Trailblazer
05-19-2006, 03:29 PM
These posts by Buck Elliot were made on leverguns.com in a 4 page thread. I saved Buck's posts from the thread. This is all I know about the tests. It appears that Elliot worked for or with Freedom Arms on this test.
Enjoy! And now Buck Elliot's words:
Just remember that pressure is always and only relative to the resistance of the system in place to contain it... If the pressure does not exceed strength of the containment apparatus, all is well. The Freedom Arms .454 revolver has a built-in 100%+ safety factor - that is, it will contain pressures in excess of 100% overload. That said - DON'T try to find out how much or how high that is... We did succeed in breaking a .454 at F.A., but only after much tedious loading and firing of ammunition no one could conceivably load by accident or mistake. The gun never did "blow up," it just finally "broke..."
In my own .454 levergun tests, back in the late '80s, we did manage to ruin a few Winchester '94s, and one Marlin 336. The Marlin failed after the fewest rounds of factory-equivalent ammo, digesting only a handful of rounds (somewhere short of 20, if memory serves...) before the action would no longer lock up safely or securely.
Next to fall was a brand-new Winchester '94 Big-Bore AE, which stretched and flowed like taffy, as the bolt tried to climb up the locking lug and out of the top of the receiver, peening the lug recesses in the receiver terribly, and noticeably stretching the right side wall of the receiver. In their infinite wisdom, Winchester (USRAC) beefed up the receiver in the wrong place, while cutting ALL the strength out of the right receiver wall, to allow for their ill-conceived "angle ejection" modification. The '94 that performed best in my testing was a well-used carbine, made in the 1920s. It was still tight and crisp when we screwed the .454 barrel into it, but even it became dangerous and unserviceable in fewer than 50 rounds.
The whole point of the testing was to prove to various and sundry doubters that the 1894 Winchester was NOT a suitable platform for the powerful .454 Casull round - and WHY. The guns used (and used up...) in the tests were donated to the cause by those very Doubting Thomases...! It doesn't get much better than that.
BTW, the same Sharon barrel was used in all the tests, and it emerged unscathed. It was finally rethreaded and rechambered to .45 Colt and installed in a Browning '92, where it still resides -- a 24", octagon beauty.
The 1894 and 1895 Winchesters are NOT particularly strong actions, having llooooooonnnnngg receiver walls and angled, rear locking bolts. In short, physics and geometry are against them from the outset. As mentioned above, the '94 AE suffers the further indignity of having the only strengthening metal available to it REMOVED to make way for the abominable ejection system.
The '86/M-71 and '92 Winchesters are by far the strongest of the "traditional" lever actions, with the nod going to the '86/71, with its square-to-bore vertical lockup, which situates the lugs about 2/3 the distance back from the breech-face as compared to a '94 or '95. The '86's receiver walls are robust and not chopped up or hollowed out as are those on the '94, in particular.
The new Browning/Winchester 1886 and Model 71 are virtually identical offerings, made of good, through-hardened steel, and will serve as the basis for some VERY powerful loading.
Be careful, and don't try this at home...
Regards,
Buck
Edited by - Buck Elliott on 03/12/2004 03:40:44 AM
Thanks for a great site, Jim. It's about time we had a good forum for levergun cranks. I will see if I can find a copy of the .454 Rifle saga I started back so many moons ago. Confidentially, I was hoping you might still have it on file, but I'll start digging through my junk, too.
To answer Lozen's questions...
I think the jury is still out on the Puma .454. I know that it will kick you like a Missouri mule in its present configuration, especially with loads such as we had when the .454 cartridge first became a viable, commercial reality. 300-gr. bullets at an honest 2100 fps churn up a lot of back-thrust in a 6 - 6 1/2 lb. shoulder gun. Paco knows more about the new Puma than I do, and he will be the one to watch for data.
I am NOT fond of the Puma's answer to loading the little gun. That's what happens when you don't have quite enough gun for the cartridge.
We did consider the .454 for the Browning '92, but there is precious little room inside a '92 action for a round as long as a normally-loaded .454 Casull. The gun worked perfectly with hot-loaded .45 Colt stuff, though we did have to cut the cartridge stop on the lifter back a bit to allow it to handle the same 300 - 325 gr. cast bullets we used in the .45 (as well as in the Casull.) I haven't had opportunity to examine a .454 Puma up-close & personal to see exactly how they handled the problem. The .45 Colt Browning will throw those same bullets at a very respectable 1950 fps, which ain't exactly loafing...
The biggest problem presented by the basic '92 action is the angled locking geometry. The '86 locks up square (in the receiver) with the bolt and bore, and is better at preventing metal movement.
The Rifle I finally designed and built is really a shortened '86, made of 17-4 Ph stainless -- the same material used by Freedom Arms for their Casull revolvers.
BTW, my basic rifle can be easily adapted to the .475 & .500 Linebaugh cartridges; short AND long versions, and would be great in .500 S&W, if you wanted to settle for just a wee bit less...
Regards,
Buck
Enjoy! And now Buck Elliot's words:
Just remember that pressure is always and only relative to the resistance of the system in place to contain it... If the pressure does not exceed strength of the containment apparatus, all is well. The Freedom Arms .454 revolver has a built-in 100%+ safety factor - that is, it will contain pressures in excess of 100% overload. That said - DON'T try to find out how much or how high that is... We did succeed in breaking a .454 at F.A., but only after much tedious loading and firing of ammunition no one could conceivably load by accident or mistake. The gun never did "blow up," it just finally "broke..."
In my own .454 levergun tests, back in the late '80s, we did manage to ruin a few Winchester '94s, and one Marlin 336. The Marlin failed after the fewest rounds of factory-equivalent ammo, digesting only a handful of rounds (somewhere short of 20, if memory serves...) before the action would no longer lock up safely or securely.
Next to fall was a brand-new Winchester '94 Big-Bore AE, which stretched and flowed like taffy, as the bolt tried to climb up the locking lug and out of the top of the receiver, peening the lug recesses in the receiver terribly, and noticeably stretching the right side wall of the receiver. In their infinite wisdom, Winchester (USRAC) beefed up the receiver in the wrong place, while cutting ALL the strength out of the right receiver wall, to allow for their ill-conceived "angle ejection" modification. The '94 that performed best in my testing was a well-used carbine, made in the 1920s. It was still tight and crisp when we screwed the .454 barrel into it, but even it became dangerous and unserviceable in fewer than 50 rounds.
The whole point of the testing was to prove to various and sundry doubters that the 1894 Winchester was NOT a suitable platform for the powerful .454 Casull round - and WHY. The guns used (and used up...) in the tests were donated to the cause by those very Doubting Thomases...! It doesn't get much better than that.
BTW, the same Sharon barrel was used in all the tests, and it emerged unscathed. It was finally rethreaded and rechambered to .45 Colt and installed in a Browning '92, where it still resides -- a 24", octagon beauty.
The 1894 and 1895 Winchesters are NOT particularly strong actions, having llooooooonnnnngg receiver walls and angled, rear locking bolts. In short, physics and geometry are against them from the outset. As mentioned above, the '94 AE suffers the further indignity of having the only strengthening metal available to it REMOVED to make way for the abominable ejection system.
The '86/M-71 and '92 Winchesters are by far the strongest of the "traditional" lever actions, with the nod going to the '86/71, with its square-to-bore vertical lockup, which situates the lugs about 2/3 the distance back from the breech-face as compared to a '94 or '95. The '86's receiver walls are robust and not chopped up or hollowed out as are those on the '94, in particular.
The new Browning/Winchester 1886 and Model 71 are virtually identical offerings, made of good, through-hardened steel, and will serve as the basis for some VERY powerful loading.
Be careful, and don't try this at home...
Regards,
Buck
Edited by - Buck Elliott on 03/12/2004 03:40:44 AM
Thanks for a great site, Jim. It's about time we had a good forum for levergun cranks. I will see if I can find a copy of the .454 Rifle saga I started back so many moons ago. Confidentially, I was hoping you might still have it on file, but I'll start digging through my junk, too.
To answer Lozen's questions...
I think the jury is still out on the Puma .454. I know that it will kick you like a Missouri mule in its present configuration, especially with loads such as we had when the .454 cartridge first became a viable, commercial reality. 300-gr. bullets at an honest 2100 fps churn up a lot of back-thrust in a 6 - 6 1/2 lb. shoulder gun. Paco knows more about the new Puma than I do, and he will be the one to watch for data.
I am NOT fond of the Puma's answer to loading the little gun. That's what happens when you don't have quite enough gun for the cartridge.
We did consider the .454 for the Browning '92, but there is precious little room inside a '92 action for a round as long as a normally-loaded .454 Casull. The gun worked perfectly with hot-loaded .45 Colt stuff, though we did have to cut the cartridge stop on the lifter back a bit to allow it to handle the same 300 - 325 gr. cast bullets we used in the .45 (as well as in the Casull.) I haven't had opportunity to examine a .454 Puma up-close & personal to see exactly how they handled the problem. The .45 Colt Browning will throw those same bullets at a very respectable 1950 fps, which ain't exactly loafing...
The biggest problem presented by the basic '92 action is the angled locking geometry. The '86 locks up square (in the receiver) with the bolt and bore, and is better at preventing metal movement.
The Rifle I finally designed and built is really a shortened '86, made of 17-4 Ph stainless -- the same material used by Freedom Arms for their Casull revolvers.
BTW, my basic rifle can be easily adapted to the .475 & .500 Linebaugh cartridges; short AND long versions, and would be great in .500 S&W, if you wanted to settle for just a wee bit less...
Regards,
Buck