Sideways .303 bullets.

[JeffinNZ]

Team.

Check out this 25m target. Scroll down the page a little.

http://antiquearms.co.nz/shooting.htm

[docone31]

Jeff, if you look at the target, they set it up tilted!
See the long holes? They start narrow, then get larger.
A bullet has a small diameter, they wanted to make sure the few hits could be seen.
It also looks like they rotated the target also.
Looks impressive though.

[JeffinNZ]

Nup. It would be square on. It was shot on my range and there is no way to tilt or rotate the target.

Great stopping power!

[doubs43]

Team.

Check out this 25m target. Scroll down the page a little.

http://antiquearms.co.nz/shooting.htm

Jeff, I have a 1916 LSA #1 Mk III that I've used to shoot sub- 1 inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards using 165 grain GC cast bullets and 21.5 grains of AA-1680. Looks like whoever shot that target needs a bullet that fits the bore more tightly.

Sure they're not slinging the rifle side to side and firing at the appropriate time? :holysheep

[docone31]

Hmmm. That theory went out the window.
How about useing .312 jacketeds?
I bet a lot of folks are going to have fun with this.

[Shiloh]

Have and '03 Springfield that would do that with jacketed bullets.

Shot better with cast.
The last several inches of barrel was lacking in rifling, almost gone at the muzzle.
Greeks beat it to death with a cleaning rod.

New Douglas Premium barrel fixed it right up!! Can't tell it isn't original military unless you see the missing date and ordnance bomb near the front sight.

Shiloh

[Mk42gunner]

At least they got most of the magazine full on target. Yikes...


Robert

[Crash_Corrigan]

I would not to have those boolits hit any part of me! That is gonna smart some!

For all the sideways hits it ain't a bad group.

[atr]

I agree with Crash,,,not a bad group considering..
I have a Mauser93 which tumbles the boolets...I measured the free-bore and it was almost 7/8"...in my case I think the boolits are having to jump to far before they contact the rifling

[richbug]

I have a #5 that did that the first time I tried cast in it. All fully sideways. It shoots jacketed fine though(except for the recoil).

[m.chalmers]

Undersized and maybe a boat tail. Seen it 1,000 times. Cast the old girl and call CBE in OZ to get her right.
http://www.castbulletengineering.com/

Good luck!

[swheeler]

Looks just like targets from a Carcano I USED to own, 6.5 cruse missles perfect sideways impacts. This was a gain twist rifle that had been shortened to 21'.

[Red River Rick]

I have to agree with M.Chalmers. I've seen the same, when someone used .308, 165 gr BT's in their No 4 Mk 2. Probably wouldn't be too bad if the groove dia was 0.311, but his measured 0.316! So, not much wonder the bullets won't stabalize.

RRR

[bruce drake]

Looks like a perfect candidate for some paper patch loading!

Bruce

[dualsport]

Something is wrong with that load. They're supposed to go in the other way.

[MtGun44]

Jeff,
What bullets were you using?

Bill

PS any news on your lead?

[Multigunner]

I'd read somewhere that unless a bore failed a plug gauge test the only other test result that would lead to an Enfield barrel being condemned was when a certain percentage of bullet holes in the target showed as ovals rather than round holes.
Acceptable group sizes for a new rifle were a joke to begin with, a four out of five bullets within a four inch square at 100 yards if I remember correctly.
Not that most Enfields weren't highly accurate, its just that the British didn't put that much emphasis on individual marksmanship.
If a rifle could hit within a torso at 50 yards it might not be suitable for combat but it would likely be issued to some support trooper, a driver or cook.
Bores would become eroded very quickly with accuracy begining to drop off at between 500 and 1600 rounds, then steadily declining after that, keyholing could be expected at around 12,000 rounds if no other damage was done by poor cleaning or firing rifle grenades.
Accuracy acceptance standards for the MkVII was also rather loose, a figure of merit of 8 compared to a six for the .30/06 ball.
Rifles used to fire grenades were chosen from the least accurate and bulged barrels became common.
A few of those rifles are still around, and some shoot fairly well, but no telling how many ended up scrapped.
Better ammo wouldn't have helped a whole lot since Cordite at least could bump up the usually undersized bullets enough to fill the very often oversized bores.
If a bore is on the tight side with little or no throat erosion and the bullet around .312 accuracy with modern powders can be superb.

[JeffinNZ]

BILL: It is not my rifle. Owned by fellow club member with more Lee Enfields that any of you could shake a stick at.

Haven't been retested for the lead just yet. Waiting a bit longer. Thanks for asking. Will let you know.

[dualsport]

You've never seen me shake a stick, I can really go to town. Cheers! By the way Jeff, thanks for so many enjoyable reads, with your help I've developed a lot of respect for my SMLEs, still a work in progress, but since I too have 'many' I decided to work up loads and have fun shooting them, instead of just looking at them. I'm anxiously awaiting my GB314299 Mod and will get some 4350(as you've suggested) to go with the new boolits. I also have a .444 Marlin chambered barrel coming to attempt my first conversion. My first cast bullet efforts with my Savage looked like that target.

[docone31]

I have though about this a long time.
If the target is not set at an angle, then they have designed rifleing to tumble the bullet during flight.
This way, they could circumvent the hollow point rule.
Brilliant.

[jonk]

I've seen that with a few guns/load combos... I suspect that when it happens like this and most shots hit the target, it's less a case of bore fit and more a case of insufficient stabilization for a given velocity/twist/bullet weight. If it left the gun tumbling it wouldn't even hit the paper reliably- which I've also seen.

[Hickory]

Years ago a guy I know had a military rifle in 6.5mm of some sort.
He cut the barrel back 8 inches, and he suffered the same results.

It turns out that it had a gain twist in the barrel.
The twist started out something like 1 in 20 and at the end of the barrel it increased to 1in 7"
When he cut off the end of the barrel he cut off the faster twist.

[Multigunner]

I have though about this a long time.
If the target is not set at an angle, then they have designed rifleing to tumble the bullet during flight.
This way, they could circumvent the hollow point rule.
Brilliant.

The MkVII bullet was not designed to tumble in flight, but its based on the Velopex hunting bullet designed for express rifles, to allow a longer bullet for the over all weight.
The lead core goes about 2/3 from the base, the tip is filled with a light weight nose plug. Aluminum was the standard tip material, but wood, paper pulp, and a sort of plastic wood filler were substituted at various times.

While the MkVII may be more prone to keyholing, I've seen bullets of more conventional construction keyhole every shot same as the target pictured here.

Undersized bullets in a worn bore are the major cause of keyholing.
Bullets can skid and strip if the rifling can't get a good bite.
Too hard a jacket is another contributing factor, and too soft is even worse.

The MkVII jacket is tough, it had to be to prevent jacket stripping due to blowby, a common problem with the earliest .303 bullets, and the heavy round nose bullet used by the 1903 loadings of the US .30 Springfield cartridge.
When excessive erosion allowed blowby the bullet jacket would soften and separate from the core then blow through at the nose, so a thicker and stiffer jacket was used.

Hard jackets require more bumping up to fill the deep Enfield grooves.
The MkV8z with boat tail bullet can't bump up in an oversized bore so it can keyhole in a barrel that still handles MkVII with no problems.


PS
The Germans objected to the MkVII bullet many times, and there are records of captured British troops being executed when the bullets caused horrific wounds to German troops.

In testing on car bodies I found the MkVII bullet to have very poor penetration of light sheet metal, and a text on the primitive body armor of WW1 states that the MkVII bullet was the least effective of any tested.
British Snipers found there standard issue ammo completely ineffective against armorered loopholes, so big game rifles with solids were used for these until an accurate AP round could be produced.

[25/303]

Canadian Snipers found that if they turned the MKVII projectile around shooting it flat base first it would penetrate Loophole plate.

[rondog]

What? I thought Enfields were supposed to keyhole? At least all of mine do, the bastages.....

[nekshot]

What? I thought Enfields were supposed to keyhole? At least all of mine do, the bastages.....
thats funny!!!!, you aren't serious are you?

[HollowPoint]

I always get a kick out of these Enfield "Side-Ways" bullet posts. I guess it's not all that uncommon. Mine used to do it too. I used to think it was all my fault. Now I see that it isn't necessarily the shooter's fault.

The thing I have't come across in these Key-Holing "Side-Ways" bullet threads is a definitive answer for why it happens. I'm sure there are just as many causes as there are cases of this happening. In my case, I had to re-barrel to get rid of the problem.

HollowPoint

[rondog]

thats funny!!!!, you aren't serious are you?
Sort of. They all HATE boat tailed bullets.

[Tackleberry41]

I got rid of a mosin recently that you could not hit a 12" target with from more than 25 ft. War production, just abused, was using factory Russian ammo, but they were tumbling. Might have been able to mess with it, but had 3 mosins so got rid of it.

[PAT303]

I shot both my full woods yesterday,Mk111 and No.4,both kept 5 CBE 220grn boolits inside 4'' at 230mtrs yet both will tumble Hornady 174grn BT match jacketed at 25mtrs.The CBE boolits are .315,the Hornady match are .310,both my rifles have chamber necks around .342 with .316 throats as measured by pound casts,there's your answer to the tumbling. Pat

[BigEyeBob]

A lot of SMLE's suffered with cord wear ,ie the pull through cord wearing the rifling at the muzzle ,I have an armorers' gauge somewhere that was used to measure it .

[Tackleberry41]

Its a bit curious with the excellent companies making really expensive guns in England, why the bores on their military weapons were all over the place on size. You can sort of understand it with the Russians, but England is capable of better.

[rosst]

Its a bit curious with the excellent companies making really expensive guns in England, why the bores on their military weapons were all over the place on size. You can sort of understand it with the Russians, but England is capable of better.

war time production and peace time production are not the same . .. .

[JeffinNZ]

Its a bit curious with the excellent companies making really expensive guns in England, why the bores on their military weapons were all over the place on size. You can sort of understand it with the Russians, but England is capable of better.

Three factors:

1) War time production.
2) Wear from cleaning and Cordite erosion.
3) The two groove barrels had much deeper rifling to allow for displacement of the jacket material due to the fewer number of grooves.

You'll find Krags and Springfields had a degree of variation also.