Plainbase 30-06 loads?

[damron g]

I have been shooting the Pope/Ideal 308403 in CBA Military matches this last year and having "OK" results.I load with one case at the bench re-depriming and fingerseating the bullet 1/2 a band deep. I can get 1.25- 1.5 MOA for 10 sometimes ,but am frustersted by verticals even though the SD's and ES's are very low.Even the good groups have "tippers" as the bullet @ 1175-1350 fps never seems to be fully stable.its confusing because a 195g spitzer PB i have that is quite a bit longer is always stable at the same velocity!!Has anyone played with the Pope in Springers or P-17's? What powders and alloys have worked for you. Any Ideas??

George Damron
aka LINOWW

[30hrrtt]

Can't help you but welcome to the forum.

[dualsport]

I'd like to help you George but that's already above my pay grade! My take is you may have hit the wall where human and mechanical limitations will not allow any more improvement. The tipping may be a velocity issue, you're right. Any thoughts on using the 311284 without a GC? I just got a real nice double cavity from a guy in Washington.

[3006guns]

Although I know who Harry Pope was I've never had the privledge of owning one of his mold designs.

I've never had much luck with cast spitzer boolits. Although they "look" like the "real thing", they have a tendency to be less accurate than one of the Loverin designs which have an almost cylindrical appearance. Right now I'm playing with 9-10 grains of Trail Boss in my 1903, and they show promise. This powder doesn't seem to be as position sensitive as say, Unique...although some very fine loads can be made up with that as well. On top of that the recoil is so mild it makes an all day session a lot of fun....and no gas check cost!

[Bret4207]

Runout. Check and see if there's any runout when the boolit is seated.

[Larry Gibson]

damron g

What powder are you using and what is your velocity expectation?

Larry Gibson

[atr]

I find spitzer type boolits in both 30-06 and .308 Win difficult to work up accurate loads for....I do get the best results when I just "kiss" the lands with my seating depth...have you checked your free-bore?
And dualsport has a point...you may have "hit the wall".....I know I did with my spitzer loads...1.5"MOA was the best I could achieve.

[longbow]

damron g:

This what I like about this place ~ I learn something new almost every visit!

Sounds like you are way above my paygrade too (nicely put dualsport), I took a look and dug up some info you may or may not have on that boolit (scroll about half way down in the article):

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-0_MoldselectionDesign.htm

I do have to ask though have you checked boolit/barrel fit and alloy hardness?

This is a fairly small diameter boolit tapering from 0.301" to 0.305" at 2nd to last band. If your bore is worn or oversize you may need a slightly larger boolit. With a base band at 0.315" it should seal but if the bore is oversize the boolit may tip a bit when pushed hard. Also, if your alloy is a little soft you might be getting some uneven body obturation so filling out the grooves unevenly.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Longbow

[26Charlie]

Had that mould long ago, but a single-shot fanatic wanted it so I traded it to him. my results weren't very good either. I got a .25 cal mould that shoots very well, so I got the better of the deal.

My suggestion is to shoot some groups with a snowbank backstop behind the target, then in the spring you will see if the bullets get cocked in the rifling or if you get gas cutting of the baseband or some other defect. I did this with some light loads in .32 Remington with a PB bullet, and indeed there was gas cutting of the baseband. Shot them in Jan and found out in April.

[damron g]

Although I know who Harry Pope was I've never had the privledge of owning one of his mold designs.

I've never had much luck with cast spitzer boolits. Although they "look" like the "real thing", they have a tendency to be less accurate than one of the Loverin designs which have an almost cylindrical appearance. Right now I'm playing with 9-10 grains of Trail Boss in my 1903, and they show promise. This powder doesn't seem to be as position sensitive as say, Unique...although some very fine loads can be made up with that as well. On top of that the recoil is so mild it makes an all day session a lot of fun....and no gas check cost!


I have had good luck with a few spitzer designs.The ideal 311365,311375,and some vesions of the 308329.The ones i have had shoot have groove diameters run from the top band gently blending onto the nose to carry out a bit before reaching .300 or so.The Modern Bond 190 plainbase i have is like this.I shot it today with 7.9 of Unique @1275 and it shot 1.0,1.2 and1.75(all 5 @ 100yds) The 1.75"last group had the vertical i mention having battles with.I am getting to believe this vertical is ,a bore conditin issue being lube or tempature,but who knows??
I have shot Trailboss in fixed ammo plainbase laods,and use 11-13 to get 150- 175 g bulets out at 1200 fps.My Unique loads have SD's of 8-15 with no fillers or wads.I ge the same uniformity with Trailboss,and it does have the advantage of not letting you double charge,but Unique is Cheaper to use.

Thanks for the input

George

[damron g]

damron g:

This what I like about this place ~ I learn something new almost every visit!

Sounds like you are way above my paygrade too (nicely put dualsport), I took a look and dug up some info you may or may not have on that boolit (scroll about half way down in the article):

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-0_MoldselectionDesign.htm

I do have to ask though have you checked boolit/barrel fit and alloy hardness?

This is a fairly small diameter boolit tapering from 0.301" to 0.305" at 2nd to last band. If your bore is worn or oversize you may need a slightly larger boolit. With a base band at 0.315" it should seal but if the bore is oversize the boolit may tip a bit when pushed hard. Also, if your alloy is a little soft you might be getting some uneven body obturation so filling out the grooves unevenly.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Longbow

Its a basband type like you mention,mine is .301 until the next to last band.I have had two of them.The one that did not have the rear band reverse tapered from .315 to .311(as Pope designed it) or so was not as accurate.If i shoot it as cast it doesnt do as well as sizing the rear band to .311.If you shoot it at .315 in my rifle you get alot of lead blowback on the neck from "shearing" while entering the throat.My barrel is a like new HS mfg replacemnt for the P-17's and fairly tightly throated.I have also had my best luck with bullet of WW/Stereo mix of 75-25.Soft bullets didnt do as well.The funny thing is how it can sometimes shoot small groups with eggshaped holes!!

George

[Larry Gibson]

damron g

My experience with several PB bullets in the '06 is ignition must be consistent or vertical stringing will evidence itself. Sound like your problem? At the velocities you mention and the bullet weights you mention I never got consistent results until I did the following.

Used well fire formed cases and drilled the flashole out with a #28 drill. This aleviates shoulder setback and allows the primer flash to get to the powder like right now giving uniform ignition.

The other important thing I did was to give up on Unique and other such loads if expected velocity was less that 1400 fps. Unique and the others just do not ignite consistently and vertical stringing results. I use Bullseye. Yes it is a very fast burning powder and stories and myths abound about "detination" etc. Well, it doesn't happen as all the horror stories are myth. Bullseye is a very quick to ignite and gives very consistent ignition at the velocities you are using. Granted if I want to got to 1400 and + fps second I switch to Unique or Red Dot. At the pressures generated at 1400 fps + with 170 - 200 gr bullets with those two powders ignition is consistent. However under that and they are not. Ergo the use of Bullseye. I suggest you start at 5.5 or 6 gr and work up from there until 1200 fps is achieved. The accuracy may surprise you.

Larry Gibson

[damron g]

damron g

My experience with several PB bullets in the '06 is ignition must be consistent or vertical stringing will evidence itself. Sound like your problem? At the velocities you mention and the bullet weights you mention I never got consistent results until I did the following.

Used well fire formed cases and drilled the flashole out with a #28 drill. This aleviates shoulder setback and allows the primer flash to get to the powder like right now giving uniform ignition.

The other important thing I did was to give up on Unique and other such loads if expected velocity was less that 1400 fps. Unique and the others just do not ignite consistently and vertical stringing results. I use Bullseye. Yes it is a very fast burning powder and stories and myths abound about "detination" etc. Well, it doesn't happen as all the horror stories are myth. Bullseye is a very quick to ignite and gives very consistent ignition at the velocities you are using. Granted if I want to got to 1400 and + fps second I switch to Unique or Red Dot. At the pressures generated at 1400 fps + with 170 - 200 gr bullets with those two powders ignition is consistent. However under that and they are not. Ergo the use of Bullseye. I suggest you start at 5.5 or 6 gr and work up from there until 1200 fps is achieved. The accuracy may surprise you.

Larry Gibson

I used Bullseye in the beginning and Unique was as uniform and a bit more accurate.Bullsyeye at 5.5 to 6 barely breaks 1000 fps in most rifles.The vertical isnt from velocity( at least i dont think so) as i chronograph every shot fired and sometimes the shot that falls low is within 2 fps of the one in the group and a shot 15-20 fps high or low may land in the group. Thats why its so confusing!!I also like to get 1200 fps i also find it works the best.I have used the same one case with these load over 700 times with an occasional necksizing when the slip fit get looser than i like so i havea well fit case. I fired over 4000 308403's this summer and fall and still cant give up as it will give you .75 or under MOA at times and even hold up at the 200 yard matches.
We all are on the same page as what to try,maybe this PB stuff is just "that way" and there are no magic tricks.
What kind of accuracy do you all expect for your plainbased loads?

George

[damron g]

I'd like to help you George but that's already above my pay grade! My take is you may have hit the wall where human and mechanical limitations will not allow any more improvement. The tipping may be a velocity issue, you're right. Any thoughts on using the 311284 without a GC? I just got a real nice double cavity from a guy in Washington.

I had Erik Ohlen make me 311284 PB with adjustable nose length for a 7.62 x 54.it did pretty well,but the nose was too large for my 30-06 barrels.I may have hit the wall,but somtimes those small teaser groups are addicting.

George

[Larry Gibson]

George

I know the velocity of the starting loads but did you work up to 1200 fps or so with Bullseye?

Larry Gibson

[damron g]

George

I know the velocity of the starting loads but did you work up to 1200 fps or so with Bullseye?

Larry Gibson

yes,i did and i also used 700X,Clays and WST and of the fast ones BE was the best.With BE i get a very slight lube "goo" in the throat that i dont get with Unique.I even shot without lube and if no more than 20-25 shots are fired accuracy was equal to lubed bullets.

'My experience with several PB bullets "

What bullets have worked the best for you?

George

[35 Whelen]

George, I don't shoot this exact bullet in the '06, but I've been shooting High Power since February with a K-31 and a NEI PB bullet weighing about 154 grs. It had problems with flyers, but I was changing so many things at once attempting to raise my scores, that it's difficult to say what cured the problem.
My initial load was 8.0 grs. of Red Dot but I'd have 2 or 3 unexplained flyers in each 10-shot string. I overheard some of the competitors discussing the effects of the trans-to-subsonic transition on the stability of a bullet. Given the velocity of the bullet in the original load, I found it was making this transition prior to reaching the 100 yd. target. So, I reduced my load to 6.7 grs. of Bullseye and have been shooting it ever since. I still occassionally have flyers, but I'm certain they're shooter induced as my prone rapid groups are almost always significantly smaller than my prone slow.
I still at times get high flyers when firing the first shot from a cold, clean barrel, but the frequency of this seemed to be reduced when I relieved the wood from the handguard that was touching the barrel.
Hope some of this helps.
35W

[Larry Gibson]

damron g

"What bullets have worked the best for you?"


The PB'd bullets i used were a couple designs from the old Liberty bullet company out of Oregon. I'd buy them unsized and unlubed. They weighed 170 and 190 gr. I'd sized them .311 and lube them with Javelina. I shot them right at 1150 fps loaded over Bullseye in cases as previously described and got very good accuracy at 100 and 200 yards out of a couple M1903s. I also have shot quite a few of the RCBS 150 gr 30-150-CM similarly sized, lubed and loaded. They also shot very well to 200 yards. I did NS the necks with a Redding Bushing die so there is .002 tension on the bullets.

Larry Gibson

[damron g]

damron g

"What bullets have worked the best for you?"


The PB'd bullets i used were a couple designs from the old Liberty bullet company out of Oregon. I'd buy them unsized and unlubed. They weighed 170 and 190 gr. I'd sized them .311 and lube them with Javelina. I shot them right at 1150 fps loaded over Bullseye in cases as previously described and got very good accuracy at 100 and 200 yards out of a couple M1903s. I also have shot quite a few of the RCBS 150 gr 30-150-CM similarly sized, lubed and loaded. They also shot very well to 200 yards. I did NS the necks with a Redding Bushing die so there is .002 tension on the bullets.

Larry Gibson

I used to run into Liberty at the Portland shows quite a bit,hadnt thought of them in awhile.I bought a 308241 single off him about 15 years ago,still one of my favorites.

You didnt mention group size.For me i figure 5 shots into 1.25 MOA and 10 into 1.5(at 100)good plainbase loads in Springfields or Enfields with good target sights or 6X scopes good enough.Have shot many smaller groups,but cant average those numbers long term.I can occasionally go up to 1350 and keep accuracy,but havent found it an advantage as i think the 1175 loads buck the wind pretty well up to 200.I have had my best luck recently in an unsized case just finger seated and let the bolt push it into the throat.You just have to use big bullets and make sure the neck tenision is decent.When you feel the finger seated bullet slip in too easily a neck sizing is needed.I have also used a case made into an adjustable breech seater and pushed soft "base band" type bullets into the throat.Accuracy was no better,and it was too much work at the bench.
Thanks for your input.

George

[Larry Gibson]

George

I was using the issue '03 peep sight on the slide, my eyes were much better back then. I was able to keep my reduced 600 yards scores in the very high 90s and ran numerous 100s. That's prone with the sling and no other support. The 10 ring on the 100/600 reduced target makes for a 2 moa group. I lived in Portland for a while and was a member of Douglas Ridge and shot HP there. I used the '03 with the reduced loads in the off season for practice. I was really sad to see Liberty's owners retire as they were very nice people and gave very good service. I bought quite a few cast bullets from them of various sort.

Larry Gibson

[brian]

Lyman 311410 size 0.311". vary seating depth as required. try 10 gr. of fast burning powder, 13 gr. of Unique though Blue Dot or about 16 gr. of 2400 or SR4759

Brian

[damron g]

George

I was using the issue '03 peep sight on the slide, my eyes were much better back then. I was able to keep my reduced 600 yards scores in the very high 90s and ran numerous 100s. That's prone with the sling and no other support. The 10 ring on the 100/600 reduced target makes for a 2 moa group. I lived in Portland for a while and was a member of Douglas Ridge and shot HP there. I used the '03 with the reduced loads in the off season for practice. I was really sad to see Liberty's owners retire as they were very nice people and gave very good service. I bought quite a few cast bullets from them of various sort.

Larry Gibson

I shot at Douglas once,but they no longer hold CBA matches there.Your accuracy is about like i have then.Its just a teaser when you get a few 10 shot groups into an inch or so a and think you havce it whipped and the next groups are 1.5" wide and 3" tall!!
I cant remember the couples(Liberty) names,but they were good people.They used to also hand out at NEI when Melander was alive and it was good time visits.

George Damron

[damron g]

Lyman 311410 size 0.311". vary seating depth as required. try 10 gr. of fast burning powder, 13 gr. of Unique though Blue Dot or about 16 gr. of 2400 or SR4759

Brian

I never used that much 2400 in PB loads,but 11g works good.I shot my 311410 HP last weekend with 8.5 of Unique(1300 fps ) and it shot not any worse or much better than 2 MOA.I would imagine 16.0 to push 1550.I'll try bumping my 311410 load up and see what happens.With 8.5 of Unique and a loose seated 190g bullet i get 1175.I would imagine 13.0 to be really moving for a barebottom bullet,but its worth a try.My friend shoots a case full of 4831 in a 30-30 bolt rifle with a 175 PB bullet.Velocity is a tad over 1500 and it shoots 2MOA or so,but the chamber needs to be scrubbed often to remove unburnt powder.He still has some of the $1 a pound 4831 from the 60's so he doesnt mind burning it up!!

George