How many hunt Deer with hollow points?

[Changeling]

I was just wondering how many here hunt deer with hollow points in there large caliber pistols and what experiences have you had. Do you find them very effective or do you have reasons for concern?

I mean HP's using a alloy with a reasonable BRN level to cause the HP's to work at the velocities and distances you shoot. Just throw in any thing you would like to say.

[2 dogs]

I have had a couple of my molds hollowpointed. I will be using hollowpoints on deer in the future myself.....course, our S. Texas deer are not as big as some of them big ole corn fed suckers you see up north....

[badgeredd]

I was just wondering how many here hunt deer with hollow points in there large caliber pistols and what experiences have you had. Do you find them very effective or do you have reasons for concern?

I mean HP's using a alloy with a reasonable BRN level to cause the HP's to work at the velocities and distances you shoot. Just throw in any thing you would like to say.

In MY opinion, a boolit of good alloy (50/50 pure/WW) doesn't need to be HP for deer. 35 caliber or larger will make a decent wound channel and usually drive through a deer. A friends experience with a HP boolit was that he felt there was way too much extraneous damage caused by a HP, meaning a lot of unnecessary blood shot meat. Since you've posted this in the handgun section, I am assuming your thinking about slower moving boolits compared to rifles. I still believe one will get better penetration and less unnecessary damage without a HP. Mind you that is my opinion based on years of hunting deer with jacketed as well as cast boolits from handguns.

Edd

[Changeling]

In MY opinion, a boolit of good alloy (50/50 pure/WW) doesn't need to be HP for deer. 35 caliber or larger will make a decent wound channel and usually drive through a deer. A friends experience with a HP boolit was that he felt there was way too much extraneous damage caused by a HP, meaning a lot of unnecessary blood shot meat. Since you've posted this in the handgun section, I am assuming your thinking about slower moving boolits compared to rifles. I still believe one will get better penetration and less unnecessary damage without a HP. Mind you that is my opinion based on years of hunting deer with jacketed as well as cast boolits from handguns.

Edd

Your opinion counts sir, say anything you please.
I've considered waste/bloodshot meat also but I am thinking that a hollow point in a large caliber like a 44/45LC set up to expand at revolver velocities of say 1200 fps or so, and definitely inside 100 yards could transfer a LOT of energy into a Deer's ribcage even on a raking shot and put the animal down quickly. These are just thoughts.

I too have shot a few deer with Shotgun slugs, and some extremely fast high power rifle bullets. The waste caused by these rifles was ridiculous. I'm switching mainly to handguns from now on and just investigating the possibilities. Slow moving "large" projectiles will, I think, be the answer. If there is such a thing as an answer. But I like it.

[frank505]

shot a trophy doe on video with a 44 Mag Lyman compsite soft nose bullet. Shot distance was 15 yards, went through chest broadside, she ran 75 yards getting lower and lower until there was some tumbling. We had seen her and her pesky boyfriend along a fenceline and had to make quite a long walkabout to get the wind in our favor. Crawled until we ran out of cover, which was just a little grass and terrain. She was bedded until it was deer stand up time, looked our way and her eyes got kinda big, but too late. I am not real sure it was afaster kill than a regular Keith bullet, but is was a fun day.

[NHlever]

I would use a hollowpoint with a good reputation like the Hornady XTP, or the Speer Gold Dot out of a handgun, but probably not out of a rifle. I think soft points, or cast WFN, or semi wadcutters are much safer all around.

[yondering]

Obviously, the performance and rate of expansion of a hollow point has a lot do do with the alloy and velocity. 50/50 ww/pure is way too soft for hollow point hunting use unless velocity is ~900 fps or slower, or if the boolit is heat treated. This alloy treated to ~12-14 BHN should work pretty well, depending on boolit design of course. It offers better ductility than straight ww alloy.

If you're thinking of a heavy big bore boolit about 1200 fps or so, and want to use a HP, I'd suggest air cooled ww alloy, or a ww/pure alloy that is heat treated to the about that same hardness (the better way to go IMO.)

This is just my opinion, from the testing I've done with hollow points in 40/10mm, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt.

[Glen]

My favorite loads for hunting deer are cast HPs. They work very well on deer, and hogs too (just shoot them behind the shoulder, not through it). For some of the details, see:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellExpansionOfCastHP.htm
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCastHollowPoints.htm
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellPerfectBullet.htm
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellHogHunt4050Sharps.htm

[357maximum]

(just shoot them behind the shoulder, not through it). ]

That is some very good advice.....I learned that lesson the hardway. I had to use a wet dishcloth the whole time I cut up both shoulders to clean the way for me to see what I was doing and to get the "slush" off/out of the meat. My 1st and last HP "failure" was a combination of too soft an alloy and an UPPER end load in a 357Magnum revolver. I did absolutely everything wrong and I paid for it.

Our shooter deer average 120-170 lbs minus the guts so I do not need the penetration of a solid. I do however sometimes need a deer not to go too far to the west of my property. This forces me to put one high in the shoulder from time to time. For those times that I do have to "break one down" I choose the solid. I do not know when the need for a shoulder shot will arise so I do not carry the HP's.....even though it did kill like a small lightning bolt.

I would hate to think of what the added velocity of my other longer barrelled "pistols" would have done on that same shot with that same boolit...ewwww.

[TDC]

I've used them for decades.... I love them. But they do require proper placement and more attention to alloys than solids. Improper placement or load/alloy development can be a disaster. They aren't for everyone but they've served me very well in my handguns....

[Larry Gibson]

I prefer to shoot deer with HP'd cast bullets out of both rifle and handgun. I have shot lots of deer (black tails, mulies and white tails) while hunting and many more dispatching them as injured. I have used a myriad of handguns, rifles and different cartridges with different bullets in them. Good cast HPs kill deer quicker than any other style of case bullet period. The problem is you have to use a good HP. By that I mean of proper alloy that will expand at the terminal velocity. Most commercial mould HP stems are too long and allow the front expanding part of the bullet to shatter off or slough off. A good HP of proper alloy gives good expansion and improves the killing power of the bullet. Penetration with such a bullet is never a problem unless you gat anal and do a Texas heart shot (I don't) but then even with very good jacket bullets those can be a problem.

In Magnum handguns I prefer a GC'd SWC that is cast of 50/50 WW/lead. I prefer magnum cartridges such as the .32 H&R, .357, .41 and .44 with 6"+ barrels because you can drive standard weight bullets to 1400+ fps. With a good alloy like 50/50 and a GC'd bullet accuracy is excellent and leading is very minimal over 20 rounds or so. This allows me to check the zero and foul the bore with 6 shots before going out hunting.

In non-magnum handguns I also use a GC’d bullet but cast them of recovered .22LR alloy. I also HP these with the Forster tool. Thus with acceptable top end load in the .38 Special, .44 Special, .45 ACP/AR and the .45 Colt very good expanding HPs can be made. I’ve found these CG’d bullets when lubed with Javelina do not lead up through 1050 fps. In .357, 41 and .44 magnum 4” revolvers these same bullets can be pused to 1200 fps with excellent accuracy and no or minimal leading.

With rifles I generally push the GC'd 50/50 alloy cast bullet to 2100-2200 fps. I do this with .30-30, .308CBC, .308W, '06, 7.65 Argie, .303 Brit, 7.62x39, 7.62,54R, 8x57, .35 Remington and the .375 H&H. I also HP the 313631 for use in my M1 Carbine and at 1950 fps it is deadly on coyote's and jack rabbits. In the 45-70 I don't HP simply because when cast soft and driven to 1800+ fps a 300-400 gr GC'd bullet cast of 50/50 alloy is going to expand enough without the HP. These loads will begin to lead with that soft of alloy after 8-10 shots and accuracy begins to suffer a little. Yes I've tried lots of different lubes including the fabled LBT Blue and they all lead after 8-10 shots. However, best accuracy is with the first 8 shots and if I've not got the deer with those it's time to go home and clean the rifle anyway. If I don't shoot more than 15 shots the leading comes out with a cleaning routine.

BTW; I HP most of my cast bullets after they are loaded with a Forster 1/8" HP tool. In handguns I make the HP depth down to the front driving band. In rifles with velocities over 1600 fps I make the depth of the HP only about 1/3rd the length of the nose. With both expansion is excellent and penetration is still most often through and through on deer (I generally shoot to but the bullet through the heart area which means the bullet most often goes through at least one leg).

Some insist that HP'd cast bullets of 50/50 alloy will blow up at handgun velocities, not give sufficient penetration and cause too much meat damage. If their experience is such then they are simply not tailoring the HP to the alloy, velocity and game. It is not all that hard to get excellent results. Below are pictures of the deer I shot down in Texas this November. I shot him with the RCBS 35-200-FP cast of 50/50 alloy and HP'd about 1/3rd of the length of the bullet nose. The muzzle velocity was 2150 fps and the deer was about 90 yards away. The bullet entered the shoulder and obviously began expanding. It took out a rib going in, destroyed all the lung and arteries above the heart and took out a rib on the way out. There was minimal meat damage and the small amount of blood shot between the leg and ribs cleaned out easily. The 200 gr .35 caliber HP did not blow up and penetration was complete. The deer staggered maybe 20 feet after the shot and went down. In my book you can ask for better than that. I must say that the .35 Remington is fast becoming my favorite cast bullet rifle. It seems to kill a little better than the .30/31s even when they are loaded to the same velocity with HP'd 170 - 200 gr bullets. The only other cast bullet that seems about as effective is the 325471 HP out of the 8x57. Of course the .375 H&H is truly awesome with a HP'd 375449 at 2200 fps but the rifle is not a light handy hunting rifle suitable for most deer hunting.

You might ask what the example of the .35 Reminton shot deer has to do with handguns? Well if a 200 gr .35 caliber HP cast bullet did not blow up and do terrible meat damage at 2150 fps then how is a 150-200 gr .35 caliber cast HP (if cast of appropriate alloy and appropriatly HP'd) going to blow up or do more meat damage at a paltry 1200 - 1400 fps out of a handgun? Or an appropriately cast and HP'd cast bullet out of a .41, .44 or .45 for that matter? They are not is the answer. What a good HP is going to do is kill the deer quicker which translates into less tracking and potential to lose the deer. In some area's of the country where the brush is thick and it rains a bit that is always apossibility if the deer goes too far. If you don't want any meat damage then expect to head or neck shoot the deer or be a damn good tracker. Also expect to lose a deer or two along the way. That is not my style so I don't mind reasonable meat damage. Thus I use and recommend an appropriate HP’s cast bullet for hunting with both handgun and rifle because they kill quicker and more effectively. Every one has to make that choice for themselves. I made my choice and am just giving the reasons why. Good luck hunting regardless of your choice.

Larry Gibson

[Changeling]

There is so much great advise here that I just quit reading and printed everything, including Glen's links to a Mr. Fryxell, I have read a couple of his articles and the man seemed to really have his stuff together, if I'm wrong someone please tell me.

I will definitely be getting back to this post because it interests me so much but I want to read everything first.

One thing right off the bat that stands out is Larry Gibsons comments and the pictures, massive damage but dam little blood shot meat. That was the reasoning for this post, thanks Larry.

[jhalcott]

I use soft nose hard body bullets quite often rather than a hollowpoint. I get the same near instant kill as a hollow point with out the worry of a bullet break up. In the 30 calibers I use a 311041 (~170 gr) cast of air cooled WW. Or Lyman #2 bases with a softer nose.

[1874Sharps]

I whacked a 150 pound mule deer right after Thanksgiving a few weeks ago. This was the first time for me in using my own cast boolit for this purpose. The boolit was a 168 grain paper patched 30 caliber spire point launched from a K31 Swiss rifle at 2,500 fps. A hard alloy that could not be scratched by fingernail was chosen, as softer alloy did not penetrate sufficiently in wet phone book balistic tests. The shot went through both lungs of the deer and turned them into strawberry jelly which was strewn about the ground behind it. The deer shuddered and went down in one step. Now, I am admittedly not experienced as many of you are in this business, but the result sure sold me on the potentcy of such a high speed boolit. Below are some photos of the deer. The light was getting pretty low such that I could barely see the sights, so the quality of the photos is not that great (taken by the cell phone).

[357maximum]

Not to wander too far off the path here, but everytime I see a 35rem bolt action sporter I get a real bad case of the "GOOTA HAVES". Someday i will have one built up...someday. Larry that is one nice rifle you have there.

[Glen]

Excellent post Larry! I don't necessarily agree with all of the various details of your specific alloy choices, but whether or not I agree with them is irrelevant. THAT is the beauty of cast HP's -- one can easily tailor them to exactly what YOU want them to do! And they DO work.

[sixshot]

I agree, lots of good info here & 2 of the posters have lots of experience on big game with cast slugs. Although I seldom use cast HP's for hunting I have used them enough to know they kill faster than a normal solid slug. Once the velocity & alloy come together they are superb game getters.
Most of my experience comes from the regular solids but unlike most I use an alloy thats as soft as I can get by with, I seldom shoot any load beyond 1200 fps because I've never felt undergunned by doing so. Now if I start to see leading I'll make them harder but for me standard WW alloy usually works, that or I might bump up to 5/2 lead & linotype or water quench the WW's.
I'm more concerned with shot placement & penetration than I am about expansion, I think there are times when shooting a HP that you have to pass up a shot because of a bad angle, thats where the solids shine & the one disagreement I have is about being prepared to lose 1 or 2 animals, I don't believe a HP in the right spot is going to put game on the ground & a solid slug in the right spot is going to cost me an animal, at least in almost 45 years its never happend. Again I think the HP will give more "slap" actually I know it will but I'll live with less expansion & take the penetration, especially on game bigger than deer.
If I want expansion from my cast slugs I normally make softnose as opposed to HP's, not much difference.

Dick

[Blammer]

as soon as I get a HP mould for my 44mag I'll be using them for hunting. :)

[44man]

I steer away from soft or hollow points in my .44, .45 and .475 finding that a good meplat, cast hard and water dropped has no fleas on them. After a huge pile of deer shot both in the shoulders and behind the shoulder, none went more then 30 yards and the lungs will be destroyed. Those hit with the .475 behind the shoulder never make 20 yards and if hit in the shoulder, meat damage is minimal.
Larry has the right idea in that you are OK with a little expansion with guns like the .44. You need to reach a balance of expansion, boolit weight, penetration, internal damage and meat damage.
Over expansion is just not good with slow boolits from revolvers and I have found that no expansion is needed at all if the caliber starts with "4" and your boolit has a nice meplat, even a WLN works fine.
I throw all of this out the window when I use my 45-70 BFR because it is too fast and even a WFN does little damage to lungs. That is where I start to soften boolits and my mistake was to also use a hollow point. I lost most of a shoulder so I need to harden the alloy a little or drop the hollow point.
Once you go to hollow points in revolvers you need to work with alloys just like you do with a rifle although the alloy will be different for each velocity and boolit weight. It takes a lot of work on actual animals so stay away from wet paper, jugs of water, wood, etc.
I don't like the shot placement thing because when you shoot a deer off hand at 80 to 100 yards, you want the boolit to work the same as if you shot from a rest at 20 yards.
I learn from each deer and it might never end. This discussion will also never end because when someone shoots a deer with an explosive boolit and gets good results, he will say it is good. So will those that use a hard boolit and also gets good results. You need to average all deer and where each is hit. Many of my deer are walking, running or a spot is found that is open to aim into as the deer walks into it. It is rare to have a deer standing at the right angle at 20 yards during gun season, they never stop for more then a second because they found they live longer by moving all the time. I don't have 5 minutes to set up sticks, talk into a camera and aim another five minutes before I cock the hammer. I must react in an instant.
A true revolver hunter, hunting in areas other then private food plots must depend on boolit performance, speed and accuracy, many shots made in 10 seconds or less.
For all of you that like a certain alloy, hollow point, etc, you have to understand hunting conditions are different all over the country. I have mastered my conditions and deer do not get away once I settle on a shot. It is not the same as having a herd standing around, feeding at 10 yards.
I have 5 deer this season already but have little time in the field. The wife needs to be taken for disk decompression 4 times a week. I have to do all the work, feeding, shopping, etc. Now it is snowing and there is about 8" on the ground so it ruined today's hunting because I need to snow blow.
Do some thinking about your boolits to match your hunting conditions and don't rely on what you read or feel would work by blowing up a water jug.
The neighbor shot 8 times at a deer with a rifle and missed, I shoot once with a revolver and have meat. [smilie=s:
I never carry more then 5 or 6 rounds in the revolver and only once did I shoot a deer twice as he ran past me. No need because the first shot took out the heart. Some carry a belt with 50 rounds in it! :bigsmyl2: Rifle hunters carry as many as they can stuff in pockets.

[chaos]

I would use a hollowpoint with a good reputation like the Hornady XTP, or the Speer Gold Dot out of a handgun, but probably not out of a rifle. I think soft points, or cast WFN, or semi wadcutters are much safer all around.

When I first started Handgun Hunting, I purchased a vast amount of Hornady XTP 240 gr for my 44 mag. Midway had a supersale on them and they were darn near the cheapest thing I could find. I've shot a few deer with them and a great many Hogs. I've yet to have one expand in the least bit. I've fired them at both high and low velocities out of 44 mag handguns and rifles. Even took a buck with one wrapped in a Sabot out of my muzzle loader.

That particular bullet was my reason to going to cast bullets. It took game just fine, but never ever expanded. I never recovered one, but in my experience they leave a caliber sized entrance and a bit smaller than caliber exit.

I only use Hardcast with a decent meplat. Produces the same results. It is extremely rare for me to shoot a deer, but I do give them quite the workout on Hogs.

Chaos

[44man]

When I first started Handgun Hunting, I purchased a vast amount of Hornady XTP 240 gr for my 44 mag. Midway had a supersale on them and they were darn near the cheapest thing I could find. I've shot a few deer with them and a great many Hogs. I've yet to have one expand in the least bit. I've fired them at both high and low velocities out of 44 mag handguns and rifles. Even took a buck with one wrapped in a Sabot out of my muzzle loader.

That particular bullet was my reason to going to cast bullets. It took game just fine, but never ever expanded. I never recovered one, but in my experience they leave a caliber sized entrance and a bit smaller than caliber exit.

I only use Hardcast with a decent meplat. Produces the same results. It is extremely rare for me to shoot a deer, but I do give them quite the workout on Hogs.

Chaos
That's funny, I quit using them because they expanded too fast on chest hits on deer. I recovered every one against the far rib cage, full mushroom with not enough oomph left to poke through. That gave me great worry over a bone or quartering shot. After 4 deer, I quit using them.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

Four deer, 4 bullets, all very well expanded and obviously you recovered the deer. Is there really a problem there;-)

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Excellent post Larry! I don't necessarily agree with all of the various details of your specific alloy choices, but whether or not I agree with them is irrelevant. THAT is the beauty of cast HP's -- one can easily tailor them to exactly what YOU want them to do! And they DO work.

I agree, always more than one way to skin the cat. I have used several different alloys over the years quite successfully. The ones I mentioned are just the easiest to concoct and they work as well as others, well almost. The best alloy has been the one listed in the NRA supplements under a hunting with cast bullets article. It was a pain to make because of the solder requirement, to get it right anyways. It was/is and excellent alloy. I still have about 100 311041HPs I cast of the last batch I save just for hunting with my 14th birthday M94 30-30.

Merry Christmas

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Be interesting to note the barrel length and loads that Chaos and 44man used with the .44 XTP. Also the size of the deer.

I've shot several 150+ lbs on the hoof class deer with the .44 XTP out of 4, 6, and 7 1/2" barrels at 25 - 50 yards. The load was all the same (24.5 gr H110) but obviously the velocity was different. With the 4' I got through and through with no sign of expansion, deer was dead very quickly though. With the 6/6 1/2" barrels I got through and through with obvious expansion and dead deer. With the 7 1/2" barrel expansion was very obvious and i recovered on bullet similar to the ones 44man recovered with the deer being dead very, very quickly. This experience and my experience with the 357 and 41 magnums with different barrel lengths now leads me to believe it is not enough to just say what is good in a particular revolver cartridge but also with what barrel length and attendent velocity. What works well in one barrel length is not always going to work well in another.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Be interesting to note the barrel length and loads that Chaos and 44man used with the .44 XTP. Also the size of the deer.

I've shot several 150+ lbs on the hoof class deer with the .44 XTP out of 4, 6, and 7 1/2" barrels at 25 - 50 yards. The load was all the same (24.5 gr H110) but obviously the velocity was different. With the 4' I got through and through with no sign of expansion, deer was dead very quickly though. With the 6/6 1/2" barrels I got through and through with obvious expansion and dead deer. With the 7 1/2" barrel expansion was very obvious and i recovered on bullet similar to the ones 44man recovered with the deer being dead very, very quickly. This experience and my experience with the 357 and 41 magnums with different barrel lengths now leads me to believe it is not enough to just say what is good in a particular revolver cartridge but also with what barrel length and attendent velocity. What works well in one barrel length is not always going to work well in another.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I shot a 200 pound on the hoof doe in Ohio with my 44 Mag Smith with 6.5 inch barrel with the Hornady 180 grain XTP. She dropped instantly in her tracks. The distance was about 35 yards. I was in my tree stand. Hornady was surprised that a 180 grain worked.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

I haven't shot a deer with an XTP but have done some playing with them in .44 and .45 Blackhawks, both the .44 "mag" version and .45 "plain vanilla". My test medium was both oiled hardwood sawdust and soggy phonebooks. I found the .44 "mag" version @ 1350 to 1450 fps rarely expanded in sawdust, usually clogging the HP instead. Had a couple shed their jacket though. (when they DID expand) Same with the .45 in wet newsprint, jackets intact this time but again clogged HP, great penetration but no expansion at 1000 fps. Gonna up the velocity in the .45 and see if that'll help, but FWIW, I'm not very gung ho on the XTP. Seems kinda "persnickety" as to velocity and impact medium. I'm thinking the 457122 will be a much better performer in my .45 if it'll stay accurate after the big squeeze down to .454". But whatever, I'm sure a 150 lb deer is gonna go down with an XTP in the boiler room, just a metter of how fast.....Two centavos, Dennis ;-)

[44man]

44man

Four deer, 4 bullets, all very well expanded and obviously you recovered the deer. Is there really a problem there;-)

Larry Gibson
Yes, I think so. Cover is heavy here and deer vanish fast. Even though I found the deer, back tracking showed either no blood trail or very sparse. Now these were only behind the shoulder shots with only a rib on the entrance side hit. I got to thinking about what would happen to the bullet if I hit a large bone in the shoulder. Then a quartering shot with more to go through before vitals are hit.
I shot this bullet with 24 gr of 296 out of a 10" SBH.
All of the rest of the deer I shot with the .44 using 320 and 330 gr hard cast LBT styles has shown tremendous blood trails that I can run on and deer don't go as far as they did with the 240 XTP. Hits have been the same and I don't have the worry about not smashing every bone first if I hit the shoulder.
So far I have only used the WLN meplat but I have been nothing but amazed at how fast they kill and the amount of blood on the ground. Meat damage is small too.
If I had to go back to XTP's I would use the 300 gr. I want two holes every time.
I will take a heavy hard cast every time until velocity gets too fast.
This is what a hard cast .475 boolit does to a deer's heart.

[Bucks Owin]

Well, guess you aren't gonna be able to roast that heart for cold sandwiches! (But that liver still looks tasty!) Regards, Dennis :mrgreen:

[Uncle R.]

I want two holes every time.


Hear Hear!
I agree. Yes - the game is often killed quicker without that second hole. I've seen scores of quick clean kills with only one hole.
BUT - sometimes things go wrong. Excrement occurs - and when it does I want a good blood trail. I consider no exit hole on a broadside or quartering shot a bullet failure.
I've never taken a deer with an XTP but I've seen the old "pre XTP" 240 gr Hornady HPs give excellent performance on deer - meaning signs of medium expansion rate and quarter-sized exit holes. I took one deer with the old Sierra 240 grain jacketed hollow cavity in a Ruger carbine. Four hits through the ribs and no signs of expansion at all. Four tiny exit holes. Deer ran maybe fifty yards after the first hit - and while the next three were being delivered. Internal damage was not extreme - I don't believe those bullets opened at all.
<
Uncle R.

[Changeling]

Well this has been one of the most informable 2 sided posts I have ever read, at least in the revolver range velocities. It's impossible to compare cast bullets regardless of there Type/composition/style when one jumps from rifle velocities to revolver velocities.

I have very little experience with "revolver bullets", but I do know that the "LARGE" meplat bullets do work and work well. However I am also interested in properly set up for the game at hand hollow points. I really believe there is more there than meets the eye.

Back in the days of Keith and before hollow points were given a lot of respect because of there ability to deliver a devastating killing blow at velocities in the 1000 to 1400 fps range . This was no accident those guys knew something are they wouldn't have even considered them if they did didn't work, through experience. Even Keith adored them!

I put a lot more faith in experience than I do the ranting of some manufacture, been there, seen it, and done it.
I've shot one deer with an LBT WFN in a 44 Mag that dropped dead in its tracts basically , does this make me an expert, Hell no!

But it does make me wonder "What If"!!!!!

[sixshot]

Great reading here, I always enjoy posts about bullet contstruction, failure, etc & find them to be the most interesting of all. When the bullets are fired from sixguns, where the velocity is quite low compared to rifles it always gets quite interesting to read others results & experiences. We all know that one or two animals, whether successful or not doesn't mean a whole lot.

One thing I have never done is down play how good jacketed bullets really are, there are many really good ones out there, unlike the old days of the 60's & 70's, I used them several times on deer & on a couple of elk with very good results. While I do prefer cast I must say that there are several, the Hornady XTP's, the 270 gr Speer Gold Dot, the Nolsers & Barnes bullets & Belt Mountain's Punch bullets that will handle any big game animal with excellent results & many times complete penetration.

I too would say that 4 deer with 4 shots & good expansion is almost as good as it gets, I would prefer an exit, which I always get with cast but it looks as though those bullets did exactly as they were suppose to do.

Kelly from Belt Mountain handed me some of his Punch bullets this year down at Raton, New Mexico at the Holiday & I'd have to say, if you want complete penetration with a jacketed slug it would be hard to improve on his design, its basically a full jacketed flatnose, built for big game, he & Ben Forkin have taken bison with it & gotten complete penetration.

I've taken elk with the 270 gr 44 Speer Gold Dot & gotten complete penetration on broadside shots, you could see the bullet had expanded, they are very good.

I'll always prefer cast because I've had such good success with them for many, many years but I would be perfectly happy with a good jacketed slug, especially on deer if I were an eastern hunter using a blind or tree stand. I'll never understand those who say cast bullets are slow killers, that they wound game & you lose them, this is totally opposite of what I've found. A bad hit with any bullet is a bad hit, a jacketed bullet won't make the difference in wounding one or losing one, at least thats been my experience on anything from deer & hogs up through elk, moose bear, african game & in Alaska.

Dick

[Larry Gibson]

44man

"I shot this bullet with 24 gr of 296 out of a 10" SBH."

You are pushing a max load out of a 10" barrel and are probably above the fps limits for that bullets terminal effectiveness. You are probably running 1550 -1600 fps or more. Your experience on deer just about prove that. In a shorter barreled revolver of 6 - 7 1/2 barrel velocity with that load would be 1400+ fps with much better performeance. In a 4" barrel velcoity is around 1150 - 1200 fps and expansing at 25 - 50 yards on deer is iffy unless shoulders are hit. Your behind the shoulder shot offers little mass for expansion at the much lessor velocity.

"If I had to go back to XTP's I would use the 300 gr."

No doubt the best choice for that 10" barreled revolver.

I rest my case. As I said ealrlier, it is not enough to say this bullet or that bullet is good or bad or best in a particular revolver cartridge for deer hunting (or other big game for that matter). If making a statement of what bullet is good or bad it must be quantified with the barrel length and the muzzle velocity. Otherwise we find exactly what we find here; a bullet that is marginally effective as an expanding HP in shorter barrels and is to expansive at higher velocities in longer barreled revolvers (applies to carbines and Contenders also if velocities excede 1500 fps for the 240 gr XTP).

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

"I shot a 200 pound on the hoof doe in Ohio with my 44 Mag Smith with 6.5 inch barrel with the Hornady 180 grain XTP. She dropped instantly in her tracks. The distance was about 35 yards. I was in my tree stand. Hornady was surprised that a 180 grain worked."

Joe

The 180 XTP is actually a proven deer slayer in .44 revolvers, especially those with 4-6" barrels. I am not surprised it worked well for you particularly with the down angle shot. Nice "trophy" doe.

Speaking of Hornady; I've never really understood Hornady's "effective velocity" ratings in their manual. They list 900-1800 fps for the 240 XTP and my experience (apparently 44mans also) is that they over expand at closer ranges if the muzzle velocity is 1500+ fps. On the other hand Hornady lists the 180 XTP as effective from 750 - 1400 fps. Quite frankly I've never found the 180 XTP to reliably expand much under 1000 fps but it is an effective expander at 14-1500 fps in deer. Hornady also checks it off as suitable for "medium game". Aren't deer "medium game", so why is Hornady surprised? The 180 XTP is the J bullet I recommend for 4" barreled .44 Magnums for personal defense and medium game. Works a lot better than any 240 gr bullet in those 4" barrels. Also works very well in 6" barrels as you know. However, this thread had turned from cast HPs to the 240 gr XTP so that's where we were. Now we also are talking the 180 XTP which is fine and I might add that the 200 gr XTP is a very good performer on deer in 4 - 6" barreled revolvers also.

With cast bullets in .44 Magnum revolvers I still prefer a soft cast GC'd bullet driven to 1400 fps from any barrel length. This means the shorter the barrel the lighter the bullet needs to be. A 429244 HP'd or the 429640 HP is suitable for 6 -10" revolvers and the 429215 HP'd is suitable for the 4 - 5" revolvers. The key to any barrel length is cast soft, HP, use a GC and have the muzzle velocity at 14-1450 fps and they will perform very well on deer to any reasonable handgun range. BTW; I've not seen penetration to be a problem with these HP'd cast bullets on deer. That is my perspective on what works well most of the time and what kills deer the quickest using .44 Magnum revolvers with a well placed heart/lung shot. It is what I have come to use most successfully the 25-30 years.
Nothing wrong with a good XTP at the correct velocity for deer though;-)

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

I haven't shot enough deer with handguns (2 total) to be making any statements about what works and what doesn't for me. Both deer were taken with J-words that acted like cast solids, and both folded up very quickly. What that proves.......I dunno.

I think shot placement remains the more predictable determinant of bullet/boolit performance. The R&D to develop a Better Bullet is a valid pursuit, and worthy of the effort. But after dressing out several deer--attending a bunch of autopsies--and interviewing a whole lot of gunshot wound recipients, I'm still not convinced that A Better Bullet has as much to do with the outcome as does A Better Shooter.

The most tangible asset that boolit casting affords the hunter is NOT the construction or configuration of the boolit used in the field. Sure--I like big meplats, sharp shoulders on SWCs, and enough mass/ballistic coefficient to drive the boolit through the critter. But that's gravy, NOT meat. No, the real advantage cast boolits give us is the oppurtunity for affordable range practice. The ability to REALLY learn the load and firearm well, to gauge its abilities and limitations at distance without spending a fortune on the process.

Mi dos centavos, amigos.

[Bucks Owin]

Larry, there are supposedly two flavors of XTPs in the .45 cal line. An "XTP" for .SAAMI .45 Colt use and an XTP "mag" for .454 Casull or perhaps Linebaugh data .45 Colt that is built somewhat stouter for the velocity increase. Just thought I'd throw that in the mix....Dennis

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, there are supposedly two flavors of XTPs in the .45 cal line. An "XTP" for .SAAMI .45 Colt use and an XTP "mag" for .454 Casull or perhaps Linebaugh data .45 Colt that is built somewhat stouter for the velocity increase. Just thought I'd throw that in the mix....Dennis

That's just my point, you've got to keep up on the info and use the right bullet for the job at hand giiven the cartridge and barrel lengh/load to be used. Even with cast bullets if you want expansion you must use the right alloy with the right bullet for the barrel length and velocity used. But then that's the nice thing about cast; if you use a Keith type SWC or a bullet with a large flat meplat then if no expansion happens you have, at least, the best of that world:-)

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Of course you are right Larry, the XTP 240 opens too fast. However my friend had only one hole with his 7-1/2" hunter too.
I searched for my chrono readings but can't find them. I have to do it again when the 20" of snow goes away. I don't remember it being as fast as you guess it is though.
Now the reason for 24 gr of 296 is that is where the bullet is accurate enough to shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yards. In fact it is one of the most accurate bullets I ever shot, even better then the silhouette bullets.
Now you know me well enough to understand I will never change a load to lose accuracy so I try to tailor the bullet/ boolit to that point instead.
If someone hunts and shoots deer at 20 to 50 yards they would do OK with a reduced load.
My closest shot with the bullets I showed was 60 yards and the longest was about 91 yards. You would think expansion would slow at longer ranges.
I also do not believe in stopping penetration for "energy dump". There is ample energy to do the job even with super penetration.
I posted the picture before of 14 gallon jugs of water I shot with the .475. It blew 4 to pieces, sky high, split 2 more and went all the way through all 14 jugs in a nice straight line. WFN, hard cast at about 25 BHN.
Granted, the .44 will not do that but even one jug exploded is good enough for deer.

[HamGunner]

A dead deer is a dead deer, but I want the deer to be dead in my freezer and not in the belly of a coyote.

I have shot several deer each with the 240gr. XTP .44cal. in both 6 1/2" handgun and 94 Win. Carbine and found that the handgun did not have enough penetration. Never lost one with the handgun, but they were not two holers and I want two holes.

The velocity in the carbine with the 240gr. XTP bullet is way too fast for this soft bullet and penetration is very poor, in my opinion. I lost one buck shot standing broadside through the shoulder at less than 75yds. with the carbine. No blood trail. Found no blood at all in a forty acre area. And no deer. It was a good shot, poor bullet performance because the 240gr. XTP was too soft or too light. The 300gr. XTP in .44 would be a much better choice for carbine use but the velocity would be quite low. The lighter 240gr. XTP is certainly not a bullet to use unless only a lung shot is considered but I will no longer use hollow pointed jacketed handgun or rifle bullets on deer with a .44 mag.

I have since only hunted with my cast bullets in both handguns and the the .44 carbine. I get two holes and dead deer in my freezer. I use Keith type bullets that I hollow point with the Forester hollowpointing tool but have never recovered one to comment on the degree of expansion. For the revolver, I don't use more than about air cooled 50/50 ww/lead with the 429421, but I do use a gas checked bullet, 429215gc in the carbine that has a touch of linotype added.

Edit: Oh, and I try to avoid shoulder shots, but I think the cast would work much better for that shot.

[dubber123]

I shot a 137# 8Pt a few years back with a 240 XTP from my 16.5" Marlin. (Jims favorite rifle, 1894P). Velocity at 15' was 1,800 fps. The shot was at an honest 100 yds., and other then nicking a rib on entry, it hit nothing hard. No exit. I supected that a reduction in velocity would help, but I took the easy way out, and switched to 270 gr. Gold Dots. End to end penetration, with good damage. The XTP deer didn't go far, and it was a good thing, as it didn't leak a drop, and it was all brown leaves on the ground.

[44man]

I shot a 137# 8Pt a few years back with a 240 XTP from my 16.5" Marlin. (Jims favorite rifle, 1894P). Velocity at 15' was 1,800 fps. The shot was at an honest 100 yds., and other then nicking a rib on entry, it hit nothing hard. No exit. I supected that a reduction in velocity would help, but I took the easy way out, and switched to 270 gr. Gold Dots. End to end penetration, with good damge. The XTP deer didn't go far, and it was a good thing, as it didn't leak a drop, and it was all brown leaves on the ground.
Not the easy way out--- the SMART way out and was the point I was making. Since you do not want to download and ruin accuracy, just change bullets or boolit alloy.
Let the animal you kill or lose tell the whole story about the next step you might need to take.
If the bullet you use works perfect at 800 fps but your gun shoots for **** at that speed, why would you use it? If you shoot 1500 fps with a soft hollow point and it is explosive with no penetration, why would you use it?
I seen MORE internal damage in chest shots on deer with a hard boolits that went all the way through then I did with the 240 XTP.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
VERY GOOD POINTS MADE WITH GOOD INFO. SOME POSTS BY MEMBERS WITH MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE THAN I HAVE.
Here are a few random thoughts:
1) I THINK that most of us would agree, that since the advent of firearms more game has been killed w/ lead projectiles.
2) I THINK most would agree that bullet placement is generally more important than bullet size(within limits, no artillery shells allowed),shape, or velocity( WITHIN LIMITS,bullet has to be traveling more than several hundred f/s) .
Hatcher, Kieth, & Cooper were not wrong, 40 cal or bigger & 1000'/s or more is best.
3) After the bullet exits the animal, the energy is wasted on the countryside. Only positive here is a second leak & better blood trail.
4) From personal ballistic tests :
158 gr. SWC air cooled WW from a 357 Ruger Blackhawk 6&1/2" barrel, book max. loads unique & 2400, will completely penetrate & exit both shoulders or both hips of a deer at 25yds.
250 gr. SWC air cooled WW from a 44 Ruger Superblackhawk 7&1/2" barrel, 22grs 2400 or 11 grs unique, will do the same. AND WILL ALSO COMPLETELY PENETRATE STEM TO STERN & EXIT.
This was on a 200+ lb. road kill doe I got from the F&G to do ballistic tests on.

Most big dangerous game in Africa is & was hunted & killed with solids even FMJ. THE FOCUS WAS/IS LARGE DIA. BULLETS, GOOD BULLET PLACEMENT & PENETRATION.
Experience to add :
3 mule deer 1 shot (chest) 250 gr. Kieth style SWC air cooled WW ,died where they stood, 44 mag. All between 50-70 yds. Ruger Superblackhawk 7 &1/2" barrel.
3 mule deer 1 shot 250 gr. Kieth SWC died. 444 marlin.

That being said I just bought a Foster hollow pointer, today after reading this thread. I will take every possible advantage I can get. Heck I have even been known to use J-bullets.

[JudgeBAC]

Posted this in another thread but it looks very appropriate here:

This is an interesting article on practical handgun hunting ballistics.

Handgun Hunting Loads-A Critical View :: By J. Marshall Stanton on 2005-09-10

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm

[Changeling]

Posted this in another thread but it looks very appropriate here:

This is an interesting article on practical handgun hunting ballistics.

Handgun Hunting Loads-A Critical View :: By J. Marshall Stanton on 2005-09-10

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm


I read that. The RPI index means absolutely nothing, but penetration is an extremely large part of the equation that is trying to be displayed. An individual has absolutely no way to correlate those readings to a deer than then the man in the moon. My opinion.



Ive posted a question that will hopefully help resolve the weight to velocity to meplat delima in the real world. I really hope there is enough input to come to some conclusions, We'll see.