1895 Winchester pans out

[Trailblazer]

I bought an 1895 Winchester in 30US a couple months ago. It was made in 1899 according to Madis. Most of the blue is gone but it is generally a solid rifle. The bore is frosty and dark in the grooves. It did not look to have been fired much recently if at all. I loaded some old Remington RN 180's for its first trip to the range. It fired and functioned fine but it grouped those 180's into about 6" at 50 yards. Not promising!

The rifle had a cracked forend and was very dirty inside so I completely disassembled it and glued the forend and gave it a thorough cleaning. The cleaning turned into a major project as there was hardened dirt and congealed oil packed in every nook and cranny. I also took a critical look at the crown. The copper fouling ended inside the muzzle and there was pitting at the muzzle. One land was rusted away completely at the muzzle. Since I had the rifle apart anyway I decided to counterbore it, so I pulled the barrel and stuck it in the lathe, indicated it in and proceeded. I ended up only going about .100" inside and opening the bore to .320" to clean up the pits and get back to solid rifling. I then faced the muzzle and cleaned up the bevel on the edge of the bore.

The sights were not original and it had been drilled and tapped for a tang sight. It has a folding Marbles rear sight and had a very tall bead front sight. I don't shoot my best with bead sights so I replaced the front bead with a fat square post. I loaded the same load with the 180 Remington RN's and took it to the range. What a difference! I ended up with what looks like three shots at 100 yards in a little over an inch. I wasn't sure because it looks like two went in the same hole but the hole is elongated ever so slightly. The other option is that round missed the paper completely.

I made it back to the range Thursday with more jacketed loads and some cast loads. I also mounted a Pedersoli Soule type tang sight that I bought in Cabela's bargain cave for $75. The jacketed loads were with 180 Sierra spitzers which the rifle doesn't like. My cast loads were the RCBS 180 FN cast from range scrap and loaded with 18 grains of 2400. The rifle with the tang sight.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Resized_1895.jpg

The results speak for themselves. 50 yard target first.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/RCBS_180_50_yd.jpg

That target looked encouraging so I went to 100 yards.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/RCBS_Sierra_180_100_yds.jpg
The upper five shot group is the 180 Sierra and the lower five shot group is the cast load. These were shot after shooting jacketed bullets. There is jacket fouling in the bore. But, no load development! The first load I pulled out of my hat worked! I have scoped bolt guns that don't shoot this good. Now I need to get the Lyman 311284 mold and work up some long range loads. Love that tang sight too.

[jhrosier]

Trailblazer,

Nice job bringing and old-timer back to life.
I'm always saddened to see an old gun sold into a collection as an investment and locked in a gun safe, never to be fired again.
It is the difference between preserving history and experiencing it.

I'm going to have to try that load in my 1895 Browning. Looks like a winner!

Jack

[PatMarlin]

Awesome ..!

I want to pick up my 1895 so bad I can smell it ..:mrgreen:

[Trailblazer]

I have to admit I pondered a bit before I counterbored it. Collector value and all that. I finally decided that it wasn't worth anything to me if it didn't shoot so I did it. Who woulda thunk it would shoot this good? Not me. I am amazed! It makes me think I should clean up the muzzle on my 1873 44WCF. It shoots good but the muzzle is dented and battered. Maybe if I recrowned it, it would shoot better yet.

I am sure you will enjoy it Pat. I sure enjoy shooting the old timers.

[BoolitBill]

Good job Trailblazer! Think of it this way: the original owner bought the gun to shoot, not to collect so why shouldn't you use it the way he did.

[Multigunner]

I'd certainly never pay extra for a rifle with a banged up muzzle that wouldn't shoot over the same rifle with a neatly done counterbore that did shoot, and very well at that. Probably even better once you've smoothed the bore surfaces a bit by shooting.
If it shoots good lapping isn't necessary other than to make it easier to clean.

A test run in the late 19th or early 20th century proved that lightly pitted bores gave higher velocities and often better accuracy with cast bullets than new slickly lapped bores. The near microscopic pits captured bullet lube in tiny globules that acted like liquid ball bearings under pressure. Sort of like the seasoning of a cast iron skillet.

[Trailblazer]

I bought the rifle as a shooter. I am not really a collector. This rifle has been repaired before too. The firing pin retractor was evidently hand made from some kind of measuring scale as it has numbers and graduations stamped into one side. It was obviously shaped with a grinder and files. It works fine. The trigger blade had been peened and I peened it some more to make it work right. It will probably need proper repair at some point. It isn't a pristine piece.

I am not a fan of the accelerated wear called lapping. I have found that shooting enough rounds does the job without putting gravel in the bore. I fire lapped a 6mm Remington that had a pitted bore and fouled horribly. It lost 200 fps with the same loads. It did shoot better afterwards and clean up better but it is still no tack driver. It will reliably put five inside three inches at 100. It works fine for my wife though. She happily kills deer with it and they don't know the difference.

Interesting that the pitted bores shot better. This rifle also shot the old Remington round noses very well. It doesn't care for spitzer bullets but that might be because they have to take a long jump when seated to fit the magazine. I would like to take the rifle deer hunting next year. I am in the lead free buzzard zone so I need to find a lead free bullet that will shoot in it. I found a lead free Lapua round nose but they are $2.00 a bullet. I guess $2.00 a deer isn't bad but the load work up could be expensive. The Barnes bullets need a long jump to the rifling so they may work fine too. They are only $.80 a bullet. It is going to shoot a lot of cast bullets before it gets fed any lead free stuff though.

[PatMarlin]

I get no joy out of collectors. I've had 3 valuable winchesters- to valuable to shoot so I sold them, and really don't regret it one bit.

Life is to short to just pull one out of a safe to look at or show a friend twice a year.

[Hickory]

I get no joy out of collectors.

A guy I know use to have a large collection
of old Rugers new in the box never shot.
And sold almost every one.

When I asked him why he sold them, he replied;

" It's like being married to the most beautiful woman
you ever seen and not being able to make love to her.
What a man really needs to be happy is something that is
fast and hot and you can take'm out and bang'm all you want":Fire:

[madcaster]

A guy I know use to have a large collection
of old Rugers new in the box never shot.
And sold almost every one.

When I asked him why he sold them, he replied;

" It's like being married to the most beautiful woman
you ever seen and not being able to make love to her.
What a man really needs to be happy is something that is
fast and hot and you can take'm out and bang'm all you want":Fire:

I like that analysis!:kidding:

[Pepe Ray]

WOW!!
Boy oh boy, this is the first thread I've seen that makes me feel comfortable.
Although I feel as Pat and others do, I won't sell. I'll drill and tap to install sights that help me enjoy shooting them.
I believe that I deserve the enjoyment of a fine old piece as much as ANY collector. I just grin and shoot. I may pass the tissues if I'm feeling benevolent.

Thanks men,
Pepe Ray

[madsenshooter]

I like the ideas expressed above! Collectors try to tell me I shouldn't shoot my 92/96 Krag. Baloney, let someone else hang it on their wall after I've shot the barrel out! Nice to see counterboring works too, I have one 96 Krag barreled action that some kind of mud dauber built a nest in the end of, now to find a reamer.