Well, bought an Enfield...help/info

[218bee]

Well, I've been thinking of playing with one of these buggers for a while and got this one at an auction for $150 so figured at that I couldn't get hurt too bad.
I guess its a Savage manufactured....but tell me more.
Someone "sporterized" it by cutting down stock and removing top hand guard.
Top of barrel in front of sight has...BNP w/crown 303 2'222" 18.5 TONS RER???
and then a crossed X with M (left of X),5(below X),and B(right of X)
Next to blade of front sight is stamped 045
FR on right side of buttstock
On top of receiver ring a BNP w/crown
s/n 74C2800 on bolt handle and lower receiver where stock attaches also says made in USA below receiver s/n
No4MkI* with a 5 or S in front of that
U S PROPERTY on top left of action
ladder sight marked Mk3
under triggerguard/floorplate stamped 5
Alum?? buttplate with trap
Replacement ?? mag as on side it says...SanteFe Magazine made in Japan
4-5 stamped on mag follower
Thats what I got for now...see pics below
Have not slugged bore yet
Would like to get complete stock and bring her back to true form if not too expensive where can I find one??
Must be a replacement magazine are originals hard to find?? where??
Any idea approx year of manufacture?
Savage right?
How about some favorite moulds, j bullets and recipes.
heres the pics sorry for quality but I aint too good at this puter stuff...thanks Gents............

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/nkorhn/enfield/100_0652Small.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/nkorhn/enfield/100_0653Small.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/nkorhn/enfield/100_0654Small.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/nkorhn/enfield/100_0655Small.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/nkorhn/enfield/100_0656Small.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/nkorhn/enfield/100_0659Small.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r123/nkorhn/enfield/100_0657Small.jpg

[462]

218bee,

Savage manufacture 1943.

[docone31]

Wow, great find.
If you want replacement stocks, parts etc. I have always gone to Numerich Arms,
http://www.e-gunparts.com/
They have a lot of original parts.
Including magazines.

[BruceB]

If you're interested, the rifle could easily be restored to its as-issued configuration.

All it needs is the front sight "wings", the two handguards and their bands and a new fore-end and nose-cap assembly.

If not, it's a really primo knockabout rifle just as-is. Oh, yeah...and the magazine.

docone and myself were typing at the same time....

[NVcurmudgeon]

Savage No. 4s have a reputation for being very good cast boolit shooters. AFAIK, Savage did not use the typical British five groove barrel, but four groove. I may have heard or read of two grooves as well, but I'm not sure. In my ignorance I passed up two Savages about 17 years ago and bought a Fazakerly No. 4 from the same store. No regrets, I lucked out with a .303" bore and .3138" groove which is very accurate with either CB or J.

[rvpilot76]

I have a couple of Savage two-groovers, and thoroughly enjoy them. Great find at a great price!

[Shiloh]

I hope I can find one at a good price someday.

My brother was given a sporterized '03 that I'd like to play with. It is scoped and I'd like to play around with different loads from the bench for accuracy purposes.

From what I have read here at Cast Boolits and Surplus Rifle, they are capable of quite good accuracy.

SHiloh

[218bee]

Thanks guys...I would like to bring her back to a more military configuration if it don't cost more than what I paid for the gun itself.
When the ladder sight is folded down, the "fixed" peep would be set for 100 yards I'm guessing or not?
I'm gonna see if I can slug bore later today and someone told me to look for marks on bolt head as they used different sizes to adjust headspace?? It took me quite some time to figure out how to get the dang bolt out of the action but I happened upon it...Thanks guys

[beemer]

The fixed peep is the battle sight, don't remember the range but probably set up somewhere around 300 yds. Shoot first but you will most likley need a taller one to do 100 yds.

Dave

[doubs43]

The "C" in the serial number stands for "Chicopee Falls, MA" and is a positive sign that it is a Savage-made Enfield. Savage made more #4 Enfields than any other manufacturer.

The earliest Savage Enfields had a 6 groove barrel. I once owned one. It also had the better milled ladder sight that was later replaced by the two aperture flip-up peep sights. Later they used two groove barrels in an effort to increase production. According to Skinnerton's book, tests by the British showed that the two groove barrels were as accurate as 4 & 6 groove barrels.

Your rear sight is one of the later stamped metal types that also increased the speed of production at reduced costs. There are a couple of models of the stamped sights.

The No4MkI* is the model and the * indicates that the bolt release actuator and spring of the earlier rifles has been replaced by a cut-out in the rail that allows the bolt head to be rotated and the bolt taken out. That was another cost-cutting measure to speed up production.

[higgins]

Look at the Springfield Sporters site at www.ssporters.com. You'll see that he stocks some Savage small parts so you may be able to replace some of the missing pieces with Savage parts. I've restored a couple of Enfields, and I would suggest not getting impatient and wait to find the proper parts, especially since you have what looks to be a very good rifle to shoot in the interim. If you look in the WTB section, you'll see that I'm looking for a specific forearm now to restore a Long Branch rifle. No luck yet but one will turn up some day. .045 is the height of the front sight blade; they came in various heights for zeroing at the armory. "FR" on the stock is Field Repair, a lower echelon restoration of damaged or worn rifles, which is probably where it picked up that Mk3 sight. Most Savages left the factory with a two-aperture flip peep sight. If you find FTR on the rifle somewhere that is one that went through Factory Thorough Repair at an arsenal where rifles went through complete rebuild, rebarreled, metal refinished, etc. Enfields are generally covered with stamps and cartouches, most on your rifle should be the block S or plain S denoting Savage manufacture. You never say never about what manufacturer's parts may be found on an Enfield, especially one that's been through some level of rebuild. One more thing-assume that any surplus .303 ammo you fire in it, regardless what the seller told you, is corrosive and clean accordingly. Yes, bolt heads of various lengths, numbered 0 through 4, were used to adjust bolt length for proper headspace.

[Hardcast416taylor]

For the time being all the parts you will to make a mil. look rifle are:

1) Front sight wings sight protector and mounting screw
2) Front and rear handguards
3) Front and rear stock bands with screws
4) Lower forend stock

The magazine can wait awhile as you have a magazine for the time being. The guys are right about the maker being Savage. I got my Savage #4 back in `61 from Spiegal, Inc. in Chicago thru the mail along with 100 rds. of ball ammo for $21.00 plus shipping. It has a 2 groove barrel and shoots both cast and "J" bullets of 150 gr. very accurately.Robert

[Multigunner]

Two Groove Savage bores are ammo sensitive. They shoot MkVII as well as other bores but often don't handle sporting ammo quite so well and usually boat tail bullets don't stabilize well at all and keyholing is fairly common with boat tails or undersize bullets.

With my taylored handloads I get consistent sub MOA out to 300 yards using the hornady .312 bullets.

PS
Check that shortened magazine for commercial markings, some of these have value to collectors and I'd bet you can trade it for the proper mag easily enough.

Also mags for the No.1 can be used in the No.4 though its usually a tight fit and the notch for the latch may need to be filed to fit. I use a No.1 mag with my rifle.
If my old No.4 mag were in better shape I'd trade with you for the shortened mag.

[longbow]

I have been playing with a couple of No. 5's and am starting to get good results. Both have oversize bores and seem to like a boolit of about 0.315"/0.316" with 0.305" nose. I have a Lyman 314299 that I lapped out from casting 0.312" boolits to 0.315" boolits and they seem to be a big improvement.

I am currently eagerly awaiting the new NOE 314299 clone that will throw 0.305"/0.316" boolits. It is a 4 cavity that will replace my Lyman.

If you are lucky you may find yours is closer to spec (seems to me I have read that Savages are tighter than many).

Here is some useful info:

http://www.303british.com/
http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/303brit/
http://www.public.asu.edu/~roblewis/SMLE/IIID2a11a4.html
http://www.milsurps.com/
http://www.reloadammo.com/303load.htm

I just neck size as the chambers of both N0. 5's are typical oversize and I found resising was an effort plus it is hard on brass.

You probably already know a bunch of this but maybe there is something that will be of use.

Longbow

PS: forgot a couple of links from Cast Boolits

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=49003
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

[Multigunner]

Yes, bolt heads of various lengths, numbered 0 through 4, were used to adjust bolt length for proper headspace.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually the boltheads are numbered from 0 ,1,2,3. A number 4 bolthead was made in limited numbers but seldom if ever used. If a bolt or receiver was setback enough to need a number 4 bolthead they figured it was time for an FTR with replacement bolt body at the least, or DP'ed as unserviceable.

[218bee]

Thank you thank you for all the info....I'm gobbling it up...still have not slugged it yet work and Christmas and all...just got on here real quick to check and thanks again
Oh and tell me more about bolt heads...Mine is a 0...so that is shortest??? does that mean chamber was smaller to start with?? and then if too much headspace you would go to a 1 or 2?? Still learning

[BruceB]

Headspace on rimmed cartridges is determined ONLY by the thickness of the rim itself...in the .303 British, I believe the nominal headspace is .074".

It's this fact that allowed the Brits to chamber the rifles in such a loose fashion.

Yes, your "0" bolt head is the shortest one made, but it means nothing to the size of the chamber itself.

[smlekid]

.074" is basically the no go size a bolt should not close on it
target shooters in Australia would set there rifles up with a .067" headspace or plus 3 as I have heard the old timers call it one of the secrets to getting accuracy out of the Lee Enfield is to go tight on headspace
I wouldn't get to worried about the number stamped on the bolt head here is a link with some interesting info regard the actually measured sizes of the No4 bolt heads http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=139998 as can be seen the No on the bolt head can really mean anything
FWIW the BNP is British Nitro Proof so the rifle was sold out of service in England at some stage the 2.222" is the case length 303 the calibre and the 18.5 is the pressure at which the rifle was proof tested 18.5 tons to the square inch
if you do a search for Ian Skennerten you should find a few of his books The Lee Enfield Rifle is the bible on 303's
as for getting it to shoot I would be interested in seeing what you can get it to do I'd suggest going with a flat base bullet in the 150-180gr region with a medium burning powder a lot of ADI AR2208 (Varget over there) is used here as well as AR2206H (H4895) some rifles seem to like a heavy load some prefer starting loads
Multigunner I've been around Lee's for a while (just checkout my user name!!) have never seen nor heard of a 4 bolthead would love to see a pic of one

[Multigunner]

.074" is basically the no go size a bolt should not close on it
target shooters in Australia would set there rifles up with a .067" headspace or plus 3 as I have heard the old timers call it one of the secrets to getting accuracy out of the Lee Enfield is to go tight on headspace
I wouldn't get to worried about the number stamped on the bolt head here is a link with some interesting info regard the actually measured sizes of the No4 bolt heads http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=139998 as can be seen the No on the bolt head can really mean anything
FWIW the BNP is British Nitro Proof so the rifle was sold out of service in England at some stage the 2.222" is the case length 303 the calibre and the 18.5 is the pressure at which the rifle was proof tested 18.5 tons to the square inch
if you do a search for Ian Skennerten you should find a few of his books The Lee Enfield Rifle is the bible on 303's
as for getting it to shoot I would be interested in seeing what you can get it to do I'd suggest going with a flat base bullet in the 150-180gr region with a medium burning powder a lot of ADI AR2208 (Varget over there) is used here as well as AR2206H (H4895) some rifles seem to like a heavy load some prefer starting loads
Multigunner I've been around Lee's for a while (just checkout my user name!!) have never seen nor heard of a 4 bolthead would love to see a pic of one

I doubt you'll ever see a No.4 bolthead, as I'd said they were seldom if ever used, possibly never for that matter, since they reckoned a gun that loose had something fundementally wrong with it.

Not sure but I think the rifles had to have a .068 headspace after proof or would be fitted with either a new bolt or bolthead and reproofed. .074 was the max allowable after years of shooting.
Minimum headspace of .064 and max of .068 are the figures given in older literature as the normal range for .303 rifles.

SMLE boltheads weren't numbered, they'd be segregated by size by armorers and the longest stamped with an S. The S size were set aside for special purposes.
Used SMLE boltheads would be kept in store and used when possible before new boltheads, to conserve on parts. A bolthead too short for one rifle might be a perfect fit for another, or for a rifle with replacement bolt body.
I just sent in for a unissued bolt body and bolthead, not sure if I'll need the bolt body. My Enfield Lock SMLE bolthead clocks in okay but its an earliy scalloped head and the threads seem too small for the numbered bolt of the rifle allowing side play.
If the new BH fits the old bolt body tightly I'll use the old bolt body and put the unissued bolt body aside.
The scalloped BH is also a loose fit on a good condition Lithgow bolt I have, and the Lithgow BH fits the Enfield SMLE body well, so I figure the threading of the Scalloped BH was either undersized to begin with or worn. Its boltface looks near new so I'm figuring the threads were smaller dia than later types when new.
Headspace is good as is and chamber much tighter and slicker than any I've seen, no annular rings so it should have good case life, bore is excellent.

My No.4 is a rebuilt junker with new replacement bolt body and No.3 bolthead.
Cases seem to last forever. Only ones I've lost have been due to cuts on the neck during feeding, can't figure out whats doing that as I've tried different mags and polished feed lips. Could be hitting a sharp edge at the extractor cut in the breech.

The No.3 BH is hard to find these days, I ordered three for myself and friends at 8 bucks apiece many years ago.



A friend has a No.5 which he fitted with a No.3 bolthead which gave near zero headspace with military cases. He uses the No.3 head when target shooting and working up loads, then puts a no.2 head on when hunting to insure easy chambering.
With the no.3 in place and custom loads he has managed sub MOA out to 600 yards using only the stock ladder sight. He's had that No.5 since he was twelve so he has certainly grown used to it.


PS
The 2.22 marking is a holdover from Black Powder cartridge days when cartridges that looked much alike could be ID'ed by case length.
It came in handy when the .303 Savage came along, to avoid confusion, and when the 7.7X54R was a propular target round for Enfields altered by setting the barrel back by two threads.

18.5 is the standard operating pressure the rifle is meant for in Long Tons, it a measure of Bolt Thrust not chamber pressure per se'.
The early LLE was proof marked at 16.5 but may be found reproofed to 18.5. Proof cartridges were at a much higher pressure than the marking indicates.

[218bee]

Well I got around to slugging the barrel tonight. It is a two groove rifling....good??...bad?? and groove dia. is between .315-.316 a little larger than I hoped but typical maybe?
So with the above new info are jacketed bullets out of the question?? If not, any recommendations. Now as for cast...I am not comfortable "reaming" out a mould so what should I do?? Any help will be appreciated and thanks again for all the info. I'm determined to get this old girl shooting.

[docone31]

That is where paper patching really makes them shine!
Sized to .308, then wrapped with two wraps of lined notebook paper, you will get .318.
sounds like a plan to me.
You will need to get the dies opened up. Send in a sample and the dies to Lee. Took two weeks to do it.
Works great now.

[higgins]

A Lyman 319247 is 165 gr. flat base for 32/40; it might work. Maybe if you posted a WTB ad someone would sell or give you some of those to try. With so many recently-produced undersize Lyman molds out there you might find someone with an undersized 323470. There are also several out of production 319xxx lyman molds. Watch the auctions and you might get one of them for a reasonable price if you're lucky.

[Brithunter]

Ok so you have a commercially converted No4 rifle which is collectable in it's own right.

Yes thats' right there are those who collect the Santa Fe conversions so my advice is to leave it as is and sell to one of them and buy an unmolsted No4 od a bubbad one. The Santa fe's don't come under the Bubba umbrella :)

[Multigunner]

Well I got around to slugging the barrel tonight. It is a two groove rifling....good??...bad?? and groove dia. is between .315-.316 a little larger than I hoped but typical maybe?
So with the above new info are jacketed bullets out of the question?? If not, any recommendations. Now as for cast...I am not comfortable "reaming" out a mould so what should I do?? Any help will be appreciated and thanks again for all the info. I'm determined to get this old girl shooting.

The .312 Hornady bullets were designed to bump up to fill out the grooves of oversized military bores.
Originally for the 7.7 MM Jap bores, and also found favor with 7.65 Argentine rifles, and 7.65 rifles that had been rechamered to .30/06.
When good reloadable ammo became more readily available .303 shooters found the bullets a good choice as well.

The Two Groove bores with broad lands squeeze the body of the bullet enough to extrude the laket and core into the grooves with a bit of bumping up as well depending on charge and initial pressures.
The MkVII had an initial shock due to the high Nitroglycerine content of the Cordite and hefty primers.
Accuracy using MkVII is about as good as with a four or five groove bore, nothing to brag about, but decent.

The British Two Groove bore has wider grooves, and can handle cast bullets pretty well from what I hear.
Some savage two groove owners report success with cast bullets while others don't seem to ever find a good load.

Only reason I haven't gotten into cast .303 before now is my Savage two groove, now I have a nice five groove No.1 with true .311 bore, an unusually tightbore for a wartime production rifle.
I suspect it may have been rebarreled, but can't tell from the markings.

I've seen shipments of what appeared to be government owned sporterized No.4 rifles. Where they came from I couldn't say but Forestery dept rifles from Turky were coming in about that time.
These were usually cutdown Lebels and other obsolete bolt actions, in varying states of beat up.

[dromia]

The trick with cast in two groove barrels is to use a Loverin or similar multi lube groove design to allow for alloy displacement.

Two groove barrels are accurate and I successfully shot service rifle "A" and "B" competitions for many years with a Longbranch No4 MK1* two groover with a mismatched bolt.

I have a couple of "new" (unfired) two groove barrels on my rack waiting for the right rifles to come along and I have high hopes for their accuracy.

I have an early Savage No4 MK1 in my collection and it has a 6 groove barrel, never got this to shoot consistently yet but that is more a function of stock fit than the barrel.

Another post March project. :mrgreen:

[Gerry N.]

Something else you might look for is Long Branch arsenal parts. Savage and LB swapped parts as needed to keep production up. My '43 LB #4 has a Savage magazine and barrel bands. I got it unfired and filled with cosmoline for $50 about 15 years ago. It also has an unmarked buttstock which I've been led to believe is "Normal" length. It also has a 2-groove barrel and does remarkably well with boolits cast in my old Ideal fixed block mold #311299 I got for free in a box of junque being tossed after a neighbor's garage sale several years ago.

Gerry N.