Need advice on .357 cast boolit load

[Kermit2]

I'm trying to work up some .357 Magnum handloads for long range (100 yds.) shooting at targets. I'm shooting a 4 inch Ruger GP100 revolver. I'm trying to work up the load using 158 cast LSWC bullets manufactured by Bushwhacker Bullet Co. in MO. I'm sorry but I don't know that the Brinnel hardness rating is for these bullets. They are bevel base bullets. I've used these bullets for light and medium .38 special loads for practice and qualification with acceptable results.

These bullets have given fair results so far in the .357 loads, but I feel accuracy isn't what it should be when I compare it to my .41 magnum. I've tried several powders. I've tried up to 14.3 grains of 2400, and up to 5.0 grains of Titegroup. Today I tried 5.4, 5.8, and 6.2 grains of Universal with only fair results. I've only been shooting at 25 yards. A buddy of mine suggests that the accuracy isn't good due to the bullets having a bevel base. My buddy says if I use cast .357 bullets with a flat base the accuracy will improve. In my .41 magnum all I've ever used are flat based cast bullets or JHP bullets and accuracy is great.

Any thoughts or advice on this problem? All opinions and advice will be appreciated. Thank you.

[Shiloh]

I prefer a slower powder for the .357 I see you are using 2400, a good choice.
I sounds like you may need to try different boolits. IMHO, flat base boolits are a better choice.

I don't know why the bevel base is there. It is said that the bevel base is for ease of loading, but the case is belled anyway. I have no problems at all seating non-bevel base boolits.

Shiloh

[JSH]

With a 4" barrell and irons it will be a real chore to shoot for groups at 100.
A good friend and member here loaned me his GP100 a couple of years ago. I have to be honest and say I am not much on Ruger revolvers. He has several hours in tuning it. I REALLY hated to return it. Some optics of some kind would be real helpful and take out some of the issues with the short sight radius, even a red dot would work.
I have shot maybe 500 at the most bevel based all store bought. They just never did perform to what I had in mind. Bevel based are made for ease of reloading and not anything else imho.
The above mentioned GP liked about anything it was fed. It did have a mild issue with some build up in the forcing cone. It would lead a bit and never get any worse and didn't seem to affect how it shot AFTER it fouled there. I myself would go to a 170-180 to shoot at 100. The 158ish and lghter shot good to about 50 for me. I will also say it seemed to really like a lot of speed/pressure. A BE type load was mediocure in accuracy and had to bump those past a true BE load.
One last thing those are some tuff revovlers. I have shot some of his hunting loads and they are not for the timed.
jeff

[Bret4207]

IMO you're going about this backwards. What you need to do is determine if that boolit fits and shoot to whatever limitations it exhibits. I myself am not a fan of either commercially cast (tend to run small) or bevel based boolits but either way, you are stuck with what the boolit is capable of.

Start slow and work up watching for tendencies and patterns of performance. Better to have a medium load that shoots good than a flatter, hotter load that shoots patterns instead of nice, round groups.

[Harry O]

I have a GP100 that I was never able to get to shoot well with full-power loads using plain-base bullets (with or without a bevel), even those that were Bhn 18-20. I have gone to a gas-check bullet (358156) and have had no problem. No leading and good accuracy. I have taken it up to 15.0gr of 2400, but generally use 13.5gr.

[Rex]

My opinion mirrors Harry O's. Heavy .357 loads start with a gas check! I also agree with his powder recomendation.
Rex

[atr]

I use a 158gr semi wadcutter with gas check and 2400 powder...I tend to cast on the hard side...Im shooting a S&W 6-1/2 barrel and get decent accuracy at 100 yds. and no leading
Im wondering if your 4 inch barrel might be a handicap for you at 100 yard shooting. Also, if you want to bump up the velocity for 100 shooting I would suggest you use a boolit with gas checks.

[gasboffer]

Another vote for the 158 Gas Check. 296, h110, 4227, etc.
Clyde

[JRR]

Assuming your bullets are NOT the black plastic coated ones, the bevel is big enough to seat and swage a gas check onto. Use a Lee push through sizer in .358, put a Hornady gas check onto the base with your fingers and then push the bullet into the sizer. The bevel will be re-shaped into a square ridge with the check firmly affixed. I have done this many times in 357 mag and smaller. The wider the projectile the smaller the percentage of bevel.

Lube the bullets in LLA after the checks are on because the lube in many commercial offerings is not adequate.

Use a slow powder like 2400, N110 or AA9 for best results. H110 and W296 may also be used but with a narrower loading spectrum.

Finally, instead of trying to get groups at 100 yards with a four in. barrel, set up some clay birds on a berm so you can see the dust of the hits and walk the shots to the target.

Jeff

[Shiloh]

My limited experience with 296 in the .357 gave high extreme spreads. This was with 158 brain non gas checked boolits in a Security Six. Works good in .30 carbine 110 gr. FMJ.

Better results with 2400.

Shiloh

[Wally]

My limited experience with 296 in the .357 gave high extreme spreads. This was with 158 brain non gas checked boolits in a Security Six. Works good in .30 carbine 110 gr. FMJ.

Better results with 2400.

Shiloh


same here---Blue Dot also works well and you use less, however it is not as consistent as is 2400 in a powder measure.

[RDub]

Hi
I'd like to chime in on this one..
I have a 4" 686 and recently started shooting a load I like alot cause its so freakin accurate.

Lyman mold 358156 w/gc using 100% Lino-type. Weighs 149grs when finished.
12.2 grs 2400 (thats what the LittleDandy rotor throws)
CCI 550 mag primer.

Last time I chrono'd this it averaged 1114 fps at 10'

My experience has been with all the revolver magnums, .357, .41, .44.. 2400 has consistently provided the BEST accuracy with CAST bullets. I've tried other powders but 2400 just keeps performing.

Have fun!

[9.3X62AL]

Another vote for Alliant 2400 over H-110/WW-296 in cast boolit magnum revolver applications. Those spherical fuels are GREAT in jacketed-bullet loads, but I've had better luck and performance with 2400.

I use a load in the ballpark area of RDub's recommendation in my S&W 686 x 4". 13.5 grains of 2400, WSP primers, Lyman #358156 @ .358" into W-W nickel-plate cases. This duplicates my carry load closely in velocity/recoil/point-of-impact at 25 and 50 yards. MV runs about 1225-1240 FPS.

[fecmech]

I have nothing against 2400 but my Gp 100 6" does slightly better with WC820 (which mirrors the 296 that I have) than 2400. Both are very accurate, if you have 296 or H110 give it a try.

[jdgabbard]

Another vote for the 158 Gas Check. 296, h110, 4227, etc.
Clyde

+1 I agree with this statement.

Let me say this. I primarily load for the .38spl and the 357 mag. That said, I've worked up quite a few loads. And I have found combinations that work and those that don't work as well.

Now for my practice load, nothing in my guns beat a 158g Lee TL-SWC over 4.2g of unique. At 25 yards with a iron sighted Model 65 Smith I can pull off .7" groups. Thats pretty impressive.

357 loads are another ball game. You can ask any experienced member here, and they'll tell you that just about any 150-160g SWC over 11-14g of 2400 is like a lazer beam. It shoots to point of aim and it has a super flat trajectory.

In my honest opinion, if you're trying to shoot cast, and you're combo of 2400 isn't working out its you're boolit or maybe the quality of your loaded ammo. And by that I mean consistent crimps, seating depths, etc...

Ruling out the second, as you seen to have been shooting for a while and are probably just getting into lead boolits, I would guess that its you're boolit selection. Honestly I've never gotten super accurate loads from commercial boolits. Like mentioned, their usually super hard and undersized. Which makes expansion from pressure unlikely. I suggest you get some home-cast boolits and work those up. You'll probably have a lot better results.

And as a side note, let me say that many people look for a shortcut when it comes to many different hobbies. Either they don't want to invest the money for the equipment, or don't want to hassle with doing it themselfs. I don't know if you're already set up to cast. But I will tell you it is an investment well worth the money. And I'll also tell you that, even tho we do find shortcuts occasionally, this hobby has already found its "tried and true" methods. We won't steer you wrong. There is probably more wealth of knowledge on this board then any other board on the net. For goodness sake we have gun writers here....

[SteveL]

Hello everyone. I am a new member, have just started casting, and have found this site very informative and this thread very interesting regarding to loading for my .357.

I am finding that working up a max load for my 4" S&W mod 65 a bit challenging. I have cast Lee 158gr Tumble Lube bullets with WW and water quenched that mic out at .358. They shoot very accurately with h110, but way too slow and dirty. Good crimp was applied.

I got 1200av and 26sd with 14.5g of h110 (which I pulled off the handloads.com site and found out was way too small a charge). This left a lot of unburned powder.

The next load I worked up to was the max load published from Lyman's manual - 16.5 of h110. This gave 1220av with only 4sd. Very consistent but still way too slow and still unburned powder in the barrel.

I then shot some Remington factory 140gr rounds. They were quite a bit louder, had more kick, and 200fps faster.

Working up loads over max published has always been a bit uncomfortable for me, but it definitely seems called for in this case. Would I be safe to work up the load from 16.5g a tenth at a time until I see pressure signs or acceptable velocity and no unburned powder?

Thanks,
Steve

[jdgabbard]

Data for the 358311 boolit in the Lyman manual states starting load of 13g, and a max of 18.3g for h110... This should be pretty close to the Lee boolit, and I wouldn't have a problem working up to it at all if I saw no pressure signs... I'd say give it a shot. H110 is one of those powders that performs best at peak pressures... If it doesn't work out, you could always try 2400...

[462]

Lee's 358-158 RF, cast of 50/50 clip-on/stick-on, air-cooled, sized to .358", along with 13.0 grains of Alliant 2400 works perfectly out of my 6" Blackhawk. The boolit is bevel based, however there isn't a trace of leading.

[Piedmont]

SteveL, I'd be leary of exceeding where you are. The K frame is about the weakest .357. Should you choose to proceed you will probably do better with a bullet design that is not tumble lube. Those tend to run out of lube and then up your pressures and fouling.

I've exceeded your loads with WW296 by a fair margin but it was in much stronger revolvers and using loads that were published a while back that I now wonder about their pressures. Maximum loads and K frames don't go together in my book.

[SteveL]

Piedmont - thanks for the advise.

Based on your tip I did some research on the web about K frames. From what I could tell most of the problems are due to the 125gr (and other short bullets) driven at high velocity or allowed bad leading in the barrel, and many have shot a lot of 158gr with no problems. But because the frame is the weakest of the full-sized .357's I plan on trying out 2400 at less than top-end, and bought some today.

The only problem s what to do with all the h110 I've got. Guess I'll just have to shoot the .44 more. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/fire.gif It's a tough job, but someone's go to do it.

[lwknight]

StevL, Those max loads that are supposed to go 1500 fps are taken from longer barrels. There is a limit to the pressure that the gun will tolerate. Those slow powders have enough btu's to maintain full pressure the full length of 6 or 8" barrels. Even up to 1800 fps in a rifle.

The only way to make a 4" barrel get up to higher speed would be increasing the pressure and thats not a good idea.

I have a friend that tried to use H110 with 125 grain boolits and it would just not work out. It seems that you need a heavier boolit to befifit fully from 110/296. He did however get better results in the 125 grain with 2400.

Its been years since I used any 125s but IIRC about 8 grains of Unique got the job done pretty well. And Unique is not ideal at all for 158 grainers.

I could not get my 6" GP-100 over 1400 fps with 158 grain boolits ot "J"s either. I even maxxed the capacity at 100% with 17.5 grains 296 and all I got was a very impressive earth shaking BOOOM!! and a hilarious muzzle flash.

Get you a 454 Casull to use up all that H110 that you have. :lol:

[rummy64]

I use 296 in my model 19 with 158 g xtp's. I think the load was 15.5g. That's about middle of the road for the Hornaday manual I have. It shows on the light side for the Lyman manuel.
In either case, I haven't shot it past 25 yards with this load. But the group was small enough to make me stop looking for a more accurate load. The 296 works extremely well in the super redhawk .44 too. I know cast boolits can react differently, But being that this is a middle of the road charge, it might work well.

[MtGun44]

Lee 158 RF bb or Lyman 358429 with 16.3 of H110 is very flat and accurate in my Sec Six or
586. No need for GCs in pistols, if you take the time to fit the boolit to the throats and if the
revolver throats and bbl are appropriately dimensioned. Read the sticky on revolver accuracy
for some good info.

Bill

[GP100man]

The problem with K frames is the thin frame under the barrel at the forcing cone.

[crabo]

Lee 158 RF bb or Lyman 358429 with 16.3 of H110 is very flat and accurate in my Sec Six or
586. No need for GCs in pistols, if you take the time to fit the boolit to the throats and if the
revolver throats and bbl are appropriately dimensioned. Read the sticky on revolver accuracy
for some good info.

Bill

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=21598

[SteveL]

What about using Longshot? Hodgdon's site doesn't list a loading for lead 158gr, only a J, but the velocity is way up there and the pressure WAY down (25,800 CUP). Do you think using Longshot would be a safe and kind (on the gun) way to work up a top-end load?

[SteveL]

In the previous post I neglected to mention that this is in a 4" K-frame.

[rummy64]

SteveL,
The Hodgden web site doesn't list Longshot with cast boolets. It does list it with a 158 xtp.
7.3-8.4g, 1,258-1394 fps., but the pressure seems kinda high. 31,700cup-43,200 cup. I checked Lyman,Lee and an old Hornaday manual and was not able to find Longshot for 158g period.
Have you ever tried True Blue?

[243winxb]

For 100 yds, each and every bullet should be weighted before being lubed. Air/gas bubbles form inside some of the bullet, out of sight. These bullets with bubbles will not group well @ 100 yds. If 13.0 gr of Alliant 2400 does not shoot, its not the powder. Test using standard and mag. primers to see what one is the most accurate. The sight radius (Iron Sights) on your gun is very short for long range work. A scope would help.

[SteveL]

My prior post had an error - I meant Lil'gun, not Longshot!

Here are the numbers from Hodgdon's site:

158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Lil'Gun .357" 1.580" 16.0 1504 24,100 CUP 18.0 1577 25,800 CUP

Anyone have experience with Lil-gun?

Thanks, Steve