lead oxide coating, i think

[jbunny]

well i soaked some reject bullets in some battery acid that was diluted for
anodizzeing aluminum. i let them soak for 2 days and they turned dark gray.
i rinse them in cold water and again in bakeing soda to nutralize the acid residue.
i dried them on a towel and run some through the lee sizzer dry. there is
deffinately a herd slippery coating on them as normaly after 2 or 3 bullets
i'm standing on the lever to push them through. the black coating stayed on after sizzeing. now i have to try full strenght batt acid, hydrocloric acid(toilet bowl cleaner)
these hydrocloric acid soaked bullets would be good for gut shooting deer. it would get rid of the stink. hehehe. i also soaked some in copper wood perservitive, geen tinge
bullets but i don't thik it would do any good. more sperimenting needed.:redneck:
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q273/MOUICH/coatedbullets.jpg

[lwknight]

If you are standing on the sizer handle, I would think that they are not slippery. Or you got em really hard.
What is the goal of acid soaking boolits?
Might be wrong but, I thought battery acid was Sulfuric. Is there such a thing as lead sulfate?

[jbunny]

u haveing problems reading minds??? i'm sorry, my writeing skills leave
something to be desired. these boolits whent through the sizzer real slick
with no effert on the handle. normaly with no lube the stick. i asked for some chemical
engineer help a week ago but nobody wants to help me:cry: the hard coating
on bullets would eliminate the need for PP. that my story and i'm sticking to it.
oh the botom 3 boolits in the pic have not been sized
jb

[GLL]

Lead plus hydrochloric acid will produce lead chloride which is white not black.

Lead plus sulfuric acid will produce lead sulfate which is also white.

Make sure there is no antimony in those bullets of unknown composition if you experiment with the various acids (also of unknown composition)!

Jerry
__________________

[jbunny]

Jerry; u have just been nominated as my professor. tell me more about antimony
and acids????
what i'm trying to do is copy the hard coating on car battery posts. hopefuly
the hard coating would resist gas cutting like paper patching. i know, half
off u think i'm nuts, however i'm haveing a ball.:grin:
jb

[lwknight]

I thought that the protective coating on barrery posts was graphite.

[yondering]

jbunny, I see what you're doing; sounds interesting. Something to try: stand up a few of the boolits in a pan, and melt them with a propane torch. While they are melting, does the black coating resist melting more than the lead inside?

On a side note, if you have to use a lot of force to size unlubed boolits, your sizer needs some polishing. Every Lee push-through sizer I've ever seen needed to be polished, so this isn't surprising. It's a pretty quick and simple process, and has been described on this forum a bunch of times.

[303Guy]

I've done something similar. My objective was to copper or brass plate the boolits.

Acids on lead alloy produces a blackish coating. Battery acid is indeed sulphuric but hydrochloric does the same thing if I remember correctly. (No idea why).

The part that is new to me is the resistance of this black coating to friction! Mmmm .... Something we need to look into, methinks. Thanks for the info, jbunny.

P.S. Nice pic!

[jbunny]

well yondering; that was a good idea for the melt test. the black coating stayed
in place and the inside lead ran down. i have 40 more in full strengh batt acid and
the full strengh is working a lot faster as just overnight they are getting black.
got to buy a batt hydrometer to tell me when the acid is getting weak. me thinks
we should name these boolits **hard skin boolits**. HS for short. i have good vibes
about this process. lots more sperimenting needed. i would like to know what
Jerry was talking about antimony and acid??? anyhow it's -35 here this AM and
i'll be staying close to the heater and puter.
jb

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q273/MOUICH/melttest2.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q273/MOUICH/melttest.jpg

[1874Sharps]

Jbunny,

I could not make sense chemically out of the postings until a thought struck me. Are you using acid from an actual battery? Is it possible that there are copper ions in the battery acid? Perhaps copper is precipitating out of the acid onto the boolit, as it has a higher oxidation/reduction potential than lead. Copper will often appear dark in color when it does this. Those of you who have placed an iron nail in a copper sulfate solution in chemistry class know what I am speaking of.

[jbunny]

mr 1874 sharps; i know diddly squat about chenistry. well thats not entierly true.
i know that rum mixed with coke makes a good drink:smile: back to square one.
when your car or tractor or??? won't start u check the battery post for corrosion.
i knoticed that scrapeing the corosion of the post and cable terminals that the
skin on such is extermly hard until u get through it and hit lead. now the acid im useing
is new fresh stuff. i plan on leaveing some in there for a week and see what happens.
who knows, mabe when i turn the lights in the shop ther will be a big hydrogen gas
kaboom. when i went to school, there was only 3 subjects that i was interested in.
girls, girls, girls. now u know why i don't nothing.:smile:
jb

[1874Sharps]

Jbunny,

You probably understand women far better than I do!!!

[jbunny]

1874sharps; the fact is A Einstine could not figure out women so there
is no hope for us common people:smile: back on track, i wonder how lead boolits
would react in allum solution??? they take old car batterys, drain, rinse, and fill
them up with alum solution and get another 4 years type thing out of the batterys.
u can buy new batt called sodiom silicate,(alum). it would be nice if we could find
some common household chemical like vinegar or other more freindly chemical
that would make a hard skin boolit. whats that saying, 1% insperation, 99%
persperation. at -35 even my brain is sluggish.:smile:

[lwknight]

The corosion on the posts is from hydrogen gas and oxygen gas and who knows what else.
Anytime a battery is working/charging gasses are expelled. Soaking in acid might get to the same point. I'm just suggesting that there may be other things going on to.
Anyway this is interesting.

Back in the day, WWII it was a janitor that suggested to Elmer Keith and some engineers that they were lighting the wrong end of the powder charge in the machine gun ammo.
This bacame a super classified secret during the war.
Even the simplest idea could be revolutionary , so to speak.

[whisler]

Jbunny: Certain lead salts are more easily absorberd into the body than others. If I remember correctly (and I may not), Lead Acetate {lead and acetic acid (vinegar)} is very easily absorbed. Be careful and check this out before you try it.

[jbunny]

thanks whisler. i will wear rubber gloves for sure. i got this wicked headace
this afternoon and i can hardly see straight. i boiled some boolits in a real strong
watersoftener salt solution for about 3 hrs. would that of given off any kind of gas??
the boolits did not change color. i have not taken them out of the pot yet. this is a old
pot that won't be used for cooking food.
regards with a bad headace and shivvering cold
jb

[lwknight]

You boiled lead in salt water!! You get a headache from the clorine gas released.
In fact almost anything you do to salt other than eating it releases clorine.

[jbunny]

[smilie=s: ok guys. help!!! i need some 20-20 forsight. the weather is going to break
in a few days and from -35 go to +5 and rain. whooo hoooo. i plan on going outside
and concentraeing some battery acid on a small stove. would concentrated
hydrocloric acid be better than sulfuric??? what about bleach, how would that react
to WW lead alloy. how about potasium nitrate?? amonia nitrate??? anything else
that u can think off that would work. i will be heading to town shortly before

i contract cabin fever.
thanks
jb

[lwknight]

jbunny, any concentrated acid is very hazardous. I doubt that you can get pure hydrocloric acid. I hope not. Pure hydrocloric can totally disolve your bones through your flesh.
Learned that at a demo working in an alkie unit.
You can 5% hydrocloric at the hardware/paint store. Its called muratic acid and even at 5% its still pretty nasty.
Sulfuric will react violently when water is added if in pure state.
You can put acid in water but nrver can you put water in acid and tell about it.

[jbunny]

thanks lwknight. i can get industrial toilet bowl bowl cleaner here i think is 40%
hydrocloric. is there anything else that would react with WW lead alloy. how
would a strong oxidizer like postasium permanganate do to lead???
regards
jb

[Echo]

1874sharps; the fact is A Einstine could not figure out women so there
is no hope for us common people:smile:

Not to hijack the thread, but did you know Albert married his cousin? She was mammarily well-developed, and Albert had developed a theory that it was better to indulge (sexually) with well-developed kinfolks. He called this his "Theory of Relativetitty".

[jbunny]

echo; 10,000 commedians out of work and your trying to crack jokes?:razz:
i'll have to remember that theory.:redneck:
jb

[303Guy]

Pure hydrocloric can totally disolve your bones through your flesh.
That would be hydrofluric acid. Got some on my finger tips once - lifted part of my finger nails off! And yes, it will dissolve your bones through your flesh!

If I may suggest staying with the battery acid. That's what worked. It needs to be pretty dilute (which battery acid is) and it needs time for whaterver is happening to happen. When I turned my boolits black quickly using a electric current, it was soft and came off on my fingers.

[jbunny]

update on the HS (hard skin) boolits. lead is slow to react sulfuric acid. they use lead
lined tanks for processes that use sulfuric acid. the acid forms a coating on the surface
and protects itself. hudrocloric acid will strip that protected coating on the lead.
organic acids such vinegar realy atack lead. on one site they advised not to store
lead in oak desks as the fumes from the oak would eat the lead. yes there is such a thing as lead oxide. and when i typed this querry on google, up came my posts
on cast boolits. big brother has no problem on evesdroping on who is doing what.
i have also been reading up on electroless nickle plateing. very interesting. it
forms a even coating on eregular surfaces and can be aplied to plastic surface
as well. there is a solution that has teflon in it for low friction sliding surface .
this electroless plating can be soldered and welded. it is expensive. if we could make our own. maybee use tin and zinc instead of nickle. i have to do more reserch on
parkerizeing. the zinc sulfate sounds interesting to me. that would way to use up scrap
zinc wheel weights. i have to give my old brain a rest before i pop a fuse.
later
jb

[303Guy]

:Fire:
... lead is slow to react sulfuric acid. they use lead lined tanks for processes that use sulfuric acid. the acid forms a coating on the surface and protects itself.And therein lies the answer! This needs to tried and tested. You might be onto something!

This gives me an idea. For paper patching one is not supposed to let any lead touch the bore. Well, if'n I were to patch a bore sized boolit at just the rear, creating a bore riding shape, the forward section could be protected by this black, sulfuric acid formed coating, solving the problem!


... on one site they advised not to store lead in oak desks as the fumes from the oak would eat the lead.That will explain why some lead tips and boolits turn white and nasty! Some even in their original cardboard box!

[mpmarty]

lets all keep in mind that ww has other stuff in it besides lead tin and antimony. Arsenic and acid dosen't sound like a pleasant cocktail to me.

[303Guy]

Arsenic and acid dosen't sound like a pleasant cocktail to me. Good point!

I have only once ever heard of arsenic poisening from casting boolits. That was recently and apparently it made the poor fellow very sick. He did his casting in a small garden shed.

At least with acid treating boolits, they can be put in a well ventilated area and only need tending to at the start and end of the process. Stil .... worth keeping in mind!:violin:

[jbunny]

my new permanent acid bath setup. wally world on sale $6. came with 4
small trays inside. i drilled a bunch of 3/16 holes in the bottom and sides and
a 5/16 inch hole in the ends of the trays. i made a removeable handle to
lift the trays in and out. i leave one side of the cover unlatched for pressure
released. i'm realy itchin to go and shoot some of these black buties. i have
cold weather rigamortis in my hands:razz:
jb
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q273/MOUICH/newacidbath.jpg

[lwknight]

Cold weather rigamortis. LOL
Thats what I will tell my wife wen she wants something done outside.