Blackhorn 209 and saboted bullet test results

[Willbird]

OK as I said on another thread I got ahold of some Blackhorn 209 powder to try in my TC Omeag rifle.

The TC Omega has a 28" long barrel, with a 1/28 twist.

I set up my crono with the start screen 20 feet from the muzzle, then used an online ballistics program to correct the measured velocity back to actual muzzle velocity. There is a link below to that program...

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.0.cgi

Barnes Spitfire TMZ 250 grain (.221 BC)

70 grains of BH-209 equal to 100 grains volume measure
1851 fps muzzle velocity

77 grains equal to 110 grains volume measure
1985 fps muzzle velocity

84 grains equal to 120 grains volume measure
2053 fps muzzle velocity

Barnes Spitfire TMZ 290 grain (.241 BC)

70 grains of BH-209 equal to 100 grains volume measure
1802 fps muzzle velocity

77 grains equal to 110 grains volume measure
1924 fps muzzle velocity

84 grains equal to 120 grains volume measure
2011 fps muzzle velocity

I had not tested the 290 grain bullets before, reading on the internet told me they are really best suited to 1/24 twist barrels, but some 1/28 barrels will work with them, and apparently mine is one of them because they shoot just as good as the 250's.



I also fired one round with a hornady 180 grain bullet/sabot....I had bought those with the idea of using the Omega to pop a woodchucl or two for some off season practice, and it did not seem that I needed 250 to 300 grain bullets for woodchucks. They were the lightest bullet/sabot I could find for a 50 caliber mz....never got around to doing anything with them yet...

Hornady 180 grain 44 caliber XTP (.138 BC)

84 grains of BH209 equal to 120 grains by volume
2166 fps


Overall I am quite pleased with the BH209 powder.....I did not get any "magic" 3/4" groups as some have reported.....BUT I was able to get roughly the same groups with 120 grains equiv as with 100 grains equiv.......which is better than what I have seen with 777 powder....accuracy goes to hell with 777 in my gun past 100 grains of powder.

3 and 5 shot groups were running 1.5" or so at 75 yards, that is using a 3x9 Nikon Omega scope set on 9x.

Personally I think some of the accuracy results may not be nearly as good as the gun will actually shoot......it probably takes a better man than I at the bench to wring tiny groups out of a 7lb rifle that is generating 2600 ft lbs of energy :-).

I fired a total of 30 shots with no cleaning at all, every bullet/sabot seated about like the first and second one did. The breech plug was about as easy to remove as after 1-2 shots of 777 powder....there was a small amount of residue built up in the powder chamber of the breech plug, easily removed with shooters choice.

The bore cleaned up with 4-5 wet patches with shooters choice, followed by a couple dry patches.



I did notice one thing worthy of mention......the FIRST shot I fired from a clean bore with 100 grains by volume BH209 behind a 250 grain bullet/sabot cronoed 75 fps faster than the next three shots...all shots measured at 20 feet uncorrected......
1905
1829
1827
1826

Also after cleaning, and reloading with the 120 grains by volume charge with the 290 grain bullet the first shot the gun shot about 2" high at 75 yards............so it looks like a fouling shot will be needed after cleaning the gun..................not unusual at all....just different than 777 which seems to drop the first shot from a clean bore into the group.

I'm going to do some work next week with the fouled gun....shooting one shot per day at the same target.....that is closer to actual deer hunting than 1 shot every 3-5 minutes testing loads and bullets.

I tried my Lyman 55 measure first with the BH209, and I set the big slide on "100" and it only dropped about 50 grains by weight....I have never actually tried setting the measure with the graduations on it, I assumed they were "grains bulk of BP"...maybe not. So then I switched over to the RCBS uniflow which had the small drum in it, and as I suspected the small drum is too small. So I put the big drum in and everything worked great from there. I weighed every charge I threw and all were within .2 of a grain total variation.


Bill

[Willbird]

The load I settled on was the 120 grain equiv with the barnes 290 tmz

Velocity/energy/trajectory look like this


Distance Velocity/energy Point of impact

Muzzle 2011fps/2605 ft lbs of energy
75 yards 1777fps/2034 ft lbs of energy 0.0 poi
150 yards 1564fps/1575 ft lbs of energy -4.7" poi
200 yards 1435fps/1326 ft lbs of energy -12.2" poi


I use 75 yards as a sight in distance because it a far easier distance to shoot on my backyard range than say 100 yards.

[StarMetal]

Well Will, Randy Wakeman said he was a confirmed 777 shooter until BH209 came along. Seems like you're finding out most the stuff out there about it is pretty much dead on. There's no doubt it's way better then the Hodgdon stuff. So it boils down to whether you're a traditionalist or not in using it over BP. Seems they have finally come out with something that truly is a smokeless not have to clean BP sub. Too bad the stuff cost an arm and a leg though.

Joe

[Willbird]

Yes I agree no surprises, but I like to know exactly how fast the bullets really come out of the end :-). The stuff does not cost as much as pellets....and people bend over to buy THOSE all the time :-).

I like BP for fin shooting, my first handgun was a Ruger Old army....but the Omega is for making meat :-)...maybe someday I will have gotten enough deer that I will have a hankering to use a #11 cap and a patched round ball to harvest them, in that case I will use BP.

Bill

[StarMetal]

Yes I agree no surprises, but I like to know exactly how fast the bullets really come out of the end :-). The stuff does not cost as much as pellets....and people bend over to buy THOSE all the time :-).

I like BP for fin shooting, my first handgun was a Ruger Old army....but the Omega is for making meat :-)...maybe someday I will have gotten enough deer that I will have a hankering to use a #11 cap and a patched round ball to harvest them, in that case I will use BP.

Bill

Maybe other powder manufacturers will follow suit. You don't hear much about IMR's White Powder. Have you?

Joe

[Underclocked]

Did you thoroughly clean your breech plug afterwards? Use a drill bit?

[StarMetal]

Did you thoroughly clean your breech plug afterwards? Use a drill bit?


Why? It's non corrosive and not hygroscopic.

Joe

[BCall]

I have been using BH209 for the last year in my CVA Optima Elite. I have been very pleased with the results. I am now using the Hornady 350 gr FPB over 95 gr volume charge of BH209. This is an average size group I have been shooting at 100 meters. Right at 1-1/4". FWIW, the powder may be non-corrosive and non-hygroscopic, but it and the combination of standard shotgun primers in my experience will foul a breech plug severly. I have had to use a drill bit on one occassion to clean the hard fouling out of the channel in the plug. Never had ignition problems, but I could very well see it happening if the breech plug was not cleaned well.
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh259/blcall/SN850632.jpg

[Underclocked]

Yep, if you use it be prepared to thoroughly clean the flame channel below the primer cup. In most US made rifles, the channel will accept a 1/8" bit and in Spanish made use a 3/32" or 3mm if you have one. Soak with a good solvent such as Hoppes then use the bit to clean it out, either hand turning or perhaps using a small portable screw driver to do the work.

Mandatory.

ps: clean your rifle anyway.

[Underclocked]

StarMetal, you might want to read this thread http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=2770&page=1

Please read the whole of the thread and then form your own opinion as to whether you should be concerned about the possiblity of corrosion after using BH209.

[StarMetal]

StarMetal, you might want to read this thread http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=2770&page=1

Please read the whole of the thread and then form your own opinion as to whether you should be concerned about the possiblity of corrosion after using BH209.

Thanks...I'll check that out and read all of it and report my opinion then.

Joe

[StarMetal]

underclocked,

I read that whole forum posting on the BH209. He's my conclusion. I'm not a big fan of Randy Wakeman, I don't mean I dislike him, just saying I'm neutral, I do like lots of his work...but like he said any propellant can be corrosive. I've seen rifles shot only with modern smokeless powders that were not cleaned and set for quite some time with a a white powder looking surface covering in their bores. So something is going on. Now Randy best described 777, it's not corrosive in the fact that burning it creates anything that will start to eat away at your barrel, but rather the ash it leaves is hygroscopic and attracts moisture like a bandit. Apparently BH209 is not as bad as 777 but may leave an ash that can attract moisture. As for their statement not to clean with water, I don't have an explanation for. I don't use water to clean anything except BP, it's subs, and after corrosive ammo in centerfire rifles. I would never use water to clean my modern rifle that I fired modern new ammo from. Now as to why the gentlemans barrel rusted badly after BH209 use I don't know and won't say until he has had a polygraph test and his home is thoroughly tested for moisture content including his gun safe. In other words I feel he's not telling the whole truth.

I still that if BH209 was cheaper that it would be a great sub.

Joe

[jh45gun]

I am to the conclusion that ANY black powder sub is some what either corrosive or hygroscopic take your pick either can affect your gun with out good cleaning so if you got to clean I just use the Holy Black, cheaper and accurate.

[Willbird]

Actually the last BP I bought was just as expensive as 777 :-), and dfeinately more expensive than buying 777 AFTER deer season when walmart puts it on close out at $15 per container.

The flash hole on my appears to be a two dia affair, the bigger hole is about a #45 drill...and the smaller dia up by the powder channel has never appeared blocked so I never ran anything through it. I only just ran a drill up in the larger hole yesterday....it did not NEED it per se....I got nothing much out of there.

The fouling in the bowl shaped cavity in my Omega breech plug after 30 rounds I would describe as slightly pebbly in appearance, and maybe .01" to .015" thick...even in appearance...it was surely not a problem. I would expect to see far more "stuff" after one shot of 777.

I have never fired a single round of BP in my Omega rifle since it was new, I did not buy it for that really. I do keep BP around just because I like to have 2-3 lbs around.....honestly I would rather have 25 or 50 pounds around...but $$ does not permit that at present.

I know Chad Cleland, since he was a little kid actually, he has won the bp nationals almost every year at perry, and he shoots for TC, I think he shoots a few rounds of BP every day....anyway he told me they used to buy GOEX in a BULK box...it just had 25 lbs of powder in the box

Bill

[mooman76]

I just clean mine after shooting. Not that big a deal. It is nice though to be able to leave it if you know you are going to shoot it again sometime soon.

[Underclocked]

How big is a #45 drill in inches (off the top of your head)? .082" - I looked it up. That channel will accept a 1/8" bit - you likely haven't got the carbon out yet. Trust me on this one guys, if you do not clean that channel thoroughly on a regular basis - you WILL start encountering misfires and hangfires as the channel will almost completely fill with hard carbon deposit.

Willbird, if you can compare your cleaned plug to a new one, please do so.

[StarMetal]

How big is a #45 drill in inches (off the top of your head)? .082" - I looked it up. That channel will accept a 1/8" bit - you likely haven't got the carbon out yet. Trust me on this one guys, if you do not clean that channel thoroughly on a regular basis - you WILL start encountering misfires and hangfires as the channel will almost completely fill with hard carbon deposit.

Willbird, if you can compare your cleaned plug to a new one, please do so.

Clock,

My Black Diamond TC inline with the 209 nipple in has a really really small hole. It's probably not a lot bigger then my mig welder wire of .030.

Joe

[Willbird]

How big is a #45 drill in inches (off the top of your head)? .082" - I looked it up. That channel will accept a 1/8" bit - you likely haven't got the carbon out yet. Trust me on this one guys, if you do not clean that channel thoroughly on a regular basis - you WILL start encountering misfires and hangfires as the channel will almost completely fill with hard carbon deposit.

Willbird, if you can compare your cleaned plug to a new one, please do so.

being a machinist I have a "feel" for things, and the next size larger drill bit would have been removing metal :-). There is a chamber around the bottom of the 209 pocket that has a 118 degree drill bit angle, even that chamfer is not 1/8" dia.....and I shaved that down to bare metal.

CVA "stuff" may be different, but a 1/8" flash hole in a 209 muzzle loader would really surprise me. I do not have a new plug for my Omega.

Bill

[StarMetal]

being a machinist I have a "feel" for things, and the next size larger drill bit would have been removing metal :-). There is a chamber around the bottom of the 209 pocket that has a 118 degree drill bit angle, even that chamfer is not 1/8" dia.....and I shaved that down to bare metal.

CVA "stuff" may be different, but a 1/8" flash hole in a 209 muzzle loader would really surprise me. I do not have a new plug for my Omega.

Bill

I'd be afraid to shoot an up to snuff load with a muzzler loader that's nipple has a 1/8th inch hole for the 209 primer.

Joe

[Willbird]

I'd be afraid to shoot an up to snuff load with a muzzler loader that's nipple has a 1/8th inch hole for the 209 primer.

Joe

Well my BP cannon has a 1/8 touch hole for cannon fuse, and a LOT of gas comes out of that hole :-).

Bill

[StarMetal]

Well my BP cannon has a 1/8 touch hole for cannon fuse, and a LOT of gas comes out of that hole :-).

Bill

True...but you're not holding that near your face either.

Joe

[mooman76]

Well my BP cannon has a 1/8 touch hole for cannon fuse, and a LOT of gas comes out of that hole :-).

Bill

Sure but are you sticking your face down by the touch hole when you light it?

[Willbird]

True...but you're not holding that near your face either.

Joe

I'm not saying it is a good thing, or in any way endorsing using one, just commenting that an 1/8 flash holes allows a lot of gas out.

[frontier gander]

by 1/8" hole in the Breech plug i do believe hes talking about the hole that the primers SITS inside of.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/CVA%20Accura/Accura-3004.jpg

[Willbird]

Nope, that is clearly bigger than 1/8" :-).

Bill

[StarMetal]

Nope, that is clearly bigger than 1/8" :-).

Bill

Bill,

I'm a little confused about what 1/8 in hole he's talking about. A 209 primer clearly is much much larger then that.

Joe

[Willbird]

Bill,

I'm a little confused about what 1/8 in hole he's talking about. A 209 primer clearly is much much larger then that.

Joe

I'm guessing that the 1/8 hole is in maybe a CVA rifle ?? And it's flash passage is 1/8" for most of the way, and tiny at the end the same way most are. However in my rifle the larger portion is clearly not 1/8"....it is smaller...

Bill

[Underclocked]

NO! The hole is actually smaller on a CVA (3mm vs 1/8"). Look down at the primer pocket ... see the hole that is just below the primer pocket which is the channel that leads toward the tiny hole at the nose of the plug. THAT is the channel I'm referring to and you guys are stubborn as rocks. ;)

Last I knew the channel I refer to and the plug for an Omega is identical to the one used on a standard Encore.

http://i47.tinypic.com/fvwfac.jpg

Does that look like your plug?

[StarMetal]

NO! The hole is actually smaller on a CVA (3mm vs 1/8"). Look down at the primer pocket ... see the hole that is just below the primer pocket which is the channel that leads toward the tiny hole at the nose of the plug. THAT is the channel I'm referring to and you guys are stubborn as rocks. ;)

Last I knew the channel I refer to and the plug for an Omega is identical to the one used on a standard Encore.

http://i47.tinypic.com/fvwfac.jpg

Does that look like your plug?


That's what I was figuring you meant. On my Black Diamond that channel doesn't get fouled. I must have some doggone crazy 777. Mine shoots very clean and the fouling, ash, whatever you want to call it, is dry.

Joe

[Underclocked]

I would say Willbird's is clogged so bad he THINKS he's hitting metal.

[Underclocked]

StarMetal, using 777 your plug will not foul as bad and if you do a water rinse - what is there will just rinse out unless it might be a bit of stubborn stuff from a dirty primer. A person should fit a drill bit to every new plug he gets so he KNOWS what size it is. Sometimes that carbon fouling looks just like the metal around it to the unassisted eye.

[Willbird]

I would say Willbird's is clogged so bad he THINKS he's hitting metal.


Well guess what :-) ??.

I Willbird am full of it as it turns out. I got a bit more aggressive with a .120 dia drill and lo and behold there IS a hole there that will actually accept a .128 drill bit. I had to fire shot #2 in my "fire a shot a day for 3-5 days" experiment before I did so... didn't want to be digging around in there with a drill bit with the gun loaded. So we will see tomorrow if shot #3 hits in the group, or I need to start over.

Some of the claimed benefit of the breech plugs machined for 25 acp cases, or even cut down 6mm rem cases (these use a large primer) is preventing the primer flash from lifting the sabot before the power lights....opening that hole back up to 1/8" may offer a bit more volume in the passage, and could possibly shrink groups.


Here is a link top an article that talks about the altered case 6mm rem breech plug
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/FineTuning2.html


Bill

[Willbird]

Here are the first two days shots, if the group formed by the third is over on the left I am going to move right the appropriate amount and shoot another 3 shot group 1 per day on a new target. There is a 2 day day deer gun season next weekend :-).

These two shots were fired from a gun which had a bore condition of being fired with 1 fouling shot after cleaning.

[Underclocked]

:) Just glad you you got 'er done. What range are you sighting her in at?

[Willbird]

75 yards, just because that is a really easy place to leave my bench set up in the backyard. And most shots where we hunt are 75-125 yards..........there is one possible place it might go to 200 yards and I have click ups for 200 taped on the side of the gun butt.

[Underclocked]

That one per day thing you are doing is a confidence builder but I don't know that it is any more telling than just shooting a group if you swab to a clean bore each time and let the barrel cool. With BH209, you might find nothing gained from swabbing until after several shots.

My new Apex rifle shoots pretty consistently from cold/clean to fouled. The below picture is two 3-shot groups overlaid, one fired Sept 29th and the other Nov 5th. The hole marked with the red 1 is a cold, clean barrel shot on the 5th. The 29th group was all fouled shots.

http://i36.tinypic.com/mj0oba.jpg

I think the benefits of the modified plugs with rifle primers compared to just using a 209 are mainly in containment of blowback in some rifles. To me, they are simply not worth the added expense and aggravation. Some of the powders used in muzzleloaders are very unfriendly to cases. Besides, if a gun will fire sub-moa groups with 209s - the lifting of bullets from the charge must be pretty much a non-factor.

Blackhorn requires a full strength 209 to ignite reliably so there would be a big negative for you if you plan to continue using it in that rifle. The Win 209A primers that I use are just about minimum for BH209 - the CCI209M, Fed 209A, and Cheddites are all more potent than the the Winchesters.

ps: 100 yard groups

[StarMetal]

That one per day thing you are doing is a confidence builder but I don't know that it is any more telling than just shooting a group if you swab to a clean bore each time and let the barrel cool. With BH209, you might find nothing gained from swabbing until after several shots.

My new Apex rifle shoots pretty consistently from cold/clean to fouled. The below picture is two 3-shot groups overlaid, one fired Sept 29th and the other Nov 5th. The hole marked with the red 1 is a cold, clean barrel shot on the 5th. The 29th group was all fouled shots.

http://i36.tinypic.com/mj0oba.jpg

I think the benefits of the modified plugs with rifle primers compared to just using a 209 are mainly in containment of blowback in some rifles. To me, they are simply not worth the added expense and aggravation. Some of the powders used in muzzleloaders are very unfriendly to cases. Besides, if a gun will fire sub-moa groups with 209s - the lifting of bullets from the charge must be pretty much a non-factor.

Blackhorn requires a full strength 209 to ignite reliably so there would be a big negative for you if you plan to continue using it in that rifle. The Win 209A primers that I use are just about minimum for BH209 - the CCI209M, Fed 209A, and Cheddites are all more potent than the the Winchesters.

ps: 100 yard groups

Clock,

I'm sure you've read that article were I forget who tested the strength of various brand 209 primers. He stumbled upon it by accident. He was shooting a target 36 caliber with patched ball and it was 209 primed. He forgot to load the powder and just primed it and shot and hit the 100 yard target. So a light went on in his head how to test 209 primers. He had his chrono set up and began testing. I forget the velocity he got with just the primer but more interesting was he shot a pretty decent group. End of story is that there was a pretty wide variance between 209 brands.

I shoot loose powder and Maxi-Balls so I don't worry about the 209 moving the sabot.

Joe

[Willbird]

Well I had a real need to isolate something with the "1 per day" experiement. The gun shoots about 2" high from a bore freshly cleaned with shooters choice then dry patched than it does from a fouled bore.

So the question was is the 2" high shot from the bore condition, or is it something the rifle does even from a fouled bore.....the first two shots seem to indicate that it is from the clean bore condition.

Also when doing crono I noticed the first shot from a clean dry bore after cleaning out 777 residue (water followed by rubbing alcohol) was 75 fps higher than the next 3 shots.

So my gun apparently does some "interesting" things with the BH209 from a completely clean bore. That is not unusual.......I would expect it in any smokeless firearm.....but 777 seems to be an exception to that general rule....first shot from a clean dry bore is usually in the group.

I have not been able to get any sub moa groups YET, but I have only worked extensively with the barnes spitfire TMZ's.

I am using WW 209 primers, all I could get in fact. NO hang fires of any kind with them in 30 shots so far.

The writer in the article says he also got a good consistent light off with the large rifle magnum primers.

I would not pay $60 for a breech plug for the cut down 308 cases (they say 6mm...but most of that stuff is the same) but I might just MAKE a breechplug to try :-) after deer season is over. 209's are just something I do not use at ALL.....only in the ML rifle.

My sabots do not just fall down the bbl either........the barnes bullet and sabot is a tight fit.

[Underclocked]

Toby Bridges did that test StarMetal refers to http://hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical3.html

Pretty interesting read. Toby does come up with some good info on occasion. :)

Some people equate tight fit to accuracy and I suppose that is true - within limits. One that requires me to strain my arm to get the load seated just isn't going to be used. Distortion of the bulllet can become a real factor. The above load in my Apex using the Harvester CRs and Speer .451 is snug but goes down smooth and even with only moderate pressure on the rod.

I guess the White Rifles spoiled me so far as ever using truly tight loads.

And it is fun to tinker on the cheap... more power to ya!

[Willbird]

Actually I want to try these hornady bullets next, same BC as the bullets with sabots, but no sabots needed. But that will be after ML season is over in mid january.

http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-300-gr-FPB/

He does say in the article you posted that the BH209 seems to prevent primer pressure from moving the powder and projectile forward before ignition....maybe due to the large amount of air space that is present in a loaded "round" of powder/bullet ?

Bill

[frontier gander]

UC i wish you'd post some good pics of what the Accura's can do. [smilie=l:

300gr xtp, 120gr RS (88 weight) mmp-24 sabot, cci inline mzl primers.

3 shots @ 100 yards, No swabbing between shots, zero cool down.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/XTP120grRS003.jpg

250gr Thor conicals, 105gr Pyro RS, Winchester 777 primers. 3 shots, 100 yards, a few minutes cool down time between each shot.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Thor%20Bullets/250gr%20Ballistic%20Tip/Accura250grBT004.jpg
Outside to outside,
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Thor%20Bullets/250gr%20Ballistic%20Tip/Accura250grBT006.jpg

My brother in law with his first Inline Mzl buck he shot at 175 yards with the Thor load above.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Thor%20Bullets/JohnMLdeer004.jpg

[StarMetal]

That's dang nice shooting and nice buck you got there. I'm impressed with your group.

Joe

[Underclocked]

Why should I? ;) You covered it pretty well. Now stop shining that steel with Flitz. Use a dull wax. No wonder your rifle glows in the dark. ;)

[frontier gander]

LMAO. But it looks purdy!

[Willbird]

OK well MY group is not nearly as pretty, but it is fired 1 shot per day over 3 days. Based on where the nearly 4" group is centered I moved 2.5 moa right, and will fire 3 more shots over the next 3 days.

4" at 75 yards is sure nothing to brag on :-). BUT I did ream out the carbon in the breech plug between shots 2 and 3, so that gives me an out ;-).

Bill

[Willbird]

Those Thor conicals look cool, have you found any BC information for them ??

Bill

[Underclocked]

I think Thor will still send you a sample pack of the .50s they offer so you can find out which one fits your bore the best.

http://www.thorbullets.com/Home_Page.html The BC should be roughly the same as for the parent Barnes bullet.

I've learned not to concern myself with BC in a muzzleloader. Most shots will certainly be under 100 yards in most areas of the country... and at that range, BC just doesn't really matter. Expansion/performance on deer and accuracy are my concerns.

I also like to be able to blow tree limbs off on occasion. ;)

Willbird, are you thoroughly cleaning the rifle between those daily shoots? I would do that then get all the oil out of the bore with alcohol patches followed by a few dry patches before loading. A blast of dry air from a compressor wouldn't hurt either. Be totally consistent on your powder charge (weigh them if need be) and do everything the exact same way each time. The other thing I would be leery of is whether that bullet/sabot might be TOO tight and you are winding up with uneven seating pressure.

I think both you and the rifle can do much better.

[Willbird]

NO I am not cleaning the gun between shots. It shoots about 2" high at 75 yards from a clean dry bore, that is no good for hunting if I need to field reload :-).

Thor did say they would send me some sample bullets.

I know the rifle and I can do better just setting down to shoot groups.....typically they run about 1.25 to 1.5 inches for either 3 or 5 shot groups at 75 yards, BUT that is a different exercise than simply walking outside with the gun you loaded the day before, and setting down at the bench and carefully firing ONE shot :-).

The wind could be blowing completely different directions each day for one thing. I know that the bullet I am using will drift 1.3" at 75 yards in a 10mph wind, so that could open up a group spaced over several days by 3" or even more.

Thor also replied back and said the BC for the 250 grain is .220, and the 300 grain is .200, which is not the same as the Barnes spitfire TMZ I use now. It is a decent BC number but different than the hornady bullets where the heavier bullet has a higher BC.

Hornady 350 interlock FPB has a BC of .285
Hornady 300 interlock FPB has a BC of .245

I like to look at what bullets do downrange, and to me it does not matter if that means 50 yards or 500....my goal is always to get the most energy on target, and ideally the least amount of wind drift possible.................the RANGE to the target can be measured pretty close.....the WIND however is a fickle thing that is a real bear to get a handle on.

To me a HUNTING muzzle loader will not be cleaned in the field between shots.

Bill

[Willbird]

OK I shot (3) shots today, one that was loaded since yesterday, and 2 more about as quickly as I could load, it was COLD out there. I dry fired the first shot by accident (forgot to prime) and everything looked great, no flinch or jump to the crosshairs.

The first shot is the one in the center, the next two are the ones about 1/4" apart for a total group of 1.5" at 75 yards.

As a refresher the load is 84 grains of BH209 (120 grain equiv), a Barnes 290 grain spitfire tmz bullet/sabot, and a WW 209 primer. This combo has a measured muzzle velocity of 2011 fps.

Also for the sake of clarity, when I spoke of the sabots being tight.........I can seat them by gripping the ramrod itself with both hands, I'm not having to DRIVE them down in there :-).

I'm getting low on BH209 powder now...there is about 50 shots in a can and I generally carry about 10 quick reloaders on my person and in my fanny pack I take with me. So I do not have a lot of powder left to spare.

Bill

[Willbird]

I always use the TC quick shot reloaders before, but I just got two

4-N-1 Quickshot™- Cat. No. 7057

and I really like them so far.

Mine are black, not red in color.

Bill

[Underclocked]

I've got some of those red ones. I developed a talent for pinching that fold of skin between my thumb and index finger when using the built in short starter. ;)

On mine, the cap keeps wanting to come loose. So I just carry powder in some 7ml capped vials and a couple of bullets in another vial. I don't believe there is such a thing as "Speed Loading" in my muzzleloading world and I often advise folks to throw the entire contents of the first speed loader on the ground as it has a calming effect. ;)

But will you start your hunt with a cold, clean bore or with a fouled bore??

[Willbird]

I will start my hunt with a cold fouled bore if using BH209.

If I were to use 777 I would start my hunt with a bore cleaned with water, followed with 92% ispopropyl alcohol (clean and dry).

Once we get past hunting season I am going to experiment with bore conditions to try to find one for BH209 that can be artificially reproduced to drop a shot more in the group. It might be just as simple as popping 2-3 caps after cleaning. Also the THor bullets having no sabots may behave differently.

I agree there is no "speed loading" :-).

The first year I hunted ML I shot at a moving small doe or button that was honestly coming right at me (south park reference), missed it, reloaded....but could not get the fired 209 out to recap the gun......and got to watch some nice bucks play in the creek 50 yards away then leave....

So now I carry one of the CVA metal primer "forks" around my neck on a length of paracord :-). Well taped with electrical tape so it doesn't not make a metal on metal "tink"

So far all of my quick loads still hold a primer....but I carry about 10 spares in a polaroid 35mm film can partially filled with TP.

It just struck me the other day that some day those film cans will not be very plentiful at all.........more and more folks going to digital

[Underclocked]

Those tubes are pretty cheap and you can carry them in a shotshell box. Work great for carrying premeasured loads to the range - and for carrying a few in your pocket while hunting.

LaneNebraska sells 5ml and 10ml tubes with various colored caps. It's better to contact him directly rather than buy from him off eBay. He'll make you a better price as a forum user. He posts at MM, HuntingNet, and a few others.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/hunting-gear/262982-wts-black-powder-storage-tubes.html

Or you can just buy some yourself from any number of places. I prefer 7ml tubes as they fit well in shotgun shell plastic boxes (12 gauge), they hold ~110 grains volumetric of powder, hold a couple of sabot'd bullets, and fit in butt stock shell holders. Besides, I started the tube craze by ordering 2000 of the 7ml for myself and a bunch of guys over on the Hunt America forums a few years back. I've still got quite a few left of my share.

I carry my primers in a Tedd Cash straight-line 209 primer holder. Works well with any muzzleloader that uses 209s so far as I can tell.

Here's a good source for tubes of many sizes http://www.testtubesonline.com/7ml_Secure_Vial_Cap_Bulk_p/428-0001w.htm I linked to the 7ml.

[Willbird]

I have a fair collection of 58 caliber "caplugs" that I got from a guy with a 58 caliber muzzle loader, same deal, they fit in shotgun shell boxes nicely, you plug them with the minie bullet.

Those are some decent looking tubes.

Some of the BR shooters used to use GLASS tubes with screw on lids.

I once knew a lady who worked at a place that made 2 liter soda bottles, all those types of bottles start out like then, then they are blown out bigger

http://www.testtubesonline.com/Baby_Soda_Btls_Giant_Test_Tubes_p/207-0037w.htm

[Willbird]

The 10oz bottle of BH209 I have been using was purchased at Cabelas in Dundee, MI. It was $29.95......which I did not consider HORRIBLE price when both powder valley or Grafs wants 26.95 plus hazmat and shipping.

Well we stopped in to Basspro in Rossford, OH last night.....HOLY COW they have their BH209 marked at 44.95 per bottle :-(. I had a $25 gift card for basspro that I spent on some other stuff.

Even the 4 in 1 loaders were outragously priced at Basspro, $15 instead of $10 at Cabelas.....

I will pay a little more for "gimme now"...which the 4 in ones can be had online for $7 or $8...


Bill

[Underclocked]

Bass Pro is best left to fishermen.

Check Powder Valley, Inc for the BH209. A buddy and I just splt 10 bottles of BH209 and a 1000 Cheddite 209 primers. Total for all was just under 301 with HAZMAT and shipping to Mo.

Still horrible, but not the torture you would get at Bass Pro.

[Willbird]

Yup that is a future plan for sure. 1000 primers will last awile :-).

I am thinking about getting a limbsaver pre fit recoil pad for the Omega....that thing just plain KICKS :-). Took a shot at a coyote Sunday morning about sunup but missed him, he was 150 yards out....he was loping across the field....I whistled at him and he stopped long enough for me to take a shot.....bet he never makes that mistake again ;-).

Bill

[Underclocked]

I bought either 3 or 4 of those Omega rifles shortly after they first came out. A couple were for friends and one of those friends still has his and likes it. The one I chose for myself was just the plain-jane synthetic and stainless model. The rifle fit me so badly and that trigger guard was so tiny that my shoulder, jaw, and trigger hand all took a beating. Ordered a Simms pad and it just plain didn't fit. Simms was no help either. Wound up getting rid of all of them and can't say I've regretted that decision.

I've got a G2 Contender in .45. That little rifle also kicks like a mule but a Simms pad did fit reasonably well and tamed it down enough to be tolerable. I still don't go beyond a 275 grain bullet with moderate charges. Pretty fond of that little rifle even if it has tortured me some. :)

[Willbird]

The absolute worst gun I have ever fired as far as recoil goes is my Savage 24v 222/20 gauge firing slugs in the 20 gauge barrel, it will bring tears to your eyes after a half dozen rounds, and I enjoy shooting 375 H&H and even a few 458's I have fired....

The savage is so brutal because that lower shotgun bbl has it's bore centerline so low, the 20 gauge is so bad I simply cannot imagine what the 12 gauge must be like. it is about 2x worse than a 12 gauge pump gun with slugs.

The Omega ain't THAT bad.

I do not think that breaking the gun in half to reprime is an improvement.

My brother in law has an Encore with the pro hunter stock....it is not bad to shoot the few times I have fired it.

Bill

[Willbird]

OK for the record the limbsaver recoil pad sold for the Omega/encore/black diamond fit my rifle perfectly. I have the black plastic stock.

[John Boy]

Why? It's non corrosive and not hygroscopic.
Joe, about the non corrosive statement ... you and others might want to download and read the whole article (with spectrograph chemical analysis determinations) about BH 209


"Haag's findings were that Blackhorn 209, while basically nitrocellulose contained inclusions of potassium nitrite and sulphur, which may create potassium sulphate, possibly sulphur trioxide, or dioxide combining with water in the air form sulfuric acid. He concluded that there is potassium nitrite and elemental sulphur embedded in what is basically a nitrocellulose product"
(Bold - Underline Emphasis added)
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6150.0;

[Willbird]

I wonder if yet again they saddled us with "extra" stuff in an analog powder just for the sake of making SMOKE, that is supposedly why pyrodex is corrosive, or whatever the heck it is that ruins steel that is fouled with it and left uncleaned.

If would be interesting to to the clean nail test with BH209.

I took my Christmas money and bought (3) more 10oz bottles of the stuff(BH209) today...

Note this line from the article at the link above..........

"This thread stuck in my mind as it worked its way into past hisory.

Now this Blackhorn209 s modified smokeless powder made in Cnada.

Today I went into the ITS Dataweb.

In the year 2008 the U.S. imported 5,785,080 pounds of propellant powders from Canada with a total value of
$40,304,588.
This most likely represents both military and civilian use powders. And all of that came out of two plants in Canada.

E. Ogre"

if you do the math that is a VALUE of $8 per lb...............right ??

Bill

[jmail117]

Willbird,

I have been shooting BH209 now for 2 years and Love it for multiple reasons.

I have also noticed a change in velocity after about 3 shots. I was shooting 100 grns. of BH209 with 250 grn shockwave bullets & Winchester W209 primers. I noticed a slow drop of velocity of about 100 fps at 10 rounds.

I then started running one dry patch down the barrel after each shot and the velocity did not drop after 15 shots. I leave 5 minutes between shots to cool the barrel.

I have gotten several groups right at the 1" mark with this combo.

My buddy and I have killed 9 deer in the past 2 years with this load and not lost deer. My last kill in Dec. was 160 yards and dropped her instantly.

I'm shooting the Omega and my buddy shoots the Triumph.

I just got done working up a load of 110 grn. BH209 with a 300 grn harvester gold bullet that shoots real well. I could only shoot 50 yards last time I went to the range because of fog but shot 2 groups 3 shot under .70" and one right at .405 center to center. I hope to us it on deer this week end.

I also chrono and document all my range visits and I will keep you posted on our progress when the weather breaks. We shoot allot and I love to test stuff!



OK as I said on another thread I got ahold of some Blackhorn 209 powder to try in my TC Omeag rifle.

The TC Omega has a 28" long barrel, with a 1/28 twist.

I set up my crono with the start screen 20 feet from the muzzle, then used an online ballistics program to correct the measured velocity back to actual muzzle velocity. There is a link below to that program...

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.0.cgi

Barnes Spitfire TMZ 250 grain (.221 BC)

70 grains of BH-209 equal to 100 grains volume measure
1851 fps muzzle velocity

77 grains equal to 110 grains volume measure
1985 fps muzzle velocity

84 grains equal to 120 grains volume measure
2053 fps muzzle velocity

Barnes Spitfire TMZ 290 grain (.241 BC)

70 grains of BH-209 equal to 100 grains volume measure
1802 fps muzzle velocity

77 grains equal to 110 grains volume measure
1924 fps muzzle velocity

84 grains equal to 120 grains volume measure
2011 fps muzzle velocity

I had not tested the 290 grain bullets before, reading on the internet told me they are really best suited to 1/24 twist barrels, but some 1/28 barrels will work with them, and apparently mine is one of them because they shoot just as good as the 250's.



I also fired one round with a hornady 180 grain bullet/sabot....I had bought those with the idea of using the Omega to pop a woodchucl or two for some off season practice, and it did not seem that I needed 250 to 300 grain bullets for woodchucks. They were the lightest bullet/sabot I could find for a 50 caliber mz....never got around to doing anything with them yet...

Hornady 180 grain 44 caliber XTP (.138 BC)

84 grains of BH209 equal to 120 grains by volume
2166 fps


Overall I am quite pleased with the BH209 powder.....I did not get any "magic" 3/4" groups as some have reported.....BUT I was able to get roughly the same groups with 120 grains equiv as with 100 grains equiv.......which is better than what I have seen with 777 powder....accuracy goes to hell with 777 in my gun past 100 grains of powder.

3 and 5 shot groups were running 1.5" or so at 75 yards, that is using a 3x9 Nikon Omega scope set on 9x.

Personally I think some of the accuracy results may not be nearly as good as the gun will actually shoot......it probably takes a better man than I at the bench to wring tiny groups out of a 7lb rifle that is generating 2600 ft lbs of energy :-).

I fired a total of 30 shots with no cleaning at all, every bullet/sabot seated about like the first and second one did. The breech plug was about as easy to remove as after 1-2 shots of 777 powder....there was a small amount of residue built up in the powder chamber of the breech plug, easily removed with shooters choice.

The bore cleaned up with 4-5 wet patches with shooters choice, followed by a couple dry patches.



I did notice one thing worthy of mention......the FIRST shot I fired from a clean bore with 100 grains by volume BH209 behind a 250 grain bullet/sabot cronoed 75 fps faster than the next three shots...all shots measured at 20 feet uncorrected......
1905
1829
1827
1826

Also after cleaning, and reloading with the 120 grains by volume charge with the 290 grain bullet the first shot the gun shot about 2" high at 75 yards............so it looks like a fouling shot will be needed after cleaning the gun..................not unusual at all....just different than 777 which seems to drop the first shot from a clean bore into the group.

I'm going to do some work next week with the fouled gun....shooting one shot per day at the same target.....that is closer to actual deer hunting than 1 shot every 3-5 minutes testing loads and bullets.

I tried my Lyman 55 measure first with the BH209, and I set the big slide on "100" and it only dropped about 50 grains by weight....I have never actually tried setting the measure with the graduations on it, I assumed they were "grains bulk of BP"...maybe not. So then I switched over to the RCBS uniflow which had the small drum in it, and as I suspected the small drum is too small. So I put the big drum in and everything worked great from there. I weighed every charge I threw and all were within .2 of a grain total variation.


Bill

[buckweet]

Yes I agree no surprises, but I like to know exactly how fast the bullets really come out of the end :-). The stuff does not cost as much as pellets....and people bend over to buy THOSE all the time :-).

I like BP for fin shooting, my first handgun was a Ruger Old army....but the Omega is for making meat :-)...maybe someday I will have gotten enough deer that I will have a hankering to use a #11 cap and a patched round ball to harvest them, in that case I will use BP.

Bill




now yer talkin !!! patched round ball's !!!

go for it !

you'll be a happy man.:mrgreen: