Barrel LEADING

[Ghostail]

I bought a Pedersoli Sharps a few months back in 45-90 with a 34" barrel. I have tried various bullets with SPG lube in 20 to1 and 30 to 1, but I keep getting leading in the last few inches of the barrel. I am only using in the 75 grs. range of goex 2f powder, so I'm keeping in the 1200-1300 fps. I also do not get a lube star at the muzzle. Is there a bullet mold that holds more lube than norm? Is there better lube than SPG for this problem? The Sharps shoots very well for about the first five rounds after cleaning and then starts to degrade do to the leading. Open to any ideas that would help.

[Buckshot]

.................I don't think you'll find too many 34" barreled rifles competeing in the BPCR silhuette game. Them's as had'em now sport 30 or 32" tubes.

Two telltales here:

"..................leading in the last few inches of the barrel."
and
".................. I also do not get a lube star at the muzzle."

The problem with supplying a slug with more or deeper lube grooves is compromising the slugs' strength and also upsetting BC's, which more or deeper grooves can do. You can't very well add lube ahead of the slug, but you can behind it.

You could add a grease cookie but that may compromise your load as the powder charge would need to be reduced to accomodate it. Maybe you could go to a slug with a longer bore rider nose for seating further out. But then you give up some lube carrying capacity.

One way to defeat the entire issue is to use a paper patched boolit.

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

If it was so simple everyone would be doing it. It was common long ago but today's shooters have a couple issues with it. One it that it requires non-typical slugs, it's another time consuming operation, and finally and maybe most important, it is another variable. Does the patch release cleanly and the same every time? THAT is the question.

Most all major military powers used paper patched slugs in their day, but ultimate accuracy wasn't at issue. Useable accuracy and the ability to keep on firing was. If the answer was easy, there wouldn't have been so many modern guys cutting off that last 2-4" of barrel.

..................Buckshot

[martinibelgian]

Ghostail,
One question - do you blowtube between shots? If so, how much? What bullets are you using? What is your exact routine between shots? SPG should be good enough for the purpose, and the Pedersoli barrels are also quite good.

[omgb]

I have a Pedersoli 45-90 with the 34" barrel and I had, (note HAD) the same problem I solved it two ways. Both work but the second is the one I'm sticking with for other reasons. Solution 1: Swap to a lube called White Lightening. It costs the same as SPG but is only sold in 4 Lb lots. It works when nothing else will. It is the only lube that gives me a lube star and doesn't lead. Solution 2: put either 5 grains of 2400 or 6.5 grains of RL7 under 64.5 grains (by weight) of GOEX 2f or Ctg. Use a .030 wad and compress enough (with a compression die) to seat your bullet in the case and still be able to chamber. I have used both the Lyman Postell and an LBT bullet. The Lyman has large, deep square lube grooves. The LBT has shallow radiused groves. Both bullets work equally well. With solution #2 I don't need to blow tube and I can shoot 20 rounds without wiping and ZERO leading. Solution #1 requires a blow tube but you can still fire a 10-15 shot string without wiping. WL works so well that Dan Theodore, its inventor, uses grooveless bullets and dips his bullets. Only a thin film is on the bullet and yet, somehow it still works. So, there you have it. I discovered this after at least 500 rounds of testing and struggling. It works so well for me that I can almost guarantee it will work for you too.

[omgb]

Solution option #3: The bore pig. If you want to try this, it will work but, it is a bit of an extra step. Shoot your regular loads but after each shot, push a bore pig through the barrel. You can see how the pig is made. I dampen them in plain water (just damp is all) and push one through after each shot. The bore comes out clean as a whistle. Youwill need to make about 20 of them. I let them fall to the gound after I push them through. After shooting a string, I pick them up and plop them in a mason jar full of water. I shke the jar and then take out the pigs as I need them, shaking of the excess water as I go. Option #2 above is easir than the other two of course and works the best. But, it's not jake for official competition in the states. Option #1 is good but eventually youwill have to wipe and the bore pig is just the ticket for doing that. So, maybe option three is the best for you. Any way, there are my solutions. Good luck and let me know how yu work things out.

[44man]

I had the same problem with SPG in that the last 10" of barrel would be full of dry, hard fouling and I think that is what scrapes off lead. Even the blow tube did not help as the moisture dried so fast that the next shot could not push out the fouling. The stuff has to be pushed out between shots with a damp patch on a brush.
Dan's White Lightning works and goes to show that it is not the quantity of lube, but the quality that does the job.
SPG is way over rated, way overpriced and is pushed by certain writers that have a stake in the sales.
If you are going to shoot silhouette, duplex loads are not allowed.

[omgb]

I think too that unless I'm very mistaken, the 34" barrel was designed for the long range shooting out to 1,000 yrds and beyond. "Sillywet" shooters seem to prefer barrels in the 28-30" category. The longer barrels often put the shooter over the weight limit. Any how, what do I know about it? I do know though that WL really works.

[frank505]

Is there contact info for White Lighting bullet lube??

[powderburnerr]

goasttail .. if you are fouling with 2F try 1F you will see a big difference . you might also try slowing down the rate of fire and trying different primers .. your charge isnt balanced quite yet. .............Dean

[sundog]

I'd like to have the recipe. sundog

[omgb]

gentlemanjimproducts@msn.com Here is the source for White lightning lube. Drop him a line and he should respond.

Bore Pigs can be purchased but they are so easy to make that I never got an address. You need a nylon bore brush, a green Scotch scrubby pad, a rubber washer slightly larger than bore size and a small nut that will thread onto the back of the bore brush. using a wad punch, I cut a couple of disks out of the scrubby. These slip over the shank of the brush. Next, I slid on a rubber washer. These can be purchased in the faucet repair section of the hardware store. I bought my first units but later took that same 45 cal wad punch and banged them out of an old rubber sink liner. The whole mess is held on with the nut. Simple really. The scrubby holds enough water to wet the bore and it scrubs off the fouling. The washer squeegies it dry. I'll see who has the address for the Official Bore Pigs and see if I can get it to you all.

[Hackleback]

I was recomended to me to use an ox yoke felt wad dipped in SPG (or the lube of your choice) as a greese cookie. I have found them easy to load.

With that said, I have yet to find a cast load that shoots very well in my cheap Sharps reproduction. Best load so far is a Remington 405 J boolit with a modest load of H 4895 behind it.

[Ghostail]

omgb
Do you see a difference between the brass bore brush in your picture and the nylon bore brush in the instructions for making the bore pig. I have about a dozen brass brushes and was just wondering. I'm going to start making them up tonight. thanks

[44man]

Hey guys, do NOT use the green scotch brite pads. They have abrasive in them. You need plain pads with NO abrasive.

[omgb]

Brass brushes work fine, they just look nasty after one or two uses. I have some of each. As to the Scotchbright pad hurting the bore... I don't believe it. The steel in a modern rifle is pretty darn hard. While rubbing under a lot of pressure for an extended perios might produce some wear, I do not believe this will. Lots of guys are doing this including a large number of national competitors. I have been using them myself for almost a year and I have detected no wear at all. Some guys get all worked up about bronze brushes for the same reason. Again, I do not believe it will wear the bore in my life time. These scrubbie discs are cut at 45 cal. They just don't contact the bore enough to do much other than carry moisture. If it really troubles anyone, just use a plain ordinary sponge instead of a scrubby. It works almost as well. I have pigs made both ways and honestly can't tell much of a difference.

[44man]

The bore pigs that are sold do not have abrasive in them and I found Scotchbrite abrasive free pads. I would not want to push abrasives through my bore, the stuff is very aggresive. I remove blueing with it and polish steel on the lathe with it. It will remove scratches from stainless guns in short order.
If you figure you will push one through the bore as many as 60 times for a match (including practice) plus the non-match practice all year, how many strokes are you running down a fine barrel each year?
Scotchbrite pads come in a whole array of grits and some are strong enough to remove the rifling in short order.
You should see how fast the green stuff polishes, removes rust and some pits from a shotgun bore.
If you think it is OK for your rifle, it is fine with me, not my gun! Why not roll your boolits in abrasive?

[omgb]

Like I said, if you think it's a problem, use sponge.

[44man]

Felt will do a nice job.
Actually, a tinex bore brush with a damp patch on it is better then the Bore Pig. I have a set of them and I did not get the accuracy claimed. It was worse. Too hard to control the moisture in the chamber and barrel. They have to be washed when done with each relay and washed again when you get home.
If you make the rubber squeegee tight enough to wipe the bore, it is almost impossible to push through and if thin it will not wipe. In order to wipe, the rubber has to go to the bottom of the grooves.

[omgb]

Ah, a better idea yet. I can imagine that felt will work very well. Since going to WL lube though, I kinda abandoned all of the fallderal and just shoot. :)

[Ghostail]

Went to Home depot last night to pick up 8-32 brass nuts, 00 flat washers which were out of stock and scotchbright,which they don't carry. but picked up another brand of green scour pads thinking they are all made out of spun nylon or some such material. Then I saw 44man posting and sure enough the back of the pads package said "not recommended glassware or non stick coatings". Now glass is a pretty hard material, so why chance it. so off I go to Vons and there I found scotchbright. It comes in two types, one with the same warning as above and one that is nonscratch. Now I just have figure out how to drill a 1/8 hole in the center of the punched out scotchbright disk without drilling a hole in my finger.

[omgb]

I bought a punch set that included a 1/8" punch. I knocked out all of the parts with that and one in .45

[lovedogs]

Ghostail... the symptoms you describe tell the story of a lube that's not doing its job. That long barrel probably has something to do with it. But the SPG is not that good of a product, either. I switched from SPG and am using Glenn Larsen's (LAR45) 50/50 beeswax and alox now with complete satisfaction. I shoot a .45-70 with a 32 in. bbl. and get NO leading since switching to Glenn's lube. Give a look at www.lsstuff.com/lube Glenn's stuff works and is very reasonably priced. It's better than any commercial lube I've ever used before. If the 50/50 still doesn't make the trip you can blend in some of his black powder or carnauba lube into it easily enough. Good luck.

[Bigjohn]

omgb, The bore pigs are a great idea. I had come up with a slightly different idea for making them.
My plan was to have a section of wool felt in front of the brush and a disc of neoprene behind the brush. The wool felt was to carry the cleaning fluid, the brush would then scour the fouling and the neoprene would squeegee the barrel in one go. A jag could be modified to hold a patch as the bore pig was pushed through.

They would take some engineering but could be done. It is just a little beyond my abilities.

John.

[Ghostail]

lovedogs
I will try Glenn larsen's (LAR45) after I try white lightening. But I think some of the problem is getting (any) lube down to the last 2-4 inches, more or less I'm running out of gas. Thats why I was wondering if there was a bullet that carried more lube ( having a bigger gas tank). Yes,there is maybe a lube that works more efficently than others (like driving a four cylinder vs. v8) and that is why I'm willing to try different lubes, but it can become an expensive search. Thanks for your ideas.

[Ghostail]

I don't know if a bore pig will bypass the fact that I just don't have enough lube in the last 2-4 inches, but I will try it and see if it will cut out the search for a better lubes.

[powderburnerr]

goast tail : one other thing you might try is to season the barrel .If you degrease and then wipe dry you might need to do this .I put a dollop of lube on a patch and then mop the bore a few times . I then put lube on the bullet tips so it is on the bore before the bullet hits it I do this with 6 rounds and any leading issues dissapear. when cleaning I just use water . or at times windex with vinager diluted 4-1 and then dry and wipe with ballisto; . this doesnt change poi on the first round if you run 1 dry patch down bore before firing . I shoot my rifle almost daily so dont need to clean to bare metal every time like a lot do ,but if I do clean that deep I season the bore the next time..........Dean

[Springfield]

Type in "Big Lube Bullets" on e-bay and see what comes up. I use them but don't shoot over 200 yards, but it might help your problem. They sure hold more lube. There is a 385 grain and a 500 grain version out there. Never used the 500 grainer myself, never felt the need.

[martinibelgian]

I for one do believe that most often the issue is not the amount of lube, but the surface of lube in contact with the bore. Deep GG's and lots of lube won't help you, as most of the lube will still be on the bullet when it exists the barrel. Don't believe me? Just fire a few rounds over your chrony and check the skyscreens... Lube splatter everywhere. Most bullets will hold more than enough lube for several shots, but as only a small percentage is in contact with the bore, it is completely useless.
Forme, it rather is a fouling problem - and you still haven't told us what your between-shots routine is, very important too.
Dressing the bore with lube might make your problem disappear completely - or shortening your barrel...

[omgb]

The funny thing about WL lube is that it requires so little to do the job. Dan even tried plain, grooveless bullets dipped in WL and supposedly it worked without leading. I've never tried it but have no reason to doubt his results as incredible as they seems.

I do know however, that all of my 45 cal bullets work equally well and do not lead when using WL. Lyman deep square grooves or LBT shallow radiused grooves, they work equally well. Any way, that's my experience. I know I'm a happy camper and that's all I need.

[Ghostail]

I drink alot of water while shooting and blow 4-6 deep slow breathes through the blow tube. 4-6 breathes depending on the humidity here in San Diego and I can see the amount of condensation going through the tube. I try not to get any condensation in the barrel. I do see lube hit the chrony and skyscreen especially after shooting lube cookies, but have not shot them enough to know for sure if lube cookies solves the problem with leading and I would rather not have to. I have not tried dressing the bore with lube, its worth a try. I have white lightening on order, so we will see.

[Wayne Smith]

Drill the holes first, with the pad sandwitched between two pieces of wood. Then punch out around the hole.