Skeeter Skelton American Handgunner

[JudgeBAC]

I just recently returned to the wonderful world of casting. I started casting as a teenager then as I aged other interests (college, law school, marriage, children) interupted. I still shot frequently but could not find the time to cast. During my teenage years I cut my teeth on casting by reading many articles including those written by Skeeter Sketon. Many new shooters and casters are not familiar with Mr. Sketon. He had wonderful writing skills and an expansive knowledge and experience with casting and shooting. He was born in Texas in 1928. He served in the Marines and then started a long law enforcement carreer. In 1966 he began writing for Shooting Times. He authored more than 400 articles , was handgun editor for 21 years, and also wrote two books: Skeeter Skeltons Handgun Tales and Skeeter Skelton on handguns. He was the sixth recipient of the Outstanding American Hanguner Award. Two of Skeeters favorites were the .38 special and .357 magnum. His favorite bullet was Lymans 358156 a gas checked .358 bullet in both solid form and HP. In .38 special cases he seated the bullet out to the lower crimp groove in front of 13.5 gr of 2400 at 1150 fps. According to him, this load should only be shot in .357 mag revolvers or from .38 specials built on the .45 or large frame like the S&W .38-44 outdoorsman. In .357 cases he loaded this same bullet in front of 15 gr. of 2400. I have recently acquired this mold in both solid and HP form and look forward to developing loads in my Ruger Security Six. Skeeter was certainly talented with the revolver and the typewriter and I highly recommend reading his works. Please note that some of the above noted information was obtained from the website DarkCanyon.net which has some excellent articles of Skeeters reprinted along with other information. The author of that site has done an excellent job of accumulating reloading, casting, and other information of interest. Also, check out the articles of Glen E. Fryxell at lasc.net

Warning: All technical data mentioned, especially handloading and bullet casting, reflect the limited experience of individuals using specific tools, products, equipment and components under specific conditions and circumstances not necessarily reported in the article or on this web site and over which The Author of this thread or this web site has no control. The above has no control over the condition of your firearms / equipment or your methods, components, tools, techniques or circumstances and disclaims all and any responsibility for any person using any data mentioned.
Always consult recognized reloading manuals prior to using any reloading information obtained through the internet.

Good shooting.

[Bucks Owin]

At the risk of getting lynched, I have to say I thought ol' Skeeter was THE man when it came to talking sixguns and not Elmer Keith who IMHO was more of a blowhard and "legend in his own mind" than a good gun scribe. Skeeter had that ability to inform with humor as did few others mainly Jack O'Connor. They both had a great wit and I always eagerly awaited Outdoor Life and Shooting Times so I could read their columns first. Neither one was afraid to "miss with a typewriter" and seemed like one of us regular guys instead of an egomaniac like a lot of the later crop of "writers".....(Although I think Jim Carmichel did an admirable job of filling Jack's boots...)

Anyway, I hope the two of them are sitting around the fire together somewhere enjoying an evening libation of good whiskey and icy creek water regaling each other of their glory days. They are sorely missed and will never be forgotten by this powder burner who learned and enjoyed so much from them both....

Good huntin' Jack and Skeeter, :drinks:

Dennis

[Char-Gar]

I started to read "Skeeter" when he wrote under the name of "Charles". He was an English major at Texas Tech in Lubbock and was one of the best gun writers around. He really didn't do much technical writting. Most of his loads and gun notions he lifted from Keith and others.

What made him so attractive as a writer, is he did not write so much about guns, but what he and others did with guns.

Our paths crossed several times and I visited him in the Hospital in El Paso shortly before his death. I lived in Deming New Mexico for a time and met his Widow Sally and she is one fine lady.

I still keep his books which are a compilation of his writing beside my easy chair and read a few pages every day. I t takes me back to other times here in the great Southwest. Days when I could jump a four stand fence and hit a knat in the eye with a 45 at over 75 yards.

Skeeter was as real and down to earth as a person can be and his writing reflect who and what he was. May his tribe increase.

[August]

Get a rope~!

[nighthunter]

I happily admit to haveing have waited for each issue that Skeeter and Elmer had articles in. It was a good time to grow up and be bitten by the shooting bug. Didn't Skeeter write about him and a friend called Jughead or something similar?
Another good writer of the time was Bob Milek. I think the three of them had all the bases covered.
Nighthunter

[BeeMan]

No rope here. Skeeter Skelton and Bob Milek were the writers I followed early on. I read O'Connor a good bit too. Now, this site is where I find the best insight and a fair bit of entertainment.

BeeMan, who likes the 358156

[Bucks Owin]

Get a rope~!

Okay, okay....he designed some great boolits! [smilie=1:

Dennis

[Bent Ramrod]

Skeeter didn't push any particular technological frontiers in gunnery through his writing, but the experiences he recorded were well written and interesting. Also, he liked the kind of stuff I like, i.e., antiquated calibers like the .32-20 (and back then, such calibers as .32-20, .44 Special and .45 Colt had few advocates).

But I think where he was really world-class as a writer was his memoirs of his youthful shooting adventures with his friend Joe, his characterizations of the backwoods gun enthusiast Jug Johnson, the hard-boiled rancher Dobe Grant, and his humorous exchanges of embarrassing personal revelations with his fellow lawman Bill Jordan.

[S.R.Custom]

...Elmer Keith who IMHO was more of a blowhard and "legend in his own mind" than a good gun scribe.

That's pretty much the consensus of those here in Salmon who knew him...

There are the obligatory ribald tales of shooting 'possoms with a 30-06 in his front yard here in town (Elmer lived a block down from the courthouse), but the one I find the most telling is this...

Elmer was cheap. He smoked cheap cigars and drank cheap whiskey so he could save money for some new firearm purchase or a trip to Africa. Which is kinda funny to think about, but this is the best part-- he was so cheap, he used to try to trade autographed issues of the latest gun rag to run an article by him to the barber in exchange for his hair cuts. "Elmer, I told you last time; I don't want no damned magazines. Magazines with your chicken scratchin's in 'em don't go very far in putting gas in my truck!"

Hell, while I'm at it, here's the straight dope on that mythical 600 yard shot: If you recall, Elmer made that shot cross-canyon. And Elmer was of the mind that if he had to climb down 300 yards to the bottom of the canyon, and 300 yards up the other side to retrieve the animal, by God it was a 600 yard shot...

[buck1]

Skeeter Skelton, Elmer Keith, Jack O'Connor! Theres 3 ACES FOR SURE!! If I may .... I think John Taffin would fit right in with that group.
JOYFULL READING!!!!!!!!.....Buck

[sixgunner452]

I too am a long time Skeeter Skelton fan. I have 2 of his books "Hoglegs, Hipshots, and Jalapeno's'' and "Good friends, good guns, and good Whiskey''. I have never read the two books you refer too. I have always listened to anything said by Elmer Keith, but Skeeter is easier reading. Viva La Skeeter.

[Junior1942]

The new Hodgdon loading manual contains a Skeeter Skelton tale, a very good tale by the way.

I'm also a long time Skeeter Skelton fan. There's always been lots of writers, but there's never been many storytellers. Skeeter could spin a yarn. I wish I could have spent a few nights around a campfire with him and some big jugs of whiskey.

[Bret4207]

Skeeter, Elmer, Bill, Bob Milek, Bob Hagel, O'Connor, Page, Trueblood, Brown Jobson, Kohler, Decker, Nonte, Whelen..... the list goes on. All were good to great writers. And, all we just men who had their faults be it ego, alcholoism, tempers, or being plain miserable. I'll try to remember the good parts and enjoy what I learned from them all.

[Bucks Owin]

That's pretty much the consensus of those here in Salmon who knew him...

There are the obligatory ribald tales of shooting 'possoms with a 30-06 in his front yard here in town (Elmer lived a block down from the courthouse), but the one I find the most telling is this...

Elmer was cheap. He smoked cheap cigars and drank cheap whiskey so he could save money for some new firearm purchase or a trip to Africa. Which is kinda funny to think about, but this is the best part-- he was so cheap, he used to try to trade autographed issues of the latest gun rag to run an article by him to the barber in exchange for his hair cuts. "Elmer, I told you last time; I don't want no damned magazines. Magazines with your chicken scratchin's in 'em don't go very far in putting gas in my truck!"

Hell, while I'm at it, here's the straight dope on that mythical 600 yard shot: If you recall, Elmer made that shot cross-canyon. And Elmer was of the mind that if he had to climb down 300 yards to the bottom of the canyon, and 300 yards up the other side to retrieve the animal, by God it was a 600 yard shot...

Thanks for the interesting post. I feel a little less like "The Lone Stranger" now!

Some of Keith's recommendations for rifle calibers for game the size of (armor plated?) mule deer and up were pretty "off the wall" too. I'm sure he and O'Connor didn't see eye to eye in that regard! I've read of the two of them yelling at each other* after a few "sundowners"......:-D

But I miss 'em all,

Dennis

* Of course they were both half deaf from muzzle blast like a lot of us are, but apparently they weren't the "best of friends" either....

[Catshooter]

Not many writers can say they sold 100% of what he wrote, but Skeeter did.

I really enjoyed his writtings and wish that he had lived out a full life instead of dieing so early.

[Willbird]

Well Elmer had his detractors, the ones after his death don't count in my opinion. Elmer would shoot a mulie with a 400 whelen and it killed the deer, whereas if Jack O'conner shot an Alaskan Brown bear with his beloved 270 I'd rather not be thete to watch :-)........Elmer did guide some hunters, and bullets werent so good back then, so I'm sure he saw some stuff not work.

As to Skeeter, I dearly loved his writing, esp. "Me and Joe".

If you want the real dope on his life start digging.......all I will say......is the same kind of people who will run down Elmer got some dope on Skeeter too so the two must have been pretty even. They get in some licks on Bill Jordan too.

I bet not a one of them had much to say to Bill, Skeeter, or Elmers face tho :-)............and them 3 guys could set around a campfire and share some sour mash and git along fine I bet, while Jack O'conner did their laundry :-)

Bill

[Dale53]

Bill;
I am totally in agreement with you. I have a friend who was a SEAL. He has a saying, "If you can do it, it is NOT bragging!" Elmer did everything that he stated he did. Too many people have witnessed his incredible long range prowess to deny it.

He was the inspiration for several generations of hand gunners and literally paved the way for us. He and Ed McGivern set standards of skill that allowed some of us lesser mortals to try, and sometimes, succeed in extending our own skills.

As far as large rifle calibers are concerned, remember that Elmer started with a Sharps (BIG bullet) and learned first hand what worked and what did not. He was not a dilettante but a subsistence hunter. When you and I hunt, if we are unsuccessful, we just go to the supermarket. Elmer and his neighbors often did not have that option. If they failed on a hunt they might not eat. Elmer learned early, that big bullets DO have an edge. That is where he was coming from. Bullet design was seriously lacking and there are many recorded failures of the 30'06 failing because of inferior bullets. Now, the present day 30'06 is a "horse of a different color".

It is real easy to criticize someone, it takes no skill whatsoever. I respect the likes of Elmer, Sleeter, Ed McGivern, Townsend Whelen, and most of the others because they made me think and their writings encouraged me to advance my shooting ability. I have been reading their work for most of my life and I STILL enjoy them.

Here's a cold one for them one and all!!

Dale53

[223tenx]

They had to be characters to exist and flourish in their time. I would like to read of their exploits that couldn't be printed. I'll wager there were some pretty wild times.

[johniv]

At the risk of getting lynched, I have to say I thought ol' Skeeter was THE man when it came to talking sixguns and not Elmer Keith who IMHO was more of a blowhard and "legend in his own mind" than a good gun scribe. Skeeter had that ability to inform with humor as did few others mainly Jack O'Connor. They both had a great wit and I always eagerly awaited Outdoor Life and Shooting Times so I could read their columns first. Neither one was afraid to "miss with a typewriter" and seemed like one of us regular guys instead of an egomaniac like a lot of the later crop of "writers".....(Although I think Jim Carmichel did an admirable job of filling Jack's boots...)

Anyway, I hope the two of them are sitting around the fire together somewhere enjoying an evening libation of good whiskey and icy creek water regaling each other of their glory days. They are sorely missed and will never be forgotten by this powder burner who learned and enjoyed so much from them both....

Good huntin' Jack and Skeeter, :drinks:

Dennis
Whiskey AND Water?!?"! Get a rope!

[looseprojectile]

and me never met. They were gone before I was born.

I more or less learned how to grandfather from Robert Ruark, "the Old man and the boy" and "Use enough gun". I have a copy of "Use enough gun" and he walked the walk and talked the talk. I still need to find reprints of all his Old man and the boy stories.
I'll drink a few to him.
Happy shooting :drinks:

[Paul B]

I'll only address Skeeter, Jack and Elmer here. Skeeter could tell a good tale that was not only informative, but good reading as well. My favorite load for the .44 Spl. is Lyman's #429241 over 7.5 gr. of Unique, which was Skeeter's pet load as well. I got it from reading his stuff. I liked the me and Joe series and the Dobie Grant stuff, but Jug Johnson didn't float my boat. maybe he reminded me too much of me? Quien sabe?
The difference between Jack and Elmer is like comparing apples and oranges. Discounting Jack's early hunting before he became a gun writer, most of Jack's later hunts were guided affairs paid for by Outdoor Life. Jack was a good shot from what I understand, but he also didn't care much for the harder kicking rifles. he'd use one if the situation warrented, but he didn't necessarily like it.
Elmer on the other hand grew up under much harder circumstances. badly burned in an arson related hotel fire, he barely survived. Reading about how he got his left hand back to where it was usable is some of the hardest reading I've ever done. I wonder just how many of his detractors today, or even back then would have had the guts to do what was needed to be done. I'm not sure I could've.
Most of jack's hunts were in fairly open to open country, where Elmer hunted the balck timber of Oregon, Idaho and Montata and the Alaskan and Canadian wilderness. I cannot fault his choice of the larger calibers under those circumstances. I also doubt any one of us would call him a blowhard to his face, were he still among us.
There are damn few of us who will ever garner the experience of those gentlemen. Those opportunities are long gone.
I don't agree with everything Jack, Elmer, Skeeter or any other gun writer, dead or alive, had to say. I'll read their stuff and separate the wheat from the chaff as I see it based on my limited experience.
I'm not dissing the other writers mentioned above by any means. I too have my favorites among them.
Paul B.

[Blackwater]

Personally, I liked them all, not withstanding what foibles any of them had or didn't have. Every one of them made me a better shooter, reloader and hunter by teaching me something that I didn't know, making me realize the qualitative differences between this and that, and by teaching intuitively the ethics that come with our pursuits, both technical and afield.

One other old timer I really like is Harvey Donaldson. He's not as folksy as many of those mentioned, but his experience spanned the black and smokeless eras, and his penchant for experimenting taught me how to keep myself out of trouble when I pursued my own inquisitiveness .... most of the time, anyway.

I miss them all. It was a whole 'nother world back then. I wonder if any of them could be published without heavy editing, if at all, nowadays? One thing I really miss is how they'd all pan things they honestly didn't like. I haven't seen much of that these last number of years in the glossy magazines, and I think it served a real purpose. Any pans nowadays are pretty well softened by the editors, I think, lest the advertisers become displeased.

Funny, isn't it, how we're living in the REAL "Golden Age of Shoting and Reloading," and at least SOME of the panning I'd expect to see just doesn't make it to print usually. Things ARE much better nowadays, what with the best barrels and measuring techniques and tooling, but .... I still miss an occasional dissention from the madding crowd, like we used to see more often from those Golden Oldies of days gone by. Political correctness has expanded into areas where it's a disservive to us, IMO.

And whoever it was who commented on the "tale spinners" sure had a good point, too. Most writing now is a LOT more "technical" in orientation. I understand Elmer's articles had to be heavily corrected as to grammar and punctuation, and occasionally as to content in order to make his meaning clear. Still, I'd not trade an Elmer for three of today's gurus. O'Conner could be a prima donna, and may not have held his liquor well, but he wrote beautifully and poignantly, and he taught me a LOT. For that I'll always be thankful. Page was more matter of fact in his presentation, comparatively, but wrote very well indeed, and of subjects more technical and for that edification I'll always be appreciative.

One and all, they contributed heavily, if not perfectly. I miss 'em.

[looseprojectile]

came along after I had already learned how to keep my Ruger .357 from leading.
Factory loads in the fiftys were horrible for leading the bores. I bought my first boolit mold at the Hensley & Gibbs factory in San Diego, [a woodshed in the back yard.] It is a .357 K T SWC GC 150 gr. four cavity with handles. I paid 18 1956 US dollars. It was a little later that I bought the Ruger.
A friend, also named Skeeter, and me made our own lube, and cast boolits from anything we could melt and pour, looking for hardness and little to no leading. Pink high speed babbit worked very well, linotype was good also.
At that time we read the many gun magazine articles of Keith, Grinnell, Harvey.[Kay Chuck, pro tex bore] and all the others previously mentioned. I also remember a little kid named Thell Reid jr. who could shoot and reload a single action .45 faster than I could just shoot six times. Seems he must have been about six or seven, late fifties? Heard he became a US Marine.
I really did enjoy Skeeter Skelton's stories, though I think most of his knowlege was gained the same way I got mine.
Makers Mark:drinks:

[454PB]

I read them all, but Keith was my favorite. I think I own every book he wrote on rifles and handguns. Since he spent his younger years growing up and honing his shooting skills about 15 miles from my house, a lot of this writting was easy to relate to. When his last book "Hell I Was There" came out, my wife bought me a copy. I removed the cover and sent it to Elmer, along with a S.A.S.E. and asked him to autograph it for me. I had it back in less than a week with a very nice personal note. I treasure it to this day and felt lucky that I had it, since he suffered a severe stroke shortly afterwards.

[looseprojectile]

Skeeter and I,[not Skelton] visited Elmer Keith in Salmon in the late seventies.
At least one time he didn't drink cheap whiskey. We shared a fifth of Glenlivit scotch which Skeeter and I provided. We were entertained by him and his very gracious wife who provided a sample of her very excellent antelope mincemeat.
At that time I had just bought a Browning 92 .44 magnum carbine and as he looked at it he said that Browning had not offered to send him one to evaluate.
I think I detected a slight tear.
While Skeeter and I were in Salmon visiting Skeeters Mother in law we were asked to do a little rockchuck ccontroll. She called all her neighbors and warned them that we would be shooting. I think I got six. Yes this was inside the city limits with the .44 mag carbine.
Happy shooting

[Char-Gar]

Elmer Keith was the real deal and I have no doubt he did everything he said he did. He was aware of his position in the world of shooting and shooters.

I meet Elmer at a NRA convention a number of years ago. I was with Bill Jordon and we spent an hour or two in the hotel bar with Elmer doing what folks in hotel bars do.

I was far to young to fully understand and appreciat the event as I should have. I was also in the company of my seniors and my betters and tried to keep my mouth shut and ears open.

Elmer Keith was fully human being, and he did play a seminal role in development of rifle and sixgun shooting in the 20th. century. He has become an object of adoraton after his death. He would find that amusing but I doubt it he would disapprove.

[wills]

came along after I had already learned how to keep my Ruger .357 from leading.
.... I also remember a little kid named Thell Reid jr. who could shoot and reload a single action .45 faster than I could just shoot six times. Seems he must have been about six or seven, late fifties? Heard he became a US Marine.
I really did enjoy Skeeter Skelton's stories, though I think most of his knowlege was gained the same way I got mine.
Makers Mark:drinks:


Guns and Ammo published an article on Thell Reid back in the 60’s, when he was 21. There were prints from movies they made of him at something like 100 frames per second, showing him drawing and firing an SAA in .06 second, and keeping all seven empties in the air from a 1911. I think I remember seeing Reid on the Ed Sullivan show once and a few years ago his picture was in a gun rag. Anyone know what became of him? He must be an old coot by now.

[StarMetal]

One of those articles said that he could have six rounds in a 45LC Colt SAA shoot the six shots at a playing card so many feet way, then reload and shoot again...all in 12 seconds...plus keep the shots in the card. Hell, I'd love to just see someone that could unload and load six again in 12 seconds. I believe I saw him on the History Channel when they did some of the Old West High Tech series. Yeah he's old, but he's still a pretty decent performer.

Joe

[robertbank]

"Skeeter, Elmer, Bill, Bob Milek, Bob Hagel, O'Connor, Page, Trueblood, Brown Jobson, Kohler, Decker, Nonte, Whelen..... the list goes on. All were good to great writers. And, all we just men who had their faults be it ego, alcholoism, tempers, or being plain miserable. I'll try to remember the good parts and enjoy what I learned from them all."


Grew up with all three for which I am eternally greatful given I doubt I would have got into shooting as I have without their unknown encouragement.

What is that Shakespear said, " The evil that men do lives after them but the good is oft interned with their bones" with apologies to Mark Anthony.

Take Care

[Bucks Owin]

I'll only address Skeeter, Jack and Elmer here. Skeeter could tell a good tale that was not only informative, but good reading as well. My favorite load for the .44 Spl. is Lyman's #429241 over 7.5 gr. of Unique, which was Skeeter's pet load as well. I got it from reading his stuff. I liked the me and Joe series and the Dobie Grant stuff, but Jug Johnson didn't float my boat. maybe he reminded me too much of me? Quien sabe?
The difference between Jack and Elmer is like comparing apples and oranges. Discounting Jack's early hunting before he became a gun writer, most of Jack's later hunts were guided affairs paid for by Outdoor Life. Jack was a good shot from what I understand, but he also didn't care much for the harder kicking rifles. he'd use one if the situation warrented, but he didn't necessarily like it.
Elmer on the other hand grew up under much harder circumstances. badly burned in an arson related hotel fire, he barely survived. Reading about how he got his left hand back to where it was usable is some of the hardest reading I've ever done. I wonder just how many of his detractors today, or even back then would have had the guts to do what was needed to be done. I'm not sure I could've.
Most of jack's hunts were in fairly open to open country, where Elmer hunted the balck timber of Oregon, Idaho and Montata and the Alaskan and Canadian wilderness. I cannot fault his choice of the larger calibers under those circumstances. I also doubt any one of us would call him a blowhard to his face, were he still among us.
There are damn few of us who will ever garner the experience of those gentlemen. Those opportunities are long gone.
I don't agree with everything Jack, Elmer, Skeeter or any other gun writer, dead or alive, had to say. I'll read their stuff and separate the wheat from the chaff as I see it based on my limited experience.
I'm not dissing the other writers mentioned above by any means. I too have my favorites among them.
Paul B.

I don't think that Jack was especially "recoil challenged", but he did advise folks who used the "super magnum hell blasters" (his words) to practice with them and get used to them. He thought, as do I, that the average once a year shooter would be more accurate with a rifle they weren't afraid to shoot and were likely to flinch with. He used "Old Betsy" his cherished .375 H&H fairly extensively both in Africa and Alaska as well as his pet .416 Rigby. He simply doted on the great .270 and found it pretty deadly at anything he used it on. (He was definately the .270's "adopted father" and biggest booster!)
He (and my Dad) were among the first to do side by side comparisons of the .270 and 7mm Rem Mag and both found that as a "practical matter" they were about equal except the 7mm kicked more and needed a longer barrel than the .270 to maintain velocity. I think Jack was among the first to actually do much hunting with the 7mm Rem to give it a fair trial and pronounced it quite deadly. He DID detest heavy rifles as he did a lot of scrambling around in the mountains after sheep. Big bore rifles are HEAVY rifles normally and I think he didn't like to carry them around on foot. He probably "preferred" open country hunting (as do most of us I think) but he didn't find his favorite quarry, Dall sheep, out on the plains! I would doubt that Elmer did as much scrambling around in the wilds of BC* as Jack did, and O'Connor made quite a few month long pack trips there....

Just my opinion but I would bet the farm that Jack did more hunting in rough country that Elmer ever did and that in a "O'Connor vs Keith .375 H&H shootoff", Jack would also win the marbles! He WAS an excellent rifle (and shotgun) shot....

But I agree with you that the two legends were "apples and oranges". Jack was a rifleman, never cared much for handguns. Elmer's forte was the sixgun and his knowledge of rifles didn't equal Jack's IMO, but who cares....Being a master of sixgun shooting was enough!

FWIW,

Dennis

* And the mountains of BC are about as rough going as you'll find. I know, I've lived there...)

[Bucks Owin]

Hell, I'd love to just see someone that could unload and load six again in 12 seconds.

Joe

Hell, that's not especially hard to do, even I can do that....

(and without a S/A "speedloader", a simple tube with 6 rds in it...)

Dennis

[Dale53]

While we are on this subject and Elmer's proficiency with a rifle...

Elmer was the Idaho big bore champion at 1000 yards. He also competed well at Camp Perry long range. He was skilled with BOTH the rifle and handgun. I'm not much into comparisons between people. All of the people we are discussing provided anyone with the ability to read, hours and hours of enjoyment. I miss each and every one of them.

Long live books and may the writers live forever!

Dale53

[Bucks Owin]

While we are on this subject and Elmer's proficiency with a rifle...

Elmer was the Idaho big bore champion at 1000 yards. He also competed well at Camp Perry long range. He was skilled with BOTH the rifle and handgun. I'm not much into comparisons between people. All of the people we are discussing provided anyone with the ability to read, hours and hours of enjoyment. I miss each and every one of them.

Long live books and may the writers live forever!

Dale53


Amen! I agree 100% with that notion, I love to read about my favorite things....

Dennis

[Bret4207]

I thought I had added this before, must be CRS disease. All you guys who think Ol' Uncle Elmer just toyed with revolters and shot for fun NEED to read his books. Yeah you can skip "Shotguns" but read his other ones. "Big Game Rifles and Cartridges" alone should make you realize he was a meat hunter and long time guide, and he took some trophies too. The guy lived and breathed guns- handguns, rifles and shotguns alike. There's far too many of us today that read a blurb on the 'net or in a magazine and assume it's fact. I never had the pleasure of meeting Elmer, Jack, Warren Page, Harvey Donaldson, Ned Roberts, Harry Pope, Bob Hagel, Pete Brown, Ted Trueblood, Layne Simpson, Phil Sharpe, Bob McFarland, Parker Ackley, Skeeter, Bill Jordan, Harlan Carter, Carbine Williams or Finn Aggard. But I've met guys who have over the years. Most tell tales of a guy who was pretty ordinary, though some were rather ... boorish I guess might be a good description. Maybe full of themselves is better. But with only one or two exceptions they tell of a man who would give advice that turned out to be good and sound. Some tell tales of working with guys like Sharpe during WW2 and that his knowledge was just astounding. Another told of growing up with Ackley and meeting him later after the war out west where they did their best to destroy a bunch of guns.

It's all anecdotal evidence and now it's 3rd ( or is it 4th) hand for whoever reads this. My point is whether you were a Roy Weatherby fan or an Elmer Keith fan you have to do the research before you say such and such never could have happened. Arisakas were considered junk till Ackley proved most models were far stronger than our beloved '03. Whether you believe Elmer designed the first 357 mag boolit or Phil Sharpe did it, you can't say for sure until do the research.

I guess I'm getting old and crotchety and my desire for our younger gunners to learn who paved the way for them has surfaced again. The info is out there guys. Seek and ye shall find.

[waksupi]

Brett, I agree with your post. I know quite a few old real honest-to-gawd mountain men up in this country, and some would lump me in with them. Most have more than a little Elmer in them. Not necessarily magnum fans, but they know what works on big game. There are riflemen in the mountains that you will never hear of, that have done the intense type experimentation that Elmer did. They have just never gone to the trouble to try and get published. That isn't thier endgame. It would be great, if all of the info could be gathered, but we all know, it ain't gonna happen. I know one guy who has worked with the 6.5 Swede, and the 6.5X06 enough, to write a very interesting text book on the two chambereings.
There are no Foxfire researchers for shooters. Of which, maybe, we should be thankful, as a lot of mis-information was passed along by Foxfire!

[Bret4207]

Waksupi- Thanks, now I gotta go dig out my "Foxfire" collection because you got me thinking about the stories about the water wheel builder. Great idea despite any errors. There's too much lost everyday as the old timers pass. Even if it is recorded it does no good if no one reads it.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Jack O'connor a "prima donna?" Maybe, but he treated me very kindly on the one occasion that I wrote to him. When Jack retired from Outdoor life I wrote him best wishes and thanked him for his honesty and excelllent writing. I teased him about turning a kid who wanted to hunt into a far-gone gun nut. His reply was very kind, and even humble. I have lost the reply, but I still remember most of it.

[Bucks Owin]

Was perusing some old issues of AR in the "reading room" this morning and ran across this readers question answered by Elmer Keith. I think it is a representative example of why Jack and Elmer didn't see eye to eye a lot of the time....

The photo is kinda out of focus so I'll quote from the Jan 1956 issue:

Question:

"I have been using a 30-06 Enfield sporter but have found it too slow on snap shots at deer and too heavy to carry all day. I have been considering a .348 Winchester Model 71 since loads are available with 150, 200 and 250 gr bullets. After reading about the new Model 88, I have developed some doubts regarding the strength of the Model 71 action when used with heavy loads. If I purchase a Model 71, can I use handloads developing somewhat better ballistics than factory offerings? If so, will the action stand up without springing or stretching? I am particularly interested in hunting elk.......A.T.A."

Elmer's answer:

"The Model 71 in .348 caliber is an excellent timber rifle and a better killer with 250 gr bullets than even the 220 gr .30/06. The action is amply strong for factory loads or equivalent handloads. Factory pressures should not be exceeded, however, or the rifle in time will develop excessive headspace. A desireable feature of the Model 71 rifle is it's tubular magazine which I consider preferable to the seperate loading clip......E.K."

My "guesstimation" of a probable Jack O'Connor reply:

The .348 Winchester was (and still is) a good brush rifle with adequate ballistics for moderate range elk hunting and the Model 71 was/is a well made rifle. However the .348 cartridge is somewhat of an oddball and fast becoming obsolete in my opinion...

The Model 88 Winchester is definately a much stronger action, being basically a "lever operated" bolt rifle. It is more accurate, it's integral trigger/lever is slightly "faster" to operate than the M-71's, it's easier to mount a scope on and the .358 Win cartridge has better trajectory and greater energy than the .348 Win. In addition, the M-88 can be handloaded to factory .358 levels or better and it has an added advantage of being able to use a spitzer bullet for greater downrange ballistics where of course, the .348 is limited to flat point bullets. There is a much broader choice of projectiles in .35 cal than in the odd .348" diameter. The detachable magazine (clip) makes the rifle faster to load and reload than the M-71's tubular design. In fact, with a loaded magazine in my pocket I believe I could empty the M-88 in the same amount of time it would take to fully load the M-71! The M-88 is also available in the excellent new .284 Win caliber if one wants to practically duplicate factory .270 WCF ballistics, and in .243 Win as a varmint/light game chambering. If it were me, I'd go with the M-88 in .358 Win for timber shooting of elk or .284 as an all around fine, flat shooting caliber for North American hunting. I have read that bullets under .33 caliber are likely to bounce off elk, or at least disintegrate into roman candles when they encounter elk hair, but I have killed numerous elk very dead with one shot using the .270 Win and see no reason why the .284 wouldn't perform in a like manner!.....J. O'C.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/Keith003.jpg

[StarMetal]

If those were both their answers I think they both were good. Both rifles and calibers are excellent. The only criticism I can think of is 348 becoming obsolete. If you reload and have alot of brass put up, that statement is mute. If you don't reload, that it's very true. The 88 was calibered in cartridges that are still very avialiable today. I have a model 100 in 243 and am very amazed at how accurate it is.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

If those were both their answers I think they both were good. Both rifles and calibers are excellent. The only criticism I can think of is 348 becoming obsolete. If you reload and have alot of brass put up, that statement is mute. If you don't reload, that it's very true. The 88 was calibered in cartridges that are still very avialiable today. I have a model 100 in 243 and am very amazed at how accurate it is.

Joe

I had a M-100 too, in .284 and it also shot VERY well.... :drinks:

FWIW,

Dennis

BTW, I wrote the O'Connor answer....:-D I think that by '56 the .348 was fading away somewhat in response to more "modern" big bores. That year saw the introduction of the great .458 Win and a furious round of wildcatting by shooters and manufacturers alike....
I also think that then and now there is a broader range of .358" diameter boolits available than .348"....