Anybody know the real LBT story?

[charger 1]

Got two molds on order know. When I get up in the morning and check the email I have about 5 different ones ranging from Verals gone till early july,to we might have it after they've already told me they don't,to We don't know when Veral will be back,to etc etc etc..What gives?????anyone know

[NucEm]

This is what i got in my mail:
""""............................. be limited as to what services LBT can provide to you until the first part of July, 06. Lube, lap, hardness testers, and new printing of books are available in July '06, and we are out of catalogs until July, 06.......................""""
So i guess its just wait and see:coffee:

[charger 1]

This is what i got in my mail:
""""............................. be limited as to what services LBT can provide to you until the first part of July, 06. Lube, lap, hardness testers, and new printing of books are available in July '06, and we are out of catalogs until July, 06.......................""""
So i guess its just wait and see:coffee:


So given that that is what everybody is getting and I've talked to a lot of everybodies,AAAANNNNDDDD we don't even know for sure when or if in july Veral is back,and if he gets cutting molds right away. I'd say we be lookin at late next winter for a mold......MAYBE<KINDA<SORTA:roll:

[PatMarlin]

Lesson is once you get on our Governments "S" list, you've got problems.. :(

[charger 1]

Lesson is once you get on our Governments "S" list, you've got problems.. :(

I wonder what that means though? I meanGood God, for a guy to have to be away from home from who knows when till july(they think) man, I wonder if I should get my money order back????

[Howdy Doody]

From another forum, Greybeards Outdoors

Guys Veral is not going to be with us here on the Forum for awhile. I think perhaps by early July 2006 he should be able to again post with us. He is also NOT at the shop to make moulds.

But his wife Judy does have a fair supply of moulds he was able to make up before his departure. So call her at 208-267-3588 to see if she has in stock what you need. She can also take orders for Veral to make when he returns to work on them. She has lube and books in stock for immediate delivery as well. Other items I'm not sure of but call and ask.

In the mean time don't get discouraged because he doesn't respond to your posts here as he doesn't have internet access where he is at this time. He will get to them when he returns and will get busy making any moulds ordered while he is away also. Mould production is expected to resume in early July.
_________________
Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises

[Murphy]

While I have never owned any LBT boolits, let alone a mold from Veral, I do know that the gentleman has had a rather tough time of it lately.

I have never corresponded with Veral, nor used any of his products. I have always heard nothing but good about the man. Considering his contribution to the world of quality boolit molds and handgunning in general, a little lee way for a brother of the silver stream?

I can understand those of you who have a mold on order and been waiting. However, I'm pretty sure the gentleman would much rather be making molds than what he is currently occupied with.

Respectfully,

Murphy

[charger 1]

From another forum, Greybeards Outdoors





In the mean time don't get discouraged because he doesn't respond to your posts here as he doesn't have internet access where he is at this time. He will get to them when he returns and will get busy making any moulds ordered while he is away also. Mould production is expected to resume in early July.
_________________
Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises


I get the feeling from the words expected to resume
I keep hearing. compounded by the fact that just from my little corner of canuck town he's been sent quite a pile of orders. I'd say realisticaly, dont hold your breath

[Bass Ackward]

In several dealings I have had with Veral over the years, mostly before his troubles. The man has always been a stand up guy in the face of issues that happen to everyone in business. He always made everything right.

But I suppose that without that experience, I would be concerned too.

Try looking at it this way, you waited this long. That's just 30 days from now. If your money is gone, it's been gone for awhile and waiting another 30 days won't matter much to getting it back if that is how he is going to be. But, waiting on the other hand will keep you from looking / doing / saying something for which you later regret if you REALLY want those molds.

My .02.

[madcaster]

Hey guys and gals,
Until he gets back,look on Auction Arms for some casting machine LBT moulds,you can make a sprue plate and get it going with handles again,although it won't be quite so pretty as a unmodified LBT mould it WILL be FUNCTIONAL.
I am not the seller,no finacial intrest there,but I have done this and gotten some really good moulds at much lower prices.
Just trying to be helpful,I miss Veral too.

[Bret4207]

First off- I own some of his moulds and his book. He's has done a LOT for the cast booilt world, and I can see how someone could fall into the trap he did tax-wise given the right circumstances. That being said, there are enough other good custom boolit mould makers out there that I myself woudln't risk my money and time if I wasn't sure he was going to be able to furnish the product. My first choice would be Mountain Molds who is in the middle of a move and out of commision right now. There are other guys around whose names escape me at the moment. It's a matter of deciding if you want the "LBT" stamped mould or one of equal quality from another maker. Veral moulds aren't magic, but the name gives you a higher resale value.

[felix]

I have the most respect for any mold maker who verifies his mold to work 100 percent according to the buyer's expectations. Therefore, any one sending a brand new mold can be suspected of minimizing costs against the buyer. Maybe there should be two prices for a mold, letting the buyer pick whether the mold ordered will be used for design research (discarded after trials) or for genuine production. ... felix

[waksupi]

I don't know Veral personally. But, I will say, don't get in a panic. He is from an area, and era, where his word is good. People up in this part of the country work on Indian time pretty often. If he is detained for standing up for his rights, so be it. He will take care of business when he can.

[PatMarlin]

I have no doubt whatsoever Veral will make good on his orders. Just have to wait it out. As much as I like LBT molds, I'd wait and not sweat it.

Had he been a man with means to afford the best attorneys, none of this would have happened. But the average hard working American, taking a stand, and one that produces molds to make a boolit... :-?

[Willbird]

I have traded emails back and forth with Veral, he knew something was in the works maybe.

I did hear from the same places that other people have heard, that he can't make molds where he is.

I would bet even money that nobody is gonna get hosed out of their money, he seems to me to be an honest man in his dealings.

Bill

[omgb]

Veral and I talked on teh phone a few months ago and I also had some email correspondance from him a while back. My take on his problems' stems from some additional court descisions regarding his IRS troubles. Although he didn't spell it out, my guess is that he's spending a little more time in Club Fed. One thing you can be sure of, he will stand by his promise and he will deliver or refund your money.

I have three of his moulds and love them. They are the easiest moulds to use out of the two dozen or so I have. Still, if Dan comes back on line I may just try one of his for comparison.

[PatMarlin]

My LBT molds cast round accurate boolits, and drop like butter... :Fire:

I can't say that for any of the other off the shelf molds I have. There's always some little problem.. :Fire:

[woody1]

Here's the story in a nutshell:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/id/public_info/pr06/smith03282006.html
Regards, Woody

[charger 1]

Here's the story in a nutshell:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/id/public_info/pr06/smith03282006.html
Regards, Woody

I had the feeling about a zillion inquires ago that the no mold making prob, was indeed molding license plates....Thankyou for the UP FRONT Woody!!!!!..Don't get the idea as mentioned that I have a prob with Veral,his molds,or what he's doing.
However when you come back from a stay at the vertical motel or anywhere for that matter things just don't swing into full gear right away..He'll have things to get caught up on,restrictions,etc,etc...I would go double even money that the return of Veral july 2006 means you can look for your mold july 2007

[Bret4207]

Well, I guess that answers the question.

[Junior1942]

We all hate taxes, but where would we be without taxes? Surrounded by anarchy and without schools, roads, and hospitals, that's where. Veral is no better than the rest of us.

[waksupi]

We all hate taxes, but where would we be without taxes? Surrounded by anarchy and without schools, roads, and hospitals, that's where. Veral is no better than the rest of us.

Junior, the thing is, the government is not authorized to spend money on most things it does. Roads, forts, and magazines, are the only truely authorized expenditures the government can make. Education? The laws call for a free education. When you hold someone hostage, by threat of taking thier land, that is hardly free. The stealing of our money, is why we stand so close to revolution and civil war in this country. The government has forgotten, who is supposed to in charge. So, anarchy it will be.

[felix]

The basis of the Constitution (obviously not followed anymore) says that EVERYONE must benefit EQUALLY from government endeavors. ... felix

[charger 1]

The basis of the Constitution (obviously not followed anymore) says that EVERYONE must benefit EQUALLY from government endeavors. ... felix

If you don't like it for taxes there, come on up and try canuckistan:Fire: :(

[felix]

It is not a question of the tax itself, but what is done with the proceeds as well. ... felix

[omgb]

All and I do mean All, tax and spending bills at the Federal level must begin in the lower house. They require a majority vote in both the lower and upper house to pass and they must be actually signed into law by the executive. If we have spending issues with which we dissagree, then the place to deal with it is at the source, ie. the House of Representatives. These guys and gals are elected for just 2 year terms and must seek re-election every 12-18 months. The fact that only 4% of the incumbant congressmen do not get re-elected means that the 96% who are re-elected have a clear mandate from the voters to continue on doing as they do. That my friends is a cold, hard fact. Obviously, the people of this country are not voting wisely or at least, not along the same lines you and I would consider wise.

Taxation is handled exactly the same way. It is the HoR that proposes, writes and approves all IRS bills. Each and every new tax and all of the associated changes to the tax code, must not only be proposed in congress, but must also survive committee debate and modification long before they go for a vote in the House. Even then, the Senate must vote approval. Now maybe MT and ID are weak in the House with only one rep each. In the Senate however, they are in fact, politically much stronger than a state like CA because whereas in CA with over 30 million people and two senators, MT has fewer than 900,000 people and it still has two senators. That translates to a ratio or 15,000,000/1 verses 450,000/1. Thus, small states such as ID and MT could easily block tax bills IF they wanted to. In reality however, they have their own pork-filled agendas and frequently trade their votes in the Senate for assistance in the House getting special bills passed that benefit only their constituants. As rank as that is, it unfortunately is part of the checks and balances system.

Veral got bad advice concerning tax protesting. This often happens when slick talkers find men and women with strong convictions and moral values but not enough formal education concerning the governmental process to see the danger in some of these so-called "protests". Civil Dissobedience, for all of its glamour and romance, is not without a very real downside. Challenge the system outside of the legal channels and you will pay a heavy price. The government may be the crappiest teacher/parent/friend/provider ever created, but it is the best damn enforcer of law you could ask for. The government cannot love nor can it be compassionate, but damn folks, it can destroy, obliterate and restrain evil. The problem comes when (1), we become what the government sees as evil and (2) when the people forget the above points and try to use government as an agent of social compassion. Churches, charities, private foundations are the only agencies who are really designed to administer social mercy because they are by nature humane and compassionate. Indeed, they are so simply because they are small and personal. These same organizations are completely inept when it comes to major issues of restraining evil. Just try to go to war using the Catholic Church or even, try capoture and punish drug dealers or child molesters. Nope, agencies of love and compassion have no business attempting to be agencies of justice and law. Likewise, using the government to administer compassionate aid is a fools errand. Its very size makes it impersonal and therefore unable to be compassionate. By neccessity it must be impartial and that requires a "one size fits all" approach to suffering that simply does not work.

We are all angry with the waste adn abuse of our tax dollars. The realm of protest however is at the voting booth and at the campaign event. Speak out here. Picket, pamphlet, be heard and then vote and assist others in voting too. Then we can change things. Unfortunately, Veral exercised passion over reason and is now paying a heavy price for it. Ben Franklin once said that "...when passion governs, she rarely governs wisely". It would be wise to heed that wisdom. Those who would enslave us use our passion against us. When we fight them using reason and law, we win every time. When we resort to rash acts of passion, we are like children thrashing and flailing aganst a much calmer and larger adult. The end is always defeat.

[PatMarlin]

Veral told me they (the Feds) did not want him to make molds anymore. That maybe part of the problem too.

I hope he's not stuck on stupid, and still refuses to pay his taxes.. :roll: ...but it seems this may be ths case.

[omgb]

I just read in the paper where Laing Home Builders Inc., the nation's second largest private home builder has recently been sold to a Dubai firm for $1,000,000,000 The Arabs see this as an opportunity to penetrate the American Home Sellers market... Brother, are we in for it now. Without firing a shot the enemies of a free and Judeo-Christian world are taking our homes and our lands. You watch, if we try and resist, their lawyers will use our own legal system against us. You know, even those idiots in Mexico have laws prohibiting the ownership of real property by non-citizens. How can we be so stupid...

[PatMarlin]

That's right. Without firing a shot.

The Arabs can sit down and figure it out. We don't need a master degree to figure out what's going on. But what in the heck is with W? I don't think he's as bright as I once thought. There are no men in politics anymore.. :roll:

Greed has sold us out, and it will soon be to late. The younger generations will follow like sheep until something REALLY bad happens.

I say start an arab corporation boycott campain, but most people are more concerned about the ball game.

I take comfort in knowing God is in control, and it's his will anyway, what happens.. :drinks:

[omgb]

I am in total agreement. It's odd, whenever folks doubt that the Anti-Christ can actually exist let alone take over the US and the rest of the world I just remember things like this news story and then wonder how folks can be so myopic. OK, I'm breaking the rules here by getting religious so I'll quit. If I have offended anyone with my religious comments I apologize. Back to bullets.

[PatMarlin]

Consider this for instance...

I invented a product that I am now manufacturing myself. It is taking off. I've been approached by the 2 biggest companies in the world, that want to indorse my product and have me wholesale exclusively to them.

Even though it's a small industry as in numbers, theirs still money for me to be made.

It's a simple product to make, but prices are going through the roof on materials daily it seems. To hire help will be a huge expense and pain with all the regulations in California. Insurance costs, are ever increasing with the help of bloodthirsty scum sucking attorneys. Add the price of fuel, and that will insure costs will remain high.

I can still work my but off and make money, BUT if I fly over to China... simply pay for 1000 units to be made at PENNYS on the dollar, I can more than quadruple my profits without as much as cutting a piece of steel.

What would you do?

What is our country going to do?

The horse has already left the gate.. :roll:

[Ken O]

Consider this for instance...

I invented a product that I am now manufacturing myself. It is taking off. I've been approached by the 2 biggest companies in the world, that want to indorse my product and have me wholesale exclusively to them.

Even though it's a small industry as in numbers, theirs still money for me to be made.

It's a simple product to make, but prices are going through the roof on materials daily it seems. To hire help will be a huge expense and pain with all the regulations in California. Insurance costs, are ever increasing with the help of bloodthirsty scum sucking attorneys. Add the price of fuel, and that will insure costs will remain high.

I can still work my but off and make money, BUT if I fly over to China... simply pay for 1000 units to be made at PENNYS on the dollar, I can more than quadruple my profits without as much as cutting a piece of steel.

What would you do?

What is our country going to do?

The horse has already left the gate.. :roll:

Nicely stated, I totally agree Pat

[charger 1]

Consider this for instance...

I invented a product that I am now manufacturing myself. It is taking off. I've been approached by the 2 biggest companies in the world, that want to indorse my product and have me wholesale exclusively to them.

Even though it's a small industry as in numbers, theirs still money for me to be made.

It's a simple product to make, but prices are going through the roof on materials daily it seems. To hire help will be a huge expense and pain with all the regulations in California. Insurance costs, are ever increasing with the help of bloodthirsty scum sucking attorneys. Add the price of fuel, and that will insure costs will remain high.

I can still work my but off and make money, BUT if I fly over to China... simply pay for 1000 units to be made at PENNYS on the dollar, I can more than quadruple my profits without as much as cutting a piece of steel.

What would you do?

What is our country going to do?

The horse has already left the gate.. :roll:


And this has what exactly to do with LBT's tax issue ??

[Bret4207]

Doesn't have much to do with Veral at all. It's just the nature of this board to let the discusion ramble a bit. We don't get too excited about it. Among the rambling there's usually some darn good thoughts and info.

[charger 1]

Doesn't have much to do with Veral at all. It's just the nature of this board to let the discusion ramble a bit. We don't get too excited about it. Among the rambling there's usually some darn good thoughts and info.

Hey thats OKAY Too :coffeecom

[PatMarlin]

When you figure that out, you've figured the streets out.. :mrgreen: :coffee:

[porkchop bob]

Greed has sold us out, and it will soon be to late. The younger generations will follow like sheep until something REALLY bad happens.
When it is too good to be true, often it is. As Pat says, what sells us out is simple greed.

One solution is to stand back and to allow failure. When we insulate the young from failure, how will they learn to pick themselves up and to try again. A smart man learns from his failures, a wise man from the failures of others and the rest just never learn.

If the young is not learning, are we standing in the way?

Bob

[PatMarlin]

Well put.

Strange time we live in. What's happened to America's toughness?

I don't know where it's all going to shake out.

I guess going to prison would toughen you up, or break you. I can't imagine what it's like sitting in there. What someone like Veral has to go through. Specially at his age, sitting there watching all those lunatic hard heads... :roll:

[omgb]

One of the real problems we've brought upon ourselves is based on our unwillingness to accept failure and loss. We've gone over so far toward limiting risk in all areas of life, that we've become increasingly non-competitive. Mediocrity has become the norm. From our guns which no longer resemble finely crafted works of art to our schools that insist that every child is college material, we have regulated and assisted ourselves into blandness. Here's a flash, (are you listening liberal left?) not every child is academically inclined any more than every child is a natural born musician or artist. Some of us were born to work with tools; we have a knack for making things. Others were born to account and sort, they have a natural inclination and talent for seeing things in groups and finding points of commonality among those groups. Others still, were born to communicate. They have an inborn ability to see how others see, a kind of psychological empathy if you will, and as such, they should be our teachers and writers. Not all of these people would benefit from a college education. Some would do far better to go into an apprenticeship with masters of the trade. This is not the road that the left would have us take. Unfortunately, the stigma in our society is such that those who do not go to college are seen as intellectually and therefore socially inferior to those who do. (the truth is, the Left are the biggest promoters of this form of biggotry and eliteism) This is absolute garbage yet it's become so oft repeated that it is now accepted as fact.

Presently, in CA, there is a move to fund mandatory preschool. Supposedly this will improve a child's chances of doing well in school. That there is no hard evidence to support the exclusivity of such a claim is never dealt with. It promises to be good for the kids so to speak out against it ranks one in with those who are anti-youth and selfish. Preschool is no more the answer to failing schools than condoms are to AIDS. One must get at the root behavior to fix the problem. Anything else is a band aid. The real issue with failing schools is failing parents. Neither crime, nor drugs nor poverty will make a child fail. What will do it every time though, is a parent who fails to actively and aggressively promote education in the home. In over 20 years as a educator I have seen it proved over and over again. Good parents triumph over bad environment every time. Liberals cannot accept this as true though largely because they believe that they and only they, know what good parenting and correct values are. Further, they also hate to admit that some people are moral failures and beyond redemption.

All of this comes from an error in thinking that begins with the fallacious assumption that people are basically good. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mothers don't teach their children to lie, steal, hit, or behave violently. No, mothers and fathers have to teach the exact opposite because basic human nature is that we should do that which promotes ourselves regardless of the damage done to others. Sociologists call this self-interest while theologians (and my old Sunday school teacher) call this a sin nature. We are all born selfish, lying, cheats who believe that our self is to be served by others. That folks, is the Darwinian/animal truth. Social institutions such as family, church, school, and government are supposed to hold us to an unnatural re: non-animal standard that promotes the opposite of those values. In other words, we are not to do as nature leads but rather to strive for another, more absolute standard of behavior.

It is this very standard that the left decries as enslaving and too strict. To that I say, damn straight it is strict. To fail to embrace its strictness is to embrace chaos instead. If everyone's desires are legitimate and therefore to be acted upon, then we have anarchy. Hence, we must have a standard set of expectations and moral values to which we all adhere and promote that call for much more than mere animal survival behavior.

Some will say this is ill-liberal and smacks of totalitarianism. To that I say bologna. Tell me, how much less enslaving is it to be at the mercy of one's desires? How much liberty is found in chaos? We used to teach that my rights end where your nose begins. Now we work hard to find some way in which every one's rights are singularly important, where the individual reigns supreme over the society. That friends is the road to death and enslavement.

The better road, the higher path if you will, is to set a standard of behavior that permits each to rise and fall according to his own merit while at the same time, refusing to permit preditation upon others. We must accept that equality of condition is a social impossibility and emphasise instead, equality under the law. Even insistence upon equality of opportunity is impossible in a free society. Tell me, how, without governmental manipulation, can everyone have access to the same opportunity? The answer is it can't be done. Unless you are willing to take from some who have and hand over to others who have not, this is an impossibility. Worse, even if you take this approach, given that we do not all have the same basic talents and abilities, there is no way to ensure that the ability to utilize these opportunities will be equal rendering the entire premise falicious.

Thus we come full circle. We are not all equally equipped to succeed in life nor can we be. Only through permitting failure and refusing to artificially regulate the playing field beyond ensuring that misanthropic predators are removed from the game, can we ever hope to advance as a people or even to enjoy excellence albeit however brief and fleeting those moment may be.

[45 2.1]

A very pretty speech. One thing though, as all people aren't geared to go to college, there are some teachers that aren't in their proper calling in life and don't do what is needed to teach effectively (or at all in some cases). All the blame cannot go to the parents. Blame should go where it belongs.

[omgb]

You are correct, some who teach should not. However, even a bad teacher can be over come by good parenting. A teacher is but a passing moment in a child's life, a year at most. Rarely does one year make huge and lasting difference. They can to be sure, but other things must be added into the mix for just one bad teacher to ruin a child. If the parents, who are with the child for years on end, promote strong values, hold children accountable, add praise and love to the mix, a lousy teacher will not be able to undo that.

However, it is next to impossible for even a wildly fantastic teacher to over-ride years of bad parenting. It happens, but it's so rare as to be the stuff we love to make movies about.

In truth, one must look at it this way. There are professional teacher and there are de facto teachers. Professional teachers are those who are paid a salary to teach a particular subject and follow a certain curriculum. These people form very temporary relationships with their pupils. De facto teachers are what parents and family members are. These individuals draw no salary for their work but have a profound and primary teaching role none the less. Rather than being there for a particular course or a certain academic year, these teachers are with a child for life, well into adulthood. As such, they form the bulk of what is learned and assimilated. Should they fail to fill the need, something; be it society, natural tendencies or friends/peers/TV/gangs will, as the need to learn is like the need to breath, it cannot be denied.

So I stand by what I said. Good parents equals good students equals good people equals good societies.

[45 2.1]

So I stand by what I said. Good parents equals good students equals good people equals good societies.

All it takes is ONE good teacher to awake the curiosity in a child, which can last a lifetime. Then again, i've seen a children that is surrounded by good parents, teachers and society revert to an evil lifestyles. Like a very good friend has said: each one of his children had a complete different personality from birth that was unchangeable despite parental intervention. 3 out of 4 wasn't bad i'd say.

[Dale53]

omgb;
I have been a student of human behavior all of my life. I started out as a paper boy, then an appliance repairman, then thirty years as a Claims Representative for a major insurance company. I have been in every type household known to man (from a welfare recipient to a Presidential Cabinet Member). I have three children and three grand children. "Bad is automatic, good is learned behavior".

I cannot agree with you more. You are absolutely correct.

Dale53

[PatMarlin]

Conservative teacher?

Boy are you a rare breed RJ.. :mrgreen:

I come from a family of teachers. Mom is a liberal, 2 Master degrees... one from Cal State U, and the other from UC Davis .She taught at my HS when I was attending. Out of all of my mom's colleagues, the shop teachers were the conservatives. Why? They knew how to get stuff done in the real world.

I'm 46, and when in HS in the 70's, they sat a kid down throughout much of his years to find what he had an aptitude for. Further education, or other occupational skills that you have mentioned above.

Mine- (obviously not English) could have gone either route, but I hated school and the only thing that got me through was shop and music.

I remember the start of the downward incline in the 80's. I remember the push for the three "R"'s and the closure of shop, music, and ROP or Regional Occupation Programs. I remember thinking to myself at such a young age, "these politicians don't get it."

Many otherwise talented kids fell by the wayside and went into drugs and gangs, because like me, they couldn't function in a structured class room.

And I gotta tell ya I know of some seriously talented craftsman that came out of my school, and are making some big bucks today from their skills.

Everything I learned in shop, and music I've applied to my own businesses.

Today they can't even keep a (once spotless) school clean. I was shocked when I went back and saw the once polished haul ways dusty and dirty. Gum and graffiti everywhere.

This is how it goes in California anyways.. :roll:

[omgb]

I want to be sure I make one thing clear, a teacher can damage a child and a teacher can inspire a child. Too many examples of each exist to support the contrary. likewise, even good parents can raise a child from hell. however, the usual is as I stated, good parenting over-rides bad teaching at school. likewise, bad parenting or the lack there of of any parenting, usually leads to disaster and anti-social behavior. Failure to understand that evil exists and is real is another common liberal error.

My take on liberal thinking is that like most humanism (and that's what it is) the human is the highest evolved form of life. Thus, human wisdom and human reason reign supreme. This of course must lead to relativism for all human experience and thus all human reason is relative to the individual.

Conservatives such as myself, believe in a being higher than man. I call that being God. God is not man and man is not God. Man being a product of God, can and does share some traits in common. We demand attention, we create, we plan for the future, we make art, music, we dream and imagine. Since we are the product of a creator, we are His property to command. This runs into problems when we demand our will above His. Some even go so far as to say His will cannot be known therefore only man's will is important. What this really is is nothing more than thinly veiled humanism for those who are not ready to say there is no God or that God was created by men rather than men by God. Either way, it leads to relativism and relativism leads to chaos.

For those who believe in a creator, there are universal and absolute moral imperatives that never change and never evolve. These moral absolutes constitute our concept of right and wrong. Violation of these precepts is called sin. It is so whether or not one even knows that such precepts exist. Since we are born ignorant of these divine precepts, we are born sinners. It is the job of our families and our communities to teach us these precepts and the need to obey them. If either of these fail to do their job, the individual will be without rudder and will drift from one concept of right to another. We see this in gang kids all of the time. They substitute loyalty to God's precepts for loyalty to the gang's code of behavior. In much the same way that many of us draw security and purpose from serving traditional Judeo/Christian precepts and values, so to do these gangsters draw purpose and fulfillment. In most cases, had parents and community provided the basis for a better way of living and had actually lived those values themselves and modeled them for their children, there would be no attraction to gangs. Of course, there will be exceptions, but for the most part, what I have just said is true.

So, we should pay our taxes and render unto Caesar that which is his until we vote out the Caesars we don't like and vote in the ones we agree with. To do otherwise is to invite chaos and destruction.

[Bullshop]

Too bad I cant talk religion here cause the stuff I am seing here is right from the good book.
BIC/BS

[omgb]

All truth is God's truth. It matters not whose mouth from which it proceedes. :drinks:

[Harry O]

> Education? The laws call for a free education.

I don't recall that the Constitution said anything about an education, let alone a "free" education. If I am wrong, let me know the Article and Section.

In any case, if the laws (other than the Constitution) call for a "free" education, how is it to be paid for? There is no such thing as free. Anyone who uses the term is fooling themselves.

I don't like what my government is spending a lot of my tax money on, but I see too often people who post on these websites want certain benefits provided by the government, but don't want to pay any taxes for them (roads, sewers, bridges, snow removal, pothole patching, etc). It doesn't work that way. You don't have a choice in that -- the ONLY choice you have is the person you vote for.

The only way to reverse the present course of government is to elect people who agree with you (me or us). No more spending street money on gay memorial parks (no exaggeration -- it happened). Unfortunately, far too many gunowners vote for politicians who would suspend our rights and waste our money -- because their church, union, or fraternal organization says so. I remember seeing an article a few years ago where a gunshow organizer in California checked their mailing list of people who visited the gunshow against voter registration in the State. A remarkably small number were registered. As long as that is the case, we will continue to go down the road were are going now.

[charger 1]

Too bad I cant talk religion here cause the stuff I am seing here is right from the good book.
BIC/BS

Don't bug me ifin you do

[omgb]

Taxes to fund public education go all the way back to the Massachusetts Bay colony and the pilgrims. Later, under the Articles of Confederation (our first constitution) two land ordinances were passed that called for setting aside parcels of government land to be later developed and or sold off to provide funding for public schools. The Land Ordinance of 1785 was the most aggressive of these. It was believed that only an educated people could maintain the Republican spirit and involvement needed to maintain the new state.

All of the western states adopted similar tax rules although in the early days of the 19th century, many schools required that teachers "board around" that is, to stay with different families in the district in an effort to provide a living for the faculty.

In the latter part of the 19th century, reformers such as John Dewey actively sought out greater public funding for schools. Large cities like Chicago with huge immigrant populations eager embraced this new tax-based system as it was seen as the perfect tool for Americanizing all of the newly arrived.

In the 1930s, the New Deal expanded the federal role in education by making education a cabinet-level branch of the government. During the 1950s, the government expanded its role in education even further with the creation of the National Science Advisory Board. The federal government was concerned that we were lagging behind the Soviets in Science education and the American schools were turning out inferior students. Of course, Johnson's Great Society and the War on Poverty of the 1960s called for even greater federal spending in an effort to end the cycle of poverty that had taken hold of our inner-city youth. Nixon's New Federalism and his emphasis on forced busing and Affirmative Action expanded the role even further. Now it's No Child Left Behind that's driving the cart. So, that's it in a nutshell. Nothing in the Constitution exactly except maybe the 14th amendment. That sucker doesn't address education directly but has become a catch-all for just about everything.

[PatMarlin]

And this has what exactly to do with LBT's tax issue ??


Don't bug me ifin you do

Charger,

Seems like maybe you would get a little bent out of shape of this thread didn't go the way you would like with the comments posted above? Personally, if a guy wants to expand on a thought or an idea, I think that's fine, and that's one of the great things about our forum... you can do so.

I never understood why some people get offended when "their" precious thread is embellished upon? :roll:

[grumble]

In the 1930s, the New Deal expanded the federal role in education by making education a cabinet-level branch of the government. During the 1950s, the government expanded its role in education even further with the creation of the National Science Advisory Board. The federal government was concerned that we were lagging behind the Soviets in Science education and the American schools were turning out inferior students. Of course, Johnson's Great Society and the War on Poverty of the 1960s called for even greater federal spending in an effort to end the cycle of poverty that had taken hold of our inner-city youth. Nixon's New Federalism and his emphasis on forced busing and Affirmative Action expanded the role even further. Now it's No Child Left Behind that's driving the cart. So, that's it in a nutshell. Nothing in the Constitution exactly except maybe the 14th amendment. That sucker doesn't address education directly but has become a catch-all for just about everything.

RJ Talley needs to do a little more research on the Dept. of Education; it was begun by Jimmy Carter. From the DOE website:

"US Department of Education Web site.
September 24, 2002 Student Loan ABS Primer


History of US Department of Education
As part of a national strategy to offer economic security to all Americans, the US
Government developed comprehensive programs to encourage young people to
further their education. Congress established the DOE on May 4, 1980, in the
Department of Education Organization Act (Public Law 96-88 of October 1979). The
Department’s mission is to:
➤ Strengthen the federal commitment assuring access to equal educational
opportunity for every individual;
➤ Supplement and complement the efforts of states, the local school systems and
other instrumentalities of the states, the private sector, public and private
nonprofit educational research institutions, community-based organizations,
parents, and students to improve the quality of education;
➤ Encourage public, parental, and student participation in federal education
programs;
➤ Promote improvements in the quality and usefulness of education through
federally supported research, evaluation, and sharing of information;
➤ Improve the coordination of federal education programs;
➤ Improve the management of federal education activities; and
➤ Increase the accountability of federal education programs to the President, the
Congress, and the public.
Although the DOE is one of the newer cabinet-level agencies, its history is
significant. President Andrew Jackson signed legislation in 1867 creating the first
DOE. Its main purpose was to gather information and statistics about schools, but
many people of the day feared that it might exercise too much control over local
schools. Thus, the first DOE was demoted to the Office of Education in 1868.


Over the years, the office remained relatively small, operating under different titles
and housed in various government agencies, including the US Department of the
Interior and the former US Department of Health, Education, and Welfare (now the
US Department of Health and Human Services). Beginning in the 1950s, political
and social changes resulted in expanded federal funding of education. The expansion
of programs continued in the 1970s with national efforts to help racial minorities,
women, people with disabilities, and non-English-speaking students gain equal
access to education. In October 1979, Congress passed the US Department of
Education Organization Act, and in May 1980, the new agency began operations.

Furthermore, it wasn't Nixon who placed all the emphasis on school bussing, it was the Warren Court following the emphasis began by LBJ.

[omgb]

Nah, Reece Talley's research is good but what he didn't do was acurately fill in all of the details. True, the DOE was formed by Carter. However, the New Deal did involve the Federal Government at the cabinate level way back in 1932 as part of the New Deal. The Cold War and the launching of Sputnik caused congress to provide direct funding for science programs and curriculum re-alingment in late 1958 early 59.

[PatMarlin]

Now that I came back re-read my post above I see your comment could be taken two ways Charger...

Did you mean "It doesn't bug me if you do?" or "Don't bug me with it" in other words?

Either way, I probably over reacted, and it's really no big deal and I apologise if I missunderstood.. :drinks:

[Frank46]

Gentlemen, what we have here is a gov't on all levels that is way out of touch with reality. i'm in louisiana, and there are still folks living in motels and hotels. Some of those folks still have not had any response from fema. Fema, another four letter word here in louisiana. Yet our leaders in baton rouge and new orleans still are on their spend-it like there's-no- tommorow. Talk about out of touch. They held a evacuation drill and just about no one showed up cause no one was notified. And our so called leaders in the great capital of D.C. keep right on like nothing has happened. My heart goes out to the folks who lost everything. Our so called leaders from local, state and federal levels have really dropped the ball big time. Sorry for the rant, but it really gets me sad to see all the uneccessary suffering and hardship. They had a whole field of trailers sitting there but could not issue them cause they were sinking into the mud and were getting damaged.
Frank

[waksupi]

Frank, those people still sitting there waiting for help, are another product of government. People think the government owes them something after a disaster. It doesn't. But it has created a welfare mentality, and people won't get off thier asses, and do for thierselves. I would have moved on, found a job, and somewhere to live. At worst, they may have taken a job from an illegal alien. I'll bet the people from the small towns are back to work. Not so those from a big city. It is peculiar when massive blizzards hit the plains and mountains, no one offers aid. And no one asks for it. People in the country, do for thier selves, and for thier neighbors.

[PatMarlin]

Well put Ric.

Cracks me up when I saw a big news story of a guy living out of his truck when his Gubberment room money dryed up.

He says he can't get a job neither. All the while sittin in a brand new Dodge that he used his disaster proceeds on, and a cell phone.

Not mabey an older truck with a nice fully self contained camper, and some operating cash. But a $40,000 truck... :roll:

What can you do with people like that?

[MLR]

All this talk about Government help reminds me of a news story from last year.
Here in oklahoma we were having problems with alot of huge grass fires. One of the city newscasters made the comment that Government agencies needed more money because us poor country folks wouldnt know to leave the area without someone to tell them. :roll:
In the mean time the country folks not being properly trained in government assistance were busy helping their neighbors in their time of need.
Its a shame that we didnt know that we were supposed to sit in the fire an wait for big gov to take care of us.

Michael

[PatMarlin]

Isn't that what they call "country dumb".. :mrgreen:

[9.3X62AL]

Nah, but sitting in a fire zone waiting for The Government to tell you to evacuate is definitely "city smarts".

[waksupi]

Last time the government tried to "help" us up here, they burned around a half million acres of timber, and bunches of homes. They can keep thier help.

[flhroy]

Waksupi was that the fire you guys had a few years back. The fire where that picture of an Elk on a fire line came from. Its kind of hard to believe the following really happened during that fire.
There was a tanker with a load of water headed for those Montana Fires. He was eastbound out of Spokane on I-90. The driver wanted to carry a full load of water to feed the pumpers on the fire line. Now because the tanks are completly full the truck is over weight. It now weighs more then it is licensed to operate at in the state of Idaho. No more than a mile into Idaho is the Idaho State Port of Entry. The scale was OPEN. That Tanker was not allowed to leave the Port of Entry until he dumped enough water in the PARKING LOT to reach to his legal weight. This driver was forced to dump a substantial amount water on pavement instead of taking it to the fire. now that kind of government help I can do without.


Rant off

Roy

[waksupi]

Roy, yes, that type thing is usual with the government up here. One of thier most unforgivable blunders was the death of some of the firefighters in Idaho. They could have been saved by water dumps from helicopters that were in the immediuate area. But the rules prohibited them from dipping water from the stream in the area, due to endangered fish. While the stream was filling with ash, burning wood, and dirt, people died for the environmentalists.

[PatMarlin]

3 years ago they started a "Prescibed" burn up at a town in our county, on a hot, windy day to control starthistle.

Burned some 80 homes down, including the sheriff's and his price gun collection of old colts and winchesters.

The idiot guberment supervisor, had been shipped off to different divisions, after every blunder he had done in the past. Even after this one, they still didn't fire him.. :roll:

[Dusty Miller]

Aw C'MON you guys, stop yer whining!! You know the gov'ment is here to HELP!! How in hell could you all be so cynical?!:-D

[PatMarlin]

Don't worry man...

We're workin' on a plan right now to bust Veral outta there... :Fire:

Gonna set him up a shop in the back here at Cast Boolits, and he's gonna make molds for us.. [smilie=w: ..............:mrgreen:

[Frank46]

Waksupi, Well in some cases I'll definitely agree with you. Thats one reason why there were so many stuck in new orleans. They were waiting for the gov't to do something for them. In this case nothing was done. But there are cases where folks are still waiting for trailers. Through no fault of their own. When both hurricanes came through here most folks just went about getting their places cleaned up with all the trees that were damaged. Put the stuff by the road and the parish would pick it up. They got reimbursed by fema. The folks who's homes were ruined by rita here had it much worse. Did the local sherrif wait until fema stepped in. Nope, as soon as it was safe there were boats out getting folks to safety. Those same boats were turned away after katrina in new orleans. Frank

[charger 1]

Don't worry man...

We're workin' on a plan right now to bust Veral outta there... :Fire:

Gonna set him up a shop in the back here at Cast Boolits, and he's gonna make molds for us.. [smilie=w: ..............:mrgreen:


email reply:
I have NO 458's on the shelf. I'm very sorry to say. Veral will be back at the end of July. Please send your email request at that time to be sure Veral gets your request. Thank you!


early july,turns late july,turns early aug,turns late aug,etc etc. Like I said, trust me,I have first hand knowledge of how things go after crap like this...I'm not saying not to deal with him..I am saying I don't see things getting into full gear for a lllooonnnggg time

[9.3X62AL]

I have avoided comment on this thread until now, since I don't qute understand the government's thrust in the Veral Smith matter--or Martha Stewart's, either. When you contrast the alleged faux pas of these two folks with the likes of Skilling or Lay, it is hard for me to understand the harshness of sanctions imposed on these two citizens. Or why their actions were even pursued in the first place.

[robertbank]

Having read some of this thread take comfort in the fact your government's ability to screw up is matched step be step by the one North of you. Seems to me a governments ability to screw up varies in direct proportion to the intent in which they want to "Help".

Take Care

[felix]

Al, when we meet in person, I'll tell you some REAL stories, and WHY behind the scenes. ... felix

[charger 1]

Well its July. No word yet. Matter of fact beartooth(which sells his boolits pulled down his column)...HHHHHHMMMMMMM??????

[onceabull]

Charger 1: I'm thinking you meant Greybeard "pulled" Mr.Smith's column while he was "absent" as it's widely known that there is no "love lost" twixt him and Marshall Stanton @ Beartooth. at any rate, Mr.Smith has been back at posting in his forum at Greybeard since 7/2/6..fwiw. Onceabull

[omgb]

Veral is back on Greybeard. I just corresponded with him this AM.