Frenck MAS 49/56

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Yes the MAS's gas system is nothing like the M14, but the rifle was in use about the same times or before the M14. You are correct it's more like the Ljungman then the other two you mentioned. Mainly because the MAS is a direct gas impingement rifle. Now it's like many others in bolt lock up...that is SKS, FN's, and any others that used the tilting breech block design. The MAS was engineered before the Nazis occupied France. That stopped it's production and the plans for it were evacuated to England. England didn't want to make so it sat idle till after the war. I believe had it been made and the British used it that it would have made the Garand second place. There's not much to fault with the MAS. The grenade launcher is built in, the rifle is light, it's magazine fed, can use stripper clips, and has fully adjustable peep sights. A not on the gas impingement system is that, unlike the M16, doesn't dump any of it's gas inside the receiver and the rifle runs clean and cool.

Now to your unfriendly remarks about since I'll be shooting it so it will shoot high velocity with accuracy and small groups I'll say this. One it's going to be scoped. Two it has a pretty decent trigger. Three talking to a Frenchman well versed in these rifle I was told that the barrels were nothing short of match grade. I can tell you they are four groove, left hand twist, with a 1 in 11 twist. I've shot some decent groups with the peeps, but I want to see what it's capable of doing.

Joe

[crazy mark]

I have a 49/56 that I shoot cast in and it is scoped with a compact scope so the brass won't hit it. It is very accurate and my only problem is getting the loads right so it doesn't sling brass. I don't want to modify the gas port. I'm not sure where to place it with-in the m-14/garand arena but I sure do like mine. I do think the mag catch is kind of funky however. Mark

[StarMetal]

I have a 49/56 that I shoot cast in and it is scoped with a compact scope so the brass won't hit it. It is very accurate and my only problem is getting the loads right so it doesn't sling brass. I don't want to modify the gas port. I'm not sure where to place it with-in the m-14/garand arena but I sure do like mine. I do think the mag catch is kind of funky however. Mark

Mark,

I made an adjustable gas valve for mine. It replaces the one that just turns the gas off or on for the grenade launcher. When installed you can't tell it's changed. With that said I dial in the amount of gas I need and mine tosses the empties about 2.5 feet. I have a compact scope that's not so short so I have an aluminum buffer around it. Here's a pic of it next to the original:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/MAS.jpg
Mr Gibson made some snide remarks about insulting the M14 with the MAS 49/56, but I think it's a better rifle then the Garand and M14 both. The French make some excellent product and the workmanship and steel on their MAS 49/56 are among the best in the world. The fact that it worked well in Vietnam is testimonial to that.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Joe

I will not entertain a pissing contest with you on this subject. You referenced the M49/56 as being M14 like. It is not and I pointed that out. You like the French rifle and we're all sure you will shoot it well, you shoot everything well so why not this one. (If you can't handle a compliment at least refrain from assuming it as "snide") You seem to like the M49/36 and that is fine. It did indeed do a great job in Vietnam right up until Dien Bien Phu, just like everything else French. I managed to play with a couple M49s we captured in a cache. There was even some old French ammunition. Since I had an M14 at the time it made for an interesting comparison. I found the the M49 not to be comparable to the M14 in any manor. However, you have the "improved" version, the M49/56, and you think well of it. After all you bought it so you should think well of it and you will shoot it and as I said it will no doubt do well. We have confidence in your ability (that could be construed as a compliment also). I will be interested in your results, did you really think otherwise?

State what you wish, I will not make any further comments until you post results. Even then I may find nothing of interest to post about. Have fun:-)

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

You said you didn't want to get into a urine contest with me (which by the way folks if I used the words he did I got many pm's from the moderators, but Larry is privileged I see) you had better not say things like this: The french did hijack the trigger mechanism from the M1 Garand though. You see folks Larry can fool some of the posters some of the time, but not all the posters all of the time with his eloquent wording and military experience. Now you all go to this website: http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FSA%201917.html and you determine for yourselves who stole what from whom. Yes it's in French but the diagrams aren't and you'll see that Garand trigger mechanism was employed on some very early French rifles far before the Garand was even a dream.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

If one really cares you can do a complete research on the "hook system" type of trigger/hammer mechanism. If you bother to do that you will find it was actually developed by John Browning for use on his automatic shotgun. There are numerous references to this in Small Arms of the World and numerous other publications. Mr. Garand modified it as did a Monsieur Saive who had close association with John Browning at FN. I believe the Siave system is that used in the M49, M49/56 and the similar Fn M1949 and the FN FAL series. These all have the same similar trigger mechanisms and tilting bolts. I guess it's really hard to say who stole what from whom but the Garand modified system was designed, put into production and was quite successful., all that not to mention the trigger mechanism of the M1 Carbine. All was well in use before the M49 and the later M49/56 used a similar trigger mechanism. It was the M49/56 of which I made my comment about. That was the subject of discussion with it’s comparison to the M14 (which does indeed have the Garand trigger mechanism) not the French M1917 or any other rifles. The Small Arms of the World and other publications (non French) all seem to agree that the M49/56’s trigger is a copy of the M1 Garand’s, every publication except the French of course.

I mention these facts only to clarify. Now I am indeed finished with this thread and moving on.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

If one really cares you can do a complete research on the "hook system" type of trigger/hammer mechanism. If you bother to do that you will find it was actually developed by John Browning for use on his automatic shotgun. There are numerous references to this in Small Arms of the World and numerous other publications. Mr. Garand modified it as did a Monsieur Saive who had close association with John Browning at FN. I believe the Siave system is that used in the M49, M49/56 and the similar Fn M1949 and the FN FAL series. These all have the same similar trigger mechanisms and tilting bolts. I guess it's really hard to say who stole what from whom but the Garand modified system was designed, put into production and was quite successful., all that not to mention the trigger mechanism of the M1 Carbine. All was well in use before the M49 and the later M49/56 used a similar trigger mechanism. It was the M49/56 of which I made my comment about. That was the subject of discussion with it’s comparison to the M14 (which does indeed have the Garand trigger mechanism) not the French M1917 or any other rifles. The Small Arms of the World and other publications (non French) all seem to agree that the M49/56’s trigger is a copy of the M1 Garand’s, every publication except the French of course.

I mention these facts only to clarify. Now I am indeed finished with this thread and moving on.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Same old same old...simply put you're full of it. You need to do some research old boy. The way you wishy washy everything you'll tie the Garand with David's sling back in the Biblical days. I've done it for you:

The forgotten developmental history of the M1 Garand (http://preparednesssubculture.blogspot.com/2009/10/forgotten-developmental-history-of.html)



The forgotten developmental history of the "All American" M1 Garand rifle
- OR -
A funny thing happened in France on the way to find a Main Battle Rifle.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1garandside.jpg


The United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 aka - "M1 Garand"

The United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 designed by John C. Garand often with the same reverence of a god or the Titan Prometheus the giver of fire. Just as Zeus's warning to Prometheus that every gift brings a penalty - that man is happy as long as he does not gain the knowledge that can change his world.

Mr. Garand's rifle would certainly play a part in the changes in the world. How could the M1 be any less with production in the multiple millions, the M1 rifle had the highest front line infantry distribution of any issued semi-automatic rifle of the World War II.

All American military firearms collectors have all heard the story of the later development of of the M1 rifle by John Garand, his tenacity in wanting the "primer actuated" action and his quick development of the .30 caliber rifle over the earlier .276 experiments. Our question is where did all this come from, why the .276 and where do we trace the ideas and origins of the M1?http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1Garand_w_proto.jpg
Mr. Garand with one of his prototypes (note the cocking handle and op rod).

While I was researching the development of the French MAS 49-56 rifle I came across a comment, "...the trigger group from the MAS is so similar to the M1 it must have been a development from the M1."

Because the French MAS auto-loading rifles dates of development are far too early for this to be the case I started to find connections and they start in France.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/RSCMle1917Side.jpg
The RSC Mle.1917 French auto-loading rifle.

Where did it start? The connection starts with the then new weapon, designed by Ribeyrolle, Sutter and Chauchat, a rifle that would become the Le fusil automatique de 8 mm RSC modele 1917 or RSC Mle. 1917.

Over 80 thousand rifles of RSC Mle. 1917 were produced for the French army in 1918. France arming it's soldiers in large numbers with a self-loading rifle was a forward thinking concept at the time. The production numbers of the RSC Mle.1917 show a clear intent of France to equip many of it's infantry with the rifle and attempt to change their battlefield tactical procedures.

But we need to back up a bit and talk about Mr. Garand and the connection to the Le fusil automatique de 8 mm RSC modele 1917 or RSC Mle.1917 and Mle. 1918.

Mr. Garand was born Jean Cantius Garand born in Quebec part of a French speaking family, later Mr. Garand was to list his name in the Anglo form John. There are many articles and books focused on his famous rifle that describe some of Mr. Garand's poor childhood and his early entry into machine design. Mr. Garand's talents for mechanical devices and unusual ideas fill more than a few pages of historical reviews. I find Mr. Garand's story in many ways similar to some of the aspects of Mr. Kalashnikov and his talents. Both men seem to be tireless tinkering mechanical obsessives with a few eccentricities (a sign of creativity).

What is almost always missing is the work Mr. Garand did with Springfield Arsenal where he was involved with attempts to adapt the RSC Mle. 1918 design to the 30-06 cartridge. With this early Springfield Arsenal we ow we have our direct connection from early concept rifle to the development of the United States Rifle, Caliber .30/M1.

So now we can clearly review how French rifle design had such a large impact on military rifles. The question is why is this rifle so forgotten when it clearly is so important to military self-loading rifle history?

My conclusion was that the "all American rifle" indeed had a French grandfather and a French Canadian father. Who would have guessed that M1 would have been that French in lineage. The closer you look the more connections you can make in the relationship from one rifle to the other. I would even hazard a guess that the .276 was a reaction to the problems with higher pressure cartridges and auto-loading rifles like the RSC Mle.1917, metallurgy would of course later improve negating that concern.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/RSCMle1917OpenOpRod.jpg
RSC Mle.1917 with bolt and op rod in the reward position.

It is like the first time you find the connection from sewing machines and gun manufacturing and strangely history becomes interesting, unlike your old boring classes in school.

Lets start with a simple review of the two rifles with photographs.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/RSCMle1917TriggerGroup.jpg
The RSC Mle. 1917 trigger group.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1TriggerGroup.jpg
The M1 Garand trigger group (note the improvements).

As you can see from the photos there are clear indications that the US M1 and even later rifles have trigger groups that show a mechanical lineage to this rifle. The spring and detents of the RSC Mle. 1917 look a lot like same parts in the much later M16 as the mechanism of the RSC Mle. 1917 is quite simple. I thought it was noteworthy how you can see the development and the source from the RSC Mle. 1917 to the M1 Garand.

The operating rod is so obvious that I am surprised this has not been noted more often (if at all).
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/RSCMle1917OpRodOpen2.jpg
RSC Mle.1917 side view with operating rod highlighted.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/RSCMle1917OpRod.jpg
RSC Mle.1917 operating rod disassembled from the rifle.

continued in next post..........

[StarMetal]

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1garandsideOpRod.jpg
M1 Garand side view with operating rod highlighted.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1OpRod.jpg
M1 Garand operating rod on a partly disassembled rifle, highlighted in blue.
RSC Mle.1917 worm's eye side view of the "en block" clip highlighted, note that this rifle was designed to have the clip inserted from the bottom after the casing was rotated forward.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1_T3E1enBlock.jpg
M1 Garand .276 prototype with side view of the "en block" clip highlighted in blue.


The bolt group - ahead of it's time?

Some views of the bolt group from both rifles you can clearly see the rotating mechanism and how the RSC Mle.1917 connects to it's flat op rod and how the M1 Garand has a "floating" connection slide built into the op rod.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/RSCMle1917Bolt.jpg
RSC Mle.1917 bolt and bolt face.

Note how the cocking handle knob threads onto a protruding shaft to connect to the op rod. Note the multiple lugs on the bolt, this complexity is one of the binding areas for contamination and fouling.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1Bolt.jpg
M1 rifle's bolt and bolt face.

Note the improvements and similarities from the M1 bolt and it's predecessor.

Patent drawings comparing the two rifle designs.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/RSCMle1917Drawing.jpg
RSC Mle.1917 rifle drawing, note the relationship of the working parts.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1drawing.jpg
Mr. Garand's .276 prototype drawings.http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa244/RadioFlyerphotos/M1920GarandProto.jpg
As an historical item, Mr. Garand's Springfield Arsenal magazine fed prototype rifle for consideration.

You should stay away as your information as usual isn't correct. The almighty John Garand isn't so almighty. That's not to say anything bad about his rifle, it's a great rifle.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I shot the MAS today with two bullets, the 314299 (sized to .313) and the 311284 (sized to .309) both lubed with my soap lube, my aluminum gas checks. The load was 29 grains of Accurate 4895 with the 45 2.1 "technique" and although I didn't chrono it, it was a fairly hot load. The group directly to the 9 o'clock of the bull are the five 311284's and the scattered ones are the 314299's except for one which was in that 284 group. The vertical stringing was me as the scope is high and I really need a cheek piece on the rifle.
Joe
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/MASGROUP.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

Hmmmmm...straight from a "blog" with no reference given or even the authors name.....now there's a reference for you! Sorry but I prefer to stick with publications and referneces of some reknown. Let me see now, Garand isn't almighty and Kalashnikov didn't really design the AK....secrets discovered by Joe. What is next? Who really designed the m1911" Who really designed the revolver? I'm sure Joe will tell us it wasn't Browning and Colt because he has discovered the truth on the internet! My oh, oh my........yaaaawwwnnnn.........

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Hmmmmm...straight from a "blog" with no reference given or even the authors name.....now there's a reference for you! Sorry but I prefer to stick with publications and referneces of some reknown. Let me see now, Garand isn't almighty and Kalashnikov didn't really design the AK....secrets discovered by Joe. What is next? Who really designed the m1911" Who really designed the revolver? I'm sure Joe will tell us it wasn't Browning and Colt because he has discovered the truth on the internet! My oh, oh my........

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

Larry,

More baloney from you....as per usual.

Joe

[craigf]

Brilliant write-up StarmMetal. No doubt many of the boys on the M1 and M14 forums will be crying in their beer. Nationalism and its accompanying pride are one thing but it has to be balanced with objective fact.

You have my support on this.

[Radio Flyer]

Because that blog post was originally from my website and was not intended for a large audience but rather a small group of regular readers, I thought I would list the research sources (and add them to the website).

I tried to gather as much on this issue as I could with my limited ability to read French and other english sources.

Information gathered from:

Small Arms of the World: A Basic Manual of Small Arms (12th revised edition)
By - Edward Clinton Ezell

Proud Promise
French Autoloading Rifles, 1989-1979
By - Jean Huon

The FN-49, The last elegant old-world military rifle
By - Wayne Johnson

Le fusil FN FAL expliqué
Par - G. Henrotin

Armes à feu de l'Armée française 1860 à 1940
Par - Jean Martin chez Crepin Leblond

L'Armement De L'Infanterie Francaise 1918-1940
éditeur - Argout - Gazette des armes

la grande aventure des fusils réglementaires français 1866-1936
éditeur - Argout - Gazette des armes

La Notice Sur Le Fusil à Répétition De 7,5 Mm. Modèle 1936
éditeur - Charles Lavauzelle & Cie

It would follow that Garand would have been given French rifles and materials to review because he was from a French Canadian family and would have had a better than average command of the language for Springfield.

It is clear from the design that the Garand is a derivative of many of the French designs. It would also follow that many of the French designs would have had some influence from FN in Belgium as there are many contacts with the French and Belgians. The swing-hook-hammer design of the trigger most likely DID come from Browning, again showing the vast importance of JM Browning's creative influence on the history of firearms.

It is also clear that the United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 was a departure in design for Garand as all of his original work was rejected, he clearly was influenced by the RSC Mle.1917 for the M1 and that does not lesson the importance of the M1 in it's historical impact.

What I would propose is that categorizing Garand in the same place as JM Browning is a bit unreasonable and possibly disrespectful of JM Browning who has list upon list of creative accomplishments verses Garand, it's a bit like Zeus to Orpheus. That does not degrade Orpheus but not in the same league as Zeus.

[primersp]

good post star metal
the first model was order by the french navy is small quantity and serve in indochine war
in 1949-1954 on the ""demi-brigade de fusilliers marins " or commado PONCHARDIER.
the first 49/56 were as snipper rifle in the algérian opération 1954-1962.
in this time in indochine and algéria the troops carry us weapons(usm1,bar,garand) or french
(some in 7,65long pa mac 35-"calamiteux" machine gun pm 35 begining of the indochina war and after mat 49 in 9mm and mas 36)
hope i can help
regards
ANDRE