41 magnum vs 10 mm auto

[Bradley]

From a practical point of view, what is the primary difference, if any, between the ballistic performance of a 41 Magnum and a 10mm revolver? Obviously the 10mm would have to use moon clips and would fire a slightly smaller diameter bullet but... Beyond that is there any significant difference between these two?

[jhalcott]

the 10 uses a 155 grain bullet at around 1400fps . The 41 mag does the same velocity with a 210 grain slug. I'd guess the .41 beats the energy and trajectory levels of the 10 MM quite easily.

[sargenv]

Um.. the 10 mm original load was a 200 gr bullet at 1200 fps. This was the original Norma load which likely shook apart many a delta elite. In a revolver, you can buy and cast 10 mm up to 220 gr. I have both calibers.. the 41 magnum can use slightly heavier bullets.. I've been able to crank 235 gr (41 cal) truncated cone Bear creeks to 1315 fps. Either can be used to take deer sized game.. and in a Revolver you may be able to make that 200 or 220 gr pill a tad faster than Norma did 20 years ago since there are some slow burners that were unavailable back then.

It was always thought that you could load the 10mm to light 41 magnum performance. Neither caliber are all that popular..

[Bradley]

Um.. the 10 mm original load was a 200 gr bullet at 1200 fps. This was the original Norma load which likely shook apart many a delta elite. In a revolver, you can buy and cast 10 mm up to 220 gr. I have both calibers.. the 41 magnum can use slightly heavier bullets.. I've been able to crank 235 gr (41 cal) truncated cone Bear creeks to 1315 fps. Either can be used to take deer sized game.. and in a Revolver you may be able to make that 200 or 220 gr pill a tad faster than Norma did 20 years ago since there are some slow burners that were unavailable back then.

It was always thought that you could load the 10mm to light 41 magnum performance. Neither caliber are all that popular..

Thanks! That was helpful.

[HammerMTB]

.41 Mag wheel gun= 6 rounds and reload
10MM auto pistol, mags vary, but my Glock 20=15+1 up the pipe
Lotta firepower
The .41 has a slight ballistic advantage, as noted above. I doubt anything you'd shoot a slug into would be able to tell the difference.... :shock:

[softpoint]

A Glock full of 10mm ammo is pretty formidable medicine. I'd probably as soon have my G20 in bad bear country as my .454 Freedom. A hailstorm of 200 gr. FMJ at 1200 fps. will make most anything uncomfortable. And since I figure if a bear jumps me, some of my shots may be ill aimed[smilie=1:. :mrgreen:

[fredj338]

.41 Mag wheel gun= 6 rounds and reload
10MM auto pistol, mags vary, but my Glock 20=15+1 up the pipe
Lotta firepower
The .41 has a slight ballistic advantage, as noted above. I doubt anything you'd shoot a slug into would be able to tell the difference.... :shock:

I own a couple of 10mm, but it is NOT a 41mag, not even close. The best you are going to do is 1200fps w/ a 200gr bullet in a 4.5"-5"bbl. The 41mag, even in a 4" rev. will run 210gr @ 1300fps, 220gr @ 1250fps & cast heavy 240gr @ 1200fps. The 10mm actually compares closer to a heavy loaded 357mag.

[HammerMTB]

I own a couple of 10mm, but it is NOT a 41mag, not even close. The best you are going to do is 1200fps w/ a 200gr bullet in a 4.5"-5"bbl. The 41mag, even in a 4" rev. will run 210gr @ 1300fps, 220gr @ 1250fps & cast heavy 240gr @ 1200fps. The 10mm actually compares closer to a heavy loaded 357mag.

Perhaps you can point out the warm-blooded critter that will be able to tell the difference in the 2?
Then we could do the math on the difference in a cylinder full of .41 Mag vs. a mag full of 10MM?
And you can get 200 grainers to go close to 1300 in a 6" bbl. There are 6" bbls available for the Glock 20.
Cheers! :drinks:

[mike in co]

Um.. the 10 mm original load was a 200 gr bullet at 1200 fps. This was the original Norma load which likely shook apart many a delta elite. In a revolver, you can buy and cast 10 mm up to 220 gr. I have both calibers.. the 41 magnum can use slightly heavier bullets.. I've been able to crank 235 gr (41 cal) truncated cone Bear creeks to 1315 fps. Either can be used to take deer sized game.. and in a Revolver you may be able to make that 200 or 220 gr pill a tad faster than Norma did 20 years ago since there are some slow burners that were unavailable back then.

It was always thought that you could load the 10mm to light 41 magnum performance. Neither caliber are all that popular..


seems to me the orginal norma load for the 10 is a 175/180 at 1350......not a 200...

and yes the originator handicapped the question by asking about a 10mm REVOLVER. one easy way to tilt the results to the 41.....and i missed a NIB 41 mag lever gun this last weekend...

[leadman]

A 220gr. TC boolit can easily be pushed past 1,400fps in my Super BH Hunter. My "light" load pushes this boolit over 1,300 fps with just 17.8grs. of LiL'Gun.

[yondering]

Kind of an obvious comparison really. The 10mm has less case capacity, so obviously it can't match the .41 in a revolver.

The 41 is a revolver cartridge. It can do everything the 10mm can do, and then some, in a revolver. There's really no point to putting a 10mm in a revolver, except to satisfy the die-hard 10mm fans.

The 10mm is a semi-auto cartridge. Good luck getting the 41 into a reasonable sized semi-auto. This is where the 10mm shines, and it really does shine, in a semi-auto. It doesn't offer 41 mag ballistics, but it does beat a similar sized .357 pretty well. I get 1500+ fps with 155gr HP's from my Para's 5" barrel, with 21+1 round capacity. And that's just a long throated .40 loaded to 10mm specs, not even a full 10mm case.

It really comes down to whether you want a revolver or semi-auto. If you want a revolver, there's almost no reason whatsoever to choose a 10mm.

[rbuck351]

I,m shooting the lyman 410610 cast at 220+gr out of my 6" Blackhawk 41 at a measured 1480fps. When spring gets here I will be testing a 240 gr. Hoping to get 1400. Heavier bullets means more penetration past the heavy frontal parts of a bear. One heavy getting through is much better than 20 lighter ones that don't. Quantity does not always make up for quality. The 10mm is a nice round but it's not a 41.

[dougader]

Clearly, the power level award goes to the 41 mag. The 10mm takes the prize for capacity, obviously.

If I was in bear country - especially brown/grizzly bear territory - I'd take the 41 mag revolver. I NEED that first bullet to be powerful, deep penetrating and on target. I most likely will not get a 2nd, or especially, a 3rd shot off if we're talking about a charging bear. The 41 mag with a WLN or WFN profile will crush better and drive deeper than a lighter, softer shouldered 10 mm.

For light skinned game like cougar or wolf, or for personal defense against those bent on criminal harm, I'd chose the 10mm.

[sqlbullet]

Well...(Cracks knuckles, prepares to type feverishly)

Sorry I am late to the party. I have been a student of the 10mm since the Bren Ten was on the cover of every gun rag in the early 80's.

As has been stated, the 10mm is almost a ballistic twin of the heaviest 357 mag loads. This leaves it far short of the capabilities of the 41 Magnum. If you want 41 magnum performance out of a .401 projectile, look to the 10mm magnum, brass available from Starline. Your Smith 610 can be rechambered to 10mm magnum.

Also, as has been stated, you can put out a bunch more lead without reloading using a hi-capacity 10mm. And, I doubt most critters, two legged or four, are going to want to hang out and debate the difference in terminal ballistics between a 200 gr JHP 10mm at 1250 fps (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=40), or a 200 gr WFNGC 10mm at 1300 fps (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=105), or a 230 gr WFNGC 10mm at 1120 fps (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158) versus any 41 magnum load in similar weights.

"Originally, NORMA loaded their 200gr.(grain) bullet at 1200fps (feet per second) and the 170gr. bullet at 1400fps." (http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm01.html)

The original Norma loads were very hot for the guns of the day. In modern 10mm auto's with properly supported chambers, and appropriate mainsprings and recoil springs, you can expect a long service life, even with full power loads. Today's full power loads slightly exceed the loads Norma created in the '80's, without exceeding SAAMI spec.

The 10mm Auto brings a true magnum cartridge to the auto-loading handgun mainstream. It falls short of the 41 magnum, but leaves the 357 mag struggling to keep up.

I agree with dougader - I need that first shot to count. But, I think I am most likely to make that first shot if I take it with the gun I routinely carry and shoot. Therefore, for my needs, the 10mm is the perfect 'jack of all trades'.

[lwknight]

The downside of the 10mm and a lot of other cartriges is that run of the mill ammo has been downgraged in the last years. The regular sporting goods off the shelf 10mm is barely more than the 40 SW. You have to check the ballistics on the individual ammo to get full power ammo.

[Bucks Owin]

A Glock full of 10mm ammo is pretty formidable medicine. I'd probably as soon have my G20 in bad bear country as my .454 Freedom. A hailstorm of 200 gr. FMJ at 1200 fps. will make most anything uncomfortable. And since I figure if a bear jumps me, some of my shots may be ill aimed[smilie=1:. :mrgreen: I'd rather get in one good hit with the .454 (or .41 mag) than a "hailstorm" of 10mm, (likely to only PO said bad bruin :shock: ) any time!...JMO, Dennis :brokenima (Always wanted to use that smiley! :lol: )

[mpmarty]

I would hope my first shot at an angry bruin would not come from a handgun of any caliber. An ounce or so of lead at 1200fps or more is what I'd want to send on its merry way. 12ga slug, 45/70 etc. would be my choice of a self defense against angry smokeys in ranger hats.

[fredj338]

Perhaps you can point out the warm-blooded critter that will be able to tell the difference in the 2?
Then we could do the math on the difference in a cylinder full of .41 Mag vs. a mag full of 10MM?
And you can get 200 grainers to go close to 1300 in a 6" bbl. There are 6" bbls available for the Glock 20.
Cheers! :drinks:
Since you do not empty a mag or cyl into an animal, total ft#s or what ever matter little. Yes, you can get a 6"bbl for the G20 then again, a 6" 41mag pushes them faster still. Go ahead, believe your 10mm is a death ray, but those of us that shoot both no the diff.:groner:
FWIW, no, you can not get to 1300fps w/ a 200gr in a 6"bbl w/o bendng something. Yet a 220gr @ 1300fps is quite easily done in the 41mag. Don't get me wrong, I like the 10mm, probably one of the first to reload for it, but it's NOT a 41mag, not even close when both are loaded to safe max pressures.

[sqlbullet]

Let me start by saying that I agree with fredj338, and others who have stated the fact...The 10mm auto is no 41 magnum.

However, to this statement:


FWIW, no, you can not get to 1300fps w/ a 200gr in a 6"bbl w/o bendng something

I politely resubmit the previous link to the Double Tap 200 gr WFNGC (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=105). I have neither chrono'd or shot this load, but I would bet Mr McNett of Double Tap didn't post those numbers without some testing, both to stand behind the advertised speed, and to validate they are within SAAMI spec.

Now, you may be right...I probably can't duplicate that on my bench at home safely. Not sure. Not gonna try.

No gun is a death ray. Efficacy is dependent on the skill of the user. I choose one gun, 10mm, and then practice exclusively with that gun to ensure I have the needed skill.

[BLTsandwedge]

"It really comes down to whether you want a revolver or semi-auto. If you want a revolver, there's almost no reason whatsoever to choose a 10mm."

I think you're right Yondering, but I'll modify your statement just a smidge. I'll let it read "...almost no practical reason...." I poke holes in paper for entertainment- just about as pragmatic a passtime as my golf game. When I considered buying the 610 I did compare it to a .41. But I guess my decision to go with the 610 was nothing more than personal preference. There's no sustainable arguement I could make in favor of a 10mm over a .41. There's no sustainable arguement I could make in favor of playing golf either...........

Tom

[HammerMTB]

Since you do not empty a mag or cyl into an animal, total ft#s or what ever matter little. Yes, you can get a 6"bbl for the G20 then again, a 6" 41mag pushes them faster still. Go ahead, believe your 10mm is a death ray, but those of us that shoot both no the diff.:groner:
FWIW, no, you can not get to 1300fps w/ a 200gr in a 6"bbl w/o bendng something. Yet a 220gr @ 1300fps is quite easily done in the 41mag. Don't get me wrong, I like the 10mm, probably one of the first to reload for it, but it's NOT a 41mag, not even close when both are loaded to safe max pressures.


Since the array of possible threats may be from 1 to many, the # of rounds available is very pertinent. The speed with which the arm may be reloaded is also important.
I see you were not willing to name something that might be able to tell the difference between a .41 and a 10MM in terminal ballistics. No surprise to me..... :roll:

I see your skills at reading my post may need some honing as well. I said you could get NEAR 1300fps with a 200 gr boolit. Here's (http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/POWER-PISTOL-LOADS-t44346.html) some ballistics to prove it.

No, it's not a .41 Mag. It doesn't need or want to be. It's significantly more than that as a defense round. Take a look around and see who carries each as a defense round.

[sqlbullet]

The local advice is to avoid bears if possible. Since bears will shy away from humans, the forest rangers suggest you wear small bells on your hiking gear that will jingle, giving the bear plenty of time to clear the area ahead of you. They also suggest you carry pepper spray as a deterrent if you do meet a bear.

Finally, be able to recognize bear scat. It smells like pepper and has little bells in it.

(sorry, couldn't resist bringing some levity back.)

[mike in co]

Since the array of possible threats may be from 1 to many, the # of rounds available is very pertinent. The speed with which the arm may be reloaded is also important.
I see you were not willing to name something that might be able to tell the difference between a .41 and a 10MM in terminal ballistics. No surprise to me..... :roll:

I see your skills at reading my post may need some honing as well. I said you could get NEAR 1300fps with a 200 gr boolit. Here's (http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/POWER-PISTOL-LOADS-t44346.html) some ballistics to prove it.

No, it's not a .41 Mag. It doesn't need or want to be. It's significantly more than that as a defense round. Take a look around and see who carries each as a defense round.

but you guys are way off topic...he specified REVOLVER in each....

[mike in co]

The local advice is to avoid bears if possible. Since bears will shy away from humans, the forest rangers suggest you wear small bells on your hiking gear that will jingle, giving the bear plenty of time to clear the area ahead of you. They also suggest you carry pepper spray as a deterrent if you do meet a bear.

Finally, be able to recognize bear scat. It smells like pepper and has little bells in it.

(sorry, couldn't resist bringing some levity back.)



you are sick...lol

[yondering]

but you guys are way off topic...he specified REVOLVER in each....

I think that question's already been answered, pretty solidly. Same debate as whether to have a .357 or a 9mm in a revolver. :roll:

[fredj338]

Since the array of possible threats may be from 1 to many, the # of rounds available is very pertinent. The speed with which the arm may be reloaded is also important.
I see you were not willing to name something that might be able to tell the difference between a .41 and a 10MM in terminal ballistics. No surprise to me..... :roll:

I see your skills at reading my post may need some honing as well. I said you could get NEAR 1300fps with a 200 gr boolit. Here's (http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/POWER-PISTOL-LOADS-t44346.html) some ballistics to prove it.

No, it's not a .41 Mag. It doesn't need or want to be. It's significantly more than that as a defense round. Take a look around and see who carries each as a defense round.
We are talking big, dangerous game, not a hoard of zombies. I can assure you that a 41mag loaded w/ heavy LFP penetrates further than a 10mm, been there & done that. If the 10mm makes you feel invincible, so be it. I know better. Service cartridges are just that & magnum rev. are certainly a step up if you can shoot them. Not recognizing that only tells me you don't shoot them or you would know.:coffee: Nothing wrong w/ my reading skills, I just doubt the validity of your claim. Loading & shooting for both calibers I DO KNOW. Thanks or your insiteful input though.:roll: You can get close to 1300fps w/ 6"bbl & heavy, probably unsafe loads., sure, maybe in the right gun. Then yo ucan put up even more insane loads in a 41mag too, so what is the point exactly?

[ReloaderFred]

I have several 10mm pistols, one Model 610 revolver, and my duty gun for about 20 years of my career was a 6" Model 57, .41 Magnum revolver. I have a lot of experience with these two calibers and handguns. I also have three Marlin carbines in .41 Magnum.

The .41 Magnum is clearly more powerful than the 10mm. Both calibers tend to be very accurate, with the proper loads. My 610 revolver is much more accurate than either of my Colt Delta Elites, or several Witnesses in 10mm. It's just the nature of the beast. My Model 57 is also very accurate.

I live in bear country and have them in my yard at night. We can't put the trash out until just before the trash truck gets there. My wife and I have also had encounters with bears that had no fear of human beings, probably because some fool was feeding them. A bear without fear of humans is a dangerous bear, period.

I've carried both 10mm and .41 Magnum while walking the dogs in the woods behind our house. I've also seen a medium size black bear killed by a 9mm, with 147 gr. Black Talons in it. Two rounds were required to kill that bear, but the discussion concerning bears is off topic.....

The simple question from the OP was what is the difference? The difference is the .41 is more powerful than the 10mm.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[lwknight]

I can not see any logic in having a 10mm revolver. The good ammo is no more plentiful than 41 magnum. Plus you have to mess with moon clips.

[softpoint]

Interesting...If I had neither revolver, I''d pick a 41 every time. But, since I have .454, 44, etc. for heavy stuff, and I have a Kimber and a Glock in 10mm, I'd kinda' like to have a 10mm revolver for those days I don't want to pick up brass. Plus I already have a Dillon conversion set up for 10mm. Convenience would be the decisive factor here, rather than which one has the edge in power. :-)

[missionary5155]

Good evening
I have been shooting 41 mags for over 25 years. The .41 will do anything a .44 (really .43)mag will do -5% so lets compare a 10mm to the real 41 mag... not the wimpy 210 loadings the factories churn out.
Start stuffing a 265 gr GC into a 41 mag with all the powder a Dan wesson can handle & there is NO... repeat NO 10 mike mike out there gonna come close.
And if we have to stick to 210 grainers... then fit 21.6 grains of 296 into a 10mm case and pull the trigger. That was my 1983 steel load in my DAN that won AAA class Revolver in ILL. Fired well over 1000 rounds of that in 4 months.. my dan is still as accurate as ever. What do you think a 10mm would look like.
And my Rugers (especially the Bisley) are not far behind on diet.
So please... come on fellers... the 10 mike mike is a great caliber... BUT NEVER compare apples to plums.

[HammerMTB]

We are talking big, dangerous game, not a hoard of zombies. I can assure you that a 41mag loaded w/ heavy LFP penetrates further than a 10mm, been there & done that. If the 10mm makes you feel invincible, so be it. I know better. Service cartridges are just that & magnum rev. are certainly a step up if you can shoot them. Not recognizing that only tells me you don't shoot them or you would know.:coffee: Nothing wrong w/ my reading skills, I just doubt the validity of your claim. Loading & shooting for both calibers I DO KNOW. Thanks or your insiteful input though.:roll: You can get close to 1300fps w/ 6"bbl & heavy, probably unsafe loads., sure, maybe in the right gun. Then you can put up even more insane loads in a 41mag too, so what is the point exactly?

Your passion for overstatement makes it clear you'd like to win an argument with hyperbole and innuendo, not facts.
I don't recall bringing zombies into this- you did.
I don't recall bringing death rays into this- you did.
I don't don't recall pronouncing anything or anyone invincible- you brought that up.
There's plenty in there you are wrong about.
I do load for magnum revolver, and shoot them often.
Whether 10MM or .41 Mag penetrates further was never in question in my mind. Apparently you are fixated on penetration. :razz:
You still don't want to point to something that can tell the difference in power between the 2. We know why that is, now don't we? [smilie=s:
Try your reading skills some more. The 1250+fps 200 grainers in the 6" bbl 10MM weren't unsafe. But since that takes away from your argument you don't want to touch that, eh? :veryconfu

Good point at the end, tho. What is your point, exactly? Each caliber has its strong points. If it had none, why would you own it?
I have a preference. I've made it clear. That's been enough for me- why do you carry on?
Hope to convince me to abandon a 10MM for a .41? Are you holding your breath? :oops:

[fredj338]

Your passion for overstatement makes it clear you'd like to win an argument with hyperbole and innuendo, not facts.
I don't recall bringing zombies into this- you did.
I don't recall bringing death rays into this- you did.
I don't don't recall pronouncing anything or anyone invincible- you brought that up.
There's plenty in there you are wrong about.
I do load for magnum revolver, and shoot them often.
Whether 10MM or .41 Mag penetrates further was never in question in my mind. Apparently you are fixated on penetration. :razz:
You still don't want to point to something that can tell the difference in power between the 2. We know why that is, now don't we? [smilie=s:
Try your reading skills some more. The 1250+fps 200 grainers in the 6" bbl 10MM weren't unsafe. But since that takes away from your argument you don't want to touch that, eh? :veryconfu

Good point at the end, tho. What is your point, exactly? Each caliber has its strong points. If it had none, why would you own it?
I have a preference. I've made it clear. That's been enough for me- why do you carry on?
Hope to convince me to abandon a 10MM for a .41? Are you holding your breath? :oops:
Not at all. AS I said, but apparently your reading skills also need work, I own, load & shoot the 10mm. It' just not a 41mag. Saying it's close is like saying the 40 is close to the 10mm because it will get wiithin 150fps w/ same bullet wts. It's just your argument that one is equal to the other because it is close, is just weak.

.41 Mag wheel gun= 6 rounds and reload
10MM auto pistol, mags vary, but my Glock 20=15+1 up the pipe
Lotta firepower
The .41 has a slight ballistic advantage, as noted above. I doubt anything you'd shoot a slug into would be able to tell the difference....
You brought up the seniauto, only needed for multiple two legged vermin or zombie attacks. I also did answer about what targets could tell the diff. & that is because of the increased energy & penetration. The larger/tougher the target, the bigger/heavier the bullet. A 10mm would be fine for deer & hogs, maybe smaller black bear in close but game going over 500#, the heavy 41mag wins that one easily. All the other things you talk about, speed of reloading, number of rounds, etc. have nothing to do with the original question by the OP. As always, JMO.[smilie=f:

[HammerMTB]

Not at all. AS I said, but apparently your reading skills also need work, I own, load & shoot the 10mm. It' just not a 41mag. Saying it's close is like saying the 40 is close to the 10mm because it will get within 150fps w/ same bullet wts. It's just your argument that one is equal to the other because it is close, is just weak.

You brought up the semiauto, only needed for multiple two legged vermin or zombie attacks. I also did answer about what targets could tell the diff. & that is because of the increased energy & penetration. The larger/tougher the target, the bigger/heavier the bullet. A 10mm would be fine for deer & hogs, maybe smaller black bear in close but game going over 500#, the heavy 41mag wins that one easily. All the other things you talk about, speed of reloading, number of rounds, etc. have nothing to do with the original question by the OP. As always, JMO.[smilie=f:

I don't recall denying you have or fuss with a 10MM. Want to point out where I did and someone's reading skills are in error? The 10MM is a superior caliber in a semi-auto. That's not equal. Why would I bring a semi-auto into this? Because a 10MM in a wheelgun is ridiculous, that's why. I don't deny that it can and has been done, it's just one of those answers without a question.

I don't recall you pointing out which animals could tell the difference before the quote just above. Are you making yourself out a liar, or just a story-magnifier? Nice try on the hyperbole and innuendo, but lacking in any quantifiable facts.
If you read...
back to my first post, I said from the start that the .41 had a slight ballistic advantage. It's not that much, and I'm glad you agree. The .40 Short and Weak is behind the 10MM, but there's always going to be comparisons between the 2. And if you want to try out some hyperbole and innuendo, they are quite close together when comparing a 17HMR with a 460 Weatherby Mag. :mrgreen:

I contend that a dead animal is dead, and won't be able to tell the difference in a 10MM or a .41 Mag. Either way is dead. Yep, right up to griz, polar bear, and moose.
Want to take on elephant or cape Buffalo with your .41? Have someone take a vid and post it in your absence, wouldja? :roll:
Who else thinks a 10MM will do the job on those griz, brownies, and moose?
Well, the Alaska State Troopers. They choose the 10MM, not the .41 Mag. Hmmmm [smilie=1:
Who thinks it's enough for polar bear?
The Icelandic military that patrol Greenland for months on end. They come across polar bears. They choose the 10MM. They don't carry .41 Mags. Hmmmm

I only have one suggestion for ya:
If you think the hole you dug is deep enough, put the shovel down. :-D
Cheers! :drinks:

[sargenv]

Man, I leave the thread for a day or two and it gets down to zombies? :D

Tis true that the 41 is the higher powered handgun.. but I don't mess with any large revolver with anything smaller than a 6.5" tube.. the 235's I cranked to 1315 fps was out of a 7.5" tube. It's been years since I tried anything heavy in any of my 610's since I use them mainly for USPSA revolver division. Stuff that heavy is not needed. I played around with 220 gr plated stuff and was sorely disappointed with it's lack of accuracy. I have however cranked up 140's to nearly 1300 fps when I was pushing a light bullet to major power factor.. yeah I know about half that of what the 41 mag will do.. it was mostly to use up inexpensive bullets and make major pf.

I may one day think about cranking up the 10 mm, but for now I'm happy shooting 40 short & weak's at minor.. less wear and tear on the wrists..

I did load up 50 - 235's and 50 - 210 JHP's for the 41 magnum I own. I think I've fired about 20 of each to demonstrate the difference between it and the competition loads I use.. I really don't have a need for something with that much power at this point. I like both cartridges since they are kind of oddballs.. I won the 657 at the IRC a couple years ago.. it was my second revolver won in the years I've been shooting that match.. and no one seemed to want it.. so I grabbed it. Not bad for placing in the 60's out of about 200 shooters :) I've been shooting the 610-2 for over 10 years and with the S&W ammo, it is very nice to shoot.. hardly any recoil with my minor load.

[fredj338]

Want to take on elephant or cape Buffalo with your .41? Have someone take a vid and post it in your absence, wouldja? :roll:
Who else thinks a 10MM will do the job on those griz, brownies, and moose?
Well, the Alaska State Troopers. They choose the 10MM, not the .41 Mag. Hmmmm [smilie=1:
Who thinks it's enough for polar bear?
The Icelandic military that patrol Greenland for months on end. They come across polar bears. They choose the 10MM. They don't carry .41 Mags. Hmmmm

I only have one suggestion for ya:
If you think the hole you dug is deep enough, put the shovel down. :-D
Cheers! :drinks:
No, I am smart enough to hunt dg w/ a suitable rifle thank you. At least I do have some dg experience I am betting maybe you don't? The fact that some Alaska LE carry 10mm is probably due more to having to face armed people than big bears. In the event of a big bear, yes a 10mm would be better than a 9mm or 40 or 45. I'll bet though that those troppers do NOT carry heavy solids in their 10mm either, which is what you need to defeat hide & heavy muscle. They are for people stopping not bear stopping. Any Alaska LEO worth his badge will be pulling out the 12ga w/ slugs for the big bears.
Besides hammer, regardless of whether you think a 10mm in a rev. is moot, that is what the OP asked originally. You again, seemed to miss that & went off on mag cap, easy reloading, blah, blah, blah. Ok, I'm done beating this very dead horse, unless you would like to shoot it w/ your 10mm.[smilie=f:

[HammerMTB]

Ok, I'm done beating this very dead horse, unless you would like to shoot it w/ your 10mm.[smilie=f:

Ah, the words I long to hear! He puts away his shovel!
The hole you dug was deep enough, fred! [smilie=w:

[Kuato]

Plain and simple guys, the 41 IS a revolver cartridge & the 10MM IS a pistol cartridge. Cant really compare the two as a revolver round. The 41 wins hands down if you want to carry 4 1/2 pounds of steel on your hip.

I've seen 220gr CAST loads for the 10mm hit 1300 + fps. Most of the data for the 10 is jacketed & all the practical data for the 41 is LEAD. Too many variables to compare the two.

Is the 41 Mag a fantastic round? Yes. Is the 10MM a fantastic round? Yes..
Is either cartridge popular? NO! That's why the 41 mag guys get steamed & the 10MM guys get steamed when they get told the 41 is "better". Better for what? Both rounds were made for different purposes .. I promise you guys this, If a hood gets shot with either round, he'll be quietly tucked away in the hurt locker for sure..

[MakeMineA10mm]

Sorry to dredge this thread up, but I somehow missed it back in December. (I was on vacation, what can I say??) :mrgreen:

As far as the original question about differences in a revolver, I'd throw in two things that no one seems to have mentioned:

1. The 10mm CAN be fitted into a smaller framed revolver than the 41. I've seen L-Frames and GP-100s converted to 10mm. Can't quite (safely) squeeze a 41 into that size package, unless you go down to the custom 41 SPECIAL. And I believe ballistics between the 41 Spl. and 10mm would be nearly identical.

2. The 10mm has the benefit of moon clips for loading. I know one CAN get a moon clip conversion for any caliber, including the traditional rimmed revolver cartridges, but the 10mms come that way from the factory.


Now, as far as a couple questions that have come up in this thread:

1. Norma's original TWO loadings were: a 200gr FMJ-TC @ 1200fps AND a 170gr (actual weight on pulled bullets was 165-167grs) at 1350 to 1400fps (advertised and actual velocities fluctuated that 50fps over the first couple-three years).

2. The 41 Magnum was conceptualized by Bill Jordan, Elmer Keith, and Skeeter Skelton to be the ultimate police officer revolver cartridge, giving an "ideal" combination of power vs. recoil. Those three gents wanted a 200gr 41-cal. bullet at 1200 fps. The factories SCREWED IT UP! All the marketing types wanted a higher-powered round that would satisfy hunters (and don't forget the insatiable demand for 44s back in the 60s and 70s which the factories wanted to ride the coat tails of...). The 10mm CORRECTED this mistake, and put the IDEAL CONCEPT round in a semi-auto pistol, RIGHT at the time that police agencies were looking to convert from revolvers to semi-autos. If only D&D had made the Bren Ten more commercially viable, they may have taken the LE world by storm. A mere two years after they closed their doors, the FBI shoot-out in Miami happened and the FBI adopted the 10mm! (Oh, the barely missed chances of unfortunate timing...) Of course, then came plastic pistols and "acceptable" performance in a shorter package (40S&W) and the ideal ballistics of Keith/Skelton/Jordan went out the window... Now, the 10mm is a cartridge most appreciated by people who understand the concept and can handle the size and recoil of the guns.


As far as this big argument about the 10mm and 41 power level goes, I'd say that it's difficult to compare apples to apples since one is primarily a revolver round and the other is primarily a semi-auto round. (I bet there's been more revolvers made in 10mm than semi-autos in 41Mag, though...) The fact of the matter is, when one takes into account bore size, bullet weight, energy developed, and velocity obtained (and most other theories used in guns), the 10mm turns out to be in-between the 357 Mag and the 41 Mag.

The loads in 357 that people say make the 357 comparable to the 10mm are just as unusual and specialized as the 10mm loads that people are trying to use to compare the 10mm to being equal to the 41 Mag. Fact of the matter is, a run-of-the-mill high-pressure 41 mag load will, on average, always beat the 10mm by a moderate margin. Likewise, the run-of-the-mill high-pressure 10mm load (Win. Silvertip, Double-Tap, Buffalo Bore, or equivalent handloads) will beat the run-of-the-mill 357 load by a moderate margin. Think of the clear difference between the 357 and 41 Magnums, and the 10mm fits right in that gap.

While you can tell by name I'm a 10mm fan, for carrying out in the woods, I'm all over the 44s... :mrgreen: 10mm is ideal anti-human-predatory medicine. I'll take a 44 for use in the field against 4-legged critters, both out of a sense of sportsmanship and self-preservation! [smilie=1:

[sheepdog]

Or you could get an old Tokarev and push a tiny 30 cal at the speed of light ;) with a 223 sabot you can break 2k fps. http://www.ammo-one.com/223Timbs.html

[yondering]

Or you could get an old Tokarev and push a tiny 30 cal at the speed of light ;) with a 223 sabot you can break 2k fps. http://www.ammo-one.com/223Timbs.html

Or use the 10mm necked down to the 9x25 Dillon. ~2K fps with 95gr 9mm bullets. :Fire: http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_24&products_id=47

Kind of a whole different thing than a 10mm as it was meant to be though...

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, being a 10mm guy, I can't go with the Tokarev. (I've got a broomhandle, which is nearly the same thing - same cartridge, just loaded at a lower pressure.)

I'd prefer the 30 Armco, loaded with 224" bullets in sabots. 30 Armco is the 10mm necked down to 308" caliber. This is a larger-boiler-room cartridge than the Tok, and would probably out-perform it. (Though I've never tried it yet...) :mrgreen:

[Ole]

I'm not knocking 10mm (I proudly own one *SW1076 FBI*), but it's not in the same power class as a .41 Mag.

You can load heavy cast bullets all the way up to 300 grains in 41 mag.

You can't do that in a 10mm.

[truckmsl]

sheeesh - I never thought about using the internet to argue with people - I thought that's what wives were for!

[Onty]

.41 Mag wheel gun= 6 rounds and reload
10MM auto pistol, mags vary, but my Glock 20=15+1 up the pipe
Lotta firepower
The .41 has a slight ballistic advantage, as noted above. I doubt anything you'd shoot a slug into would be able to tell the difference.... :shock:

I think that properly loaded 41 (loads over SAAMI spec; no thanks) has bit more to offer than "slight ballistic advantage" over 10 MM;

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/41magnum.htm
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/41heavy.htm
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[HammerMTB]

I think that properly loaded 41 (loads over SAAMI spec; no thanks) has bit more to offer than "slight ballistic advantage" over 10 MM;



Yawn....
Yer nearly a month late....
You might want to start a NEW dissention, not bring an old beaten horse back from the dead.

[gunfan]

I shoot both cartridges. The .41 Remington Magnum is clearly the more powerful of the two cartridges. The 10mm can be loaded to mid-range .41 Remington Magnum levels. However, the .41 Magnum can (and does) drive heavier bullets to higher velocities.

Such is life.

Scott

[9.3X62AL]

I really like the 10mm--I wish my old agency authorized it for carry. My thoughts on the 41 Mag/10mm comparison is that there is none, really. The 10mm bridges whatever gap exists in the minds of users between the 357 Magnum and 41 Magnum revolver rounds. That is no mean feat for a recoil-operated semi-auto pistol system.

The most-blooded deer rifle in my safe is the 1873 Winchester in 44-40 WCF (mfg. 1897) that has collected many dozens of deer during its service life as a ranch rifle, and at least two black bears that my grandmother saw getting kanked. From its 19" barrel, its 200 grain bullets did and do well to achieve 1250 FPS. My S&W Model 1026 in 10mm can run 200 grain boolits with better sectional density to 1200 FPS without strain. It may not be the equal of the 41 Magnum, but it is no slouch in the game fields either. In deer areas where lead boolits are kosher in CA, the 10mm loaded with Bruce B softpoints has sought out venison with me, so far to no avail. It will happen, though.

[theperfessor]

Wow, nothing like reviving a two year old thread...

[Bigslug]

Since it sounds like you're looking to purchase a revolver for one or the other. . .

. . .and with this being a casting forum. . .

. . .you're going to be better served with a .41.

You won't have to deal with moon clips on a .41, there seem to be more and sexier molds for it (i.e. the Keith 220's), and, as already stated, the round simply has more chutzpah.

I LIKE my 10mm and like it a lot. The notion of an almost .41 holding 15 rounds has definite appeal - especially for someone like a mountain state cop who might have to deal with a drug dealer one minute and a grizzly bear the next.

I figure if you've already got a 10mm auto, there might be something to be said for a wheelie in the same caliber, but I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a stand-alone revolver so chambered.

[9.3X62AL]

That is a well thought-out response, BigSlug.

The Glock 20 is one fine combination. I can't think of a better carry gun for a game warden or rural-area sheriff's deputy. I also have a very nice S&W Model 657 x 6" that was worked over by Cheshire & Perez prior to my purchase. What a NICE WHEELGUN. It goes with with me to the local condor-cuddling deer zone where unleaded ammo is de rigeur, 180 grain Barnes coppers at 1450 FPS getting the nod. Accurate and flat-shooting as can be to 50 yards.

For a hunting gun, the 41 Mag revos are a more powerful and more flexible option. For social events or mixed business, the 10mm seems a better option, and the Glocks the most available platforms.

[fcvan]

I've been shooting 41 since the 70s and my M57 is 8 3/8". I bought a Marlin 1894 in 41 and it's a great shooter. I never got into the 10mm mindset until recently. Although I don't yet own or shoot this cartridge I am giving it serious consideration. I have a friend with a Delta which would be sweet. Ted Nugent swears by his Glock 10mm and the ammo he markets is reportedly potent stuff. I for one would be hand loading rather than buying factory.

The topic of this thread was revolver vs revolver. 20+ years ago, Ruger made a convertible BlackHawk with two cylinders, 10mm and 38-40. I even have a Guns and Ammo article talking about that gun. 10mm can be warmed up in a stout revolver like the Ruger. Also, the 38-40 can be warmed up (and has been) to 41 performance. When loading for a strong revolver you dont have to worry as much about springs and slide velocity.

I think it comes down to case volume. The 41 has more volume that the 10mm, albeit not by much. Someone mentioned rechambering a revolver for 10mm mag which would close the gap so to speak. I have a Vaquero in 38-40 with a 40 S&W cylinder. I could rechamber for 10mm or 10mm mag. At this point I'm thinking more of getting an additional cylinder and having it chambered in 10mm and keep the 40 S&W cylinder. I would also seriously consider getting the Glock because I like them, but wouldn't shy away from a Delta if a good deal came along. Frank

[jdgabbard]

Wow, nothing like reviving a two year old thread...

My thoughts exactly.... Isn't this the same argument as a 40 v. 45?!?!?!?! Enough already.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess i think a bit differnt. I like moon clip guns. There fast to reload. Carrying extra ammo is easy and picking up brass in clips of 6 is nicer then picking them up individualy. I can go to the range with 50 of them loaded and shoot them up and take them home to deal with unclipping them. My thoughts toward power are this. Most here shoot cast. I know i do. Most who shoot cast usuually dont push there loads much over 1200 fps anyway. Most of my 41 mag ammo is loaded with 200-220 grain cast at between a 1000 and 1200 fps. A glock 20 or a smith 610 will easily shoot 200 grain cast bullets at 1200 fps so yes although the 41 is capable of more power at least at my house is seldom loaded that way. Im a revolver guy but will be the first to say that in self defense mag capasity means something. If it didnt police depts would still be using 357 revolvers.
I can not see any logic in having a 10mm revolver. The good ammo is no more plentiful than 41 magnum. Plus you have to mess with moon clips.

[Lloyd Smale]

I chuckle as ive seen more then once when a question was asked someone kind of rudely suggesting using the search button. Nothing wrong with reviving an old thread. New guys come here all the time that never saw the post.
Wow, nothing like reviving a two year old thread...

[Gibson]

[With respect to velocity] Two .357s come to my mind that could safely leave a 10mm dead with 200 gr. slugs. But the .357 ain't in the runnin', here.

To wit:

FA 353
RH .357

[Adam10mm]

The .357 Mag and 10mm are ballistic twins from equal barrels. Neither is comparable to a .41 Magnum.

[Gibson]

The RH or the FA 353 will destroy the 10mm velocity wise. You can load either to unbelievable pressures quite safely.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/PB140002.JPG

http://www.rockislandauction.com/photos/53/p_standard/WTG115-H-F1B-H.jpg

Chop 'em to equitable length, ~5", and load them up. They are NOT the run of the mill .357.

The 10mm will be in pieces if it tries to run with them vis-a-vis velocity with a 200 gr. projectile.

And I have one inbound, a G20, but no sense in deluding myself. However, I mostly agree (not totally) with good solid .357 mags, but not these animals.

[Adam10mm]

Exceeding SAAMI MAP, yes. Staying within SAAMI MAP, they are ballistic twins. I think when 99% of shooters discuss ammunition performance, even handloads, the discussion is held to SAAMI MAP.

[Gibson]

99% of shooters were not at issue. I specifically posted that those two firearms popped into my mind, as to "357s" that can take extreme pressure.

My post CLEARLY states the two firearms I am discussing. Both are nominally .357 magnums and both are exceedingly overbuilt.

SAAMI MAP is meaningless when discussing the FA 353, it's downright silly. Anyone who discusses the FA 353 as if it is imperative to talk only in terms of SAAMI then they are just blowing smoke, for internet or print. They de facto know that it is silly.

However, both handguns were available commercially.

[Edit: The FA 353 will outrun the cartridge; the RH is not too far behind. The guns are both built to SAFELY achieve FAR greater pressures than SAAMI lists, for say a 586/686. The End.]

[Adam10mm]

You miss the entire point. I'm done talking to a brick wall.

[gofastman]

round for round, the .41 has a significant ballistic advantage, its fact.
that said the 10mm is sooooooo much better (opinion :grin:)

[Gibson]

You miss the entire point. I'm done talking to a brick wall.

Yeah. That's why I typed "but the .357. . ." My post was just a simple observation that popped into my head. But then again, I've typed that about three times now.

I thought of a couple of commercially sold (in the past) .357s that will safely and easily out run the 10mm with handloads. This site is kind of, sort of, maybe directed toward handloaders. Ergo, . . .

But you are correct, typing to STOP signs is dumb. Talking to them is more dumb

[rbuck351]

Since my last post of about a year ago I have aquired some 270gr home made jacketed bullets that I'm getting 1200fps from my BH 41mag. As I live, hunt and fish in Ak, I want a bullet that I think has a good chance of penetrating the frontal armor of a ticked off brown bear. I think this combo will work. I have little confidence in the 10mm at it's best. You HAVE to break bones to stop a brown bear charge. Stinging him with 20 rounds that fail to break bones will make him so mad he will kill you before he dies. A single round that gets through the skull hits the spine or breaks a front shoulder can save your butt. A multitude of bullets that don't break down the bear will get you hurt. IMO the 41Mag heavily loaded is minimal for big bear defence and bigger would be better if you can shoot it well. The 10mm should work well for black bear but a 600/800lb browie is a whole new can of worms. Fortunately, few of us will ever have to find out whether our chosen hand gun is enough as bear attacks are very rare. In an all out brown bear attack you will probably be lucky to draw and get off one shot let alone several and a reload will not be happening.

[pmer]

200 grain .41 boolit at 1400 FPS has a Taylor KO of 16

270 grain .41 boolit at 1200 FPS has a Taylor KO of 18

240 grain .429 boolit at 1400 is the 20 TKO

I bet that 270 .41 boolit would be a good stopper. They all are better than nuttin.

[10x]

From a practical point of view, what is the primary difference, if any, between the ballistic performance of a 41 Magnum and a 10mm revolver? Obviously the 10mm would have to use moon clips and would fire a slightly smaller diameter bullet but... Beyond that is there any significant difference between these two?

From a practical point of view if you are shooting targets it doesn't much matter to the paper, it will punch a hole.
From a hunting point of view a flat point bullet from either will preform the same on game and will take a deer if you 1) get close enough and 2) place your shot well.
From a self defense point of view a perp can not tell the difference between a .41 caliber hole and a 10mm caliber hole. Both calibers will cause long term grief and agony, if not very quick death to an attacker in a self defense situation if the bullet hits anything vital or a bone.

I would pick the gun I am most comfortable shooting. There is no magic to the 10 mm bullet , nor is there magic in a .41 caliber bullet. Both will do the same job - poke a hole where you want it poked - if you do your part.

[mpmarty]

Then again there is the personal preference thing. I own and shoot three 10mm pistols all from Tanfoglio and all steel. No polymer pistols for me thanks. The hot 200gr loads with AA-9 work fine and burn clean. Sixteen rounds on tap from the holster is a good thing too.

[Any Cal.]

Platform matters, as it can affect draw time and time to first/second shot. I personally think the ten has some points in its favor, but would skip right over anything less than a forty-four once you move into large frame revo territory. In a gun the size of a service pistol, you are never going to have incredible ballistics, so the ten doesn't lag too far behind.

[ironjaw]

have a mdl 57 8.3/8. shoot cast 220 grn . hard . it is a great gun, but the glock 20 is in my future.
anyone have sucess in sizing 410 down to.400 ?? have 4 moulds in .410, one is an old rnd nose colt and it is great @ 1100 fps. i even crimped the bottom and used g.c's. just to see.
hope this is not in wrong thread. new here

[jmort]

The 10mm is a good caliber but every 10mm thread seems to make the 10mm out to be more than it really is - it is slightly less gun than a .357. The .357 has more energy, better sectional density (180 grain .357 v 220 grain 10mm) and better penetration with a hard cast bullet. The .41 mag is in a different league, way more gun. As for the, "I've got so many more rounds to shoot at a bear," I would rather have one six foot long wound channel than 2 three foot long wound channels. How many rounds do you think you will get off if a bear charges you? If I'm in area where there are black bears then 10mm makes sense. If I'm in an area controlled by a MS 13 affiliate gang, then the 10mm makes sense. If I need something that will smoke some nasty beast, I would want more gun, something well north of 1,000 ft lbs.

[Sven]

Wow, this one's still going. . .

A critter -- two legged or four -- will probably not know the difference if it was shot with a .357, 10mm or .41 mag, if all three are using the same type of bullet, i.e. hollow point or hard cast.

It all boils down to whether you prefer to carry a revolver or semi-auto. I am starting to think I prefer the slimmer lines of a 1911 over a N frame S&W -- that's what my woods gun has been, a 629 Mountain Gun loaded with 210 gr Silvertips. That's why I bought a Delta Elite a while back. I'd suggest another comparison between a 200 gr 10mm at 1200 fps and the Silvertip load of 210 gr at 1250fps, but I don't want to be kicked off the board! :target_smiley:

[jmort]

^ You should try something like this
.41 Magnum Ammo - 265 gr. L.W.N. 1,350 fps/M.E. 1,072 ft. lbs
I like the STs but their velocity is less than advertised.

[Sven]

^ You should try something like this
.41 Magnum Ammo - 265 gr. L.W.N. 1,350 fps/M.E. 1,072 ft. lbs
I like the STs but their velocity is less than advertised.

I have a .44, not a .41. I hunt with a 300 gr. LWN at 1350 fps, but it is certianly not an every day carry load.8-)

[MikeS]

have a mdl 57 8.3/8. shoot cast 220 grn . hard . it is a great gun, but the glock 20 is in my future.
anyone have sucess in sizing 410 down to.400 ?? have 4 moulds in .410, one is an old rnd nose colt and it is great @ 1100 fps. i even crimped the bottom and used g.c's. just to see.
hope this is not in wrong thread. new here

I recently tried doing just that. I have a couple of .41 moulds and I just got a 400Corbon barrel for my 45. I had zero luck. Either I'm a lot weaker than I thought (a good possibility, getting old sucks) or my Lee press just doesn't have the mechanical advantage needed, but I tried sizing down from .411 to .401 using a Lee sizing die, and it just didn't happen. Maybe I need to fasten my press to the bench better, I have a Lee benchplate system, and rather than using thru bolts with nuts & washers I just used lag bolts from the top to mount the plate system. Normally I have no problem with this setup, but when trying to size the boolits it looked like the press was going to pull out of the bench! Maybe I could get a .406 sizing die, and do it in 2 passes?

[MikeS]

Not to upset any 41 fans, but can a 41mag be made in a smaller frame revolver than a 44mag? If not, then I personally don't see the need for the 41, but that's based on never having shot a 41mag, so I will say that my ideas are open to change if/when I do shoot one. Also, I don't currently own ANY magnum handguns, with my most powerful gun being a 45ACP.

[Elkins45]

Since it has been well (and correctly) decided that there's no advantage to 10mm over 41 mag in a revolver with perhaps the exception of faster reloads through moon clips, I will stipulate that and dive into the 10mm auto vs 41 mag revolver.

I wanted a bear gun--whether I NEEDED one is another story--- so I bought a S&W 329PD at considerable expense. That's a 44, so no question it's more powerful than a 41. Used, so it came without the advantage of a warranty. I loaded it with 300 grain FP loads as fast as the book allowed. Recoil was BRUTAL, but I expected that. What I didn't expect was the cylinder spinning and the internal lock engaging itself. Not really what you want when the bear is clawing your face off.

My new bear gun is a Glock 20SF loaded with the RCBS 200 FP in front of a max load of Blue Dot. I wanted to use AA#9 but I ran out of room in the case with the big bullet. I would rather have 16 functional rounds than six that might not work. The auto has proven itself vastly more reliable than the lightweight revolver.

[yondering]

I recently tried doing just that. I have a couple of .41 moulds and I just got a 400Corbon barrel for my 45. I had zero luck. Either I'm a lot weaker than I thought (a good possibility, getting old sucks) or my Lee press just doesn't have the mechanical advantage needed, but I tried sizing down from .411 to .401 using a Lee sizing die, and it just didn't happen. Maybe I need to fasten my press to the bench better, I have a Lee benchplate system, and rather than using thru bolts with nuts & washers I just used lag bolts from the top to mount the plate system. Normally I have no problem with this setup, but when trying to size the boolits it looked like the press was going to pull out of the bench! Maybe I could get a .406 sizing die, and do it in 2 passes?

Are you trying to size really hard bullets? If not, it shouldn't be that hard. It would probably help to polish the Lee sizing die; some of them are pretty rough inside and anything significantly oversized won't size down easily.

I do this too; another member here gave me a supply of 220gr 41 Magnum LFN bullets, that I size down to .401" and use in the 10mm. I'm just using a polished Lee sizing die in an old Lyman O-frame press; it doesn't take much more effort than just running 30-06 brass through a sizing die. These bullets are air cooled wheel weight.

[jmort]

"The auto has proven itself vastly more reliable than the lightweight auto."

Good thing those Glocks never Kaboom and an FTF will be "vastly" less of a problem in a semi-auto. Seriously though, where you are 700 to 750 ft lbs of energy should be enough.

[yondering]

The 10mm is a good caliber but ...- it is slightly less gun than a .357.

This is not at all true, unless you're either comparing watered down commercial 10mm loads to advertised .357 ballistics, or comparing a long barreled .357 to a 10mm service size pistol. If you compare full power 10mm out of a 4"-5" semi-auto pistol, to full power .357 from a similar size gun, the 10mm has a big advantage. Full power 10mm from a Glock 20 or good 1911 can do up to 900 ft-lb; try that with a similar sized .357.

[jmort]

"If you compare full power 10mm out of a 4"-5" semi-auto pistol, to full power .357 from a similar size gun, the 10mm has a big advantage."

No, sorry -
Since Buffalo Bore has proven to be accurate in their data I go by what they have:

10mm 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)
1. 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
2. 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5 inch barrel
3. 1201 fps - Para Ordinance 1911 with Nowlin 5 inch barrel

10mm 180 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,350fps/M.E. 728 ft. lbs.
1. 1311 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
2. 1337 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5 inch barrel
3. 1351 fps - Para Ordinance 1911 with Nowlin 5 inch barrel

Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)
4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
5 inch S&W model 27
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps

Now I have never seen a factory 10mm gun get 900 ft lbs. With Buffalo Bore .357 more gun, more energy, better sectional density, better penetration with same length barrels and as you can see a shorter S&W MT. Gun with 4" barrel is more gun than the longer barrel 10mm.

[Any Cal.]

4" Mtn gun is similar size to 6" G20, barrel length is measured differently so can not be compared straight across. 20 also weighs1/2lb or so less. Then you have a choice of 6 rds of a smaller bullet in a short sight radius with slower sights in a heavier gun, or more rds with a larger meplat in a lighter, faster, platform.

The best comparison between the two calibers is a 4" SP101 vs G20, even though it would technically have a bit more barrel, nothing else takes gun size into account. Arguing for larger guns is silly, because once you go larger than that there are much more capable calibers.

A 40+ oz gun can house most any caliber, not many choices at 30 oz.

[jmort]

There is no cylinder gap in the semi-auto so let's just go where the other post took us - and it was wrong. Put the .357 in a Coonan and you get even more juice as there is no cylinder gap. Look, the 10mm is a fine choice, let's just keep it real. The .357 has more energy, better sectional density, and better penetration. More gun.

[Gibson]

The original post posed the question about the ballistics of a 10mm versus a 41 magnum. That is easily answered. And has been. . .

He did not ask about gun weights he asked about ballistics for caliber. But there is NOTHING specifically about sight radius, relative weight, number of rounds, or speed of employment. Why? BECASE HE GOES ON TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT HE IS REFERRING TO BOTH ROUNDS BEING FIRED FROM A REVOLVER. His post title must be read to mean "the 10mm auto" as the 10mm semi-automatic ROUND.

"From a practical point of view, what is the primary difference, if any, between the ballistic performance of a 41 Magnum and a 10mm revolver? Obviously the 10mm would have to use moon clips and would fire a slightly smaller diameter bullet but... Beyond that is there any significant difference between these two?"

Hell, I even pointed out the RH and the FA353 were lowly .357 magnums that would easily surpass the 10mm ballistics. Larger bullet, larger meplat, better SD. Load the strongest 10mm pistol up to its top level; and then chop the barrels and do the same with those two. No contest.

I was subsequently informed of a fellow who has put well over 1k 255 gr. bullets downrange from his RH. The FA353 is even more of a hammer. But these are not run-of-the-mill .357s. They are EXCEEDINGLY well built revolvers. and easily able to stand far greater pressures. I believe Taffin stated that the FA353 would outrun the cartridge. Ipse dixit is not my thing but in this case believe it.

[Any Cal.]

Good point... so what barrel length revo, and what is it going to be used for? Lots of reasons to run cheaper pistol rounds over a nearly obselete mid bore magnum...

:-)

[Gibson]

Good point... so what barrel length revo, and what is it going to be used for? Lots of reasons to run cheaper pistol rounds over a nearly obselete mid bore magnum...

:-)

No idea, amigo. Not my thread :)

I have a Beretta 92FS Centurion (light rail; 20 round mec-gar), A CZ83, a Colt MK IV Series 70 Government Model .45 ACP, and a Glock G20SF 10mm. Not too many pistols (writ small). . .

But. . .

I load up the BFR 500 mag and stroll my purview with "the calm confidence of a Christian [holding] four aces".

[Elkins45]

"The auto has proven itself vastly more reliable than the lightweight auto."

Good thing those Glocks never Kaboom and an FTF will be "vastly" less of a problem in a semi-auto. Seriously though, where you are 700 to 750 ft lbs of energy should be enough.

I meant to type "lightweight revolver" but you quoted me before I went back and fixed my mistake.

I can only comment on MY G20 and MY 329PD. My Glock hasn't broken yet but my revolver was completely unreliable. I realize that's an anomaly but it's my experience.

[yondering]

4" Mtn gun is similar size to 6" G20, barrel length is measured differently so can not be compared straight across. 20 also weighs1/2lb or so less.

Yep, that's what I was getting at. Practical limitations on what you can carry are based on the actual size of the gun. If you want to quote ballistics from a 4" Mtn Gun, my 6" G20 will push a 180gr cast a bit over that 1400fps quoted for the 357; and that's actual chronograph numbers, not advertising. It will also do it with less recoil and less muzzle blast. Seems like an advantage to me?

Not to mention, none of my 357's ever gave me advertised velocity numbers, they were all a good bit slower.

If you look at small guns (not the point of the thread, I know), the 357 is about equal to the 40 S&W. A good comparison is my Kahr CW40 and SP101 2-1/4". Both guns are very close to the same size. With book max loads, the SP101 pushes a 158gr cast to 1100 fps. The CW40 pushes a 165gr to 1100 fps. My buddies 4" Model 65 adds a bit less than 200 fps to that number, putting it well behind the Glock 20 10mm, again in a similar sized package.

[jmort]

^ And a 6" GP 100 will do even more and so on and so on. You 10mm guys are tough. BTW, I will take the Buffalo Bore numbers to the bank even over someone's "actual chronograph numbers." Revolvers have a cylinder gap and the semi-autos use "different/unfair" barrel lengths. Again, Put the .357 in a Coonan and it goes even faster. I was just responding to the often repeated myth that 4" revolvers can't keep up with the 10mm and that only in longer barrels will the .357 shine. It shines on and on. I would like to have a 10mm.

[Elkins45]

I would like to have a 10mm.

I would like to have a high capacity one that doesn't require that you spend $135 to buy an aftermarket barrel that lets you reuse your brass. I was very disappointed to discover that my new 20SF bulges brass with full power loads just as badly as my old one from the mid-90's does. I'm now going to have to spring for a Lone Wolf or Storm Lake barrel to get more than one firing out of a case. Of course, I suppose if a mad bear was clawing my face off I don't guess that would be high on my list of priorities, but my fear is that one of those bulging cases might just let go at the worst possible time.

I actually do have a 10mm that fully supports cases, but it was made by Smith & Wesson and they don't sell them anymore. It's also steel-framed (heavy) and only holds nine rounds. I would love to see an M&P in 10mm on the 45 platform.

[yondering]

I was just responding to the often repeated myth that 4" revolvers can't keep up with the 10mm

How is that a myth? It may not be true in every case, but it certainly is in the guns I've measured, like I just said above. Claiming that the auto's barrel length is "unfair" is silly; I specifically compared the same size gun. Most 357's are revolvers, and most 10mm's are autos; I don't see how oddball stuff like the Coonan matters here?

You say you'd rather believe advertised ballistics than actual chronograph numbers, and it sounds like you don't even have a 10mm; your comments don't sound very credible to me.

Comparing a 4" 357 revolver to a service pistol sized 10mm and book maximum loads in both; the 10mm delivers more power, with less recoil and less muzzle blast. In everything I've shot, anyway. That doesn't mean the revolver isn't a good choice for some people, but the 10mm does have some clear advantages.

To add a little more for discussion - and this is just a single sample, to be clear - the 4" Tracker my buddy owned in 41 Magnum was barely the ballistic equal of my Glock 20 and my 1911 (10mm's). All of these pushed the same 220gr hard cast bullet (sized down to .401" for the 10mm's) to just under 1200 fps. Yeah, the 41 should have been faster, but it wasn't, and that load was slightly over published data with H110. And, the 41 Magnum was heavier, roughly equal dimensions, and had a lot more recoil and blast, for exactly the same ballistics.

What it boils down to, for me at least, is the 10mm vs 357 or 41 mag question is really about semi-auto vs revolver choice, not the cartridge itself. All can be argued to be close enough to not matter (unless you're talking long barreled revolvers), so it depends what kind of gun you want to carry.

[jmort]

I will say it again as it needs to sink in:
No, sorry - book loads or not, I will stick with Buffalo Bore data.
Since Buffalo Bore has proven to be accurate in their data I go by what they list:

10mm 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)
1. 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
2. 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5 inch barrel
3. 1201 fps - Para Ordinance 1911 with Nowlin 5 inch barrel

10mm 180 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,350fps/M.E. 728 ft. lbs.
1. 1311 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
2. 1337 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5 inch barrel
3. 1351 fps - Para Ordinance 1911 with Nowlin 5 inch barrel

Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)
4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
5 inch S&W model 27
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps

.357 more gun, more energy, better sectional density, better penetration with same length barrels and as you can see a shorter S&W MT. Gun with 4" barrel is more gun than the longer barrel 10mm.

[Gibson]

Deleted.

[Any Cal.]

.22, .357 or 10mm (depending on platform preference) .44Mag. Pick the weight you are scared enough to carry, and then you will know which caliber you are taking. Hmmm, am I 20, 32, or 48oz scared? Or for the .500 guys, am I 5.2lbs of scared to go out today? Not a knock on you gibson, those are the calibers I like at this moment...:-)

It is never only about ballistics, it is also platform, size, and weight.

It isn't just black and white paper ballistics, either. IF a .357 was the same size and weight as a G20, and would do 180@1400 vs. the 10 doing 230@1100, which would be better? Same s.d., but one has the weight and size advantage, while the other has more velocity. What if the g20 was limited to 10 rd mags, would it change anything? Would the activity or weather conditions change your answer? (rhetorical questions, really, but make the point, I think.)

[Gibson]

.22, .357 or 10mm (depending on platform preference) .44Mag. Pick the weight you are scared enough to carry, and then you will know which caliber you are taking. Hmmm, am I 20, 32, or 48oz scared? Or for the .500 guys, am I 5.2lbs of scared to go out today? Not a knock on you gibson, those are the calibers I like at this moment...:-)

It is never only about ballistics, it is also platform, size, and weight.

It isn't just black and white paper ballistics, either. IF a .357 was the same size and weight as a G20, and would do 180@1400 vs. the 10 doing 230@1100, which would be better? Same s.d., but one has the weight and size advantage, while the other has more velocity. What if the g20 was limited to 10 rd mags, would it change anything? Would the activity or weather conditions change your answer? (rhetorical questions, really, but make the point, I think.)

What I would do is read the original question. It was ABOUT revolvers.

I own a G20SF, but haven't joined the cult. It's NOT an FA353 nor is it a Ruger RH 357. No how, no way. Chop the barrels to commensurate lengths. . . try to keep up with a 200 grain bullet; then pick up your trigger finger and your 10mm pieces up and get to the ER.

Bullet base diameter does equal less pressure so the 10mm has a clear advantage but pressure is the name of the game for those two commercially produced revolvers.

And in no way are the ballistics comparable to the .41 mag. 265 grains bullet weight @ 1350 fps from a 6.5" barrel. . .

Scared? I'm not familiar with that term. :kidding:

The G20 is too light for my liking. My wife can shoot it.

If I want a light piece I'll go with my SBH in .44 magnum, it has a 4 5/8" barrel but it throws a 310 gr. chunk of lead at 1346 fps. Now, it doesn't have a 74 round magazine or anything, and I cannot conceal it in a matchbook, not is it a high speed of deployment weapon.

But since "weight" is a sort of relative term, it works for me. And it's just a pathetic old SA. But I can handle it and it's can ride easily in a shoulder rig or on my hip, if I need. OC in western KY= not a problem. But I don't.

I like big bore handguns.

It's silly really. Like what you like but this question was clearly focused. It was about revolver round ballistics. It's an old thread that got reanimated. I'll let it fade back into oblivion as I have stated what I think, cogently and coherently, I hope. Adios.

Re: your 500 mag hyperbole. . . I set off 50 rounds yesterday, FINALLY, after almost 3 weeks off due to a Green River skinner (now it's back to daily practice):
http://imageshack.us/a/img528/6559/386m.jpg

[Any Cal.]

What I would do is read the original question. It was ABOUT revolvers.]

Yeah, but that had been beat to death. Plus, between single action .44s, Coonans, and G20s, who was talking about the original subject anyway?:bigsmyl2:

The original post should have asked what advantages either calber would have had in a revo, rather than which had more power. In that frame, the .44 has more power, so if that is what they were after, the .41 was pointless. Learning the advantages of each caliber would have been far more beneficial.

[colombo]

Energetic and opinionated site ya all have here, being a fan of the .357, 10mm, and .41 I'm both chuckling and confused. No serious bears here in the sunshine state, I carry a tupperware 10mm in the back pocket at work and have a cute little 2.5" .357 K frame under the counter while there for 2 legged problems too. Very different creatures by the numbers only I suspect but I'm familiar with both and the expected effects. The .41 is in my opinion excessive for my situation. Big real bears with a handgun? No thank you, I'll take the weight of a rifle, even a 30-30 with light little 170 grain boolits (feels weird spelling it that way).

Great site by the way with lots of wonderful information, couldn't resist throwing in my opinion as a first post, hope you all forgive me.

Colombo

[jmort]

Most of the threads are not contentious except typical Lee Precision bashing. It's mostly Kumbaya.

[bld451]

10mm..............moon clips are cool.

:)

[ctious]

The 10mm is a great round. Some of my personal loads are
6in barrel
A 200 gr cast at 1450.

184 gr cast at 1610

192 gr cast at 1510.

155 gr jacket at 1625

180 gt jacket and 1470.

220 cast at 1320.

If you take cast to cast the 10mm will stomp the 357.

Jacket to jacket it will beat the 357.

41 mag and 10mm in exact same barrel length, the 41 will outdo it. But not by much in comparable weights. The 41 advantage comes with heavy bullets.

[MT Chambers]

The 10mm is a great round. Some of my personal loads are
6in barrel
A 200 gr cast at 1450.

184 gr cast at 1610

192 gr cast at 1510.

155 gr jacket at 1625

180 gt jacket and 1470.

220 cast at 1320.

If you take cast to cast the 10mm will stomp the 357.

Jacket to jacket it will beat the 357.

41 mag and 10mm in exact same barrel length, the 41 will outdo it. But not by much in comparable weights. The 41 advantage comes with heavy bullets.
All a person has to do is put the 2 cases side by side, no voodoo loading will change it.

[jmort]

The 10 mm is not even close to a .41 mag. A 460 Rowland gets close. Keep dreaming.

[ctious]

[QUOTE=MT Chambers;2410694]All a person has to do is put the 2 cases side by side, no voodoo loading will change it.[QUOTE]
Looks don't tell u much. U have to load and shoot them to see what happens. And no voodoo loading in my loads. They are loads that still fall under sammi in most and a few step over a little to the low 40,000 range. Being the sammi original spec for the 10mm was 41500. I am still loading in the original design area.

[jmort]

"I am still loading in the original design area."

Regardless, to compare a 10 mm to a .41 mag is pure nonsense. Don't know why the 10 mm fan boys insist on pretending the 10 mm is something it is not.

[ctious]

"I am still loading in the original design area."

Regardless, to compare a 10 mm to a .41 mag is pure nonsense. Don't know why the 10 mm fan boys insist on pretending the 10 mm is something it is not.
If u read my post u will see that I never said they were the same. I said in comparable barrels and weights they are almost the same. The advantage goes to the 41 with heavy bullets.


It's the same as those that try to compare the 357 mag to the 10mm
They take cast load data for the 357 and put it to jacketed 10mm. The speeds are close. But put the cast in the 10mm and it destroys the 357. Also in the same barrels the 357 can't even come close.

[jmort]

You are wrong on every level in every way. Using real world test results from Buffalo Bore, which are take it to the bank accurate, the .357 with cast has more energy and better SD than the 10 mm. North of 750 ft lbs. The 10 mm not so much. As for the .41 mag, you are talking about over 1,000 ft lbs. I'll trust Buffalo Bore/Tim Sundles real world data over your pretend world any day. You can say anything you want, I'll rely on fact. The best you can say is that the 10 mm is comparable to a .357, but to compare the 10 mm to the .41 mag means you cannot be taken seriously.

[mpmarty]

That's OK, 41 magnum is only available in clunky revolvers that date back to wwarI times. I'll take my 10mm with fifteen rounds in the mag any day over that old clunker.

[armexman]

Mike, I feel your pain!! A long three years ago I had money and did not buy a Marlin lever rifle at "Grandpa's Guns" in Longmont. Now in 2013 I still cry and just keep up the practice with NMBK.

[ctious]

You are wrong on every level in every way. Using real world test results from Buffalo Bore, which are take it to the bank accurate, the .357 with cast has more energy and better SD than the 10 mm. North of 750 ft lbs. The 10 mm not so much. As for the .41 mag, you are talking about over 1,000 ft lbs. I'll trust Buffalo Bore/Tim Sundles real world data over your pretend world any day. You can say anything you want, I'll rely on fact. The best you can say is that the 10 mm is comparable to a .357, but to compare the 10 mm to the .41 mag means you cannot be taken seriously.


Lol. I have 10mm loads in cast over 1000ft lbs. Taken to the max saami what I say is true. 700 ft lbs in a 10mm is easy to hit far below 37500. The reason 10mm is loaded weak is cause it will destroy semi auto guns in its full power. I shoot 10mm and 41 load both. All things being equal in barrel and weight the 10mm and 41 are almost identical. Go heavy and the 41 passes it by a lot. Same as the 10mm passes the 357 by a lot with heavier loads.


U have to remember a 4in barrel 41 is about the same length at a 6 inch semi auto.

[ctious]

Also my loads are all proven over at least 2 different chronos.

[ctious]

Also a 3.78 inch barrel of my glock 29 will outdo an 41 mag with the same bullet weight. Seeing u have to use a 2in barrel 41 to match the overall length.

Research performance of short barrel mag revolvers. Its pretty poor.

[ctious]

Wheel guns are measured barrel only. Semi autos from firing pin.

[plainsman456]

In my book the 41 mag is better,until someone makes a lever action in 40 caliber.

[SOFMatchstaff]

I have a 120 year old rifle in "40" caliber, shoots great, after the reline. 38-40, 1892 Win, first year production. Loaded toasty, it compares well with the modern magnums..
I also have a 10mm Magnum in a Coonan that pretty much stomps every thing in this whole thread,(rifles excluded) and I've been a 41 Mag addict for 43 years, and have loaded up and down the scale for them. I waited patiently for the 41 mag version of the Coonan, and finally had to build the 10 mag. the std 10mm wouldn't feed and cycle the Coonan (I have the original factory test barrel) Dan hardly gave it a second thought, magazine considerations aside.

I agree, most targets dont know the difference between the calibers discussed, interesting dialogue though...

[jmort]

"Also my loads are all proven over at least 2 different chronos."

I could care less about your "personal loads." I will take the Buffalo Bore data which is proven.

"Wheel guns are measured barrel only. Semi autos from firing pin."

Revolvers have a cylinder gap.

"Also a 3.78 inch barrel of my glock 29 will outdo an 41 mag with the same bullet weight."

From Buffalo Bore:

Heavy 10mm Ammo - 220 gr. 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel

Heavy .41 Magnum Ammo - 230 gr. Keith 1370 fps - 4" S&W Mountain Gun

"Research performance of short barrel mag revolvers. Its pretty poor."

Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC 1302 fps - 3 inch S&W J frame

Not bad for a "belly gun" The short barrel mag myth is perpetuated by people with "short barrels"

[singleshot]

Wow! This is almost officially a "zombie thread." It simply won't die.

Now that I've commented on the thread age, I'll throw in this:
In a revolver, you're better off with rimmed cartridges over the long haul. Moon clips just aren't quite as good...higher parts count, and they're relatively fragile.

[another gunslinger]

I own a glock 20 (and a 29) and a ruger blackhawk in 41 mag. As with most calibers with similarly sized projectiles, a revolver round typically shoots from a case with higher capacity than it's autoloading counterpart.

A 41 has more energy than a 10mm, and that doesn't take anything away from the 10. I use both for deer season. I like both, but the comparison is like a 40 short and weak to a 357 mag. Not even close to the same performance. Maybe a better comparison is a 9mm +p to a 357 mag.

16 rounds of 10mm is a LOT more power than 6 rounds of 41, though.

I would say the 10mm is closer to the 41 than the 357 magnum.

I think everyone should own both.

Just my $.02.

[ctious]

"Also my loads are all proven over at least 2 different chronos."

I could care less about your "personal loads." I will take the Buffalo Bore data which is proven.

"Wheel guns are measured barrel only. Semi autos from firing pin."

Revolvers have a cylinder gap.

"Also a 3.78 inch barrel of my glock 29 will outdo an 41 mag with the same bullet weight."

From Buffalo Bore:

Heavy 10mm Ammo - 220 gr. 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel

Heavy .41 Magnum Ammo - 230 gr. Keith 1370 fps - 4" S&W Mountain Gun

"Research performance of short barrel mag revolvers. Its pretty poor."

Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC 1302 fps - 3 inch S&W J frame

Not bad for a "belly gun" The short barrel mag myth is perpetuated by people with "short barrels"

Seems u missed the point that the 10mm ammo quoted is not loaded fully. If you would have read what I said u would see that most all 10mm ammo bought retail is not full loads. It's watered down to not break guns. Also in your quote you are giving the 41 a lot of extra barrel over the semi auto. You mention cylinder gap. But you forget that the semi auto is not a locked chamber. So the gap loss is the same as the non locked chamber.
The 3in 357 mag is equal to the 4.6 glock 20. And the 180 grain xtp easily does over 1400. And 180 cast is easy over 1500.

[dkf]

"I am still loading in the original design area."

Regardless, to compare a 10 mm to a .41 mag is pure nonsense. Don't know why the 10 mm fan boys insist on pretending the 10 mm is something it is not.

The die hard 10mm fanboys are the most dellusional bunch I have ever came across. The 10mm is a good cartridge and the most power you can get in several pistol platforms out of the box. That said comparing a 10mm to a .41mag is like comparing a .40sw to 10mm. The .40 falls short of the 10mm, the 10mm falls short of the .41mag. Energy numbers don't mean so much when you have to use a 135gr bullet that blows apart when it hits the target to attain that energy levels.

For god sakes enjoy your 10mm and .41mags for what they are and not what they are not.

[ctious]

The die hard 10mm fanboys are the most dellusional bunch I have ever came across. The 10mm is a good cartridge and the most power you can get in several pistol platforms out of the box. That said comparing a 10mm to a .41mag is like comparing a .40sw to 10mm. The .40 falls short of the 10mm, the 10mm falls short of the .41mag. Energy numbers don't mean so much when you have to use a 135gr bullet that blows apart when it hits the target to attain that energy levels.

For god sakes enjoy your 10mm and .41mags for what they are and not what they are not.

Who shoots 135? 155 is my lightest. I like my 200s at 1400 to 1450 personally.

[Ruger45Bisley]

I got to vote .41 Mag every time. I don't even have one yet, but will be buying a BH in .41 Mag before long. I've had a number of 10mm's including some 1911's, a handful of G20's and G29s and a S&W 610 and loaded for it for a long time and can see the point a lot of the 10mm guys make, but inevitably these threads always turn into a platform debate. But since it's inception several years ago, this thread was about revolvers, the .41 Mag makes the most sense in that platform.

Revolvers have a cylinder gap which often costs them about 100 fps in velocity, or thereabouts if you compare velocities between, for instance, a Coonan .357 vs a 6" .357 revolver. If you kept everything even, same barrel length and type of barrel, the .41 Mag will win every time. It seems commonplace among the diehard 10mm fans to load the 10mm way over pressure and at the same time feel doing so is perfectly normal, even the guy above who seems to think that even Buffalo Bore 10mm isn't full powered. If they're going to load the 10mm beyond spec, it's fair game to do the same with the other cartridges. I know what a 10mm can do, and it's not a .41 Magnum.

Nobody sanely argues the 10mm is similar to the .41 Mag when it isn't, the .41 is in a different class. The 10mm has more in common with the .40 S&W, as it the both shoot the same caliber and weight bullets, the 10mm just has a little bit of a velocity advantage. The .41 shoots bigger bullets heavier bullets faster than the 10mm can. I also agree the 10mm, even loaded hot is similar in power to a warmly loaded .357 Mag, although I give the slight nod to the .357 Mag. The 10mm has the size, weight and capacity advantage, but only when platforms change.

[osteodoc08]

Attack of the zombie thread!!!![smilie=1:

It comes down to case capacity. You will never truly match all out capability of a 41 magnum with a 10mm. It just isnt gonna happen. You can have 41mag "lite" capability, but never all out max.

From Hodgdon's website and max velocity:

10mm
180gr-1287 fps with Longshot
200gr-1172 with Longshot

41 Mag
170gr-1887fps with 296/H110
210gr-1631fps with 296/H110
265gr-1558fps with Lil'Gun

There just is no comparison when you look at the real data available to handloaders. None. Period. End of story. It's just basic physics.

While were at it, the same applies to the 357sig vs 357Mag. 357 Mag will win everytime.

That being said, I feel very comfortable toting my G20SF around the woods due to its overall capability, capacity and weight. It is enough for anything I'll encounter in GA.

[unique]

Wow, this was really fun to read all the way thru ...sort of a study in ballistics, psychology, humor and a whole lot of opinion all rolled up in one. Of course the 41 Mag is the better of the two...IMHO.

[lwknight]

yea, yea, Chevy beats Ford and Dodge beats them both. Big deal.
Some folks like facts and others just want the ideology of mine is better than yours.

[9.3X62AL]

Hijo la! I have discontinued use of and the reloading of both the 10mm and the 41 Magnum. Both are fine calibers, quite useful and practical. But my circumstances' totality showed both to be a bit superfluous in light of other calibers also on staff here, and neither of the 2 discontinued calibers was permitted for CCW carry any longer due to HR 218 adoption and agency responses to same. Off they went.

[Blanco]

41 Go BANG
10mm Go BANG
BANG good !
Mongo like BANG !

[quilbilly]

.41 Mag wheel gun= 6 rounds and reload
10MM auto pistol, mags vary, but my Glock 20=15+1 up the pipe
Lotta firepower
The .41 has a slight ballistic advantage, as noted above. I doubt anything you'd shoot a slug into would be able to tell the difference.... :shock:
Speaking on my experience at the speed+volume pistol shoots at NCBS where you start with an empty cylinder or clip on the table, you can put a lot more CB's downrange with a revolver than with a clip fed. With a revolver you can load and reload a lot faster plus no worries about "stove piping" a round.

[Marc3rd]

all good data and points. I just have one question.
a 41 mag and a 100 mm bore is almost identical .5 mm diff.
the max sami pressure for a 357 and a 41 mag is 35000 psi
the max sami pressure for a 10 mm auto is 37500 psi. thats an extra 2500 psi.
if both loaded to max pressure with the same lead, how can a 41 mag pack more punch than a 10 mm??

[rking22]

More case capacity for the 41mag, no contest in my mind

[cwlongshot]

WOAH... TEN year old post here!!!

CW

[jmort]

The .41 mag is in another universive power-wise. Why do the 10mm fan boys make stuff up? I like my 10mm well enough, but it needs to catch-up to the .357 mag, before it even dreams about the .41 mag. Zombie thread should have been left for dead.

[RED BEAR]

I cary a 41 not a 10mm. But learn to use what you got the best you can. Both will do the job. I don't live in what most call bear country but did have a power company employee chased on top of a trailer by a small swamp bear ( small black bear ). Wife said we were moving that day a little closer to the suburbs.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya and the 44 mag is in another universe then the 41 but yet fan boys sure like to deny that fact. What it comes down to his how you load them. a 200 grain cast bullet at 1200 fps with the same size metplat as a 210 grain bullet at 1300 fps doesn't have enough difference to even argue. Now if your loading your 41 up to max pressure with a 250 lfn your going to beat the heck out of any 10mm load. Just like if I load my 44 mag up with a 300 grain lfn at max pressure its going to eat a 250 41 for lunch. Now all that said any of the above loads will kill any deer black bear or pig walking on earth. 10 mm fan boys?? No pistol caliber has more fan boys then the 41 mag other then maybe the 45 colt guys. Most of them think just buying a 41 or 45 makes you a sixgun expert. Me I use each and every one of them and like them all. Held against the wall and could only keep one hunting revolver and it would hands down be a 44 mag. Might not be the cool thing for the internet experts but when all the advantages and disadvantages are added up it stands tall. You can go to Walmart and buy a box of ammo and go hunting and never be under gunned. I do like the 45 and freely admit given to an experienced handloader and caster it can out do the 44. But the 41 just never impressed me. Ive owned a half a dozen or so but have probably shot more 44s on any given year then all the 41s ive shot since I got my first 41. to me its like ordering an camaro and getting it with a 6cyl.
The .41 mag is in another universive power-wise. Why do the 10mm fan boys make stuff up? I like my 10mm well enough, but it needs to catch-up to the .357 mag, before it even dreams about the .41 mag. Zombie thread should have been left for dead.

[Sig556r]

A magnum caliber being pitted against one that is not, with the former having a tad bigger cal & case capacity, seems to be a no brainer. All things being equal (bullet design, same gun & powder load), let's see who've done this & what the results are.

[Lloyd Smale]

all things equal biggers allways better. Guess the argument comes mostly from whats more effective 6 41s in a revolver or 15 in a semi auto that have a bit less power or even 10 in my 29 that is easier and lighter to pack. I can probably shoot the 29 10 times as fast as I can shoot 6 out of a smith and definitely faster then a single action and if that doesn't take the fight out of something slam a 15 round 20 mag in it and go back to work. I know this argument is silly and id be the first to say that probably nobody here has had a grizzly attack them but I do know if one did id take my glock 20 or 29 hands down over my 657 or a my two ruger single action 41s. Now for hunting deer bear or pigs the 41 obviously has slight advantage. theres not much that will put more lead and hurt on any animal any faster then a glock 20 unless you want to fan one of my linebaughs. but chances are that second shot is just as likely to hit you as the bear.
A magnum caliber being pitted against one that is not, with the former having a tad bigger cal & case capacity, seems to be a no brainer. All things being equal (bullet design, same gun & powder load), let's see who've done this & what the results are.

[jmort]

Do you want one or two six plus foot wound channels with a revolver or two or three four foot wound channels?
I will take something that goes stem to stern.

[rking22]

A new member resurrected this thread to ask a specific question about the two rounds. Welcome to the forum Marc3rd !

[jmort]

Good point
The thread was silly, but new members are cool

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

all good data and points. I just have one question.
a 41 mag and a 100 mm bore is almost identical .5 mm diff.
the max sami pressure for a 357 and a 41 mag is 35000 psi
the max sami pressure for a 10 mm auto is 37500 psi. thats an extra 2500 psi.
if both loaded to max pressure with the same lead, how can a 41 mag pack more punch than a 10 mm??

Marc3rd,
Welcome to the forum.

You ask a great question.
I haven't searched, but if the published data indicates that it's more typical that the 41 can be loaded with a heavier boolit, then that would explain the "More Punch" theory. I would assume a Semi-auto in 10 is more likely to have a limited top end heavy boolit, where as Revolvers don't have that type of limiting factor, but no doubt there is a limit at some point, just not as low as a Semi-auto would have, so one could surmise that it's more likely that the 41 could be loaded with a heavier boolit and at some point, even loaded at a pressure that is 2500psi lower, there will be a point that it will have more punch...of course there are Revolvers in 10...so there's that.

Anyway, as a 41 fan boy, it wouldn't matter if the 10 has bit more punch or not, I'd still prefer a 41.
that's my 2¢.

[Sig556r]

all things equal biggers allways better. Guess the argument comes mostly from whats more effective 6 41s in a revolver or 15 in a semi auto that have a bit less power or even 10 in my 29 that is easier and lighter to pack. I can probably shoot the 29 10 times as fast as I can shoot 6 out of a smith and definitely faster then a single action and if that doesn't take the fight out of something slam a 15 round 20 mag in it and go back to work. I know this argument is silly and id be the first to say that probably nobody here has had a grizzly attack them but I do know if one did id take my glock 20 or 29 hands down over my 657 or a my two ruger single action 41s. Now for hunting deer bear or pigs the 41 obviously has slight advantage. theres not much that will put more lead and hurt on any animal any faster then a glock 20 unless you want to fan one of my linebaughs. but chances are that second shot is just as likely to hit you as the bear.
I guess the issue evolved to semis vs revs...
Being a black gun fanboy, got bias with semi-auto vs wheelguns, however, I hate chasing brass, OAL constraints (magazine, feedramp), cycling issues causing FTF/FTE...so apple vs. oranges to me...

[jmort]

Just go to Buffalo Bore, Underwood, or Double Tap, and you can shine a real bright light on this. Here is Buffalo Bore with specific guns:


HEAVY .41 MAGNUM OUTDOORSMAN
265 gr. L.W.N. (1,350 fps/M.E. 1,072 ft. lbs.)

➤ 6.5" Ruger
a. Item #16A - 1379 fps

➤ 4" S&W Mountain Gun

a. Item #16A - 1310 fps


HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN
(1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)

➤ 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6-inch barrel
➤ 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5-inch barrel
➤ 1201 fps - Para Ordnance 1911 with Nowlin 5-inch barrel

Sorry to dissapoint team 10mm. I like my 10mm, a lot. I just do not fantasize about it.

[RED BEAR]

As far as the 10 mm carrying more rounds if 5 41 mags can't stop it i am not even going to try to reload i am going to run as fast as my old fat self can.

[SvenLindquist]

I can shoot 14 from my 10mm GRAND and reload 13 more faster than you can shoot 6 from your S&W and reload 6 more. AND I have a green laser too.

Wonder who is last man standing ?

https://i.imgur.com/yYK3Sqg.jpg

[Taterhead]

I love zombie threads!

I'm a big fan of the 10mm. Awesomely versatile cartridge. A Glock model 20 is a capable platform.
Loaded with an LBT 200 gr WFN at 1250 fps gives me plenty of confidence in the backcountry.

That being said, I am pretty sure that my next revolver will be in 41 magnum. Not sure why, but I'm intrigued.

[Lloyd Smale]

vitals on most animals hunted with either both 2 legged and 4 legged only need about 6 to 8 inches of penetration to get to the vitals or central nervous system. I guess it may be an adavange if your blazing away and deer running away from you. If your seriously using either for dangerous game backup then you have a bigger set then me. There both pop guns when a grizzly is looking you in the eye. PLEASE GOD give me the sense to have a 475 or 500 of some kind on me when that happens or better yet don't make me so stupid as to leave my rifle sitting out of reach.

[jmort]

I can shoot 14 from my 10mm GRAND and reload 13 more faster than you can shoot 6 from your S&W and reload 6 more. AND I have a green laser too.

Wonder who is last man standing ?



Whoever makes the first decent hit.

[SvenLindquist]

And how many Griz bears have you confronted in MI ? In WY we actually have a LOT of them. If you believe a Buffalo Bore 10mm load will not kill a Griz bear or anything else in the lower 48, you are misinformed.

Then there is the inconvenient fact that I can get off 3 shots with the 10mm in the time a SA hand cannon can get off one. AND have 11 more while you have 4.

I know NO outfitter who carries a 5 pound 5 shot SA revolver as a backup weapon.

A handgun is always the weapon of last resort in bear country. My horse carries a 300 WinMag semi auto in hunting season and an 870 stoked with 3" Brenneke Blacks otherwise.

[SvenLindquist]

Whoever makes the first decent hit.

Yes, and less recoil, faster repeat shots and better sighting usually wins the day.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup and I can find some 44 numbers to show you you should leave your 41 at home or even 475 numbers that make that 44 look like a pop gun. fps and ftlbs don't kill putting a bullet into the vitals or central nervous system does. Stem to stearn. Well a 220 hardcast 401 bullet probably is pretty close in bc to a 250 grain 41 bullet. One things for sure. If you've actually hunted with cast bullets you know as well as I do that pushing a cast bullet more then 1200 fps doesn't allways relate to more penetration. More times then not a bullet out of anything short of monotype hitting bone much faster deforms and you end up with less penetration or at least a bullet that deflects on its "stem to stern pass"

Penetration isn't allways a caliber or speed game. I shot my 5.5 in accusport bisley 44 at a Linebaugh semiar years ago in the penetration tests. I was loaded with a 340 lfngc cast out of lineotype and pushed to a bit under 1200fps. It was beat by only 4 guns that year. two 475 loads (one was a punch bullet that I knew I had no chance against) and the other two was my own 458 shooting win 500 grain solids and a 458 lott shooting solids. Point is what you load is as important as what gun your using. Numbers don't mean much other then to mathematicians .

Another thing that was kind of an eye opener there was the charging bear target. Now you have some of the best handgun shooters ive met there and watch them with a single action or double action with just the pressure of people watching that aren't going to eat them and most were lucky and I mean lucky to get two hits on it. What dominated that shooting was a few with 1911s and a couple guys with glocks. Many of them got 5 or 6 hits and some even that many in the vitals. I got 4 in the vitals with my 1911 and one in the vitals with my 500 and another one cranked off that might have hit the moon. I know many who couldn't hit a paper target at 25 yards shooting da every time let alone if you rush them at all. Sure theres guys that do well with long da trigger pulls but there pretty darned rare. Most of the jmort fantasize about that. https://www.range365.com/best-bear-defense-handgun
Just go to Buffalo Bore, Underwood, or Double Tap, and you can shine a real bright light on this. Here is Buffalo Bore with specific guns:


HEAVY .41 MAGNUM OUTDOORSMAN
265 gr. L.W.N. (1,350 fps/M.E. 1,072 ft. lbs.)

➤ 6.5" Ruger
a. Item #16A - 1379 fps

➤ 4" S&W Mountain Gun

a. Item #16A - 1310 fps


HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN
(1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)

➤ 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6-inch barrel
➤ 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5-inch barrel
➤ 1201 fps - Para Ordnance 1911 with Nowlin 5-inch barrel

Sorry to dissapoint team 10mm. I like my 10mm, a lot. I just do not fantasize about it.

[SvenLindquist]

Shooting at targets, even "charging ones" is a lot different than confronting a real threat in real time.

My 329 stoked with 310 gr hardcasts and max load of H110 is being retired in favor of the Grand with Buffalo Bores.

I have shot them sided by side, deploying from El Paso Tanker holster. There is no comparison after shot #1.

Were I confident in one shot, I'd carry my 45-70 Contender.

[Lloyd Smale]

Shooting at targets, even "charging ones" is a lot different than confronting a real threat in real time. yes sir your correct. Point was that just the stress of a charging piece of paper rattles most even very experienced handgun shooters. Now replace that paper with something that wants to eat you. take a roll of toilet paper and some handwipes along with you. Closest I came was a 300 lb bore that came at me (well I think it did anyway) I shot a sow and the bore that was with her came right at me. I don't know if it wanted me or the hole in the brush behind me it dove into. I had one of my 475s in my hand and didn't even have time to aim at it. Matter of fact it ended up in the dirt. I just jumped up and it went right through my legs. Buddys got a good laugh. far from an 800lb grizzly bear coming at you. All this dangerous game back up fantasy's is just walter middy stuff. Much it by guys who have shot a deer or two with a handgun (if even that). heck im guilty myself. I own a 458 mag. Aint know elephants in Michigan last I checked. Only thing its killed is a 200 lb black bear in a tree that could have been shot with a 357. I can at least have some repect for you opinion Sven. You live in bear country and even if you haven't had to face down a bear you've probably at least talked to people who have.

[GLynn41]

About the buffalo Bore chart listed above....the numbers do give a way to compare in similar terms even if it is not as accurate as to real life. There are almost always bigger more powerful handguns. The .500 and .475 are normally going to be at the top.. from there it is pretty much down hill. Now that does not make the lesser .45s, 44. .41 useless just as with most things.. one has to use what they have on hand when it is needed. I have a 10 mm and it is a powerful black gun. I would rather have it than nothing at all.

[jmort]

"Most of the jmort fantasize about that."

English please?

[jmort]

About 10 years ago the O/P asked a simple question about the difference in ballistics between the .41 magnum and a 10mm in a revolver. Simple question. Simple answer. Lot of long-winded posts that have nothing to do with the question.

[Good Cheer]

.41 is pretty nice, like having a one handed 40-65 that's almost not one handed any more.
237214

Looking forward to testing that boolit in the single shot rifle too.
The load on the left was a humdinger.

[Texas by God]

The .41 magnum is the .41 Magnum. The 10mm is more like a high capacity .41 Special. To me.

[Lloyd Smale]

About 10 years ago the O/P asked a simple question about the difference in ballistics between the .41 magnum and a 10mm in a revolver. Simple question. Simple answer. Lot of long-winded posts that have nothing to do with the question.

lets see. I post 7 times on this thread and your posted 17 times!!! truth be told 8 wasted pages. the original question could have been answered easily with two words PRACTICAL NO

[Lloyd Smale]

"Most of the jmort fantasize about that."

English please?

My apology, the jmort was suppose to be middy. now im up to over half as many as you!

[9.3X62AL]

I just love a good Caliber War. It has sold a whole lot of gunrags and sucked up a bunch of bandwidth online.

I love the 10mm. I have at least 20 years of experience with the caliber. I wish like Sheol I could have carried it on duty when I was chasing bad guys for a living. Is it a "Magazine-fed 41 Magnum"? Not quite, but close with the right loadings. Is it "Only a magazine-fed 357 Magnum?" It can be, if you choose to limit yourself to its medium-intensity factory loadings. Is it "No better than the 40 S&W"? It can be that, too--if you opt for the FBI-touted 10mm Lite loads by Federal.

The 41 Magnum is a GREAT CALIBER--if you handload. Its adherence to dimensional integrity among its makers impresses me a lot. I think this has been the key to its popularity over the years, a trait it shares with the 38 Special and 357 Magnum. The 44 Magnum and 45 Colt can be.......dimensionally poetic, let's just say--and often require some gymnastics with platform or componentry and tooling to get their best performances. The 10mm has had a similar close adherence to dimensional standards IME. This GREATLY assists those engaged in working up handloads to feed their sidearms with that are accurate and reliable.

My thoughts--if a person only wants to buy one revolver or autopistol caliber for general usage, you could do far worse that to make your choice either or both the 10mm Auto and/or the 41 Magnum. Autopistol vs. revolver? I used to think that the self-loaders were superior in all respects to the wheelgun as felon repellent. I am not as convinced of that superiority as I once was, though I do feel that the autopistol's advantages still outweigh those of a revolver in a Big Picture overview--with the proviso that its user keep his or her skill set sharpened. I have ZERO DOUBT after many years as a trainer that autopistol skill sets are FAR more perishable than are D/A revolver skill sets.

So, a 10mm if you are willing to hit the range monthly. A S&W M-57 or M-58 if your habits are more relaxed. I do like calibers that start with the number "4" in their decimal descriptor.

[Lloyd Smale]

^^^^^^^^^^
good post

[1/2 Yuman]

Nice post 9.3X62 Al. I am always amazed how we can spend days comparing apples and oranges. And naturally, if I like oranges better I will come up with many things to prove they are superior. I do hope the OP, got some answers out of all this. I better go and get my 50 BMG there is another red squirrel in my bird feeder. Cheers

[cwlongshot]

:goodpost:

Couldn't agree more 9.3...

CW

[rsoots]

Nope not so. I purchased A S & W model 610..... 6 !/2 inch barrel for myself last fall and you don't have to even use the moon clips at all for the 10mm ammo. just for the 40 caliber stuff

[gloob]

The better question is 45 vs 10mm. If Browning had invented the 10mm, and it had been used in the 1911 and all the 45ACP firearms of today. And someone tried to introduce the 45ACP, 45 Super/Rowland, 400 Corbon in the 80's? How popular would 45 be as a semiauto handgun cartridge, today?

[M-Tecs]

The better question is 45 vs 10mm. If Browning had invented the 10mm, and it had been used in the 1911 and all the 45ACP firearms of today. And someone tried to introduce the 45ACP, 45 Super/Rowland, 400 Corbon in the 80's? How popular would 45 be as a semiauto handgun cartridge, today?

History basically answered that around 1905. The 40/41/10mm round JMB was working lost out and became nothing more than a foot note in history.

Same for the .38-40 WCF. It was around a long time before the 45ACP and 10mm auto. The .38-40 WCF is a 40cal/10mm. It was not nearly as popular as the 44/40 or the 45 Colt.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-38-40-winchester-center-fire-history-performance/

JMB designed the 45 ACP to meet the requirements of the military. They were not interest in a 40 Cal or a 41 Cal.

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/greatest-cartridges-indispensable-45-acp
Largely as a result of the Philippine experience and the results of the Thompson-LaGarde testing of 1904, the US Army and the US Cavalry decided that a minimum of .45 caliber would be required for any new military handgun.

At the time, Colt and John Browning were working on a .41 caliber cartridge for Browning's newly designed pistol. They then modified both the pistol and cartridge resulting in the Model 1905 pistol and the new .45 ACP cartridge.

The speedy little 38 Super introduced in 1929 didn't fair much better.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-super-38/

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/38-super/

[257X50]

10MM is about a 357
10MM Mag is about 41 mag

I’m reaming out my 10MM single six for 10MM Mag

As you folks with S&W 610 owners can do. Or buy a 41……..

[gunther]

A bench rest shooting friend had a S&W 610 for a while. He sold it because it was so heavy. But, he remarked that it was the most accurate pistol he had ever owned. M57's are pretty well regarded it that department as well. Same friend also had a "Friday" M57, so was never able to honestly compare the two calibers. The frame had never been tapped for the rear sight screw, among other problems. Living east of the Mississippi, power isn't too much of a factor if the caliber is over 40.

[gloob]

45 won partly due to the propellant and bullet technology of the time. Maybe it still has advantages in military use due to Hague convention.

If you can use modern powder and bullets, can a 45 ACP do anything significantly better than 10mm other than reduce capacity by 1-2 rounds? If I could magically transform all my 45ACP cases into 10mm, I might never load 45 ACP again. The main thing I dislike about shooting 10mm is losing cases.

[gloob]

I suppose the 45ACP has advantage for subsonic silencer application. But if it weren't for history and availability, I think 10mm would be more popular than 45ACP. Even if it were downloaded a little. You could say a 45ACP is a downloaded Rowland.

[bowfin]

As a historical side note about efforts to make a zippier .45 cartridge, I bring you the .45 Remington-Thompson: A 250 grain bullet at 1,450 fps, designed for the Thompson submachine gun in order to make it a longer range weapon, closer to a BAR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Remington–Thompson

[bowfin]

Also, I am firmly in the camp of counting the first shot being the most important one, not the 16th shot.

[M-Tecs]

I suppose the 45ACP has advantage for subsonic silencer application. But if it weren't for history and availability, I think 10mm would be more popular than 45ACP. Even if it were downloaded a little. You could say a 45ACP is a downloaded Rowland.

History and consumer choices disagree with you. The LE dropped the 10mm auto. mostly due to recoil. The 40 S&W was to be the replacement, but the 40 S&W has become mostly a footnote in history. Same for the 41 Mag. The 10mm/40cal/41cal mostly have not been very popular with US consumers. The 10MM Auto was heading that direction until the hunting crowd jumped on the bandwagon.

I have several 6" 1911's in 10mm auto. They make an outstanding platform for hunting deer sized game. For a carry gun the modern 9mm bullets make it a better choice for me. For stopping large dangerous animals like grizzly bears my FNX-45 Tactical .460 Rowland Conversion with it's 15 plus 1 capacity leaves the 10mm auto in the dust.

The 45 ACP predates the 460 Rowland by 70 plus years. The 45 ACP is not a downloaded 460 Rowland any more than a 38 special is a downloaded 357 Mag or the 44 Special is a downloaded 44 Mag.

As bowfin pointed out the closest historical relative to the 460 Rowland is the .45 Remington-Thompson.

https://cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/45-remington-thompson-mg/

[Sandspider500]

Linebaugh use to offer a 38-40 with an oversized cylinder. 1800fps from a 6" barrel with 180gr and 1600fps with 200gr.

[gloob]

The government agencies that tried and dropped 10mm switch didn't switch to 45ACP, though. Most of them went to 9mm or 40SW in smaller guns. There are plenty of people and agencies who choose 45ACP, but this isn't based on only what's best.

I choose 44mag over 41mag, simply due to 44 being more common and nearly no functional difference. If they were equally common, I would probably choose 41 for better BC.

I used to at least like 45ACP because it shot clean and accurately with my cast bullets. Even that reason is gone. It was trickier, but I figured out how to do that in all my calibers.

[gloob]

41 mag and 10mm were just ahead of their time. With modern propellant and bullets, they are "better" than 44 mag and 45ACP.

A real footnote in history is the 45GAP. Made so it will fit in the 9mm size handguns and equal the ballistics and bullets of the 45ACP.

40SW will still be popular and common when we're all gone.

[M-Tecs]

41 mag and 10mm were just ahead of their time. With modern propellant and bullets, they are "better" than 44 mag and 45ACP.

A real footnote in history is the 45GAP. Made so it will fit in the 9mm size handguns and equal the ballistics and bullets of the 45ACP.

40SW will still be popular and common when we're all gone.

The same modern propellants and bullets also improve the 44 Mag and the 45 ACP.

I can't speak for all area's but trade in or sale value of 40 S&W's are 20% to 25% less than the same model in a different caliber in this area. After I retired, I worked 3 1/2 years part time at a local Gunshop. Before the Floyd riots, they stopped taking in 40 S&W due to not being able to sell them.

[gloob]

Modern propellant and bullets improve the 45ACP to the point you need a compensator or design a completely new gun to shoot it, though. Or GAP it to make it smaller and still perform the same, but this isn't very popular due to capacity.

The 45-70 is great if all you have is soft lead and pan lube, but we have rifles that can get the same jobs done with less recoil and longer range before the target moves away, if you use modern jacketed bullets or use different alloys, coatings, and gas checks.

Like the 38 special case at original velocity is great if you need to cram it full of black powder. Today we can beat that in a tiny 9mm case.

Between 41 and 44, most of these revolvers are built on the same frames. If you want to hot rod, the 41 will have thicker cylinder walls. A 300 grain bullet might be better for some things, but I think it's almost splitting hairs. Same with 45ACP and 10mm, if you reload. But here, you have a real mag capacity difference.

Maybe soon in the future, we can get 10mm performance out of 40SW case capacity and OAL. Some reloaders have maybe even gone there, already. But I bet their cases don't last very long.

[M-Tecs]

Modern propellant and bullets improve the 45ACP to the point you need a compensator or design a completely new gun to shoot it, though.

That is not how SAAMI spec ammo works.

Please provide some examples any factory 45 ACP or 45 ACP plus P ammo requiring a compensator or design a completely new gun to shoot it though?????

In the 1911 ramped barrels are better for higher pressure rounds but they still shot 45 Super in standard unramped barrels without issues. The 460 Rowland's comp is solely for recoil reduction.

[gloob]

That is not how SAAMI spec ammo works.

Please provide some examples any factory 45 ACP or 45 ACP plus P ammo requiring a compensator or design a completely new gun to shoot it though?????

In the 1911 ramped barrels are better for higher pressure rounds but they still shot 45 Super in standard unramped barrels without issues. The 460 Rowland's comp is solely for recoil reduction.

I didn't mean sticking to SAAMI spec, no.

Rowland goes beyond 10mm. The comp in a 460 Rowland reduces recoil. But if you tried to just put stiffer spring in a 1911 and shoot Rowland levels while taking pain killers, you may have other problems than higher recoil. You may get sticky or failed extraction, because the case is still adhered to the chamber during extraction. You may have to replace the mainspring very often. You might wear out or crack the frame sooner.

But if you went a little beyond SAAMI because you have a modern pistol that has good chamber support and you know what you're doing, you might get similar performance to 10mm, without having to change much in a modern 45ACP pistol. Just lose some mag capacity.

Or you could download a 10mm a little and get similar performance to 45ACP and gain capacity. Or you could load it full tilt and not have to keep your ammo specially marked as "for x gun only."


Semiauto handguns are recoil-operated. Regardless of SAAMI pressure specs, the amount of recoil that the ammunition produces has to remain within a certain range, or you have to make changes like adding compensators or heavier slides. At the upper end, you can get more energy and performance by going faster with a slightly lighter bullet. I.e. skinnier 160-200 grain 10mm vs fatter 185-230 grain 45ACP. You can shoot even lighter bullets in a 45, but if you load them to 10mm level, you're shooting a low sectional density varmint grenade that neither penetrates like a pistol bullet nor produces the damage of a rifle bullet.

[Elpatoloco]

I didn't mean sticking to SAAMI spec, no.

Rowland goes beyond 10mm. The comp in a 460 Rowland reduces recoil. But if you tried to just put stiffer spring in a 1911 and shoot Rowland levels while taking pain killers, you may have other problems than higher recoil. You may get sticky or failed extraction, because the case is still adhered to the chamber during extraction. You may have to replace the mainspring very often. You might wear out or crack the frame sooner.

But if you went a little beyond SAAMI because you have a modern pistol that has good chamber support and you know what you're doing, you might get similar performance to 10mm, without having to change much in a modern 45ACP pistol. Just lose some mag capacity.

Or you could download a 10mm a little and get similar performance to 45ACP and gain capacity. Or you could load it full tilt and not have to keep your ammo specially marked as "for x gun only."


Semiauto handguns are recoil-operated. Regardless of SAAMI pressure specs, the amount of recoil that the ammunition produces has to remain within a certain range, or you have to make changes like adding compensators or heavier slides. At the upper end, you can get more energy and performance by going faster with a slightly lighter bullet. I.e. skinnier 160-200 grain 10mm vs fatter 185-230 grain 45ACP. You can shoot even lighter bullets in a 45, but if you load them to 10mm level, you're shooting a low sectional density varmint grenade that neither penetrates like a pistol bullet nor produces the damage of a rifle bullet.

Hot rodding a semi auto is a fools errand. I have a friend with half a Joker's smile from eating a slide to prove it.
As to the OP. The .41 revolver cartridge, I know exactly zero about. With that said. The nod goes to the dedicated revolver round.

[gloob]

There are a few fools careful enough to create things like 460 Rowland without hurting themselves. You'd be a fool to try to shoot 460 Rowland without the compensator.

The barrel or chamber on a semiauto handgun is never the first thing to fail. It's the slide moving too fast. That can cause failures to extract as well as damage the gun over time, possibly enough to release the slide. Or it's the brass blowing out and resulting in k'B and rapid disassembly of the gun.

I'm too lazy to hot rod. I don't want to separate and inspect brass that closely.

[mnewcomb59]

That is not how SAAMI spec ammo works.

Please provide some examples any factory 45 ACP or 45 ACP plus P ammo requiring a compensator or design a completely new gun to shoot it though?????

In the 1911 ramped barrels are better for higher pressure rounds but they still shot 45 Super in standard unramped barrels without issues. The 460 Rowland's comp is solely for recoil reduction.

Book max standard pressure 230 gr with Power Pistol will go over 1000 fps with a lead bullet. Bump it up a few tenths to +p and you are in Super territory for sure. Same thing with 200 gr lead and Power Pistol/ BE-86 - standard pressure will get that 200 gr going at 1050 fps and a +p gets them to 1100+ fps. Any more power than this and you will want a compensator to control slide speeds.

My 1911 is set up for 45 Super but I just load ACP cases with 200-265 gr lead bullets with full charges of Power Pistol. 23k PSI ACP with lead bullets completely equals the 30k PSI Super with jacketed bullets. 23k PSI with any of the slower powders and lead bullets will beat your gun to DEATH if it isn't completely set up for Super, and if you want to even use mid-range Super data with lead bullets you need the comp along with the firing pin stop, recoil spring, hammer spring, etc.

You need the comp after about 260 power factor because heavy springs alone will give you too much slide velocity on the closing stroke. The comp is a weight plus it has thrust, both things make it delay unlocking. When the 1911 starts to move backwards and still has pressure from running abnormally slow powder such as Blue Dot or AA#9 you will blow cases. Without the comp your slide will open so fast that your magazine can't keep up and it won't chamber a round, which really peens the barrel hood. You will batter your barrel hood from violently chambering the rounds and slamming closed, batter the linkage and your pin hole will beat itself out of round. A comp and 20# recoil spring is infinitely easier on the gun than running a 28# recoil spring and the comped gun will show much less metal peening after 500 rounds. You can run 260-300 power factor in an un-comped gun but you will see peening on the barrel hood, linkage and frame within a few hundred rounds.

Edit: And a little stirring of the pot: When considering safe pressures using optimal powders for each different cartridge -if you make a direct comparison of 200-230 gr weights with lead bullets you will find that 45 ACP +P can equal or exceed 10 mm velocities. If you want to BARELY get your toe over the line into 45 super pressures, such as 25k PSI the 45 leaves it in the dust. Hard to argue with a 255 at 1100 fps or a 230 at 1200 fps. If you wanna run full power Supers with lead there is no comparison. 230 @ 1300 fps for the lead super and 220 at 1100 fps from the 10mm.
5" 10mm is weaker than a 4" 357 with any given bullet weight. 4" 357 can shoot a 180 at 1400 fps with Lil' Gun. Go straight from 9 to 45 - skip the 10.

[Sandspider500]

320839

[M-Tecs]

There are a few fools careful enough to create things like 460 Rowland without hurting themselves. You'd be a fool to try to shoot 460 Rowland without the compensator.

The barrel or chamber on a semiauto handgun is never the first thing to fail. It's the slide moving too fast. That can cause failures to extract as well as damage the gun over time, possibly enough to release the slide. Or it's the brass blowing out and resulting in k'B and rapid disassembly of the gun.

I'm too lazy to hot rod. I don't want to separate and inspect brass that closely.

Do you have any firsthand experience with the 460 Rowland?

If you hang around indoor ranges enough you will see squibs and overcharges and yes the barrels do fail first.

The Rowland in a 1911 has been offered by at least five companies I am aware of. 460 Rowland, Wilson, Clark and two others I don't remember the names of. At least one of them was making them without comps. I've also seen one that used a 6" barrel in a 5" slide. The barrel had ports cut into it but no comp. The no comp 1911 460's are using a 28 pound recoil springs, extra power firing pin springs, flat bottom firing pin stops and a 32-pound hammer springs. Not saying I advocate this but others are doing it successfully. I only know a couple others that are shooting a 460 Rowland. We all view it like a S&W 19/66 with 357 Mags.

Like any semi-auto this a balanced system. History shows they can be done successfully without comps. Yes, the manufacture state not to fire their system without comps. That might be the correct answer for their system or it could be not much more that the proprietary comp is the only item that can't be sourced elsewhere.

Back to the OP's question.


From a practical point of view, what is the primary difference, if any, between the ballistic performance of a 41 Magnum and a 10mm revolver? Obviously the 10mm would have to use moon clips and would fire a slightly smaller diameter bullet but... Beyond that is there any significant difference between these two?

That depends on application. If you need the additional perform the 41 Mag has an edge. If you don't need the additional performance not much difference.

[gloob]

No, I don't. But see mnewcomb's post. He explained this in excruciating detail. Even while staying under SAAMI pressure, you can reach the limit of slide velocity and have to add a comp for other issues well before the barrel fails.

I will stand corrected by mnewcomb, though. He has slightly bested 10mm power levels without even exceeding normal 45 ACP SAAMI pressure with cast 45 bullets and only a heavier spring. And still using 200+ grain bullets.

But you could do that in 10mm, too. I shoot cast bullets in 10mm, but I don't know. I stopped when I reached max load data. Book says the pressure is still way below max. They put that max number there to limit recoil, so the guns sold to people as 10mm will definitely function reliably and safely.

Even though they're under SAAMI pressure for standard pressure 45ACP, mnewcomb would does not advise shooting his loads in a stock 45ACP gun, unless you go higher on the recoil spring and maybe even the hammer spring, too. I don't know what else is involved with "full Super" setup. An ammo manufacturer couldn't sell these to people as 45ACP, even though they are below SAAMI pressure! They will still potentially have reliability issues or damage guns and potentially people who might shoot it out of a stock 45ACP gun.

If you go load cast bullets, out of otherwise identical stock guns in 10mm vs 45ACP, and load beyond the book as far as the gun will function well, you would have basically the same recoil limit. And you will likely reach this limit of recoil/slide-velocity before you reach the SAAMI pressure limit in both cases. So for a given 200 grain bullet, you would have close to equivalent velocity. The 45 boolit will be fatter and shorter and maybe work better on some things. The 10mm will have better BC for longer range shooting and deeper penetration if that matters. But the manufacturers of these guns don't necessarily make them exactly the same. The 10mm versions are often designed to function at higher recoil levels right out of the box, with heavier slides or springs than the 45ACP variant! A 45ACP setup like that might not function reliably with the lower velocity ammo from the gunshop.

So unless you have a reason to shoot extra heavy bullets (at way lower energy levels than possible with 230 or less), the 45ACP doesn't have a power advantage in a normal sized, non-compensated handgun, even if you reload beyond the book to do it. It has smaller mag capacity, no matter what else you want to do.

[mnewcomb59]

When you use slow powders and you switch from jacketed to lead in the 45 you gain a lot of velocity. Especially if you are comparing a 230 WFN to a 230 XTP. Switch from the deep seated XTP to a shallow seated 230 lead and pressures go down and velocity goes up 100 fps. Seat that 230 lead down as deep as the 230 XTP seats to get the same pressure, such as the lee 230 TC, and you gain 150 fps.

Most manuals stop their lead bullet data at velocities that won't beat up a 1911. They don't stop because of pressure.

You guys gotta check out Western 8.0! It has some crazy acp loads with a wide variety of bullet weights and powders. It has so many powders and loads for lots of calibers. How about standard pressure 300 gr 45 LC with every single powder? What about 395 grain 45 LC standard pressure and +P? How about 38 special from 110 grains up to 230 grains (where it gives the ACP a run for its money!)?

[gloob]

Most manuals stop their lead bullet data at velocities that won't beat up a 1911. They don't stop because of pressure.

You are exactly right. The max lead bullet data with appropriate powder stops because the slide velocity will cause problems with some stock 45ACP semiauto handguns. The pressure won't be the the issue. In addition to the wear issue you noted and the mag springs not being able to keep up in your guns (1911's?), you may get failures to extract in some handgun designs. The bullet leaves the barrel and pressures have dropped, but the slide moved so fast that the case is still stuck to the chamber when extraction is supposed to occur. The brass takes a little longer to contract and peel away from the chamber, even after pressure drops to safe levels.

So I have already said this. I agree. If you reload adventurously but still safely, you could say 10mm and 45ACP are pretty equivalent given stock sized handguns, other than BC and sectional density and capacity. I think 10mm is better for the BC and mag capacity reasons. And definitely easier to get higher power if you want to just stick to your average reloading manual max data.

There may be more reliable pressure data for 45ACP at higher velocities than normal, due to calibers like 45 Super and more people pushing the limits and sharing data. And you might get there easier with cast bullets without fouling, due to larger diameter and lower pressure to get there. I use gas checks for my 10mm, and I never had to do that with 45ACP.

You can potentially exceed 10mm power with lead bullets, maybe. But only once you start adding compensators or larger guns. And you can greatly exceed 10mm power with jacketed, too, in these larger guns, if you don't consider using thicker Super brass and higher SAAMI pressures as cheating. The 45ACP case is bigger than it needs to be for what it originally did. The 10mm isn't. The extra length is necessary over 40SW, unlike how they made the 357 case slightly longer MOSTLY so you wouldn't accidentally put it in a 38 special revolver. The 357 case is only significantly faster to a 357 reloader when shot in longer barrels than say 4-6 inches.

[mnewcomb59]

Yeah I think the comp kills the handiness and form factor, plus you need a new holster in some cases. And it makes it so much louder. I don't want to use the compensator, that's why my top loads don't go past low end Super velocity. Since I'm not getting into Super pressures I just run regular ACP brass. My barrel is throated so I can load most bullets longer to mag length which reduces pressures further. Why shoot a 30k PSI load at 1.18" from the book when you can load the same bullet out to 1.24" and get the same velocity at 22k PSI.

In my unsupported barrel I quit when there is just the barest hint of a bulge near the case web (which you will see on most factory +p ammo), and usually I quit before I reach that point because of recoil and slide velocity. I think I got the Lee 200-RF up to about 1300 fps with Power Pistol before I saw pressure when I loaded it out to 1.24" but accuracy was lower than the 1200 fps load and was starting to outrun my Wolff extra power magazine spring. I can run the 265s at around 1000 fps, 230s at 1080 fps and 200s at 1150 fps all under 23k PSI. The trick is the throated barrel that gives you a longer OAL and more case capacity when using flat nose or HP bullets. I don't always shoot loads that powerful but I will tell you for sure that I never shoot light loads in the 45. That's what 9s and 38s are for. The lightest loads I shoot out of this 1911 are 200gr at 1050 fps and a 265 at 850 fps. I won a few bullseye matches with lighter springs and the 200-RF at 800 fps, but I felt like I was wasting lead and primers.

My usual workup process is to pick an ACP jacketed load, sub in powder coated bullet with similar shape and seating depth, then work up and see how much extra velocity the lead gets me. Lets say a load should get 1000 with a 200 gr JHP at 1.18" and with a powder coated 200 FN seated to the same seating depth (OAL may vary) it goes 1100. Then I will increase OAL because my gun is throated, work back up to the 1100 fps, and since case volume is now much greater and pressures are lower, I know I can increase the charge and additional .3-.8 gr before hitting max pressure for another 75 fps or so.

I would say 10mm and 45 ACP have roughly equal data availability - that is to say you have to look through lots of modern sources to find what you are looking for. Some 10mm data is only loaded to 30k psi in some of my manuals, and some other manuals it is loaded to 35k psi. You have to focus on the slow powder loads and check about 4 different sources before you start to find some "full power" looking data. Alliant, Hodgdon and Western all list a bunch of warm 40 data and you gotta dig to find the hot 10mm with slow powders. Same thing for 45 ACP - you gotta check lots of newer sources. Alliant is really proud of their new Sport Pistol and BE-86 and they have lots of lead bullet loads listed within the past year or two. Western 8.0 has lots of full power ACP but mostly all jacketed, so you really don't see how fast the lead bullets would go. The 45 might have an advantage if you were going off the reservation to use Super data as a sanity check. It seems that pressures build in a linear fashion from 20-30k in the load data as you go from ACP to Super. 10mm your best sanity check is GlockTalk lol and seeing what those crazy guys have loaded with 800-X and cast bullets, which is a little less reliable.

For a real sanity check, on GlockTalk they talk about 45 Super and 45 SUPER. The all-caps is Rowland pressures and load data that they run out of comped Glocks with two magazine springs in each magazine. 265s at 1300 fps

[gloob]

I don't like extra loudness, either. Worse yet is the ported shotgun.

I wonder if you couldn't still shoot these 45 "SUPER" loads with a little heavier "compensated barrel" with no holes in comp. Obviously with more muzzle flip and felt recoil.

Or just add some more weight to the slide. Most people would just pony for a custom slide. I have more than once imagined milling the sides of a slide flat and just brazing on another layer of steel. And I've never gone past book loads. That's just how I think.

I like your style, though, on the 45 sorta-Super. I spent a lot of time trying to find a cheap 40SW barrel for my 10mm, so I could do something similar. Lengthen the leade and load 40SW cases as long as possible for 180 grain bullets. But I gave up due to the cost.

It was cheaper for me to buy some 10mm cases... and keep shooting 45ACP more than 10mm! Seems like you found the more practical way for a reloader to get full 10mm+ power with common 45ACP cases.

(Yeah, I know you can shoot 40SW out of a 10mm barrel, as is. Try it with cast bullet, though. Then wonder why they smoke so much.)

[M-Tecs]

You have your answer here. I do find it interesting that long slides don't need a comp? Is it the extra mass or the fact that threaded long slide barrels" 1911 threaded barrels are not very common?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCEBSzxhPlo

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsAiSN4AX2M

[mnewcomb59]

I have seen the guide rods that are basically a coil over strut and have wondered how they would do. I know cheap OEM shocks on pickups don't last too long. I wonder how long till you blow the shock and that slide starts beating the gun. Gotta say it looks impressive though. That looked like about a 12# recoil spring. I have daydreamed about a lead plate that goes in the red dot cutouts on the slides, and I have also thought about stick on wheel weights on the slide lol. But if bubba's gotta put stick on wheel weights on his 1911 slide to keep it under control I wouldn't wanna be too close to him on the firing line.

[gwpercle]

The Difference ...The 41 magnum has a rim...
... and my avatar is a 41 magnum... it suits me , I like it !
Gary

[gloob]

I wonder how long till you blow the shock and that slide starts beating the gun.
Spring wore out on my baby glock real quick. Dual spring but no strut. I was shooting the cheapest ammo from the store, which happened to be S&B 40SW ball ammo. Harsh recoil but I just manned up. Maybe 4-5 boxes of shooting solely this ammo over a few shooting sessions. Then I tried to shoot some reloads that were slightly too hot (book load for cast but using plated bullets, but shot fine out of my other 40), and I got the harshest recoil impulse and failures to extract. I bought a new recoil spring for the Glock and the old one was already worn out, failing to get the slide into full battery on a round when pointed up.

If by strut, there's a gas piston in there? I'd trust that to last better than an overworked spring. If it works once, it'll last until it lasts. And I guess you'll know the instant it fails. The spring being over-tweaked repeatedly can get weaker each time.

[M-Tecs]

I have seen the guide rods that are basically a coil over strut and have wondered how they would do. I know cheap OEM shocks on pickups don't last too long. I wonder how long till you blow the shock and that slide starts beating the gun. Gotta say it looks impressive though. That looked like about a 12# recoil spring. I have daydreamed about a lead plate that goes in the red dot cutouts on the slides, and I have also thought about stick on wheel weights on the slide lol. But if bubba's gotta put stick on wheel weights on his 1911 slide to keep it under control I wouldn't wanna be too close to him on the firing line.

It's a simple air brake with no seals too go bad. It's not as new design. It's used a fair amount in various types of rifle and shotgun buffer assemblies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSiWw-nxe9o&t=232s


More details here https://recoil-technology-systems.com/460-rowland-v2.html#/