50 yards working a load. I shot a 39 just sighting the gun. I missed the first turkey.

[Grapeshot]

For what it's worth, a lot of manufacturers are cutting a small divot just behind the barrel under the top strap that reduces or eliminates gas cutting. The groove that is cut by the expanding gasses only goes a few thousandths of an inch anyway, and the extra distance it has to travel to get to the metal of the top strap is sufficient to slow it down enough to negate any further damage.:Fire:

[machinisttx]

There is much talk about flame cutting, but has anybody ever actually seen a top strap cut all the way thru, or broken at the groove that was cut? I agree that flame cutting is unsightly, but it shouldn't impact the servicablilty of a revolver until the top strap actually separates.

Flame cuts will only get so deep and then the erosion will stop.

[Bucks Owin]

Flame cuts will only get so deep and then the erosion will stop. You beat me to it. Top strap cutting is self limiting. Here's a link to some facts about top strap cutting from Glen Fryxell's article regarding a notorious "self destructor" the .357 Maximun.....Dennis (Who'd love to buy a "ruined" 10.5" Ruger .357 Max for cheap! [smilie=1:) http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell357Max.htm

[9.3X62AL]

Time to REALLY stir the pot, now. IT'S ALL THE FAULT OF BEVEL-BASED BOOLITS!

[runfiverun]

i knew it,i knew it.
super light ones too.
the big supermags/maximums were designed to throw the heavier boolits at the regular velocity of the lighter ones not shoot the lighter ones at rifle velocities anyways.
and now that i think of it the beveled bases would help stop flame cutting.

[S.R.Custom]

For what it's worth, a lot of manufacturers are cutting a small divot just behind the barrel under the top strap that reduces or eliminates gas cutting. The groove that is cut by the expanding gasses only goes a few thousandths of an inch anyway, and the extra distance it has to travel to get to the metal of the top strap is sufficient to slow it down enough to negate any further damage.

A bevel cut/radius on the front edge of the cylinder does the same thing. But neither does anything to stop barrel-throat erosion.

[MtGun44]

My 329 has maybe 600-1000 rounds thru it, mostly 2400 and some H110/W296
100% 240 or heavier bullets with a great majority, like 85-90%, were Keith 250s.

The thin gas cutting shield (looks like it may be about .005 stainless steel) is either
almost cut thru or is cut thru, extremely hard to see properly without strong light
and even magnification. I plan on sending it in to S&W one of these days.

Bill

[BLTsandwedge]

Think I'll try a metal shim. My DVDs see plenty of gas cutting.....and it ain't purdy.

Tom

[Ekalb2000]

Does this mean the 100 rounds I just loaded up with 13grs of 2400 pushing a 125gr boolit will cut my top strap? Or are they below the high velocities?

[Bucks Owin]

I think this is much bruhaha over a non issue personally. It's unsightly, but self limiting as I see it. Maybe if one doesn't get too "anal" about cleaning that area, you'll get a little buildup of lead to protect the top strap to a degree? JMO, Dennis...

[Shuz]

On my first top strap shield failure on a 329PD, the shield actually broke and was hanging down so that the cylinder wouldn't turn as it should! With the scandium alloy frames, I'm not sure that the gas cutting is self-limiting.

[Bucks Owin]

On my first top strap shield failure on a 329PD, the shield actually broke and was hanging down so that the cylinder wouldn't turn as it should! With the scandium alloy frames, I'm not sure that the gas cutting is self-limiting. Well, could be. My guns are steel, haven't self destructed so far and I can't even pronounce scandnav, uh, scomvid, uh, scamsid.....uh, that alloy.....:D Dennis (Sounds like one should stay away from the Roman candles with it though...:Fire:)

[John Van Gelder]

Just happened on to this thread looking for something else. It seems that there are a lot of questions about top strap gas cutting. This is just a fact of life with revolvers. In most instances the cutting will go to a point and then no longer be a problem. I have never heard of a top strap being cut completely through. I read an article in the American Rifleman several years ago, that addressed this topic. The author did a lot of load testing, with very high intensity .357 Magnum ammunition. After 80,000 rounds he sent one of his S&W test guns to Smith to have the top strap re-welded. He did not think it was really necessary, but mostly sent the gun in to have it tightened and re-tuned.

Most of us will probably never fire that many rounds in a lifetime.

The root cause is gas and high velocity particles. We point fingers at the light weight high velocity loads, but gas cutting was a problem with black powder guns as well.

The old Colt revolvers used to have a cut out in the top strap right at the point above the barrel/cylinder gap, the first Colt I noticed this on was a 1917 in .45AR/ACP, a pretty low pressure round.

The S&W alloy frame guns have an "anti etching" strip that can be replaced. In years gone by I used to make such an item for my "N" frame Smiths using a piece of a double edged razor blade and some contact cement, when the strip started to show signs of etching I just replaced it.

In my experience the S&W guns seem to be more prone to top strap cutting than do the Rugers, different alloys and manufacturing methods. But over time and enough high intensity loads the Ruger top straps will also cut.

I guess the bottom line here is that "it happens" if you are concerned, there are preventative measures and you can always ship you gun back to the manufacturer and have the top strap re-welded.

Any good hand gun will last for several generations with a little care..